The Great Pretenders (In Our Relationships) -- LONG

[Hermes]

Yes, Reinvent.

 

"Best investment - get down and dirty and really real with your therapist. Anything else is a waste of time and money.

[zeino]

The concept of distance is an essential part of human relationships as we are inevitably separate beings and therefore inevitably distant from each other in differing degrees. More loving relationships means closing this distance with certain people, coming closer. One tool we have for this is disclosure. We tell to the other person about ourselves vocally or maybe silently. But being genuine or real does not mean being 100% transparent at all times. Indeed, that would be crazy. With some people, social codes easily tell us how much we can disclose or not, so we don't have to think about this much. We do this automatically. In private relationships, there is always a process. The safer we feel emotionally, the more we can comfortably disclose. Does this mean we are pretenders or faking it? I don't think so. We all have a social self that we put up and a more private self with more vulnerabilities. Some people think of the former one as a mask. I think the degree and certain qualities of this mask matters a lot. In Cluster B disorders for instance - psychopathic personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, the mask may really be like a collage and the real sense of self behind the mask may be lost. Some people are just the mask. In some others, say codependents, the mask may be very strong but there is a sense of self behind. When people don't need this mask as a defense, more authenticity may be achieved - for my lack of a better word.

 

For instance, if I sit down at a cafe with my date on my first date and if he is talking about his travel experiences, it would be very unwise of me to say "You know what, I'm an emotional abuse survivor and let me tell you what went on during the first 18 years of my life because I think this is one of the most important things that shaped my personality." Plus it would be unhealthy - why am I trying to close so much distance with a near stranger on the first date? Some emotional predators do this a lot by the way, it is a manipulation technique. Anyway, if my date is a relatively emotionally healthy person, his gut will warn him against me. "Who is this person overcoming all social conventions and closing so much distance so quickly?" So no, I'm not 100% transparent on a first date but neither am I making up anything about this stuff. And neither am I dying to tell this story. There are so many other things that make me me. But people close to me at one point learn about the stuff that hurt me as a kid because I'm more comfortable when they preserve a distance with her. I think these things are just too complex to be evaluated only on the axis of "pretension." The notion authenticity helps me more.

 

If I'm putting on a mask not to lose people, it means I feel pretty unlovable as my authentic self. Then yeah, who would like to reveal their "unlovable" self to the real world? We think we will not be loved - as, obviously, we don't love our own self. But the mask doesn't bring much happiness either as the real self underneath is speaking. It has emotional needs, wants, desires etc. Plus, one feels phony. (More reason to hide the self!) There is a myriad of reasons why people do this and if it's getting painful, the solution is to better one's relation with themselves. Therapy helps a lot. Actually, experiencing that pain is not a bad thing because it is maybe the real self feeling strong enough to speak and ask for what it wants. Maybe this is the first step towards healing and authenticity. Some people never come to this stage of wanting or thinking about authenticity. They have lost the distinction between the self and the mask - narcissists for instance. Others feel fake all the time (and they are) but they don't know what is real, either. They need to cultivate the real self. So yes, this can happen at unhealthy degrees.

 

And yes, some people play games because they think the society or nature want it to be played that way - warnings to women to not chase for instance.

 

And yes, in some people these things are unconscious while in some conscious. In some anxiety disorders like OCD, people may get a feeling like they are liars, fake, dishonest etc etc whilst they are perfectly honest, genuine people.

 

And then there are others whose mask do not negate their reality. It is more coherent with the real self but it allows for gradual, healthy disclosure. These people feel more content in their relationships and do not feel that they are pretending in the negative sense of the word.

 

The concept "ego" means people will not be 100% open to other people, paradoxically, especially in love relationships. Obviously people do talk about their problems, they do share problems but there is a balance between this and not managing to appear like the complete weak failure we may feel we are sometimes. Depending on gender codes, different genders may be more scared of full emotional disclosure - I would say, in my experience and culture, men are less inclined to admit emotional weaknesses to their female partners because my society teaches men to be "strong" and boys are not supposed to cry that often. Hear these men in a therapy environment, you would get a different image because they don't need that ego with the therapist as there is no attraction. That's why, we say love cannot heal everything sometimes we "pretend" less when there is no love, actually.

