Making the First Move

[Carnatic]

Hey there, I am 23 year old male student. I have never had a girlfriend and I never get hit on when I go out, I haven't exactly been blessed with looks, wit or charisma, but I have seen guys who would appear to be worse off than myself get on well with women, so it's not that; that's just a bit of background. My problem is that if I get talking to a girl I don't know how to make the first move.

 

All the advice people give me is to do with either going up and talking to her or asking her on a date or something, nothing mentions what goes on inbetween, where just chatting to someone changes into something that is going somewhere.

 

I do occasionally get chatting to girls randomly, I don't know how, I'm quite shy so I don't think I instigate it; I also will sometimes be talking to girls who are mates of mates. Now I don't necessarily want to make a move on all of these girls, but every now and again I will be chatting to a girl who I really like. I'm not exactly chatting her up though, I will just chat to her the same way you chat to anyone else, until conversation dries up or one of us has to leave, maybe there are subtle hints I give her that I'm not aware of, but then I'm not aware of that; and subtle is about as far as it goes. I will shy away from doing anything that is an obvious statement of interest, for fear of her taking it as being too forward. I don't exactly know what a good thing to do would be, to let her know I'm interested without being too forward.

 

All the advice people give me is to

I see other guys do it all the time, and it looks like some kind of black art or sophistry. They are talking to the girl, right I understand that, I do that myself; but then 'suddenly' they are clearly flirting or even are kissing. How do guys get from that.... to that? That's what I never understood. It isn't obvious to me, the obvious come-ons I see around me are usually pretty sleazy leery come-ons by drunken guys letching on girls in clubs, usually competing with each other and acting like total pr**ks. That's not really my scene, I know that guys and girls get together all the time, and the guy has usually made the first move, I just haven't a clue what that could be.

 

So countless times I have gone away from girls wishing I had done something, sometimes girls I met in a bar, occasionally girls I have known as friends for a while. Each time though, I can't think, what could I actually do in that situation. So picture me, in a bar, chatting to a pretty girl, never mind whether she just came up to talk to me, a friend introduced me to her or I already knew her; I am definitely interested in her, but we are just talking about music or some other common interest, what would I do to move things on from there?

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated

 

yours

 

Carnatic.

[Jinx]

I do believe if you're interested in the possibility of dating a woman and bringing it up in conversation in a fluid like manner you'd have to bring up a topic, and chat as you've mentioned. That is correct for a start but its best to judge her interest or poke with questions that bring up what she is interested in. Thus, once learning her interest you will be able to work with that.

 

One major key to flirting would be a compliment and more interest in her than casual friend talk. If you're speaking to her in a friendly manner and only giving friendly signals or subtle interest signals, she may not pick them up. People that aren't subject to a lot of nonverbal behavior and having to interpret it may all together miss it. One approach I've seen done, is start on a topic which is of interest, get her going, allow her to lead the conversation, when it seems to be slowing but not yet dead "accidently" interrupt with a compliment of some type. Say something about her physical or general appearance that you notice. Of course as you know, you have to monitor what is said - Somethings are rewarded with a phone number, others are rewarded with a hand print accross the cheek. Then after the compliment talk is over, restate about the aspect which you had to comment on, then proceed by asking her to continue what she was saying. By that point some women forget the original topic and find another for conversation spice or put an end note to the previous and move onward with a new topic of interest.

 

You need to seem approachable and confident. One thing I always love, is eye contact. You know the eyes are the window to the soul, and most often even for the most nonverbally inept, a slight linger in the contact will give a hint that you're interested in more. If the women is also interested and notices this you should get a response. If you two hit it off after all this and she seems interested you can make a comment along the lines that you found the conversation and what not interesting and you'd like to see/speak with her again. That will leave it open to her interpretation of phone number, location, or the possible lack of interest phase, "Maybe we'll run into each other again sometime."

[melrich]

Yes it is really hard to go from idle chat, to flirting, to getting a date. If you are not a natural flirt don't even try it because it is an art...LOL...

 

So don't try and copy what you see, I mean learn from it but adapt it to your own style, cut out the parts that you can't pull off.

 

Then it's a matter of telling yourself you can do it. Trust me, everyone is scared of rejection and whenever you make the first move you are risking rejection. After a few times you realise that rejection is not that bad. At the initial stages it is not a personal thing, you don't know each other well enough for it to be personal so any rejection is really more about an instinctive feeling.

