Feeling like a failure: from university to skilled trades.

[Avro1986]

Hi everyone,

 

I am feeling really low right now. I completed two M.Sc. (biology, biochemistry), couldn't find stable work in my field, so one year ago, I started industrial flat roofing. Now, I am completing an apprenticeship. If you read some of my past posts, I got kicked out of my PhD due to bull**** politics. Anyways, I survived my second major depression. Now, I applying to vet school and the military as an officer.

 

I'll tell you one thing I enjoy about the skilled trades: the outdoors, earning potential, and the fact that you can't outsource trades. Right after school, I worked in a dairy farm for 1 year; I loved it but the money was not there. Still, I got to realize that I enjoy physical work (with some mental stimulus).

 

Now, I am going through another depressive episode: all my life, I was obsessed with social status (that's another story). I enjoy roofing, but I feel like a "second-class" person for not being a top white collar person (doctor, scientist), and I feel that women look down on me, given that women tend be hypergamous. I am a tutor volunteer for children services, I do sports, and I think that I overall a good person. However, I feel that it's not enough to gain affection and status. I had a girl turned down a date once I told her I was a roofing apprentice. It's like being told: "You're not worthy of interest"

 

For quite some time now, I have thought of suicide as an honourable way to go (better than violence towards others). As in: "if you're not good enough now for job and love, you'll never be good enough". Still, it's not logical. I know people with science PhD who can't get work in their field, but certified tradespeople can make 70k+year and more with side jobs, AND they are not stuck in an office.

 

I know I should be ashamed to call tradespeople "second-class" because we need them to run society, but status is a reality of human society, whether we like it or not. Still, I remember my grandfather who used to tell me: "prestige doesn't pay your groceries. Be practical." My dad added: "If someone gives a crap about your status first, then you should be very careful about their intentions".

 

Anyways, I am starting to realize that we have been told a lie: "never giver up on your passion/dream". Instead, I prefer Mike Rowe's comment (from TV show Dirty Jobs): "Follow opportunities and bring your passion with you". Indeed, I am doing REALLY good in trade school with math, building, and blueprints.

 

Anyways, thank you for taking the time to read my post.

[glitterfingers]

So, first thing I need to say is that if you're depressed and considering suicide, you need to speak to someone about it. Please. I can imagine it feels a bit self-defeating to seek help (just by the way that you talk about yourself), but you can't be the strong/successful person that you want to be if you're not willing to ask for and accept the help that you need when you need it. You're not meant to be able to cope with everything on your own - nobody is. Ask for help so that you can be the best version of yourself.

 

The danger in being intelligent and capable, as you are, is that you put an excessive amount of undue pressure on yourself. I can relate, as I do too. Since I was a gifted child, I've always had it in my head that I can (and must) do whatever I want to do - so I set the bar very high. Almost like I have a duty and obligation to live to my full potential. There are many things people like and admire about me, and I don't see it the same way. I've never been good enough for my own standards. Does that sound a little bit like you?

 

To me, it does, but you're externalising the issue and blaming other people's social values. I think you'll find that other people's values vary quite significantly. Some women are hypergamous - but I know many would be more than happy with a guy who works in construction, is an attentive husband and father, and handy around the home. So I think you may be projecting a bit there.

 

I have a friend in his mid 30s who's at university and working part-time, tells me he is rejected by women for that. Really? I'm not sure - there are plenty of women in a similar situation for a variety of reasons, and plenty who appreciate someone seeking extra education. I think the issue may be more to do with his mental health and self-perception...just a thought

 

Social status does matter to people, but why? What does it represent to them?