 

Also, there are degrees of importance in things. Imagine yourself having a heart to heart with your partner. You are crying and telling something and you feel very heard at that moment. And there is a little piece of snot in your nose. Your partner notices it, registers it and it is formed in his brain as a sentences "My girlfriend has a little snot in her nose." If the first sentence he says when you finish your very emotional sentence/disclosure is "you have snot in your nose", that is an (in my book) an umepathetic partner at that moment. So he responds to your disclosure and not what is in your nose. He pretends not to see it, maybe in a minute he will bring you a napkin but altogether, he responds empathetically by pretending not to see it or say it then.

 

So I think, ultimately, what you feel inside about authenticity or being phony etc is more important than what exactly happens with people. (Nobody fully knows that If you are in pain because you feel you are not your real self in relationships to a degree that makes you uncomfortable, I say this is a good opportunity to start working on healing.

[Hermes]

Good stuff Zeino.

[katrina1980]

Uncertainty is not the same as insecurity K.

You know that. Let's not mix up the terms.

 

 

Hermes, I just saw this^^.

 

No I do realize uncertainty and insecurity are two different things.

 

What I said was:

 

[/i][/b]

 

I dunno, my experience is that there is always at least some level of uncertainty at least sometimes,

 

that will cause someone (assuming he/she has attraction/feelings for the other) to become insecure.

 

 

Hope that clarifies.

 

That said though, perhaps for some, feeling uncertain about your partner does NOT cause insecurity.

 

I need to become that person!!

[Hermes]

Ultimately, Katrina, the last line of Zein's great post above

 

"I say this is a good opportunity to start working on healing."

 

Get to the root of the insecurities and then root them out....

[DancingFool]

This "cool chic" that you've created in your mind and that you are pretending to be is not universally desirable. She is only desirable to certain types of men, aka very independent, lost of personal space, guys who don't need to talk to but once a week, commitment phobes, etc. So that is your dating experience and if you are honest with yourself, it hasn't made you feel happy or fulfilled in your relationships, but quite the opposite - angry, hurt, sad, scared.

 

If what you want is a guy who is kind, attentive, wants to touch base with you every day, sappy romantic, wants to be with you every day - you need to be that girl too and show it. Not in words or demands (because that's just needy and demanding) but in actions. Be warm, caring, affectionate, sending him cute notes or pics about a joke you've shared. Be the person you actually want to date. That's how you attract the right persona and find a relationship that will make you happy.

 

Keep in mind also, that opposites initially attract, but then they fight. To find a relationship for keeps, you need to set aside the excitement that your opposite might bring initially and seek out someone similar where the bond is more genuine than brief initial excitement. Only way you are finding someone similar to yourself, your needs and your values is by being genuine about who you are.

[reinventmyself]

I realize this now. Problem is, these are exactly the types of guys I become attracted to!

 

This is what I need to change.

 

Yes I will need to start being more honest and real with my therapist, that is a good start.

 

Again thank you!

 

To everyone who responded actually. You guys are awesome.

 

With all my smart ass wisdom. .I am still attracted to wrong ones. My work is never done. But I am a lot better then I used to be

[katrina1980]

So I think, ultimately, what you feel inside about authenticity or being phony etc is more important than what exactly happens with people. (Nobody fully knows that If you are in pain because you feel you are not your real self in relationships to a degree that makes you uncomfortable, I say this is a good opportunity to start working on healing.

 

Thank you... this is precisely what I plan on doing.

 

Determining why I become attracted to certain men who, for the most part, are not the best men for me.

 

Without going too deeply into my background, my mom was a cold, emotionally abusive narcissist, unable to love/unable to show love, even to my dad.

 

My dad, on the other hand, was caring, NURTURING, and extremely attentive. Doting even. Always there for us, in every way, shape or form. Till the day he died!

 

He cheated on my mom throughout their marriage (probably in an attempt to get the love he never got from my mom).

 

I witnessed this and even remember saying (to someone) at a very young age, I never want to get married.

 

That the "mistress" always gets treated nicer than the "wife."

 

I must have been around 14-15 when I said this. I will never forget it.

 

Nuff on that though, best to discuss all this with therapist.

[zeino]

Thank you Hermes.

[katrina1980]

If what you want is a guy who is kind, attentive, wants to touch base with you every day, sappy romantic, wants to be with you every day -

 

Well I don't need to be with him "every day" (at least at first)... but yes I get your point and agree.

 

My first step though is learning how to become attracted to such men.

 

The dichotomy is.... the type of man I want and need in my life, are usually not the men I become attracted to!

 

Big problem!

