Modern Dating: The Evolution of Courtship for Men and Women

[Batya33]

For me personally marriage is much more freeing than when I was single.  It's parenting that has so many restrictions on my personal/me time.  But those sacrifices are totally worth it no question.  

Yogacat why did you say yes? 

[DarkCh0c0]

Just now, Batya33 said:

For me personally marriage is much more freeing than when I was single. 

Eeek I remember your wedding story, but I don't remember the proposal one! Care to share yours? 🥰 

[yogacat]

8 minutes ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

Awww he sounds like he has a good soul.

Gotta give it to romantic people. They are good at sweeping others off their feet 🥰

He was. He just had some inner demons that surfaced slowly over time.

7 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

For me personally marriage is much more freeing than when I was single.  It's parenting that has so many restrictions on my personal/me time.  But those sacrifices are totally worth it no question.  

Yogacat why did you say yes? 

I said yes because part of me loved him but another part of me was afraid of losing him if I said no. I said yes also because a part of me wanted to give marriage a chance. I also grew up in a culture where marriage is highly valued and considered the ultimate goal for a woman, so there was societal pressure as well.

Looking back, it wasn't the best reason to say yes and I wish I had taken more time to really think about my decision.

[Batya33]

7 minutes ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

Eeek I remember your wedding story, but I don't remember the proposal one! Care to share yours? 🥰 

So my husband proposed in 1997 and 2008.  With the same ring -he saved it! I returned it to him when we cancelled our wedding and broke up in 1997.  We went to Tiffanys on valentines day 1997 just to look - no way was he going to buy there - I told him what I wanted because I knew he wanted to go bigger.  Then he proposed in June.  Second  time around we already knew we'd get married sooner if we were lucky enough to conceive.  He proposed (more of a technicality since we'd already decided to marry) when I was in my second trimester.  In my apartment.  The actual day was a surprise. There's a lovely photo of me holding my ring hand next to my baby bump and smiling down at it.  Then we went to brunch and got married about 7 weeks later.  The first and second time I was really happy - the doubts didn't creep in till later after the first time.  

[Batya33]

4 minutes ago, yogacat said:

He was. He just had some inner demons that surfaced slowly over time.

I said yes because part of me loved him but another part of me was afraid of losing him if I said no. I said yes also because a part of me wanted to give marriage a chance. I also grew up in a culture where marriage is highly valued and considered the ultimate goal for a woman, so there was societal pressure as well.

Looking back, it wasn't the best reason to say yes and I wish I had taken more time to really think about my decision.

I said yes in 1989 (different man!)  kind of for similar reasons.  And ended it 5 days later day after Thanksgiving.

[rainbowsandroses]

23 minutes ago, yogacat said:

He was. He just had some inner demons that surfaced slowly over time.

I said yes because part of me loved him but another part of me was afraid of losing him if I said no. I said yes also because a part of me wanted to give marriage a chance. I also grew up in a culture where marriage is highly valued and considered the ultimate goal for a woman, so there was societal pressure as well.

Looking back, it wasn't the best reason to say yes and I wish I had taken more time to really think about my decision.

I can relate to this^^ and it's amazing to me the more I read your posts yogacat -  you're free-spirited nature and reading now why you said "yes" - how much alike we are! 

I experienced the same thing, like exactly!  And for the same reasons - fear of losing him and family and societal pressures.

I don't allow family or "society" to influence my decisions anymore but I did back then before I came into my own. 

I broke two engagements and walked away from one marriage and several relationships.  I've been called "commitment-phobe," avoidant, 'emotionally damaged,' you name it. 

And perhaps I am those things on some level (to some people) and that's fine!

I'm still looking for love and the "right" person for me and optimistic I will find it!!

Once I lose that spirit I may as well be dead. 

 

 

 

[DarkCh0c0]

47 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

So my husband proposed in 1997 and 2008.  With the same ring -he saved it! I returned it to him when we cancelled our wedding and broke up in 1997.  We went to Tiffanys on valentines day 1997 just to look - no way was he going to buy there - I told him what I wanted because I knew he wanted to go bigger.  Then he proposed in June.  Second  time around we already knew we'd get married sooner if we were lucky enough to conceive.  He proposed (more of a technicality since we'd already decided to marry) when I was in my second trimester.  In my apartment.  The actual day was a surprise. There's a lovely photo of me holding my ring hand next to my baby bump and smiling down at it.  Then we went to brunch and got married about 7 weeks later.  The first and second time I was really happy - the doubts didn't creep in till later after the first time.  