 

So try and get a mindset that says "I don't fear rejection"...then work out an approach that suits your character (don't try to pull off what is not natural for you)...then get some exposure... that is try it out....go back to point one...don't be afraid of rejection.

[pineapple_juice]

Flirting with girls is like learning any difficult task. It takes time and attention, but with lots of practice it requires less attention and becomes second nature. At one time when I was a baby, walking was difficult, as it is for any baby...but with practice and practice it has become automatized.

 

What you should do is prepare a script of what you will say to a girl. Take time to think about your own life and script. Here is an example of mine:

 

1. Ask the girl about her field of study or career. What are her career dreams? What did she want to do when she was a little girl?

 

2. Ask her about her family...ask about her brothers and sisters, what they are doing, where they live.....

 

3. Ask her where she has travelled?

 

4. Ask her about whether she finds her job / field of study enjoyable or stressful...sympathize with whatever she says....

 

5. Ask her what school she graduated from...

 

Okay, so say you want to kiss her......

 

This is something you could try: Take out your hand and tell her to close her eyes...tell her to imagine your hand is an enchanting forest with magical parrots and is by an ocean. Tell her to open her eyes and trace your finger along your hand, telling her you are following a path that avoids pirates and crazy monkeys. Now tell her to close her eyes and to follow the same path. Now tell her she has been successful, but now you are going to try it on her hand (with her eyes closed of course)...and tell her that if she runs into crazy monkeys, you have to tickle her, but if she runs into pirates and gets kidnapped by them, then you have to kiss that part of the hand to rescue her from the pirates...most girls will do it, and you will get to kiss her hand....even the girls who won't let them kiss your hand will atleast admire you for your confdience and creativity...once you have kissed one hand, tell her that her other hand is feeling jealous, and that it needs a kiss too...most girls will just laugh and let you kiss thier 2nd hand....

[melrich]

Yes that is a good idea. If you don't feel the pressure to be too spontaneous (I mean don't read it like a script or anything) it is one less thing to worry about. And people like people who take an interest in them so pineapple's questions are good ones.

[antigravity]

Hi Carnatic, i'm VERY VERY similar to you.

 

I'm shy, get nervous around people I don't know, especially girls!

 

I've gotten with 4 girls in the past 3 months (don't ask me how, because i'm hopeless, and just an average looking guy), but I think the secret is to say things that let the person know that your interested.

 

This is what I do:

 

You have to say something that a friend wouldn't say (hey cutie, gorgeous etc.)... I think you need to be cheeky, without being sleazy. (I think you do this be keeping your physical distance, and not being cocky)

 

Keep eye contact, and smile! Also (and this is a big one) don't invade the girls space. Make fun of yourself (girls seem to like this), and never talk yourself up. Make sure the person your talking knows what your hobbies are, and hopefully they share some of them.. Talk about them obviously, but don't ask TOO many questions. Otherwise it'll feel like an interview. What you'll need to try and do is build a light conversation on an answer of hers...

 

Unfortunately, I think being spontaneous is the key, but before you go out, think of a couple of basic questions you might ask, and the spontaneously build on your conversation from those base questions.

 

That usually works, don't try and be a comedian, just be natural, and DON'T use LINES! Whatever you do... Just be yourself. If your a shy guy, be a shy guy. Don't try and be an overconfident stud, if that's not who you are.

 

 

 

 

MY BIGGEST TIP!

Go out to have fun with whoever your going with. Don't go out with the intention of 'picking up' or 'getting lucky'. Just go out, have fun, if a cute girl happens to be dancing near you, or sitting near you, strike up a convo, but don't let that be the prequisite for having a good night.

 

Good luck!! (you won't need it anyway... just be yourself.. If your a good guy, girls will notice)

[ShySoul]

Don't think. Don't try. More you do, the more nervous you get and more afriad you are of making a wrong move. That in turn is likely to cause you to make a wrong move. Basically, just stay calm and be yourself. Focus on being happy with yourself. Once you are, your natural personality shines and people start noticing you.

 

The way you get from talking to kissing is (and a half expect to be attacked by a mob of hungry lions for saying this) be being the girls friend. Now, there are two kinds of girls here. The first one start kissing you after a short time. They are more forward. As a shy person, I have a feeling that isn't exactly the kind of girl you want to be with. And it probably wouldn't last long. The other girl you have to romance and court. These are the girls you want, for they would probably be a more suitable match. They are often shy themselves, and that gives you a common ground, as she will probably be feeling just as nervous as you.