[Hermes]

Not a bad article, this. Dare to be Yourself.

 

about authenticity and the core self.

 

"It's also a cornerstone of mental health. Authenticity is correlated with many aspects of psychological well-being, including vitality, self-esteem, and coping skills. Acting in accordance with one's core self—a trait called self-determination—is ranked by some experts as one of three basic psychological needs, along with competence and a sense of relatedness."

 

"Yet, increasingly, contemporary culture seems to mock the very idea that there is anything solid and true about the self.

 

"Fabricated memoirs become best-sellers. Speed-dating discounts sincerity. Amid a clutter of counterfeits, the core self is struggling to assert itself.

 

"It's some kind of epidemic right now," says Stephen Cope, author of Yoga and the Quest for the True Self. "People feel profoundly like they're not living from who they really are, their authentic self, their deepest possibility in the world. The result is a sense of near-desperation.""

 

 

 

 

aaah K.

therein lies the dilemma:

 

"the type of man I want and need in my life, are usually not the men I become attracted to!

"

[reinventmyself]

The dichotomy is.... the type of man I want and need in my life, are usually not the men I become attracted to!

 

When you figure it out, let me know

 

In all honestly, it could suggest some unavailability or ambivalence in yourself.

[ThatwasThen]

Can you expound on this?

 

What do some men want and what's the alternative? Me to show display my insecurities, and needs?

 

That I actually want him to contact me every day, don't wait a week to ask me out again, and other such demands?.

 

Just in reading these forums (not just this one) any of that in the early stages is gonna result in most (if not all) guys to become turned off and take off.

 

Even right now there is a thread created by a woman who believes she scared her guy off because she was too clingy.

 

Most if not everyone on THIS forum told her YES you came off too clingy!

 

When the reality is, the way SHE felt is probably how most women (and some men) feel in these precarious early stages.

 

But god forbid we act on that like this poster did!

 

The guy takes off and then she receives advice to do the exact thing I am discussing in this thread - PRETENDING she is cool with everything.

 

When she's not -- that is NOT how she really feels.

No need to "pretend." Just don't put any expectations on anyone until they actually show you value. Give as good as you get and get rid of anyone quickly who is not showing you that they are willing to show you that they value you, want to get to know you and are consistant at it.

 

If you have to pretend that you're a cool chick to someone who is neglecting you, mistreating you, not showing you value then you're short changing yourself.

 

I think that expectations should only come into play when you've decided to be in a relationship with someone. Then you can expect to be shown and you can easily communicate needs that are not being met. In the beginning the only thing I think we can expect to receive is consistency, respect, manners and mutual interest.

 

I learned a long while ago (the hard way) that if a guy is making me feel needy, if he brings out the "clingy" in me or if he makes me feel insecure then he's not the man for me. No pretending just a polite "see ya, and bubbye"

 

I truly believe that more women need to consider themselves "the prize" that any man would do well to be with. If he's not acknowledging that fact in actions, then he's not worth your time. (same goes for men with women).

[katrina1980]

The dichotomy is.... the type of man I want and need in my life, are usually not the men I become attracted to!

 

When you figure it out, let me know

 

In all honestly, it could suggest some unavailability or ambivalence in yourself.

 

Probably because deep down, I KNOW I am with the wrong man.

 

But because I like/love him, I adapt, adjust... to his style.

 

Too much so apparently... because what happens is, I end up "flipping the script" and they become off balance and insecure.

 

I don't believe I do this intentionally (or consciously), but maybe I do!!

[ThatwasThen]

Probably because deep down, I KNOW I am with the wrong man.

 

But because I like/love him, I adapt, adjust. to his style.

 

Too much so apparently... because what happens is, I end up "flipping the script" and they become off balance and insecure.

 

I don't believe I do this intentionally (or consciously), but maybe I do!!

Further to my post above this one. You are losing yourself in others and that's one of the many symptoms of codependency.

[Hermes]

So, Katrina, moving along.

 

What, for you, is the "right man".

 

Perhaps you are not drawn to well-adjusted, stable, sincere, kindly types. Maybe you think of this type as boring? Unexciting?

[katrina1980]

No need to "pretend." Just don't put any expectations on anyone until they actually show you value. Give as good as you get and get rid of anyone quickly who is not showing you that they are willing to show you that they value you, want to get to know you and are consistant at it.

 

If you have to pretend that you're a cool chick to someone who is neglecting you, mistreating you, not showing you value then you're short changing yourself.