IMO it's about ambition, fortitude, intelligence, resourcefulness, likability, etc. The women you want to date are the ones who can think outside the box and recognise those traits in you

And I think being able to show those traits comes (full circle) back to self-perception. Taking care of your mental health

 

My 2 cents

[abitbroken]

The most successful people I know are in skilled trades. I know electricians and welders with beautiful homes and well taken care of families. I know people who started out as roofers, were in high demand and one day opened their own business - then another. There was a sign wanting a CNC operator for years at one local company - they were willing to train - but people preferred their liberal arts degrees. People need tradespeople. You are right about Mike Rowe. We have enough philosophy majors and not enough people who are out there doing

[abitbroken]

The women you want to date are the ones who can think outside the box and recognise those traits in you

 

To me, dating a tradesperson is not thinking "outside the box" -- my family is full of carpenters, blacksmiths, electricians, etc and my guy is in a trade. Its totally normal.

[WaywardKiwi]

Hey Avro1986,

 

Thanks for your post. I really do understand your comments and observations about social status. You seem to have a good intellectual grasp on the relationship between your own self-image and sense of identity and those social norms and perceptions. I also understand that sense of dissonance where our subconcious and emotional responses don't align with what we know intellectually.

 

You are living proof that the perceived distinction between the trades and those occupations of higher social status are illusory. As you point out, from both an economic perspective and in terms of physical activity, working in a trade makes more sense. You, like everyone else, are more than your job; your intelligence, interests and passion for science is not precluded by your employment. You know that, and you have to trust that other people out there do too. I personally have degrees in Law and Philosophy, and I am teaching English as a second language abroad, because for me it offered me more. I am siginificantly older than most doing this. I still study Law as a hobby, but I doubt I will ever go back to practice because it simply didn't offer me what I wanted from employment. I know that some people don't understand it; they tell me to my face. But many people do understand, relate, and admire me for it. Similarly, I have friends from right across the 'social status' spectrum and I wouldn't even be able to discern my affection or respect for them on the basis of employment. The same is true for you. You shouldn't settle for a woman who is only interested in social status. You want someone who themselves is complex and understands and appreciates your complexity.

 

Finally, I would just add that I disagree that suicide is an honourable way to go. I will defer to your understanding of the physiological reactions of the human body, but to my knowledge most forms of suicide involve a fairly unpleasant and embarrassing end result. That's just the physical side; the emotional harm inflicted on those who love and care about you (and there are always people who do), the first responders, and various other people is unjustified and dishonourable. By posting here, you can now count many of us among that group. You owe it to us to take care of yourself. Your premise "if you're not good enough now for job and love, you'll never be good enough" is also flawed (which I think you identify). Human life is progressive, not static - you are not now what you were, nor will you be what you are now. There is far greater honour in making choices to improve yourself. As I say above, I don't believe that social status is a honourable goal for self improvement. Rather, greater moral and ethical judgement, bettering the lives of those around you and yourself, spreading compassion, even physical improvement are far more honourable goals.

 

My heart goes out to you because I can relate to so much of what you say. I still have darker moments when I wonder if all the status and 'achievement' I gave up was the right decision. But ultimately, I know, those things aren't really what I want out of life and the world. You sound like an incredibly valuable, varied and interesting human being. We are better off with you around, and your existence contributes to the world. Remember that.

 

Good luck,

 

T

[melancholy123]

I have to admit that I feel very insulted that you even entertain the idea that skilled trades are somehow second rate or second class. That is such a phucked up thought. My husband is a mechanic and there is nothing second rate about any mechanic who has gone thru school and apprenticed for 5 years and spent upwards of $100K on tools. We run our own small business, not in a mechanical field, but it is a skill none the less. Your father and grandfather were so right, as is Mike Rowe, a very smart guy. I hope you can find a way to get past your notion of skilled trades being somehow lesser than those with a PhD. My brother had a PhD in psychology and he made a ton of money as you'd expect but he was so out of touch with reality and the common man, it was pathetic.

 

A good definition of success is figuring out what you love to do and then get someone to pay you to do it. I am a musician and I have many musician friends who are successful and getting paid well for what they do. They may not have degrees and letters after their names but they are getting paid to do what they love.

 

End of rant.