 

These girls you have to take your time with. You have to get comfortable with each other. You can talk about anything really, just as long as you are having fun doing so. At some point attraction will grow. You'll just be able to feel it. That is when you take a chance and say you like her or ask her out. Once it is mutual attraction and interest, things sort of progress on its own and you feel it. No trick, no mystery. The important thing is to learn to live in the moment and follow your heart.

 

If you are in a bar with random girls talking about music, keep on talking. The first question is, do you want to just make out with this random girl? Or do you want something deeper. If you want to just make out, you can follow all the guides and methods to get you that. But at the end of the day you will still be empty. If you want something deeper, you have to take your time and take it slow. You have to be sincere and heartfelt. You have to look in her eyes and smile. And you don't push for more until you are going out again together.

[antigravity]

Shysoul.. I think sometimes you give good advice BUT..

 

How many girls have you picked up?

 

I can recall you saying you haven't had a girlfriend before. If this is right... how can you give advice on a topic like this?

 

 

The reason I say this is I have NEVER seen good friends successfully move onto a successful relationship! The longer your "friends", the harder it is to go the next step. Make sure the girl knows RIGHT FROM THE START what you want from her...

 

Being "friends" is just deceiving and in fact quite sneaky. Girls (even shy ones) like hanging with a guy, regardless of whether he wants to be "friends" or "lovers". Being her friend is the WRONG way to go. Otherwise it'll get to a stage where "he's too good of a friend to risk it." You don't wanna be there.

 

Sorry ShySoul. Until you've successfully done the transition yourself, I'll stand by this opinion.

[ShySoul]

anti,

 

Thank you. I love when someone says that to me, it brings a much needed chuckle to me when I'm feeling down.

 

First, I just want to be clear that I don't mean anything by what I'm saying here and that I'm not offended or anything. I like you and consider you a pal.

 

I've been answering that question for while. Had you asked me a year ago, you may have even had a point. But this year has been interesting. I've never technically had a girlfriend, but a relationship with one girl was so close it might as well have been. It started as friends only. And it progressed to what might as well have been a relationship. We spent the night cuddling (couple nights actually), kissed, said we loved each other and even talked of marriage possibility. Unfortunately, past experiences kind of made her afraid of commitment and things didn't work out. Long story though.

 

I also met and befriended another girl who says she loves me. Cuddled with her as well. Again, outside forces prevents things from going to a relationship. And I've had many other girls flirting with me throughout the year, some saying they thought of me as relationship material. But for one reason or another, my luck doesn't help me and there is something in the way... distance, a relationship, her not being ready for a relationship as she just got out of one. So yes, no girlfriend. But when you have girls who are messaging talking about how they can see themselves making out with you, and two girls saying they love you, that is pretty good sign you are doing something right.

 

Also the advice comes from people I know in happy marriages, most notably by sister. So it's not just me. It's information passed down from men and women who have gone through the whole process and figured out what works.

[antigravity]

ShySoul,

 

Sorry mate, I didn't want to, or mean to offend. However, I completely disagree with the whole "friends first" strategy.

 

It just makes things more complicated than they need to be.

 

Good to hear you've got a few girls chasing after you... So you must be doing something right! But why are all these girls finding reasons to not go to the next step?

 

None of us guys want that...

 

My opinion is, if a girl "loves" you, they don't give a stuff about the past, or other situations.. They go for it.

 

If a girl who I want, gives me an excuse for not being able to be with me, they're gone.... Simple as that.

 

I think we need to be more firm with women, and go after what we want, just like they do! Too many times we're too nice, too friendly, do the right thing. That stuff just doesn't work most of the time. It's unfortunate, because I wish it did (I have very strong morals when it comes to doing the right thing).

 

We need to start doing what's right for us.. And the first step to doing that is letting a girl know fairly early in the piece what we want... If they can't give that to us, what's the point stuffing around being a "friend" when it's not what we want?

 

So to the OP, try and keep things casual, be willing to laugh at yourself, and learn to be spontaneous

[Lion-Guy]

Sorry mate, I didn't want to, or mean to offend. However, I completely disagree with the whole "friends first" strategy.