 

I think that expectations should only come into play when you've decided to be in a relationship with someone. Then you can expect to be shown and you can easily communicate needs that are not being met. In the beginning the only thing I think we can expect to receive is consistency, respect, manners and mutual interest.

 

I learned a long while ago (the hard way) that if a guy is making me feel needy, if he brings out the "clingy" in me or if he makes me feel insecure then he's not the man for me. No pretending just a polite "see ya, and bubbye"

 

I truly believe that more women need to consider themselves "the prize" that any man would do well to be with. If he's not acknowledging that fact in actions, then he's not worth your time. (same goes for men with women).

 

Oh it's not that they are mistreating me or not "good" to me.... not at all. I would NEVER tolerate that!

 

If/when that happens, it's NEXT.

 

This I am certain about, no if's, and's or but's about it.

 

It's the good men who are just extremely independent (emotionally and otherwise) who needs loads of "space." Who don't need as much togetherness as I do.

 

This isn't mistreatment, it's just who they are. Men like j.man (admittedly) who is a very nice man.

 

He just needs lots of space and prefers women who are emotionally independent as well.

 

For the longest time, I thought I was that women. Who needs tons of space, who is emotionally independent, etc. I have even posted about it on this board! And others.

 

It's just NOW I am realizing I was pretending.

 

I don't need or even want tons of space. From time to time sure, but not days/weeks.

 

I am more emotionally dependent than I even wanted to admit to myself.

 

NOT to the point of suffocating him with my needs and insecurities, I am intelligent enough to know not to do that. I talk about that with my therapist.

 

But I like spending time together (lots), sharing thoughts and feelings, touching base every day.

 

More togetherness, less independence.... as opposed to separateness, more emotionally independent.

 

I REALLY want to meet a man I can lean on a bit, who I can COUNT on to be there for me.

 

I suppose I need to change who I am too (or stop pretending) in order for me to meet such man!

[zeino]

My favourite thing ever, a Craigslist ad from 2010. This could be me in my twenties

 

Enjoy

 

Emotionally unavailable woman seeking emotionally unavailable man

You:

 

-Must have a busy schedule. This must be legit. Holding down a 3.8 in the College of Engineering while working two jobs, running a business, publishing original research=busy. Sleeping in until 2 in the afternoon, smoking with your friends, watching re-runs of �It�s Always Sunny in Philadelphia�=not busy.

 

That way, we can always blame everything on �timing.� (It�s not you or me)

 

-Must play control games with me. I will push and shove, and it is your job to nonverbally put me in my place by constantly �taking control of the situation.� This is how you will establish your �dominance.� This will not be easy (but that�s what makes it fun).

 

Other ways to �stay in control 65533; ask all the questions, do all of the interrogation. If I ever become upset, accuse me of being �emotional� or �unreasonable.� It's always "inside my head." Also, see me when it is convenient for you. Don't always answer my calls. Remain somewhat aloof. You don�t want to let me have the upper hand.

 

-Must be willing to banter back and forth with me. I will get bored and lose interest otherwise.

 

-Must be into exciting and potentially dangerous activities, like stealing road signs, driving like a maniac, and getting arrested by the police.

 

Actually, scratch that last one. There is a difference between risky and reckless. Then there is �retarded.� (I�m still undecided on where to place �posting personal ads on Craigslist.�

 

In turn, will never call you too much (although I won�t hesitate to call you out) nor will I make you feel guilty about not �spending enough time with me.� I won�t nag you about commitment (or �where this relationship is going� because it will never be �that� serious. We won�t talk about feelings because�well, I�d rather not.

 

Only short-listed applicants will be contacted (no phone calls or multiple e-mails, please).

 

it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests

 

For reference:

 

[reinventmyself]

More togetherness, less independence.... as opposed to separateness, emotionally independent.

 

I think a good start is the way you choose to look it dependence. I think up until now you viewed it as a bad thing.

Maybe if you reframe it as a healthy attachment it could start to shift the way you go about it. It's as if you hide it out of shame.

(there is unhealthy dependence as well but you seem objective enough to know the difference)

It's natural to desire a connection or attachment to someone.

[katrina1980]

My favourite thing ever, a Craigslist ad from 2010. This could be me in my twenties

 

Enjoy

 

Emotionally unavailable woman seeking emotionally unavailable man

You:

 

-Must have a busy schedule. This must be legit. Holding down a 3.8 in the College of Engineering while working two jobs, running a business, publishing original research=busy. Sleeping in until 2 in the afternoon, smoking with your friends, watching re-runs of �It�s Always Sunny in Philadelphia�=not busy.