[abitbroken]

Finally, I would just add that I disagree that suicide is an honourable way to go. I will defer to your understanding of the physiological reactions of the human body, but to my knowledge most forms of suicide involve a fairly unpleasant and embarrassing end result. That's just the physical side; the emotional harm inflicted on those who love and care about you (and there are always people who do), the first responders, and various other people is unjustified and dishonourable. Y

 

I agree with this. I am a left behind loved one of someone who committed suicide and the pain does not go away. The person who discovered them was irreparably damaged. Its such a deep wound to inflict merely because you lost your standing in a phD program.

[glitterfingers]

The women you want to date are the ones who can think outside the box and recognise those traits in you

 

To me, dating a tradesperson is not thinking "outside the box" -- my family is full of carpenters, blacksmiths, electricians, etc and my guy is in a trade. Its totally normal.

 

Not quite where I was going with that, but I agree with the perspective

 

I mean more that if a date looks at this situation and sees "oh he's an apprentice", discounts him, then she's a pretty narrow-minded individual not worth his time. If she can't at least say "what has he done in the past and where is he hoping to go in the future?" rather than just take him where he is now, at face-value, then she's not what I would call open-minded. Dodging a bullet to be rejected by such people

[Seraphim]

Skilled trades are awesome. My husband is an avionics systems technician. Zero wrong with it.

[abitbroken]

Not quite where I was going with that, but I agree with the perspective

 

I mean more that if a date looks at this situation and sees "oh he's an apprentice", discounts him, then she's a pretty narrow-minded individual not worth his time. If she can't at least say "what has he done in the past and where is he hoping to go in the future?" rather than just take him where he is now, at face-value, then she's not what I would call open-minded. Dodging a bullet to be rejected by such people

 

No one really thinks that. No one looks at a 2nd year medical resident and says "oh. you are just STUDYING to become a doctor. you are beneath me".

[glitterfingers]

No one really thinks that. No one looks at a 2nd year medical resident and says "oh. you are just STUDYING to become a doctor. you are beneath me".

 

Not an adequate comparison. How many doctors do you know who don't have very lucrative careers? Also it takes a lot to be accepted into medical school.

More comparable to someone in their 30s who is a full-time uni student studying towards a profession where most people will never earn 6 figures. People do judge. Maybe you don't, but many do (men and women alike). They don't look at what you could be, they look at what you are

[WaywardKiwi]

They don't look at what you could be, they look at what you are

 

More accurately, they look at what you do. What you are is so much more.

 

That said, I am not saying there is anything wrong with considering whether someone can give you what you want. I think that's as important as loving who they are (all of who they are). But if what they want from me is social status then I don't think our priorities would align...

[glitterfingers]

Perhaps I should have phrased it "They don't look at what you could be, they look at where you are right now"

 

But again, there are a lot of people who look further than that - and that's who you want to pursue

[boltnrun]

Hm, my "requirement" is that a date be gainfully employed in a full-time capacity.

 

I guess that's weird?? But Mom taught me that one should never look down on gainful employment of any kind. And I listened to Mom.

[DancingFool]

...You know....it would be nice if you were simply honest with yourself and the rest of us - it's not that women think this or that, it's what YOU think. It's not that women look down on tradesmen, it's YOU who looks down on them and considers them second class. There, now isn't that refreshing? Now that's cleared up, YOU can adjust your effed up attitude any time you want to.

[Pleasedonot5]

Seek counseling. Now. You should not hurt other people and you should not hurt yourself.

 

The trades are underutilized, respected, and highly paid where I'm from. You're only a second class employee because of the thoughts and insecurities in your own head about it.

 

Re: your example, it is typical for online dating conversations to fizzle out pretty quickly. So if you started with a jobs conversation, it was likely just a boring conversation. Very unlikely was she like "oop, roofing apprentice, deal breaker!" More likely she wasn't that interested to begin with and that's because you started with a jobs conversation.

 

Work on your own insecurities. Not everything is about status. Get out of the field if you aren't happy in it and go get a PhD somewhere else.

