LostinVan

Hehe, someone tell my ex that, please! 8) LostinVan

I hear what you're saying Beec, but there's something else too. Most days I'm on pins and needles... "is she coming over now!? is she leaving??". It ruins my day because if any slightest deviation from what I hope happens, I get sad. If I get her to clearly define that I live here, she doesn't, and by my good grace I let her use the house under certain conditions, I think I'd feel a lot better. But the trick is, how not to force her away too much. Sidenote: got a flurry of emails from her this afternoon. First one: "I think I've pretty much decide that I will be going to the trade show. I've already been adjusting my schedule to accommodate my absense, and because it's only for a few days, it'll be less of an impact. Not crazy about flying, driving... or anything like that,... but it IS one of the bigger shows." So GeeCee and Strong1 - you were right. In the next few weeks, I'm going to have to figure out how to play this one. I'll post some more details in a few days and solicit thoughts. This is a huge event... the show, that is. I will be in my best possible light at it too - a lot of people expect me, and a lot of bigwigs in this particular industry have already set up "meets" with me and such. In fact, my social calendar for the show (breakfasts, lunches, "beer" after each day's show, and dinners) are almost all booked up. For some reason though, I'm not excited at the moment that she's going. Second email said, in part: "apologies for not answering your other email... but I honestly didn't have a chance to... it was either spend time talking to you, or write you an email on Friday." and "And.. my sincerest apologies for crapping out on your shopping trip. I felt really bad about that, but I honestly didn't clue in this morning when we were talking. I know you were disappointed. " So, some redemption I'm not sure what to do next. Should I respond to them? Or just cool my jets till I see her next? Let me tell you what the old me would have done. I would have written her back and said "don't worry about the shopping trip - I was only as upset as you were the day before when your friend bailed on you and you complained to me about how rude it was..." But I don't think I'll do that this time around LostinVan

sigh, it's a bad day for me Beec. But wise words again. Okay, I'll make one resolution right now. Think about any major action for at least a day before doing it... I always see things differently the next day I know that... so now I gotta do it. Sending the SMS was good in my head, but now I'm slightly regretting it. I do want to set more defined boundries on my space and my privacy right now. I don't like the fact that I am a doormat when it comes to this house and her access. She comes and goes as she pleases, stays as long as she wants or as short as she wants. It's driving me nuts, and I am a doormat, a patent, dictionary definition doormat as long as that continues. BUT... as you said, I have to plan it out better. I think I will, if she wants, help her with more coaching tomorrow. I will also talk to her and be very supportive after the interview is done on Monday. Then maybe, slowly, I will start to withdraw, and better define my limits with her. She even expected me to pay the full mortgage while she was not staying here, but she's in the house about 45 hours a week, does her laundry here, makes coffee, has meals, kept her keys, the whole shebang. So I won't send the email. But I will probably have to move next week to withdraw a bit, and withdrawing means setting limits for access, I think... unless I'm wrong on that too? Damn, I can't even get any work done today

I'm thinking about sending her this email, or saying these things to her in person. Thoughts anyone? I was hoping to talk to you about this today, but we didn't get the chance. I need you to more clearly define for me when you plan on being in the house on a weekly basis. I need to have more of an understanding of when I can expect privacy or "my space" as I continue to work on things. Please understand - I am not denying you access to the house. I'm asking that you give me the same respect that I've been giving you - privacy, and the ability to be secure in knowing that, when I'm home, I don't have to worry about you dropping by if I am doing other things or decide to have friends over. Since I don't know where you are staying or who with, you're very secure in this and you have this privacy. Even if I did know where you were staying, I would never even attempt to go and visit you - I respect your wish for space and for distance. I am asking for some of the same. So I would appreciate it if you could do several things. First, please let me know as best you can the times during the week you want to be at the house, be it teaching or inside the house. If it changes at any time, please let me know at your earliest convenience. Second, if you want to stay longer in the house outside of those times, or want to drop by unexpectedly, ask permission first (or call). It's a courtesy I would like you to extend. Third, if you would like to drop by and chat, just ask me, and if I have the time, I'd be more than happy to. Thanks! Thoughts?