 

That way, we can always blame everything on �timing.� (It�s not you or me)

 

-Must play control games with me. I will push and shove, and it is your job to nonverbally put me in my place by constantly �taking control of the situation.� This is how you will establish your �dominance.� This will not be easy (but that�s what makes it fun).

 

Other ways to �stay in control 65533; ask all the questions, do all of the interrogation. If I ever become upset, accuse me of being �emotional� or �unreasonable.� It's always "inside my head." Also, see me when it is convenient for you. Don't always answer my calls. Remain somewhat aloof. You don�t want to let me have the upper hand.

 

-Must be willing to banter back and forth with me. I will get bored and lose interest otherwise.

 

-Must be into exciting and potentially dangerous activities, like stealing road signs, driving like a maniac, and getting arrested by the police.

 

Actually, scratch that last one. There is a difference between risky and reckless. Then there is �retarded.� (I�m still undecided on where to place �posting personal ads on Craigslist.�

 

In turn, will never call you too much (although I won�t hesitate to call you out) nor will I make you feel guilty about not �spending enough time with me.� I won�t nag you about commitment (or �where this relationship is going� because it will never be �that� serious. We won�t talk about feelings because�well, I�d rather not.

 

Only short-listed applicants will be contacted (no phone calls or multiple e-mails, please).

 

it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests

 

For reference:

]

 

LOL that is priceless!

[Hermes]

You got it, Katrina!

 

"It's the good men who are just extremely independent (emotionally and otherwise) who needs loads of "space." Who don't need as much togetherness as I do."

 

That is the type of person I also like.

The person of independent mind is not necessarily "absent", as in not there to be counted. Quite the contrary. The psychologically healthy man WILL be together with you, share with you.

 

The "flakes" are the types who ARE emotionally absent, even absent from themselves, and with an ingrained inability to love.

[reinventmyself]

You got it, Katrina!

 

"It's the good men who are just extremely independent (emotionally and otherwise) who needs loads of "space." Who don't need as much togetherness as I do."

 

That is the type of person I also like.

The person of independent mind is not necessarily "absent", as in not there to be counted. Quite the contrary. The psychologically healthy man WILL be together with you, share with you.

 

The "flakes" are the types who ARE emotionally absent, even absent from themselves, and with an ingrained inability to love.

 

Seek a balance of independence and interdependence that's fluid and compromising.

[katrina1980]

You got it, Katrina!

 

"It's the good men who are just extremely independent (emotionally and otherwise) who needs loads of "space." Who don't need as much togetherness as I do."

 

That is the type of person I also like.

The person of independent mind is not necessarily "absent", as in not there to be counted. Quite the contrary. The psychologically healthy man WILL be together with you, share with you.

 

The "flakes" are the types who ARE emotionally absent, even absent from themselves, and with an ingrained inability to love.

 

Wow excellent point.

 

My ex was more this way (bolded)... but he needed LOADS of space, more along the lines of how j.man is (days/weeks, up to a month away sometimes).

 

Which I graciously gave him. It's what caused him to fall in love with me (one of the things). Believing we were 100% compatible in this regard.

 

For me, I was again, adapting, adjusting.... pretending.

[zeino]

I think a good start is the way you choose to look it dependence. I think up until now you viewed it as a bad thing.

Maybe if you reframe it as a healthy attachment it could start to shift the way you go about it. It's as if you hide it out of shame.

(there is unhealthy dependence as well but you seem objective enough to know the difference)

It's natural to desire a connection or attachment to someone.

 

Katrina, the term "interdependence" may help you here when you are forming an idea of healthy attachment as reinventmyself suggests. This means maintaining your individuality, your values, your independence but at the same time managing to be involved with a partner at a satisfactory level and getting the same satisfactory degree of support from them. This interdependence does not make you dependent, neither does it hinder your independence as an individual. Another positive way to look at things is to think about "compromise" instead of losing independence or becoming dependent. The following article talks about interdependence and compromise

 

 

[Hermes]

So, K, instead of pretending work towards the acceptance that "space" and "interdependence" . We are not even talking about physical distance (although that is fine too as and when required), but not "living in each other's pockets" on a day-to-day ordinary basis.