[glitterfingers]

go get a PhD somewhere else.

 

Maybe not. PhD candidature is notorious for bringing about mental health crises (significant pressure) and even harder to get a job afterwards. Particularly in the US where they have an issue with underemployed academics. Would not be ideal to spend 5-7 yrs in education just for the 'status' only to suffer worse mental health and employment issues during and afterwards

 

Trades are a good way to go. You could also do a short course in business if you want to become self-employed or move into management some day

[Pleasedonot5]

Glitterfingers, I'm just saying: OP should either do it or don't. The "I'm not in control of my own life" mentality is mostly false. Go for what you want and stop feeling sorry for yourself.

[ApocalypseDreams]

Some women will not date tradesmen. I know women who are college educated and will not date a man who is not similarly educated. That's a deal breaker for them.

 

There are plenty of women who are willing to date men who work in the trades. Most of my friends who work in the trades are doing pretty well in life - including dating.

 

I think the best thing you can do is accept that SOME women will not date you because of this and not get hung up about it to the point where it stops you finding the women who are open to dating you.

[dias]

Some women will not date tradesmen. I know women who are college educated and will not date a man who is not similarly educated. That's a deal breaker for them.

 

There are plenty of women who are willing to date men who work in the trades. Most of my friends who work in the trades are doing pretty well in life - including dating.

 

I think the best thing you can do is accept that SOME women will not date you because of this and not get hung up about it to the point where it stops you finding the women who are open to dating you.

Exactly this!

[melancholy123]

...You know....it would be nice if you were simply honest with yourself and the rest of us - it's not that women think this or that, it's what YOU think. It's not that women look down on tradesmen, it's YOU who looks down on them and considers them second class. There, now isn't that refreshing? Now that's cleared up, YOU can adjust your effed up attitude any time you want to.

 

Thank you dancing fool! Exactly what I think.

[Avro1986]

...You know....it would be nice if you were simply honest with yourself and the rest of us - it's not that women think this or that, it's what YOU think. It's not that women look down on tradesmen, it's YOU who looks down on them and considers them second class. There, now isn't that refreshing? Now that's cleared up, YOU can adjust your effed up attitude any time you want to.

 

Hi! Thank you for taking time to answer my post. I understand how infuriating my statement can be, but I won't apologize. I made my position 100% clear, so there is no need to pretend otherwise. I stand correct, you are wrong. Women DO tend to marry on the same socio-economic or greater status. Are you telling me that a surgeon/U.S. President has the same status as a mechanic? I don't feel ashamed for stating the obvious. Guess what: I spent 10 fu***** years studying, working part-time, and sacrificing my personal life/mental health. None of my parents had a high school degree when I was born, and my mother left because she "didn't like the mother thing". When I got kicked out just before Christmas (because they were such kind human beings), my girlfriend at the time, dumped me three days later after she had said: "I love you, I promise I'll be there for you." She was a lawyer with an MBA, who apparently "was attracted to my ambition".

 

What I do feel ashamed is: 1) Having so much f****** emphasis on social status to determine your worth as a human being. because guess what? I have felt like a second-class human being since I was a kid, and I was bullied a lot. I also wanted to prove to every fu**** in my family that I was better than them. At the end, my PhD, girlfriend, and hopes vanished within 3 weeks. I still f****** feel like a second-class human being. Now, I am just projecting onto the skilled trades, which is incorrect. 2) I probably made people feel like how I felt, preventing me from building genuine relationships with them. The more I think about it, I am pissed that I can't use the skilled that I have developed for a decade. You go from genetically modifying mice and sequencing DNA for cancer research to picking up garbage/carrying insulation. I don't think you can understand how depressing this is. Why did I bother spending 10 years to work in a field completely different? I feel like I waisted my time in school, which is why I am so depressed.

 

I want to be happy, so I need to make adjustments, but trivializing the worth of a medical PhD, or my entire life with "don't have a victim mentality" or "you're **" is completely inaccurate. As if being furious at me makes you right by de facto.