One further thought on the coaching. I suppose I could agree to coach her, but on my time, and also limit the time... "sorry, I have things I have to do". kind of thing. That would fall into the game plan that both Beec and Gee Cee have proposed.... ? Addition: I just sent her an SMS saying "if you want coaching for the thing on Monday, we'll have to find a time that works best for me; something came up and I'm going to be busy tomorrow". Within seconds of me sending it, she calls... I said "I'm really busy right now, can I call you back..." Left it at that. But I'm still burned today - at her blowing me off again, at my reaction to it, at not reading your good words before I started my day. Grr. There's also a danger here. The stuff I just did, telling her I'd talk later, being short, that EXACTLY what I did with her for years. I gotta adjust how I do it. I have to probably be more polite and change my word structure a bit so she doesn't get flashbacks if I start becoming less accessible again. Damn, this is tough. LostinVan

Solid advice, both of you, and I thank you both for it. I'm taking it to heart. I only wish I had read it before this morning.... had a backslide big time. Three days ago, I said "I need to get some spring clothes and value your opinion, could you come with me to go shopping for an hour?" She said no to Thursday. I said Friday? She said no, but I have time on Saturday. I said okay, that works for me - after you're done teaching? Yes. So this morning. I get my morning work done, then she comes into the house and says hi, I gotta do this, gotta do that, yada yada, then I gotta go. I said - well, there's one other thing you forgot.... drew a blank look. I said "helping me shop for some clothes? And she blew me off. I tried to keep my cool and said "don't worry about it, I valued your opinion but you have things to do...." but I guess my actions and face said more. I finished getting ready to go, she asked me another question about something else and I was polite but short in my reply, and she said "now you're upset with me". I said "no, you have your life to live, I understand that" and headed out the door. But I'm reading over your comments Beec and Gee Cees again and again now, and I'm taking them to heart. I should go to the office more (yes, my company does have an office I should, at this stage, be available a LOT less to her. I should not be so accessible to her when SHE wants to talk. At least at this stage. I've laid some heavy groundwork, and it's probably time to step back now. If anything for my own sanity. I'm really burned about today. It's the second time in two tries by me to get her to do something (the lunch thing last Monday was the previous) that she's blown me off. This brings up something. I asked her to help proof some documents that are urgent and pressing and need an evaluation. She asked me yesterday and today if they were ready. I said "still working on it". I think I will tell her next time I see her that to never mind it, I've found someone else to do it (and I gotta find someone else now! Second thing. I arranged for, uh, some media exposure for her that's coming up on a specialized subject. I was asked to do it, but it's in a different language and I decided to see if she wanted to do it. She said yes and has delved into it a LOT (in fact, she's getting almost egotistical about it). But she needs coaching from me on things to say. I was intending on doing it tomorrow. Question - if I make myself unavailable for it, is that bad or not? This is a unique situation - she could "take a fall" if I don't coach her. But if I don't coach her, will she regret our sitch or be resentful because I didn't coach her.... sigh. LostinVan.

I got nothing much to say except, I think the evening went just about perfect, Rich! Keep to your plan, mate. LostinVan, who wishes he could go on a date with the ex