 

It just makes things more complicated than they need to be.

 

 

I agree. I just tried that with the last girl (I really wasn't interested in her until I got to know her as a friend) anyhow that route didn't work. Be upfront with what you want from the start. It makes things much easier. At least you won't be wondering where you stand.

[ShySoul]

Anti, the girls aren't making excuses. In most cases there were legit reasons and in one case I called it off cause I didn't think it was the right thing to do, us both having just come out of rough spots with other people, seemed like we were rushing it and it wouldn't have been fair to either of us for what felt like a rebound thing. With one of the "loves," its complicated and the situation is current, not past. With the other, she just had a lot of issues that she hadn't resolved. She wasn't ready for it, and the only thing I could do was be her friend and let her know I'm there for her.

 

On being upfront, thats what I'm saying to do. If you don't know someone, how can you really be sure you want to date them? So get to know her first. Then when there is a real connection you say something. In my case, I can't fall for someone unless we are friends. So being friends is the only way to go. And its worked for me without causing extra problems cause the attraction is mutually.You aren't being friends to get to here and then ask her out, you are being friends because it is right, because you are getting comfortable with one another to see if there is a connection there worthy of going on a date for, and because friendship should be your first priority with anyone you don't know. I mean, how can you tell something is there just from looking at a person? How upfront is it to say you like someone when all you know about them is what they look like? Rather superficial and not a true interest in the person.

 

Doing whats right does pay of for a guy. It paid off for my one brother who has got himself a nice relationship. It worked for my other brother who just found out he is going to be a dad. It worked for my sister. It worked for friends. And it'll work for us, just takes time.

 

Carnatic - I really want things to work for you. I know its a pain not having someone. But believe in yourself and have faith. It will work out for the best.

[melrich]

Well I am not sure everyone is on the same page here.

 

There are basically two types of people you can start a relationship with, one you know and one that you didn't know.

 

Both are possible and I have seen both.

 

I don't think anyone is saying be friends with her first with a view to starting a relationship with her later. That is of course having an ulterior motive.

 

I think what is being said is that if you are friends with someone, at some point in that friendship you may realise you want more so you should then make a move.

 

The other option, probably more common is to meet someone you didn't know before, be instantly attracted and try to date them.

 

Both ways can occur. I have certainly seen examples of both.

 

I think that's what is being said

[antigravity]

Hey Melrich... which part of Melbourne are you from?

[melrich]

LOL....I'm in Melbourne...

[antigravity]

LOL....I'm in Melbourne...

 

Okay.. I'll take the hint

 

Great town though!

[Miss M]

I've gotten with 4 girls in the past 3 months

I'm curious... confused... wondering... what does it mean when you say you've "gotten with 4 girls"?...

 

What does "gotten with" actually mean?

[antigravity]

I'm curious... confused... wondering... what does it mean when you say you've "gotten with 4 girls"?...

 

What does "gotten with" actually mean?

 

Sorry... shouldn't use my "aussie" slang!

 

I've met them out at a club/bar and gotten along with them, made out etc.

 

One I saw for about a month (but she was all over the place, and confused me completely), and another I just met last weekend, and we're keeping in touch.

[antigravity]

So being friends is the only way to go[.....] you are being friends because it is right, because you are getting comfortable with one another to see if there is a connection there worthy of going on a date for.

 

Shy, isn't that what 'dating' is all about?? Getting to know someone?

 

You don't have to be 'friends' to learn who someone is... Sounds to me your dating someone but putting yourself in a friendzone while your doing it.

 

What's the point of that? To avoid rejection?

 

If your attracted to someone, you date them with the intention of it going further. If they turn out to be someone you don't connect with, you cut your losses and move on.

 

There is absolutely no need to be a 'friend' during this process...

[Carnatic]

I have to say that I agree with melrich here. There is a difference between meeting someone and wanting to date them from the very start and between getting to know someone first. In Shysoul's case it is perfectly feasible that he is the kind of guy who doesn't feel that kind of attraction until he has gotten to know the girl as a friend. However a lot of guys will probably feel that they know straight off what they want out of the relationship when they meet a girl, and obviously here pretending you just want to be friends so you can get closer to her would be somewhat decietful.

 

So what we can all agree on is that if there is a reason for you wanting to get to know a girl, you should be straight up with it; and dating is still a way of getting to know her, just one where you have been honest that you are interested in her beyond just friendship.