Awww same ring from Tiffany, and in the apartment. How sweet! 🥰

You guys got me in a good mood today!!

[yogacat]

44 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

I can relate to this^^ and it's amazing to me the more I read your posts yogacat -  you're free-spirited nature and reading now why you said "yes" - how much alike we are! 

I experienced the same thing, like exactly!  And for the same reasons - fear of losing him and family and societal pressures.

I don't allow family or "society" to influence my decisions anymore but I did back then before I came into my own. 

I broke two engagements and walked away from one marriage and several relationships.  I've been called "commitment-phobe," avoidant, 'emotionally damaged,' you name it. 

And perhaps I am those things on some level (to some people) and that's fine!

I'm still looking for love and the "right" person for me and optimistic I will find it!!

Once I lose that spirit I may as well be dead. 

I think we are but I do see a lot of stark differences between us as well. I think I am a bit more rigid, a bit more intolerant towards certain things. But I would surmise that in other situations maybe it's the oppposite.

I am not free spirited in the sense that I was/am my own worst critic and very hard on myself. I am learning now to relax a bit and it's hard for me because I know that is the LEAST [not covering the most] that I deserve.

Keep up with your free-spirited nature if it brings joy and fun to your life.🤍

[Batya33]

5 hours ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

Awww same ring from Tiffany, and in the apartment. How sweet! 🥰

You guys got me in a good mood today!!

Oh we just looked at tiffany - no reason to buy from there wiith the markup etc.  It was a thing back then to look at Tiffany!  Thanks!

[Sindy_0311]

 

Just wanted to share this very interesting podcast I just watched 

[rainbowsandroses]

@Sindy_0311I just watched the entire video, and I agree with most of it, I'm curious what do you think?

I wish I could cut and paste some of his most relevant points and discuss but yeah again I think he's spot on in many many respects. 

I'm going to be watching more of him!  He mentioned another one of his videos for women "Never Call A Man First"!

I'm going to watch that one next!

I think this warrants its own thread and encourage others to watch, let's discuss!  The video is 30 minutes.

Thanks again for linking it, love that guy!

[mylolita]

3 hours ago, Sindy_0311 said:

 

Just wanted to share this very interesting podcast I just watched 

I’m 10 minutes in!

 

Very interesting Sindy! 
 

My gut reactive take on the general culture shift is - you throw out the rule book, don’t be baffled when you find no rules!!

 

You take away tradition, and traditional values (feminism replaces traditional gender roles and traditional social etiquettes) and you are left with little to no traditional values. What you have now is this “brave new world!” What is the role of a man? What is the role of a woman? For better or for worse, everyone used to know. Now? What is the role of a woman? Anything and everything she wants it to be, we are told. But if so, where does that leave men? And what happens now?

 

In Georgian England there used to be strict and very clear social etiquette rules regarding everything, not just courtship. These social rules have been broken down with every decade. We’re in some kind of make it up as you go along free fall. I’m not keen on it but I feel like for all the pros and all the cons, it is generally leaving both sexes confused and wondering - so who makes the move now? 
 

Used to be the man - now it’s anyone’s call. Very confusing! 
 

I always say with my own relationship, it may be seen as controversial, but at least it’s crystal clear and very simple! There is never an argument about who did the dishes (because I do them, and have done for 16 years, without exception ever!) or who goes to work and pays for everything (he does!) and so on, so on. There’s no debate about it because we knew from the start without even having to have a talk or discussion. 
 

It may not be everyone’s cup of tea but it is simple and efficient! 
 

I doubt there’s any turning back now - it’s interesting to see where all this will go now the courtship rule book has been thrown outta there! 
 

x

[mylolita]

The appetite for commitment, seriousness and marriage/children has dwindled massively too, for both genders.

 

x

[Kwothe28]

5 hours ago, Sindy_0311 said:

Just wanted to share this very interesting podcast I just watched

He just like me, but chocolate. 

He did summarize pretty well all we talked on thread. 

[Sindy_0311]

4 hours ago, rainbowsandroses said:

I'm curious what do you think?

Well I usually agree with everything this man says so I do agree with what he said in this one.

Maybe it’s a bit to simple but I truly think that technology is signing the end of long lasting and committed relationships (by technology I mean men becoming more sedentary and thus testosterone decrease, the use of porn, the online dating thing, the comparison/competition on social media and so on…) it has been surveyed that women are more driven than men to get committed relationships, so maybe we (women) won’t be able to sustain them if they (men) no longer find any assets in entertaining those kind of relationships. 