[abitbroken]

Hi! Thank you for taking time to answer my post. I understand how infuriating my statement can be, but I won't apologize. I made my position 100% clear, so there is no need to pretend otherwise. I stand correct, you are wrong. Women DO tend to marry on the same socio-economic or greater status. Are you telling me that a surgeon/U.S. President has the same status as a mechanic?

 

There are more female nurses, police officers, welders, lab techs, office managers, movie camera operators, marketing department analysts, dance instructors, kindergarten teachers, personal trainers, graphic designers and horse trainers etc, in the world that are on the same socio-economic level as someone who is in skilled trades. If you are making $50-100K in skilled trades - the field of women that are at or just below your level is very, very vast. If you were the dishwasher at a restaurant and doing it as a career and not as a sideline while you moonlight at your dream career. So saying that "if a woman was the head of NASA, she wouldn't date you" is just not a relavant argument.

[glitterfingers]

Some women will not date tradesmen. I know women who are college educated and will not date a man who is not similarly educated. That's a deal breaker for them.

 

I think this is probably the key. College-educated women don't avoid certain job titles - they seek out people with a similar level of education. OP is educated. Job title shouldn't even be a factor here.

[glitterfingers]

What I do feel ashamed is: 1) Having so much f****** emphasis on social status to determine your worth as a human being. because guess what? I have felt like a second-class human being since I was a kid, and I was bullied a lot. I also wanted to prove to every fu**** in my family that I was better than them. At the end, my PhD, girlfriend, and hopes vanished within 3 weeks. I still f****** feel like a second-class human being. Now, I am just projecting onto the skilled trades, which is incorrect. 2) I probably made people feel like how I felt, preventing me from building genuine relationships with them. The more I think about it, I am pissed that I can't use the skilled that I have developed for a decade. You go from genetically modifying mice and sequencing DNA for cancer research to picking up garbage/carrying insulation. I don't think you can understand how depressing this is. Why did I bother spending 10 years to work in a field completely different? I feel like I waisted my time in school, which is why I am so depressed.

 

I probably wouldn't date someone with this attitude because I'd never feel good enough either. When someone places this much emphasis on where they stand in the social hierarchy (obviously you think it matters a lot more than most people responding here do), I'd find it a bit egotistical and narcissistic. And I have definitely dated a guy like this before - it was a horrible relationship to be in, he was so insecure that everything he did was about making himself look better and gearing himself to have more money/assets.

 

That stuff really shows itself after a while - he'd puff his chest out and always walk a metre ahead of me in public (like I was a dog following him), he was obsessed with earning more money to the point that he looked down on other people, neglected our relationship and wouldn't let me tag him in things on social media because he was so concerned about how others saw him. It was exhausting, shallow, frustrating. What kind of horrible, self-confined prison that would be to live in... He wasn't a happy person either. Because you spend your life trying to climb this self-imposed ladder rather than enjoying the things that actually give you meaning - friends, family, hobbies etc

 

Taught me a lot though. Like never to date someone who looks at life that way, because they will NEVER be happy with me or themselves or their circumstances. It will never be enough because they view life through this lens of always needing to be better than the next person to assert their worth

(Also, for the record, by the time I actually decided to leave, he was begging me not to go because he didn't feel he could do better - just shows you how twisted his mentality was, that he treated me as worthless when I was one of the best things in his life)

 

If you can't be happy with what you have now, what makes you think you'll be happier when you have more?

I know this all too well, as I grew up in a wealthy but broken family. Maybe you can use your current circumstances as a lesson, learn to love what you have and learn to be happy with less than what you think you need. If you can do that (it will not be easy for you), you'll have figured out the key to solving a lot of your problems both now and in the future

 

I would focus on that, if I were you. And if you have any intellectual heroes that you read about or listen to advice from, I think you'll find that most of them had to develop that skill before they got what they wanted out of life

Also: Think And Grow Rich - Napoleon Hill