Unsure of next move with older man

[emrhi]

One month ago I connected with someone online who I felt incredibly drawn to because of his educational credentials and maturity and who is twice my age. As a 20 year old young woman who is very introverted and depressed, meeting guys my age, let alone feeling attracted to them and them to me has been virtually impossible. I have always fantasized about being involved with a much older man because of unresolved issues with my father who was / is an emotionally abusive, uncaring alcoholic. This man fascinated me, and it was actually me who contacted him first. He is an academic with three master's degrees and a PhD in a field I am studying currently at university. Not only that, but he is highly knowledgeable about the arts and even corresponded with a famous writer when he was around my age. Even better, we met up and had a picnic that lasted almost an entire day, just conversing about books, art, and our inner struggles (both with depression).

 

However, despite the level we connect on, and the constant communication we developed, there were still some things that I felt ambivalent about. Firstly, his rigorous education has not enabled him to land any kind of secure job. He was a lifelong student and only finished his dissertation at age 38, after being in school since before I was born. That doesn't detract from his brilliance to me, but I worry about what kind of future I could have with someone older who isn't even employed (he is looking for work-- he has taught some university classes but not been able to cobble together a living, as they only pay a few thousand each. He applies for tenured positions when he sees them). So for the time being he is living with his mom and (he had moved to Europe for 8 years and came back for his PhD). In many ways, he is sort of emotionally stunted, and his longest relationship has only been 1.5 years, although he has had many casual relationships.

 

After talking for weeks and sharing certain suggestive pics and texts, I met him for the second time yesterday. And we agreed to have no expectation going into our meeting, yet I knew that he anticipated something sexual. The truth is that I am technically a virgin with limited experience kissing let alone anything else, but I managed to fake my knowledge of certain things. I told him the truth about my inexperience and he didn't seem to mind. We actually both share a desire to be in age differential relationships like ours, and he has dated women much younger who have looked up to him as a father figure. Essentially, we just watched movies and TV and talked, fooled around, etc. I had to stay overnight because I couldn't easily leave his bedroom (the basement) without his family seeing a young-looking twenty year old girl coming upstairs. He saw me off early in the morning when they were asleep.

 

I feel many conflicting, turbulent emotions and I don't know how to proceed from here. I want to lose my virginity to him and it almost happened except for the fact that I was due to start that time of month. However, I also know that I might feel a sense of shame or grossness if I did, not because I view sexuality that way, but perhaps because I have started looking at him as a replacement 'daddy' and he wants to be that role for me. And there might also be shame in having one's first time with a man twice one's age, from society's perspective. And we have both discussed the possibility of this becoming a relationship, which I'll admit would provide me with a sense of comfort and inner peace I have always longed for. Of course, the drawback would be that I'd never tell anyone, aside perhaps from a handful of close friends, but certainly none of my family. Also, his lack of employment prospects and inability to support himself financially at his age are a little off-putting. He also seems a bit too into the daddy thing at times, perhaps because his own father was a failure.

 

I guess I just want some input on my situation, and what to do to fulfill my needs while respecting myself, and without getting hurt.

 

Thanks.

[Wiseman2]

Where do you see this going, say a year from now?

he is living with his mom. his longest relationship has only been 1.5 years, although he has had many casual relationships. I have started looking at him as a replacement 'daddy' He also seems a bit too into the daddy thing at times.

[emrhi]

Well, I don't exactly agree with how you chose to quote from those particular parts of my paragraphs in order to make it sound like this is a doomed trainwreck.

 

I would like to see this heading in the direction of a committed relationship. I know that there are individuals in committed relationships with age differences such as ours and they are not the norm, that is true, but neither is it purely acting out some fantasy. He is completing a certificate to teach ESL, so that could be a fallback if he never gets a tenured position. I would like to just feel protected and cared for by someone who is a lover / father figure in one person. And I don't care if it's sick to some people, because they've never gone through the pain that I have. We both come from families led by abusive fathers.

[Cope]

Hi!