 

In my case, I have to say that I am usually certain when I meet a girl, or within a couple of minutes, that I am interested in her. The fact I then don't tell her or make it obvious is due to me being shy or not knowing how, which goes back to the original reason I posted. The result of this is usually that I end up either in the friendzone or just simply not getting to know her well enough because I'm too shy, worried that she will take me wanting to get to know her as sexual attraction, even though it is and I want her to know really, I'm just too shy about that kind of thing.

 

Thank you everyone for your advice though, I can tell you've put some thought into it, as usually asking for advice I just get tips on how to hold conversation, and questions to ask her, and I do this part well enough.

 

It is difficult for you to give me advice, I know, as you don't know me. An example I should have brought up is that while I am shy about making my sexual attraction visible to the girl I am attracted to, I am not exactly shy in any other way, with my mates, and when I am just talking to the girl when I first meet her.

 

An example would be, if you were in a bar with me, and saw me talking to a girl (in truth she would probably have initiated conversation as being the one to initiate it is something I am shy about for exactly the same reasons as being shy about letting her know my interest in her) you would probably look at me and think, that guy looks pretty confident, he's definitely 'in there' with that pretty girl. I chat to her about all sorts, have a laugh, play games, even sometimes initiate some light physical contact. But when I return to my mates, things so something like this.

 

mate: *nudge nudge wink wink* things went pretty well there aye?

me : er yeah

mate: so did you get her number then?

me : er... no

mate: why the hell not? she was well into you.

me : er... you think, we were just chatting.

mate: dude?!?

 

Thanks for all you help.

 

And Miss M, nice to see you again.

[Miss M]

Sorry... shouldn't use my "aussie" slang!

Thanks. But I don't think it's just "aussie" slang. I've heard guys talk like that in the states too. Suddenly I just had no idea if it meant a phone no., a date, making out, sex... just wasn't sure.

 

Also, when I was much younger I've had guys try to kiss me, (or make out?)... but I guess I really confused them when I said, "but we don't even know anything about each other." I guess women like me are out of luck when everybody else thinks the only way is to "get with her" first, and then find out what's she's like later.

 

And it just might be worth mentioning that women are not all alike. If a guy tries to follow a formula, it just might not make sense to all women. ... (But I've also never fit the norm. ) ... just depends on your ultimate goal... what you're trying to accomplish. I think it would really be too bad (and too sad) if every guy acted just like every other guy.

 

 

And Miss M, nice to see you again.

Hiya Carnatic! Nice to see you too!

[ShySoul]

Shy, isn't that what 'dating' is all about?? Getting to know someone?

 

You don't have to be 'friends' to learn who someone is... Sounds to me your dating someone but putting yourself in a friendzone while your doing it.

 

What's the point of that? To avoid rejection?

 

Dating has connotations and expectations. I don't see the need to go through all of that when you can just be a persons friend and learn everything you need to know about the person. If I see a girl at random, I know nothing about her. I have no clue if she is someone that I would enjoy talking to or even being friends with, let alone forming a relationship with. And I see dating and relationships not as a means of getting to know a person, but of seeing if this is the person I want to spend my life and all eternity with. If I want to get to know someone, I don't have to be on a date to do it. I can learn through the everyday course of events. I learn who she is my the little things she does.

 

If I go out with someone I don't know, we could get to the date and find out we have nothing in common. I'm country, she's rock and roll. I like staying in, she likes going out all the time. I'm spiritual, she's agnostic. And the list goes on. I would have just spent an evening bored and frustrated. However, if I had been friends with her for awhile first, I would have already known there would be nothing there and wouldn't need to waste my time with the date. I also don't need dates to help me see what I want in someone, I've known those things since I was 5 and the list hasn't changed.

 

Each girl I have liked it started off as frriendship. Then something about them sparked my interest. Lately, once I stopped thinking I needed to do anything other then just be me, it's been obvious when the attraction has been mutual. Potential relationships have sprouted from friendships, set back by the worst luck since the Titanic. Hence I can say that the friendzone is an illusion, because I've proven repeatedly that starting as friends can lead to more easily.

 

It's not about rejection, it's about natural attraction. I can't be attracted to someone off of superficial appearance or in a few seconds or minutes, especially attracted enough to want to go out with them. I need something deeper to make me say that she's special.