Today's update - and it's a big one. I could really use some feedback on your interpretation of the events. Last night, I had a moment of clarity. I've been reading zen readings as of late, without any real reason other than it helps me to clear my mind and think in new ways. But I discovered why I was reading it last night... it came to me all of a sudden: True, real love means accepting the person for what they are and not trying to change them. I didn't even fathom the meaning behind these words until last night. It doesn't mean you shouldn't gripe about your spouse being late, or procrastinating or using foul language, etc. You can (and should) still do that if it causes conflict. It means that you fell in love with a person because of what they are. If from the get go, you didn't like certain things about their demeanor or way of living life, but tolerated, that isn't real love (IMO). But if you did fall hopelessly, totally in love with someone, you accept all that they are, warts and all. I did with my ex. For a time, I forgot that. And the more I thought about it, the more I knew she was in love with me, hopelessly, totally. What did the relationship in was me forgetting (or not realising) this, and trying to change her intrinsically at times. Deep changes, not superficial stuff. Like..... WOW. So today. This is on my mind. Do I bring it up? I'll wait, I think. Lots of interactivity with the ex today. She was here in the AM. We had very nice chats. She brought up some interesting stuff about how she perceives herself. "if people were looking at me, I'd wonder what was wrong with me. I couldn't imagine they may like looking at me or thinking I'm in any way attractive. And I realise I don't feel that way about myself" she said. We did some exploratory talk. I said "I always thought you were beautiful to me, and I've told you countless times, but now something makes sense. I slowed down my telling you this as the years went on because I saw the reaction over and over again - you being uncomfortable hearing it." Then the phone rings. She sees the number and immediately excuses herself in the middle of this deep convo. From what I could hear, it's probably the guy she's seeing now, reminding her about lunch. She says "in 30 minutes okay? Whatever he said, she said "okay, okay, I'll leave now, see you in 10". (I'm angry about her seeing another guy, but happy to see that maybe he's being a demanding dink so early on). She went out, I went out. She was back at the house first. She was teaching, then had a break about an hour after I got back. We sat in the living room talking again, first light talk, then more serious. My clarity moment from the evening before was burning a hole in my head. She must have noticed... "penny for your thoughts". I said "well, I'm not sure if you want to hear this, it's pretty intense". She said "you pique'd my interest - what is it..." I said, "are you sure you're ready for something big?" She said yes in a good body language voice. I told her. Told her my thoughts on true love. Told her I dropped the ball, but it never left me. I just forgot to exercise it. She smiled. Then became pensive. I said "what are your thoughts on that. " She said "I'm happy for you that you have realised this. I'm also sad. (I asked why), she said "because it's too late now." I said "it's never too late as long as I have lungs in me breathing. I realise this powerful thing now, and it's going to change the course of my life in any relationship I may develop in the future." She smiled at that and her body language was good. Then we moved onto lighter things and started talking about the trade show again. Get this. After the bomb, she's talking like she's GOING. Not only that, but she started rambling off other trade shows in this calendar year that she's now excited about. She wants me to do up new business cards for her even! So how do I read that. I'm not foolish enough to think "wow, my moment of clarity has turned the corner". It hasn't. Not yet. But it's shown her an element in me that she hasn't seen for years. I hope even now, as she's heading home, that she's thinking about it. The question is, what to do the next few days with it? Minor items to finish off. Some quirky stuff happened - like she left laundry in the dryer (she brought over stuff to wash today) and I offered to fold it for her and she was forcefully adamant about not letting me do it. What, is she doing the other guy's laundry already? She took all of it unfolded when she left. Second - she's obviously hesitant to stay too long after her work is done. Like she has some place to go. Constantly. Third - slightly disturbing - she hasn't answered any of my emails from the past few days where I asked specific (but none-too-deep) questions. BTW, sorry all for the way I ramble on. It's hard to get my thoughts accross while keeping things clear and concise. LostinVan

Basically lead by example, right? Wow Beec, you told me something I didn't realise myself. I was looking for massive self-esteem boosts by having her acknowledge (almost constantly) how my move out to the 'burbs was done 100% for her. I complained and whined about it frequently enough. I pointed it out often. I would be driving home from my old neighbourhood with her in the car saying "I frikkin' hate __________ (the burbs' name)" (replace frikkin' with the more obvious word). You gave me a moment of clarity here - what I was doing was not so much complaining as waiting for her to always say "yes I know, and I love you for it". She did say this from time to time at first. Okay... game plan formulating (much happened today, I'll cover it in another posting). Continue to use the tools I have learned in the past month to improve myself and get my own self-esteem from within. She can't help but notice, and may become curious (or remember the few hints I've already dropped). What's ironic is this... I think it may already be working. She's dropped hints that she's starting self-examination. That's a GOOD thing. Today we had a wallop of a discussion (including a heavy bomb from me); on her part, she talked about how she was examining her way of thinking about herself, and how she reacts to things. For instance, she said "when someone's looking at me, my only thought is, 'do I have something on my nose or something' - for my whole life I couldn't believe it was because they were interested or attracted to me". I could (and have) interpreted this two ways. The good - she realises already she needs a self-made self-esteem boost. The bad - the guys who are pursuing her now are flowering her with compliments, and she's starting to like an accept it. What are your thoughts on this? Is the bad in any way good for me and my situation? LostinVan, who takes much value in Beec' comments