 

[Batya33]

Just as with the phone sex lines in the 1980s and the bar/club scene ,availability of strip clubs, escorts etc - all of those services and being able to call a sex line - has nothing to do with fundamentally changing people. 

People who want that will find that and if it's made easier it will be easier. 

People who want a committed relationship won't suddenly not want one -more than temporarily if it's like a candy store momentarily to be able to swipe left or right or whatever - because of what technology can provide. 

People who want to casually date but not have casual sex won't suddenly change because porn is available or dating sites that are more for hookups.  I simply give people more credit -most people don't act like passive sheep.  Some do, some are wavering in their values so they're more prone to become focused or addicted to porn I suppose.  A man who enjoys courting will keep doing it. For sure traditions change so it might look different- courting, communication - but I don't think people's values and goals when it comes to dating/hookups/sex/romantic relationships change dramatically "because of" technology.

[yogacat]

I'm considering whether some men may be hesitant to court women due to emotional selfishness on the woman's part. Maybe there is an underlying belief that a woman's intentions may solely revolve around her own desires and needs, rather than truly getting to know and understand the man during the courtship process. Like a dance, he wants to trust that the woman's steps are genuine and in tune with his own.

But then, I've read a lot from men that choose to pursue or court women that is showing no or very little reciprocity. And as they try harder to get her to notice them, thinking she is just coyly playing hard to get, or maybe she is just hesitant and guarded due to past experiences, the man may start to feel like he is constantly jumping through hoops to please her rather than truly getting to know her.

I think somewhere along the way it got a bit lop-sided in terms of courtship. Rarely are women the ones doing all the wooing. 

[rainbowsandroses]

If you have not watched the video, I highly recommend...

[LootieTootie]

I finally watched the video - had to come back and watch it. I think for the most part, he really made a convincing argument. We brought this up about men's low testosterone levels. He touched on this and went into a bit further, even calling men nowadays "unhealthy." There are also truths to females loving bad boys, and truth in what he said about the modern landscape impact on courting/dating - as in why men don't or can't really court/woo a woman as much as they used to back in the "good old days"

I do like the video, but I don't think I would recommend it to anyone single and is out there dating with intention. 

 

 

[Sindy_0311]

3 hours ago, LootieTootie said:

I do like the video, but I don't think I would recommend it to anyone single and is out there dating with intention. 

Thank you for watching. I'm being curious, why wouldn't you recommend it?

I definitely would because it helps understanding the new dynamic everyone seems to complain of and that it has nothing to do with one's value on the "dating market". I'm dating, with intention sometimes (depends on the guy), and I found this video very helpful to better understand why men (or women) became more lazy. 

Now for the future of long term relationships its not very encouraging, I agree, but at least we understand that it's just a general tendency and that it (again) has nothing to do with our own value as a person. 

[Batya33]

I definitely went for bad boy types especially early on in dating.  What never changed for me though -wanting someone with an edge, who would keep me on my toes but not at all in a bad boy way - and not wanting -and sometimes being repulsed by -men who behaved in passive/doormat/yes tell me how high to jump cause I love you so-ways -sometimes referred to as a "nice guy".  Keep me on my toes meaning - smart, unafraid to express opinions, unafraid -once serious and close - to challenge me - an opinion I might have, a choice I might be thinking of- from a position of confidence -not arrogance -and respect for me and for us as a couple.  I've seen how essential this is as parents too - which is not something I would have predicted -to this extent- when dating.  

I know of women who go for bad boy types - it's not a maturity thing -it can be- but not always.  For me it was probably maturity to an extent but the thing is I've seen women swing from -no more bad boys -to the passive sort I described above -and they settle.  To me that's not a healthy choice either in dating or relationships.

[catfeeder]

Loved the video 

On 4/29/2024 at 8:23 AM, Sindy_0311 said:

Just wanted to share this very interesting podcast I just watched 

Loved the video and have listened to a few more while milling about, which confirmed what I believe is this man's underlying theme: you can flip cultural observations or rules on their heads, because there's nothing consistent about generalized behaviors that applies when two people are the RIGHT match.

He flat out says that even the most casual, generally unengaged guy who has shut down on courting for any reason, will step up if he meets the RIGHT woman. In another video, he raises the reasons people claim a woman shouldn't call a guy first, and he points out why those don't apply when she's dealing with the RIGHT man.

