Getting fed up with friend's poor communication and organisation

[Tinydance]

I'm 37 and I have a male friend who's 38. I've known him for about eight years. He's a nice guy, very chill and calm and never has anything bad to say about anyone. He hasn't officially been diagnosed as being on the autism spectrum, but his brother was. Also he's had people like his lecturers at university suggest he might be on the spectrum and I've noticed it a lot as well. He's a good friend and part of my friendship group but I must admit I never felt super close to him.  I usually preferred seeing him in a group situation rather than one-on-one.

There have been some things in the past (only a few) where his communication or ability to read the situation wasn't very good. But it didn't happen often or on a big scale so it didn't bother me as much. 

For example, one time I was having friends over for a Christmas Eve dinner. After dinner a few of us decided to go to the bottle shop to get a few alcoholic drinks. Some people went to the shop but some gave other people money or said they'd pay them back or to get them alcohol. He never said anything. When we got back from the shop, he said to me: "So did you get me alcohol?" Like, he just assumed I'd get it for him but he never asked or offered me any payment or anything.

Also recently I was having a board games night at my place. We're acquaintances with this older woman, though it's mainly him who hangs out with her. I said to him that I actually don't like her that much because I don't feel that I click or get along with her well. But when I was having my board games night, he asked if this woman could come. I know this part was my fault, but I gave in and said "OK" but I didn't really want her there. This was two months before my board games event though and I hadn't talked to that woman about it at all. On the night of the board games, an hour after it started, he tells me: "X woman is coming, I invited her and gave her the details and the address". I understand I'd previously said it was OK but he never told me he gave her all the details or that she was coming. And I previously mentioned I don't like her that much too and he just disregarded that.

Recently I was organising a trip to a rural city to go see the Elvis Presley art gallery exhibition which was here only a limited time and came from his Graceland ranch. We are in Australia by the way, not US. My friend loves art galleries so I asked if him and his girlfriend want to go there with my boyfriend and I. He said his girlfriend might be going interstate to see her sister, but that he REALLY, really wanted to go, even just the three of us.

A few weeks in advance I began looking up accommodation, but noticed there was barely anything available and almost everything was sold out. I knew this was due to it being the last weekend of the Elvis exhibition and also that they had some other big, popular events in that rural city. I mentioned that we really needed to book accommodation and sent three links to places available. I asked him a couple of times to let me know what he thinks of the accommodation, but he didn't really reply in our group Facebook chat and say anything. I did actually explain that there is barely any accommodation left.

I also mentioned twice that we should book Elvis Presley and asked should I book for us? The entry into the exhibition was timed sessions so we needed to book the same time together. I said the Elvis exhibition was going to sell out because it was the last weekend it was on. My friend didn't reply.

In the end my boyfriend and I booked our own accommodation and my friend said him and his girlfriend would stay with a friend of theirs living in the area. I decided I couldn't wait any longer to book Elvis because it was only a week beforehand. All the exhibition sessions turned out to be sold out except only two on a weekday (Friday). I really wanted to go so I got myself a ticket quickly and I had to take a day off work. But my boyfriend and my friend and his girlfriend missed out on the tickets.

I posted in the group chat to my friend that I'm not happy his communication had been so bad and he wasn't replying to any of my messages. I pointed out I mentioned a few times we really needed to book things. He wasn't really that apologetic and said: "Yeah we were too quiet sorry".

Then I was organising to go to an alpaca farm and my boyfriend and friend's girlfriend wanted to go. I asked my friend: "What do you think about the alpaca farm? The woman there needs us to confirm as there is only a certain time available." And my friend said: "I'm indifferent towards it, though alpacas are cute". I was annoyed because I needed a yes or no answer to know if to book. I then tagged him in the group chat and said: "I really need a yes or no answer, I'll wait for you to reply before booking". He still didn't reply for a day or more and he saw the message. I then tagged him again and said: "I'm waiting for you to answer". Then he answered "Yes I'll go".

Then he asked my boyfriend and I to meet for lunch in that rural city. We agreed on a place and I said it closes at 2 p.m., and we'll meet there at 1 p.m. He agreed. The next day he messaged and said "I'll be there at 2 p.m." I told him I mentioned the place closes at 2 p.m. and he was like "Oh I messed up". He only arrived after 2:15.