Ulp. I'm pretty sure she's not wavering on it. She's intimated to me a couple of times that she's not thrilled that I haven't told certain people yet (yesterday, a mutual female friend saw her, and asked where my ex's engagement ring was (do women notice this all the time????)". My ex told her we were broken up. Mutual friend was shocked. I last talked to mutual friend a couple of days after I got back home from my Mom's funeral, and didn't mention it to her then.... my ex asked me why I didn't tell mutual buddy (in a slightly irked way). Also got another major backslide today... another mutual friend had coffee with the ex this morning. mutual friend came by tonight to have a chat with me. Said the ex : - is doing a LOT of thinking lately, a change from the last time she saw my ex (a good thing I think... if I think positive. the cynic in me says its bad) - has not given any indication to mutual friend that there's any hope of reconcilliation (a bad thing) - told mutual friend that she is "now seeing someone else"... left it at that. a VERY bad thing - here's the weirdest one... told mutual friend that she (my ex) has no jealousy. Even went so far as to say this "if, 5 years ago, I walked into the house one day and found (LostinVan) in bed with another woman, I'd just shrug and go about my work or watch TV, not being worried about it". Here, it gets weirder. When the ex was over her this afternoon, the subject came up, and she said exactly what she said to our mutual friend - she told me the same thing I would later hear from mutual friend. I said to her "I worry about hearing that. What it says to me is that your concern about betrayal or infidelity is non-existant - and it would work both ways - if you didn't care that I was sleeping with someone else, then you might think subconsciously that you could sleep with someone else with no worry?". Ex said "I don't think so, it's mainly how I feel about others. I wouldn't do it myself (which is a bit of a lie - she's been on the infamous web board, asking for "sex chat" for a couple of months). As a side note, and some levity... you don't think she has swinger blood in her, do you? (don't answer that!!!). Anyway, today was a really down day for me. I found out something new. This one's kinda cold, but maybe I'm just reading it negatively. When I was going through so much pain and hurt while accross the country with my Mom (while she was still alive but not doing well at all), my ex, then my spouse, was with me, but she left on a Saturday (leaving me back east); at the airport, she saw how much pain I was in, how hurt I was, how much I needed her by my side. But I also knew my spouse had to get back home because her biz was reallly, really suffering, so I didn't object too much to her leaving - well, I tried hard NOT to lay a guilt trip on. So she goes home on a Saturday? On Sunday, she modified her web dating account to add new profile changes for her intimacy and dating portions. To me, that reeks of coldness. But maybe I'm just looking at it with heavily biased eyes and mind. LostinVan PS... I was upbeat today... tonight I'm very down. Sorry...

Well, my poor thread is buried on page three now, so maybe I should start a new one. I'm going to take a different tack with this thread. I want to present a problem or an "issue" I have with the ex currently, and get opinions on what I should do about it... I hope you folks can help out. So, here's a sitch and how I feel about it. My ex and I are talking and communicating daily. She's friendly most days, but does not accept any offers to stay longer than she has set in her mind (which means, once she's done working, she wants to leave within a short while). She gives me occasional hugs, and kisses on the cheek. (see my other thread for major day by day accounts of what our current interaction is like) Found out the ex is seeing one particular guy. Been on at least six dates with him now, first date was literally a day after she walked out of our house and left a letter for me, breaking up. I feel that the ex has had no time for introspection. Went from me to another guy right away. I should point out this has been her history. She went from 6 month relationship to 1.5 year relationship to a 1 year relationship to a 4 month relationship to 2 year relationship to a 1 year relationship to me (12 year relationship).... with literally no break between relationships. She'd break up with a guy (or they would dump her), and within days, she'd be dating someone else. I would like her to take a break. Not because jealousy is involved... but because I geniunely feel she has not looked inside herself as to why she's unhappy; she uses an internet date / sex chat website to get self-esteem boosts, and she admitted herself that she *needs* to have someone with her, on an intimacy / dating level to make her feel good. So, how do I approach this? Should I leave it be, or should I work on strategies to get her thinking about taking a break for once, or at least looking within herself for some sense of happiness, instead of finding superficial happiness in guys pursuing her. LostinVan