He challenges the idea that certain behaviors will lead to successes or misses, when the bottom line is whether or not you're dealing with someone who mutually matches your level of interest in one another. The right match dissolves all of that other stuff, while lousy matches perpetuate more of it.

This is why there's no point is being discouraged by the behaviors of the masses when you're not looking for a mass of people as your partner. If your dating pool gets reduced down to ONE, you've done a great job.

[yogacat]

8 hours ago, Batya33 said:

I definitely went for bad boy types especially early on in dating.  What never changed for me though -wanting someone with an edge, who would keep me on my toes but not at all in a bad boy way - and not wanting -and sometimes being repulsed by -men who behaved in passive/doormat/yes tell me how high to jump cause I love you so-ways -sometimes referred to as a "nice guy".  Keep me on my toes meaning - smart, unafraid to express opinions, unafraid -once serious and close - to challenge me - an opinion I might have, a choice I might be thinking of- from a position of confidence -not arrogance -and respect for me and for us as a couple.  I've seen how essential this is as parents too - which is not something I would have predicted -to this extent- when dating.  

I know of women who go for bad boy types - it's not a maturity thing -it can be- but not always.  For me it was probably maturity to an extent but the thing is I've seen women swing from -no more bad boys -to the passive sort I described above -and they settle.  To me that's not a healthy choice either in dating or relationships.

Bad boys were a fun era for a while - I dated one and became... well, bored?

More than anything else - just bored listening to the things he said or didn't say - not a dumb guy, not by a long shot but missing a level of curiosity I personally value.

I was really into the idea  - what can I say-  but the reality let me keep moving on.  

I think the whole bad boy thing is really mainly about the sizzle - I may not be a sin - but we'll have fun - VERSUS - all those things you listed above.

[Batya33]

48 minutes ago, yogacat said:

Bad boys were a fun era for a while - I dated one and became... well, bored?

More than anything else - just bored listening to the things he said or didn't say - not a dumb guy, not by a long shot but missing a level of curiosity I personally value.

I was really into the idea  - what can I say-  but the reality let me keep moving on.  

I think the whole bad boy thing is really mainly about the sizzle - I may not be a sin - but we'll have fun - VERSUS - all those things you listed above.

It had some allure and excitement for a time. 

[rainbowsandroses]

What's everyone's definition of "bad boy" or "player"?  I think these terms get tossed around a lot and tbh not sure what they even mean. 

Bad boy?  IMO, a man with an "edge," who dances to his own drummer, does not necessarily conform to what "society" dictates is right, but is true to himself BUT who also has strong boundaries, good character and lives his life with honesty and integrity.

Takes no BS from me or anyone!  Not that I intentionally dole out BS but he will point out if I am being unreasonable or overly emotional over a particular situation.. IOW, does NOT walk on eggshells and NOT afraid to "rock the boat."   

To me it does NOT mean a man who treats me disrespectfully or insensitively, lies to me or basically treats me like crap, THAT describes a man who is an a$$hole which is a completely different thing.  I cannot imagine how any women no matter what her age would go for that.

I will admit that even now in my 30s, I still like a bit of the bad boy, who can balance a bit of uncertainty and distance with safety and closeness.  Otherwise, I can get restless, bored and no longer feel inspired and will ultimately lose my attraction.  After so many years of dating and relationships, I KNOW this about myself and accept it.

Player?  To me he is a man who enjoys multi-dating and who is honest about it and who attracts and is successful with women.

Player gets tossed around far too much imo, usually by women who want more of a commitment and when he's not interested in that, even when he's honest about it, in many women's eyes, he's a "player."  

A player is NOT a man who lies to women, deceives women, tells women he wants a relationship/commitment when he knows he doesn't just to get her into bed or whatever.  Just like the the bad boy, that simply makes him an a$$hole.

Re the video. I think what Stephen said about men become sedentary - lying around playing video games, on line sports games versus playing sports in real life, messaging women versus getting OUT of the house and meeting women IRL, causes their testosterone levels to drop.

I have read that exercise - working out, playing sports, even doing yard work can increase testosterone which has many benefits for men including elevating mood and energy levels, overall sense of well-being, sexual function and desire for a real live women versus an on line image.

I think this is what Stephen meant by men becoming "unhealthy,"  

The major thing that stood out about him (for me) is that he is not biased against or for one particular gender.  He encourages "understanding" between the sexes which I agree with and have posted about it.

And I think he generally has a pretty good understanding of both female nature and male nature which makes him unique and why I look forward to watching more of his videos!