 

If your attracted to someone, you date them with the intention of it going further. If they turn out to be someone you don't connect with, you cut your losses and move on.

 

That's if your intent is only to date around until you find someone that works. It's like throwing a much of things at the wall and hoping one sticks. It's rather half hazard with no rhyme or reason to it. But my intent is to find the one right person and be able to share with her my entire soul, being able to say I saved it just for her. When I feel something, I feel it deeply. I'm not going to invest my time and my heart into a bunch of things that most likely will not work out. I also can't treat people as means to an end and just say to them "it didn't work out, sorry, next." I'm not going to cut my losses, I'm methodical and bet on winners. I'd rather say, I went on dates with 2 people in my life, and I've been married to one of them for 20 years.

 

So what we can all agree on is that if there is a reason for you wanting to get to know a girl, you should be straight up with it; and dating is still a way of getting to know her, just one where you have been honest that you are interested in her beyond just friendship.

 

Thing is, it also puts pressure on each other knowing that you want more then friendship, when you don't even have the basis for a good relationship (aka friendship) established. And if you don't even know each other, just met, that can be very overwhelming.

 

Being friends first and having mutual feelings naturally develop and saying when it does is just as honest, and more natural. Otherwise you are trying to make something happen, whereas this allows it to happen to you at its own pace.

 

The result of this is usually that I end up either in the friendzone or just simply not getting to know her well enough because I'm too shy, worried that she will take me wanting to get to know her as sexual attraction, even though it is and I want her to know really, I'm just too shy about that kind of thing.

 

You aren't shy normally, so what this sounds like is a mental block. You tell yourself you will get shy around women you are attracted to, and that it won't work out. So thats what ends up happening. What you should do is stop thinking. Live in the moment, don't think or worry about how other people are going to act. Just open your mouth and speak. Talk to her. She isn't going to laugh at you or anything. Believe in yourself. Know that you can do this. You are worried about the "friendzone." So what? Being friends with a girl not interested in more can be a good thing. You can get advice on how to attract other girls. You can see what a girl really wants (which is a lot different then the advice most guys will give). And you tap into the women's network and they possible can introduce you to someone else. That's happened to me twice by being friends with a girl. So not only can friendship lead to relationship with the girl, it can help you in other ways.

 

And it just might be worth mentioning that women are not all alike. If a guy tries to follow a formula, it just might not make sense to all women. ... (But I've also never fit the norm. ) ... just depends on your ultimate goal... what you're trying to accomplish. I think it would really be too bad (and too sad) if every guy acted just like every other guy

 

I agree Miss M. When it comes to dating, love, and relationships, there is no formula. Some girls may like being approached my strangers. In my experience, they find it creepy. So just be yourself. You'll attract someone who likes you for you. And isn't that what we really want?

[Dating Coach]

All the advice people give me is to

I see other guys do it all the time, and it looks like some kind of black art or sophistry. They are talking to the girl, right I understand that, I do that myself; but then 'suddenly' they are clearly flirting or even are kissing. How do guys get from that.... to that?

 

Hi Carnatic!

 

I completely understand and I used to think the same way, and guess what? I used to sit there and observe the same way you are too. With me, it was my brother's friend Rob. Rob was a big time player and got girls like crazy. When I listened to what Rob did and how he approached it, I couldn't figure it out. Rob would have the (from my perspective at the time) worst game out there. He said the stupidest things and was flat out blunt.

 

One time I was sitting at a table at Applebees with him when he went to meet up with some girl he met. This girl showed up with her friend. The whole night I was polite and tame, Rob was... Rob. At one point we are all sitting in a booth, me and Ron on one side and the girls on the other. Rob turned to the girl that came to meet up with him and he said, "Hey, your friend is f'ing hot." right in front of both of them. I couldn't believe it because he was for one, disrespecting the girl who came to meet him, and two, he just bluntly said it. I was just waiting for this to blow up in his face... but it didn't. I have never met a girl who would say that she would tolerate this kind of behavior, much less fall for it, but they both did! By the end of the night they were both competing to get Rob's attention and I was left being the other guy there.

 

Years later I have learned from all of this, and one thing Rob was doing right (because I would never encourage someone to disrespect a lady, or anyone else) was that Rob was blunt and clear about his intentions. He didn't come accross as if he was interested in being pals to go walk in the mall together, or as a guy to call to talk about problems to, Rob was coming accross to these girls as a guy who was interested in them on a romantic level. Everything he did was obvious and clear, and never once did these girls think of Rob as "oh he's a friend of mine".