Well Strong1, I think this is just a FANTASTIC post, and a FANTASTIC way to get you in a good solid frame of mind before you leave on your trip! I don't think your visit could have gone any better. He's wanting more, you're leaving, he's going to be panting by the time you come back... maybe, but hopefully! Hey, before you go away, I hope you can pop by my thread (now off the main page because of all the new posts) and give me some in depth analysis of all the stuff I've written in the last day or two. I'm starved for some feedback. Chat soon... LostinVan

Well this is quite the change Gone from "she's changed her phone number so I can never contact her again!!!!" to "gonna be alone tonight, must resist asking her over for the eve". It's funny how our minds can run with the worst gawdawful scenario huh? We're all guilty of this... myself included. Maybe all of us should take a lesson from your very happy news. Re msg, I would do it, but I'm not in your sitch... make it short and sweet, but not too sweet? LostinVan

Fair enough Beec. No more analysing what may be going through her mind... start analysing how I can get her mind back to where she finds me hot (instead of not).... I get the drift I like the analogies btw. But I'm now completely stumped. I have still been analysing the past, and the present. I gotta figure out, well, how do I win over this woman again, at least where she can't help but feel sexually attracted to me, and wanting to kiss me. I'm keeping a journal, btw (I highly recommend it to anyone in our sitch). Here's the end of today's entry, a long one. Yesterday, I was really upbeat. Today, I'm very down again. Down about Mom, down because I want to say so much to _________ and cannot. I know I love her. I know she's the most important person in the world to me (and I've told her this, so I won't say it again for some time, I don't want to make __________ uncomfortable). I know that I can give ________ an environment where she will be happy once again, and I will be happy again, or at the very least I know I'm getting there. Just kiss me once _____________. It'd be an awesome sign and give me so much. K... enough of that, what is the game plan now. Do what I did to initially attract her a dozen years ago? In a way I am doing that. Being happy, being upbeat, being a fun guy, and BEING ALOOF. She chased me, I didn't chase her in the beginning. So I am doing this now. Not always (I have my backslides)... What did I do to make myself attractive to her five years ago... I honestly don't know. I assumed it was blind love. Gameplan. I don't have a game plan. I need one. LostinVan

A tiny update I broke a rule I had (we're sad, ain't we and went to the web dating board. She didn't log on to it at all today!!! Last log in was yesterday! At the very least, no checking it out today! And one other tiny sign of hope. She emailed me and said she was looking to get "The Art of Happiness" by Dali Lama. Both her and I have been into reading Zen lately. I read a portion of that book last week. It's a good start. Now if I could get her somehow interested in reading "How to Change Your Life and Everyone in it"... which is all about positive reinforcement, putting the past behind and finding solutions for the future... and written by the author of Divorce Busting and Divorce Remedy... Still, with this good news, I'm on a downer today. Just my rollercoaster emotions. LostinVan

I see your point Beec (and appreciate your comments), and what you say could very well be true. But I've been wondering if another thing is going on.... a) she's signed up on an "intimacy" portion of a popular web dating board. Has been signed up on it for several months. She's also on the "dating" portion of the board. b) She says specifically in her bio she wants sex chat, and talks about being a bad girl. I was thinking that the "no kiss, no sex jokes" thing is a bit deeper... I'm thinking there's a heap of guilt involved. If she is in sex chats for real with a variety of guys, (and we know what guys are like on this board), perhaps she's embarrassed and ashamed about it, vis a vis me... she did say in her bio that she has a fiance (it's an old bio, written before our breakup) and "no, he does not know, and yes, if he knew, he would be very upset". So if she's having her illicit fun, and she's initiated a break up with me, even if she did have sexual feelings for me now (and last night I got the first BARE hint that she would have liked to kiss me - didn't happen today though - she is back to total "friend" mode), perhaps the combination of events is making her react a certain way, ie, NO KISSING attitude, showing offense over the BJ joke. Thoughts? Or am I trying to put blinders on and avoid what you said? LostinVan (sorry GeeCee for the slight hijack).