The next day we had a booking for 6:30 p.m. to see a light projection festival together. We said we'll see the festival, then have dinner together the four of us. At 6:10 p.m. he messaged us saying him and his girlfriend are heading into a restaurant for dinner. At 6:30 p.m., my boyfriend and I were walking into the light festival and I messaged my friend asking if they're coming in. My friend said no because they only just ordered their food. I said, well, we are going in since the booking is 6:30. And he was just like "okie dokie then". They were 45 + minutes late and messaged to meet us there, but we had already finished seeing the whole thing.

We were really annoyed that they just didn't respect any of our plans together and we went to dinner alone. We mentioned where we were and at 9:00 p.m. they walked in there to see us. My friend said he actually realised he messed up, his communication was bad and he was sorry and offered to buy us a drink. I thought that was a big breakthrough because before that he didn't seem to think he was being rude at all and all was fine.

Two days ago he invited me to go to another huge light projection festival in our city, but my boyfriend and I had already seen it. I asked him what time are they going to the festival and that we could just meet for dinner first. He said "we'll go to the festival about 6:00 p.m." Then he said to me we'll go to this particular Italian restaurant for dinner. I asked what time and he also said "about 6 p.m."  I said: "I can be there at 6 p.m. but please let me know what time". And he was like "yep".

Then a day went by and I didn't hear anything so I was thinking he's not going to book anything and we won't get in because it was a Friday night in the city. So I asked if he booked and offered I can do it. He then said 6:00 p.m. wasn't available so he booked 5 p.m. because it was available. The thing is I actually only finish work at 5 p.m. but he didn't contact me at all before he made the booking. I said unfortunately I can't go with them because I finish work at 5 p.m. And he was literally just like: "OK". Him, his girlfriend and our other friend are going but I was basically excluded. And he didn't apologise or seem to feel bad about it at all.

Also he didn't look up or book the big light projection festival he invited us to. I said to them in group chat it was extremely busy when we went there with my boyfriend. My friend's girlfriend checked and said it's all sold out, as it's also the last weekend of it. My friend was the one who invited us to the light festival!

I was really annoyed and angry so at 4 p.m. yesterday I sent him a few messages explaining my feelings. I don't think I was rude but I said his communication and organisation is really bad and tried to explain what I need to change. He saw the first message on Facebook but then didn't "see" any of the others I sent. And I saw he was on Facebook all night uploading lots of photos to his page. Now it's 9 a.m. the next day and he hasn't "seen" my messages. I think maybe he just left me on read?

How would you feel about all this? Do you think I should try again to be clear to him his behaviour isn't acceptable? Or should I just stop trying to make any plans with him and distance myself? He didn't use to be as bad with organising plans, especially not one-on-one. In groups he seems to have no ability to organise or communicate and also he's been acting like this since he's been with his girlfriend for eight months.

 

[Batya33]

I think it's on you. You were forewarned that he is flaky.  Flaky doesn't mean on the spectrum nor does related to someone on the spectrum mean anything.  I know families where one member is, the other isn't etc etc.  He's continuously shown himself to be flaky and unreliable and yet you continue to make high level complicated plans meaning that involve buying tickets in advance, booking specific times, etc. Why? I'd also avoid discussing this in a group chat -just because he's flaky doesn't justify you calling him out in that manner.

I have a friend I've known since the late 90s.  For the past 7 years she's been flaky about staying in touch and in particular will regularly send me messages "let's catch up by phone!" - once or twice I scheduled a call with her and she flaked.  So I was done.  Now when she contacts me I will reply "sounds good -look forward to hearing from you!" She recently contacted me again -same thing -had been close to a year this time. I replied "sounds good -after August __ is better for me.  Look forward to hearing from you! I've stopped resending my number, stopped putting in any effort.  If she calls me and I can talk I will.  But my boundary is not to waste time scheduling when it's not gonna happen.  