 

This is why I encourage guys to be obvious and clear to the girl if they are interested. If you want a romantic relationship, then she needs to know that is what you want when you are talking to her. I am not talking about little hints, but leave no room for doubt.

 

Think about it, if a girl is interested in you, do you think that she wants to sit there and go: "Is he interested in me? He's so cool, but I don't think he likes me like that. I mean, he jokes around with me and we have great conversation, but I'm not sure if he is interested in me. If he is, why hasn't he asked me out?" No, just like guys, girls don't like to be stuck in limbo either, they want to know. As a guy, you want to have the confidence to let them know. Ask a girl out, be obvious, flirt, keep the long chats down to a minimum and set up dates, etc. The time you waste with hints can really mess with her head just as much as her reactions mess with yours. Honesty and confidence is the key here.

[Dating Coach]

If I go out with someone I don't know, we could get to the date and find out we have nothing in common. I'm country, she's rock and roll. I like staying in, she likes going out all the time. I'm spiritual, she's agnostic. And the list goes on. I would have just spent an evening bored and frustrated. However, if I had been friends with her for awhile first, I would have already known there would be nothing there and wouldn't need to waste my time with the date.

 

I apologize, but this doesn't quite fit. If time is a concern, then going out on a single date and finding out you don't match doesn't take much time at all. One night? A few hours? However, focusing on someone, being their "friend" and then spending months and months, or even years getting to know them better and falling harder and harder costs a lot of time, especially if you find out that she is not interested at all. That just cost you a ton of time and heart ache, nothing compared to one date one night that didn't pan out.

 

If you don't like dating, don't do it, but don't act like it is a stupid thing because over half of the people on these forums met and started dating their current significant other this way.

 

Hence I can say that the friendzone is an illusion, because I've proven repeatedly that starting as friends can lead to more easily.

 

And how have you proven this exactly? I see no proof at all. Please provide this infallible proof.

 

That's if your intent is only to date around until you find someone that works. It's like throwing a much of things at the wall and hoping one sticks.

 

No that's a horrible analogy and is completely wrong.

 

Thing is, it also puts pressure on each other knowing that you want more then friendship, when you don't even have the basis for a good relationship (aka friendship) established. And if you don't even know each other, just met, that can be very overwhelming.

 

You are talking about yourself again. Most people don't have this feeling of overwhelment.

 

Being friends first and having mutual feelings naturally develop and saying when it does is just as honest, and more natural. Otherwise you are trying to make something happen, whereas this allows it to happen to you at its own pace.

 

I don't understand any of that. It also is completely wrong. I started dating my girlfriend and we naturally became closer and it wasn't forced. We took it slow and let it go from there. This is how it usually works...

 

Some girls may like being approached my strangers. In my experience, they find it creepy.

 

What experience is that? I was unaware you ever tried this... Also, maybe they simply weren't interested, that doesn't mean that they will find it creepy when Joe Hunk asks her for her phone number.

[Carnatic]

Sjhysoul, to be honest, I do know when I meet a girl whether I would want to try and go further with her

 

That's if your intent is only to date around until you find someone that works.

 

That is exactly my intent, and what do you mean 'only' it is a perfectly normal and honourable intention that leads to millions of happy relationships each year.

 

You are worried about the "friendzone." So what? Being friends with a girl not interested in more can be a good thing.

 

Yes it can be rewarding, I have many female friends, but I would not want to spend ages, putting myself through hell trying to get to know a girl who may or may not be interested in me. I want to know, then, if she isn't there is still a good chance I will still be friends with her.

 

I think the thing is here Shysoul, you are quite different in your approach, it works for you, and you find the kinds of girls that you are after, ones that also believe in the spending months getting to know eachother adn believing in the one. The girls I go after aren't the same, and I'm not the same.

 

I want to meet girls, I do meet girls, and then I want to look for ones that I could maybe form a relationship with, trial and error. When I am chatting to a girl, and getting on really well with her, I want her to see me as a possible love interest from the off, cos it gets harder and harder to state your intentions, the more I get to know her, even if I'm not exactly in the friendzone, there's kind of that awkward moment where I have to say 'well I've been crazy about you for the past six months' and risk sounding creepy.