Another yo yo, rollercoaster day for me. Mainly it's me. My contact with the ex today has been generally good if you were an outside observer. But I'm depressed as heck today, I'll explain below. First, re the dogs and cleaning noses... She always took on that job because she seemed to be able to handle it better... and when I asked her, it was in the phrase of a joke... "so and so's nose is really bad right now, could I ask you to take a look at it? I'll take care of her opposite end (said with a grin, and she laughed - don't ask me to explain more!). Today... ex didn't come over until about a half hour before her work started (just to refresh, she works from this house). We talked a bit, then she said to me, re the trade show: "please don't think I've said yes. I said I'm considering it. My sister is coming back two days before that and I'd like to spend time with her" (my brain's screaming - but your sis is now STAYING in town, she's coming back to STAY!!!! The show is only once a year!!! please go!!!!!)... but that's what I thought. I said "I understand... family is important! But I hope you'll still consider it..." and left it at that. She goes to teach. We had tiny interactions. She also replied to a long email I sent last night (a first! more on that below) during one of her breaks... so when she came in to have some computer time, at least I know a portion of her computer time was spent writing something long to me, not perusing dating and sex chat websites! About those emails. She's someone who loves exchanging letter with others. One thing she didn't like about me... I'm not much of a social writer (heheh hehe hard to believe, huh)... the fact is, because of my businesses, I get about 1300 emails a day. 1200 or more are spam (don't ask...), and about 100 or so are legit emails. I usually answer most with canned responses, and the ones I do have to answer are usually short and to the point. I also ignore, or put aside (then forget) many emails.... including a lot of hers. I found out thru a friend this has always bothered her.... sooooooo. The last four days, I've taken to sending her long emails, light, talking about my day, talking about stuff I read, etc. She finally responded to one of them today... and her response was long and nice, though she reinforced her thoughts about the trade show visit... ie, not sure, worried about my expectations, etc. Okay, last interaction I had with her... (she's still here, but teaching right now). She came in as I was talking to a friend and client. At one point, the ex was upstairs, and my friend asked "so is so-and-so coming to the trade show?" I told him I'm not sure, and decided to tell him that me and the ex broke up... she walked down during my side of this, heard me sort of whispering, and went by me quick and SLAMMED the door going outside. Uh oh. So I wrote my reply email to her, talked about new things, quoted some Yeats I've been reading recently, then in a light way said "oh, I also was on the fone with so and so, and I decided to tell him we were broken up... because he asked if you were going to be at the trade show. He's sorry to hear it, but wishes the best for both of us." Also another thing has me down today. I asked her if she could stay after her teaching (she's done at 7pm) to get caught up, and she was "sorry, got plans". I know she's seeing some guy now... it's KILLING me. I said "oh, okay, well, I hope work goes well this afternoon." Sigh. LostinVan PS... here's the Yeats quotes: Happiness is neither virtue nor pleasure nor this thing nor that but simply growth, We are happy when we are growing. and Think where man's glory most begins and ends, And say my glory was I had such friends.

GeeCee: I'm not sure how much I could add here. Your dynamic is different from mine - ie, kisses, the occasional shag and such - there seems to be this animal lust between the two of you that goes beyond what the brains are saying (not sure on his part, I'm guessing). In my case, my ex is, at least outwardly, treating me as if I were a brother, and she gives signs most days that kissing me on the lips is repugnant. As a joke a week or 10 days ago, the subject of blowjobs came up and when I hinted that hey, I could be the stanky boss role and she could be the unsure assistant and well, you know. Now, in the past if I brought something like that up, she'd be totally like "hrmmm, heyah!" (in fact, she brought up the old boss and secretary "fantasy" in the past some times). This time, some 10 days ago or such, she treated the joke with obvious disgust. Okay LostinVan, focus on GeeCee's sitch. I think you did good overall, especially considering the past... ie, the intimacy. But, have you, at any time in the last little while, told him that you want to work on yourself before you hop back into things? Told him either directly or intimated it? If you haven't, and considering the past intimacies, he may be wondering if you've gone flat, gone "non interested any longer"... but probably not, since your exchange with him seemed positive and upbeat. I think at this stage, keeping communication open, fun, light, upbeat but no "I love you!" is the way to go. Even though I'm having another down day (I'll post to my thread soon), it seems to be working. My mantra is, if there's any signs of positive stuff, go with it... even if I'm personally having another yo yo day at the bottom of the string. LostinVan.