[Tinydance]

4 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I think it's on you. You were forewarned that he is flaky.  Flaky doesn't mean on the spectrum nor does related to someone on the spectrum mean anything.  I know families where one member is, the other isn't etc etc.  He's continuously shown himself to be flaky and unreliable and yet you continue to make high level complicated plans meaning that involve buying tickets in advance, booking specific times, etc. Why? I'd also avoid discussing this in a group chat -just because he's flaky doesn't justify you calling him out in that manner.

I have a friend I've known since the late 90s.  For the past 7 years she's been flaky about staying in touch and in particular will regularly send me messages "let's catch up by phone!" - once or twice I scheduled a call with her and she flaked.  So I was done.  Now when she contacts me I will reply "sounds good -look forward to hearing from you!" She recently contacted me again -same thing -had been close to a year this time. I replied "sounds good -after August __ is better for me.  Look forward to hearing from you! I've stopped resending my number, stopped putting in any effort.  If she calls me and I can talk I will.  But my boundary is not to waste time scheduling when it's not gonna happen.  

No actually you misunderstood me...When I said I messaged him about my feelings, that was privately in PM just to him on Facebook Messenger. I was not saying anything about him in group chat. He was actually not that flakey in the past, or these behaviours were more low scale. He usually seemed to prefer to catch up one-on-one and he was fine organising plans just with me alone. The only thing really he'd done a couple of times was he owed me and other people money for trips and activities and he wasn't paying back for a few weeks until reminded once or twice. So in that sense yes I see what you mean that he showed himself to be flakey.

Recently since he's been with his girlfriend and plans are being organised in group chat with a few friends, his communication and organisational abilities seem non existent. I know he used to go very quiet in groups of people and basically didn't talk. So I'm not sure if he has trouble with communication when it's not with only one person?

We have actually gone to that rural city and to that art gallery together a couple of times before but it was only the two of us and everything was fine.

[Batya33]

Oh I get it - you private messaged him -totally get it!  Yes, he's changed. Likely because he's putting in his organizational effort into his girlfriend, her family, her friends.  I wouldn't analyze it beyond that.  My husband is reserved and on the quiet side and has no issue making and keeping all sorts of plans.  Sounds like his life has changed, as has his priorities.

[Andrina]

1 hour ago, Tinydance said:

I sent him a few messages explaining my feelings. I don't think I was rude but I said his communication and organisation is really bad and tried to explain what I need to change

Wow, you sure give a lot of chances. I've never tried this many times with someone who has shown me they are not timely and reliable. For people whose friendship I still valued, or a family member who will always be in my life, who have problems of being late and other flaky things like you've mentioned, I have altered my activities with them. With a former friend, if I invited her to a holiday gathering with a group of people to my home, it was irrelevant if she didn't show up, and we didn't wait for her to arrive to eat. If she was late, oh well. But I would never plan on meeting her at a restaurant if it was just she and I, because I'm a timely person and I don't wait for people.

No longer plan things with him that you've mentioned, whereas if it involves him paying you, making a reservation, or anything where he has the capability of angering you because he's ruined things that required precise planning.

I've never called someone out on their behavior in these kinds of situations. I adapt in ways I've mentioned, or I start letting the relationship fade away if it's more upsetting or frustrating than satisfying.

As you can see, calling him out didn't have the outcome you might have expected.

[greendots]

I don't like suggesting this, but I'd let him go as he doesn't seem to value how caring you are. If he wants to remain your friend, it's up to him to step up to the plate and show you through actions that he means it.

[reinventmyself]

I would put blinders on and make your plans.  Give him information and it's on him to show up, be late or none of the above. Don't worry about him or let it ruin your fun. Stay consistent, stop accommodating and he'll either realize he keeps missing the boat or he'll find other ways to entertain himself.

I would take his offers to plan with a grain of salt.  If it appears something that you can't count on, don't agree to go.

If what youre doing isn't working, do something different.

If you can document incidents this lengthy about how one person frustrates you to this degree, just reconsider the friendship.  You mentioned he wasn't that close of a friend to begin with.

 

[Rose Mosse]

20 hours ago, Tinydance said:

How would you feel about all this? Do you think I should try again to be clear to him his behaviour isn't acceptable? Or should I just stop trying to make any plans with him and distance myself? He didn't use to be as bad with organising plans, especially not one-on-one. In groups he seems to have no ability to organise or communicate and also he's been acting like this since he's been with his girlfriend for eight months.

The sad part about distancing yourself from someone who has changed is that it's not actually what you want and I really empathize with you because it feels like you've lost someone in your friend group that you can do things with or call up and invite for outings like the above. It sounds like you double date quite a bit and enjoy having that couple fun or group date. 

What are the odds that it's his girlfriend who's a little wary of the double dates or is possessive or some other reason? Ie wanting to just have time with him or not want to be around you or another woman? She may not like you or she may feel threatened by you. A plan may be in place and she is the one behind the fickleness and not showing up?

He's admitted a few times he's made mistakes or messed up but it sounds like he's only paying you lip service and to keep the peace. It doesn't sound like he cares enough and your FB messages were quite critical if you're telling someone their organization is bad. If he does read them, I'm sure he shares them with his girlfriend. They may distance themselves from you anyway. Tinydance, I understand where you're coming from but it's ok to let go of someone who isn't much of a friend.

[Cherylyn]

You never felt super close to him so don't put forth any effort to have him as a close friend.

It was presumptuous of your friend to expect you to buy alcohol for him yet he did not contribute paying for it.  Make sure this doesn't become a habit of his and if it is, you'll have to tell him to help pay for alcohol before purchasing it or don't buy it for him.  Settle this prior to the purchase; not after.

When you told him that it was OK to for him to bring this woman to your board games night, he did not have to tell you details about giving your address to her.  Since you gave him permission to invite her to your house, it was a done deal.   In the future, if you do not want certain people at your house or your hosted event, speak up from the beginning instead of grudgingly going against your will. 

I agree, your friend is unreliable and undependable.  His communication or timely correspondence with you is poor.

My sister falls into this category.  Recently she arranged for my relatives and in-laws to meet at a local restaurant and changed the venue SEVERAL times before finally deciding on the restaurant destination.  Meanwhile, everyone is confused and trying to ascertain the correct, final restaurant location.  At the last minute, she made some lame excuse about her maid not leaving her house yet so she was unable to attend the restaurant rendezvous which SHE initiated and arranged.  Really?  This chronic, habitual flakiness has happened numerous times in the past.  Her brain is in space.  She is ditzy and scatterbrained.  She is the most unorganized, non-committal person I know.   I've known some acquaintances and friends who are similar but my sister is the worst.  I no longer rely on her and automatically consider her as an irresponsible person.  It's easier to draw these quick conclusions because I save myself a lot of disappointment and anger.

Regarding your friend, no, don't try to be clear to him about his unacceptable behavior.  Don't lecture him.  He is who he is and you can't change him.  You can't change anybody on this Earth.  They are who they are.  A leopard cannot change its spots.  Yes, stop trying to make plans and distance yourself.  He's not a close friend so don't treat him as one. 

Don't initiate socializing, events, meals, etc.  Decline regularly and if he eventually asks you why, this is the opportunity to explain why.  People need to learn a lesson by not enjoying your company.  Either they'll miss you and become a better person or they don't care and will dismiss you.  Let that be your guide.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[catfeeder]

While I make room for one accidental flake, after that my own organizing style changes to cover myself going forward. I'll say, "BF and I will be in X City on Date, dining at 5:30 PM at X restaurant. You're welcome to join us. If you can make it, you'll need to phone the restaurant to change our reservation to 3 or 4 people. We also have tickets for X show at 7 PM, and you're also welcome to join us there if you'd like to buy a ticket for that time slot...."

Let HIM do the work. If you doubt he'll show if that's the case, then let his lazy-azz become someone else's babysitting problem.

This doesn't mean you need to ditch the friend, but you can limit your exposure to whatever context for which he's willing to step up and show up. That's not ditching--it's allowing him to ditch himself if he doesn't want to be thoughtful.

I wouldn't bother speaking to him about this, I'd just change MY behavior. 

[Tinydance]

Hey guys, sorry I didn't reply much to the previous comments on my post. I really do appreciate everyone taking the time to respond! I would like some more opinions on this if possible.