Okay, so the day is over with the ex, and it's what I would call a GOOD day, though I'm still wary of being too positive about her yet, and I think I should look at things from an objective perspective. Had lots of tiny interactions during the day. I went out to do some shopping, get a hair cut, get some dog stuff, visit a client. I got back home at around 4:30, and the ex was sleeping........ in our bed! (WTF?). She woke up when I called her name, and she was obviously embarrassed and jumped out quickly, also straightened up the bed. Turns out she had a migraine (she gets these occasionally, and yes, I do fret about them all the time), and just kind of zonked out for an hour or so (I was gone for half the day). She was late for her next class, so she quickly headed out. I had bought a few minor things for her while I was out shopping (nothing major - grapes, some dried mango, some sinutab for her current cold, etc), and decided to drop them off in her class a couple of times so she could eat and also pop some pills. She came in after teaching, went upstairs and actually paid attention to our oldest dog (yeeehah). Mind you, I did ask her if she could check out or oldest and clean up the dog's nose (long story). But that was hours before. Then, well, the computer for about an hour. But I've resolved myself to NOT CHECK THE INTERNET DATE / SEX WEBSITE any longer for any of her activity. So I didn't log back on to see if she surfed it this evening. When it came time to leave, I'm most likely wrong on this, but there was a scant element of "hesitance" in the air from her. Probably wrong on that . But one big body language event. I had some cheery talk with her, asked if her headache was gone (yes, and she thanked me for the vitamins and ibuprophen I gave her)... and we were about a foot away from each other, and I swear for a split second, she went to do something that used to be natural... kiss on the lips... but she quickly turned it into a good hug and kiss on the cheek. Other minor things from today: I had a short episode of tears about my Mom (still comes in spurts)... ex mentioned something about my Mom and it just happened, ex immediately hugged and said comforting words. Even said "Wow, you went from an excited and cheery person to this in a literal blink of the eye..." (which means she's noticing my cheerful demeanor, which wasn't even faked today). Later on, she saw I bought kettle popcorn (barely Atkins level...) and did a bit of a "swoon" as in "I love kettle corn!". I gave her a couple of bags to take with her, and she was visibly and audibly grateful in a very cheery way. Okay, now some thoughts. 1. The trade show. I have no illusions, at least at this time, that she's coming to be with me. She's going to help me in my jobs because she still enjoys that. She's also going because she has awesome memories of last year's show. In fact, she said "I hope people don't think of me as a show rat!". But we went from her not even seeming to consider it to her really considering coming for at least part of my time there. 2. I don't want to be overly optimistic about today... yes I'm extremely happy and feeling good tonight, but I want to also think about today's events with sober reflection, and still take things slow. All in all, a great day, and wow, quite a change from yesterday, huh? I wonder if my two "stand up for myself" events did something. I should note again... I am a strong willed person, very much an A type personality. In the past, I would have stood up for myself and been a dink about it too... this time, I stood up for myself, but was calm and reasoned. That IS a change. Maybe she noticed that. Maybe she even believes me that I am not trying to manipulate her vis a vis putting off moving. LostinVan.