Basically I'm really torn as to what to do about this friend....He is a nice guy and he has always really cared about our friendship. He reaches out and wants to hang on. Also sometimes he'll go to markets or festivals and he sees things I'd like there and buys them for me as gifts.

I'm pretty sure that he does have high functioning autism because he has signs of it and other people noticed it as well. I'm not 100% sure though because he didn't actually get the medical diagnosis. He tried seeing a doctor about it but the doctor actually said to him that because he was already in his 30's basically not to worry about putting any labels on himself.

The thing is I've realised that these types of things where he's rude and his communication is terrible have actually been happening on a semi regular basis. But they've gotten worse since he's had a girlfriend for the last year or so. 

Looking back on it I realised that during COVID lockdowns a few things like this happened. We had very long and strict lockdowns. We used to play online videos games and virtually watch movies in my friendship group to help us stay connected. I remember a few times we were playing video games on Discord and he would sometimes not be responding in voice chat, even if he already logged into the game. He'd be gone maybe about ten minutes in some cases but we didn't know what happened. Then he'd come back and he'd say he went to the toilet, went to get food, was talking to his family, etc. But he never said that he was going anywhere so we had no idea where he was.

Then one time we organised to virtually watch a movie and chat on Facebook Messenger with him, another female friend and I. He did say he had been having trouble with his phone and the battery was running out fast and he always had to keep charging it.

We started watching the movie and for the first few minutes he was talking in the Facebook chat. Then he just disappeared. My friend and I kept asking where he was and was everything OK. We tried calling him but phone was just going to voicemail. We watched the whole two hour movie on our own and didn't know where he went.

Then later on he returned to the Facebook chat and said his phone died and he was charging it. He said he did watch the whole movie on the TV with his Mum. The thing is, apart from the phone he also actually has a laptop. So he could have used the laptop to message us. Also I have his mother on Facebook so she could have messaged me to explain. Not to mention the phone battery still should have got some charge even before the two hours of movie was up and he should have had enough battery to let us know. We agreed he'd watch the movie WITH US and he didn't really have any barriers to do so. E.g. Watching on his laptop. I let him know that I was really annoyed and that he just can't disappear without letting us know what is actually going on.

The other day he asked me to virtually watch some movies so we did and it was good. Last night later in the evening he messaged me again and asked if I'd like to virtually watch a movie. I said sure and we discussed a couple of movies but they were old and I wasn't able to actually get them. I then said do you have any other suggestions? He didn't respond for 25 minutes and I was sitting there checking my Messenger in case he replied. Then he came back and said: "Sorry I was out walking with my girlfriend." What??!! And I was like, but you asked me to watch a movie and we were discussing it then you just didn't reply. I said again he needs to communicate and reply and not just disappear. He has to let me know what is happening. I said I was just going to go to bed. And he was like: "OK good night". Then he messaged me again and was like: "I just watched this movie and it was weird".

He really just doesn't seem to get it at all??!! 

I have tried to talk to him about this a number of times and I thought I tried to be specific and direct. At first I said: "Communication is really important" but then realised if he's on the autism spectrum that maybe it's just a vague statement if someone doesn't understand how to communicate. So I described specifically how I'd like him to communicate and what I'd like him to do.

Do you think there is any other way I could explain it or do anything in case he's on the spectrum? Or it's just a lost cause?

[Batya33]

He does get it.  He chooses not to make reliability to you a priority. He obviously knows how to be reliable and in the examples you gave it's ridiculously easy to be reliable -doesn't even have to leave his home.  Please.  He is able to have a girlfriend and plan a walk with her and leave the house etc and he plans dates with her yes -and shows up.  Nothing to do with whether he is on the spectrum.  He is not telling you he is going through a medical or mental condition that impairs his ability to be reliable.

I used to talk with my childhood best friend about once a week for years when we reconnected in 2008 through FB.  We had a loose "phone date".  Then she became unbearable to deal with and I kept my distance and limited my contact to occasional texting. 

Partly she was unreliable -she knew how hard it was for me to meet for lunch or dinner given child care and she'd be really late (so that I'd have to leave early as my child couldn't sit that long) or if I wanted one on one time she'd invite her sister without telling me who was incredibly negative and had a potty mouth to the waitstaff and in front of my child and would interrupt us regularly.  

We got back in touch texting after a hiatus during covid.  Except now she was flaky about responding so I let it go.  I went out of my way to tell her about a zoom meeting where our former classmates were going to virtually meet from all over the world - I even texted her right before and she flippantly said -oh right I forgot. 

She showed up briefly, would not look into the camera, spoke in a monotone and then disappeared I think.  I believe she is suffering from depression as she has in the past and she gained so much weight again -she yo yos.  In the last few months she promised to text me -on two occasions -and last time was one month ago.  Ball is in her court.  I care about her but I'm telling you this because I also care about me.  Who needs the stress of chasing someone? Who needs the annoyance of having to reach out "again?" Or give "another chance?"

I love that your friend gets you gifts and thinks of you in this way -those are lovely gestures -so special! But you live a life where- understandably -you make time for friends -often very specific times -and if you can't count on him for basically showing up -what's the point? You have to balance it.  For me it would be a dealbreaker.  Also your life is um going to get way more busy very soon right? Even more you will need reliable people in your corner.  I know it's hard and thanks for the update and your thoughtful and fair description.

[Seraphim]

Ask yourself how successful it will be to demand someone change their neurological type ? Difference in communication is a hallmark of being Autistic. Can you accept him for being Autistic? Can you accept him for what he offers ?

As you know my son is Autistic and he communicates when he feels like it. Executive function is also highly affected in Autistic people. Here is a graphic to help. I am sure in your job you have learned about executive dysfunction. It is a real thing. Many Autistic people are also ADHD and easily distracted. 
 

My whole house is not neurotypical so maybe I accept the difference more easily. They are also people I adore and love. 
 

It comes down to you can accept neurological differences or you can’t . 

[Batya33]

If he is diagnosed yes if not it seems like he's prioritizing his girlfriend over being reliable with his friends.

[Seraphim]

12 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

If he is diagnosed yes if not it seems like he's prioritizing his girlfriend over being reliable with his friends.

However, lack of diagnosis doesn’t mean a person isn’t Autistic. They don’t suddenly become that because they have a paper. Due to age it is highly likely he was missed. My own son wasn’t diagnosed until a week before his 17th birthday and he was born in 1997. He suffered a lot of abuse from society for his difficulties. So much so he only prefers for the most part other Autistic people because they don’t judge his neurology and differences and disabilities. 

[Batya33]

4 minutes ago, Seraphim said:

However, lack of diagnosis doesn’t mean a person isn’t Autistic. They don’t suddenly become that because they have a paper. Due to age it is highly likely he was missed. My own son wasn’t diagnosed until a week before his 17th birthday and he was born in 1997. He suffered a lot of abuse from society for his difficulties. So much so he only prefers for the most part other Autistic people because they don’t judge his neurology and differences and disabilities. 

Oh I didn't say or mean that.  My personal opinion is he changed and became flakier and less reliable.  Also he is not telling her he feels he has issues more than just being typically unreliable.  So that to me is a sign also that this is simply something he's choosing not to do for a good friend.  In this individual situation I doubt his behavior has to do with spectrum or any such diagnosis.  Not because he hasn't been diagnosed.

I had a friend for over a year who then shared with me that she is bipolar.  Diagnosed.  It was not a big deal to me either way. My dad was and maybe I'd told her that?

Oddly right after that she became unreliable and flaky and very self-absorbed.  Not my imagination -directly affected our plans.  I had to distance myself from making plans with her. I don't know if sharing that with me made her more comfortable behaving that way.  She never connected it for me -never said she was in a bad way and didn't feel like going out etc. I can be friends with people who behave this way but I rarely will make plans that would involve me being inconvenienced in that way. 

[spinstermanquee]

On 7/29/2022 at 7:13 PM, Cherylyn said:

Don't initiate socializing, events, meals, etc.  Decline regularly and if he eventually asks you why, this is the opportunity to explain why.  People need to learn a lesson by not enjoying your company.  Either they'll miss you and become a better person or they don't care and will dismiss you.

This ^^^  Spot on!