AY Carumba, batman!!! This woman is soooooo confusing! This morning... a good morning. (also a good morning to you all). I have a major trade show coming up in a few weeks. The ex went with me last year to it, and she had a great time. Major ego stroking is what she got, and she truly enjoyed it. My, uh "fame" preceeded me, and by virtue of her being my spouse, she was automatically treated like a VIP... then her personality and engaging behavior won over more points. This year, I brough up the subject of her going again, but she's constantly turned it down since our break (and before the break) because a) she's already travelled a lot in the last few months (she has, cuz of my Mom) and has lost a lot of work, and b) our obvious situation. This morning, she is over here and she's taking care of bills, correspondence and such. We had some good light hearted convos, and I said at one point "I'm getting a lot of emails from folks now about the upcoming show, and everyone's asking if you're going (most of these folks don't know about the break up). I told the ex I've been replying saying no, she has done so much travel recently, she can't spare the time any more for fear of damaging her job..." Then the ex surprised me. "what's the dates again of the show... (I told her)... she looks at her calendar and says "what if I don't go the same time you do, but I do go for Friday to Sunday?, would you mind?" .... would I mind???!!!!!!!!!!?????? would I mind!!!!????? Lessee. U. Me. In a very cool town. In the same hotel room (I have a suite booked, also have the option of two doubles or one king size, but also a pull out couch)... hanging out. Going to dinners. Having a good time. Soaking up some adoration from people who respect and like me. Having you witness me in at my absolute best. Would I mind?????!!!!!!!!!!!!! I kept it cool folks. I said "I think that would work for me, and I sure could use your help. But this year, I'll totally give your independence to do your own thing...." She started looking at flights Now, there's a potential down side to this. She was hit on A LOT at last year's show. I'm not assuming she's going this year to get hit on and have one night stands, but I also assume she'd want me to present her as an assistant or helper or whatever at the show, and probably make it clear she's an ex. So now I'm all paranoid and stuff about that But.... this is a major change. I can't figure out this woman! LostinVan

I have one bit of advice. If the two of you are thinking both about getting back together, seek a good, solutions-based marital therapist (yes, even if you aren't married) They can give you some good tools on how to make it work this second time around. If both of you are talking about getting back in a positive way, get the tools you need to make it last. LostinVan

This, I *totally agree with*... I'm not even close to finding that balance yet. I think I need my ex to get out of the "angry" phase. First couple of weeks, she was in agony / guilt / fear of hurting me, but knows she needed to do it phase. It seems since Saturday at least, she's been in the "angry" phase. I just got off the phone with a mutual friend, who said my ex talked to her Sat evening and just railed on me and my bad habits. Today, well, she slapped the dog and started making a few demands. Dan the man, did your ex go through this phase (I'm guessing she did)... did you see it, or was it in the N/C part of your quest? I'm curious how long it lasts, and what comes later... reflection? doubt? Is that the time to get yourself moving to "strike the balance for what will work" and start approaching the ex again with a solid game plan as to how any new relationship may proceed? LostinVan

It's got a name too... the "swerve". I still feel like crap from today's swerve, but I also felt that, when it comes to violence against an animal especially (but also making unreasonable demands), it was deserved. The good thing is, I think I handled it well, and I was certainly polite about it all, even when she made accusations against me. LostinVan

Another couple of thoughts, and a cry for opinion... First, well, she logged onto the dating / sex chat website again today, probably this evening. Second, I've now gotten the hint accross twice "I'm finding a happiness for myself inside of me, without relying on others, I'm pretty sure that's true, not superficial". I said once to her "I am worried about you and you finding happiness. I hope you'll take the time to find it inside of you instead of around you." So, I'm not going to mention this stuff again to her. But I'm not entirely sure she gets the drift. What I *want* to say to her is that I am getting to the point where I can truly provide her with an environment where she can be happy, can be satisfied, can be fullfilled. I know I'm getting there. I'm able to do it for myself in spurts. I know I'm babysteps away from being able to provide the seeds for her too. But I don't know how to say that without scaring her off, or how to do things to convince her that its not a lie. I guess... I guess still being the happy self around her (I have been making an effort to be more happy around her, laugh at her jokes, tell my own, tell interesting stories about what happened during my day, etc). But I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel. For all the activity today, I feel like I've taken major steps back. Maybe I feel like I've taken steps back because today's the first day since the break that she hasn't given me a hug or even touched me (she likes holding hands). LostinVan

Hey Strong1... have you ever considered if he's a candidate for those books another helpful person on this board recommended to me a couple of weeks ago - DivorceBusting and Divorce Remedy? Would he react well to being given the books? Heck, would he react well to having the two of you read it together? Just one thought. Another... he definitely is flighty. He's the dumper, but talks about marriage and kids and such? That one is a head scratcher. I guess the only obvious thing is he is a bit of a lost soul, with no clear idea of what he wants or the direction he needs. Hence the books. Another thing I find hard to understand... well maybe not. His job... life to him. Relationship? Maybe he just thinks its "cool to have". Somehow you gotta get him to switch the priorities. LostinVan