 

I have to be honest here, i've been in a relationship with this kind of age gap at your age. My dad was absent during my teens, not a bad father though. You called him mature....No. Simply being 20 years older does not make you mature. You know when i realized how immature that guy really was? How stupid and full of insecurities he was? When i hit 30 and had a 20 year old hit on me. He was hanging of every word i said. If i told him to jump off a cliff , he probably would. If i needed an ego stroke, if i was SO insecure or such a bad person that i fancied casual hookups with recently legal people, i would probably had gone for it. But i was and am not. Like my ex, your guy makes a habit out of dating younger girls. This is a HUGE red flag. You probably will not understand this, although i do hope you're smarter than me and do.

 

 

Besides the age gap, what bothered me was what Wiseman2 pointed out. This guy does not seem like a guy you would want to get into a relationship with, i don't care if he's in line for a Nobel or anything. Knowledge is always a turn on, but it doesn't make you a good person.

 

What are your needs?

[Wiseman2]

From your writing those things in your original post is that what you fear could happen? It's only been a couple of dates, so you may need to get to know each other better overtime.

sound like this is a doomed trainwreck.

[emrhi]

Okay, I didn't mean to imply that age = maturity. I agree that there are aspects of his personality that indicate immaturity or being emotionally stunted. He has few friends, seldom leaves his home except for his courses, and is very socially withdrawn, which is related to his depression. I am the same way. He claims that he learned to be more extroverted by teaching, but has always been unable to make the right "contacts" to land him a full-time position. In some of our conversations, we both sort of regress to a silly, childish place, which I think is common for people who underwent childhood traumas. He has said also that he enjoys being the dominant one, especially in bed, because he feels its an outlet for the evil part of himself, which he tries to repress. I guess that part of his personality that reminds him of his father. He is soft-spoken and gentle in the times when we are just talking or cuddling. It is only in some of the things I did last night that this sort of dominant, sadistic part came out. But, this is my fantasy. after all, and so in a way he is safely allowing me to explore it.

 

He does have a pattern of this behavior, and had a relationship with a student when he was a teaching assistant that he described as being similar to our dynamic. She is now pursuing her PhD and they exchange emails every so often. I think he would like to guide me so that I can be on a similar path, and he has told me that the main thing he wants is just to make me feel good (in more than one sense, of course).

 

 

So, my needs are finding solace in an older male who basically reassures me that I have the potential to live a good life, with whom I can have conversations about my writing and passions, and who can help me to explore my sexuality.

[Cope]

So, my needs are finding solace in an older male who basically reassures me that I have the potential to live a good life, with whom I can have conversations about my writing and passions, and who cab help me to explore my sexuality.

 

 

Ok so let's chose to ignore his immaturity and most of the red flags. I am not saying don't do it. I haven't regretted being in that relationship, nor did it end badly, but i do consider myself lucky. BUT, because i was looking up to him, because i too probably saw him like the father i never had close to me as much as i wanted too, i took his advise like it was the universal truth.

 

The thing is, he was not my Father.

He is not your Father.

He can provide you with a father-figure, he can tell you smart quotes and lessons of life (note: Imagine you talking about life to a 10 year old.... Always keep in mind that his "lessons of life" maybe just textbook material and not some grand Knowledge he obtained)

He can probably offer you nice sex too, probably with more respect than a boy your age, not because he is more respectful (tricky part) but because by that age, he knows how to treat women by his failures. Note again: Always keep in mind that he probably is dating younger women because they usually do not have many expectations or demands, that makes them "low maintenance".

He can do all that.

What he can't do, is love you like a father.

I have read up on that and they say that a Father's love is irreplaceable. Nothing and noone can cover a Father's absence. If you didn't have it as a child, you should just grieve about it and move on. Noone can fill that void.

 

My example. My ex was also a musician. He thought he knew it all. He told me i will probably never be a good musician and i need to study A LOT to be at least mediocre. Who says that to a 20 year old? I can not describe how much that affected me and my dreams while growing up. Recently he attended to a concert of mine. I did not know how much i wanted him to tell me "girl, you rock" until he did. That young little me felt a whole lot better in that moment. Anyways.

 

You say he wants to help you etc. He may not do what my ex did, but still, you will be hanging off his every word and because he is not your Father and will never love you like a Father should have (always putting your well being first), you have to be EXTREMELY careful on what he feeds you. This will be hard.

 

 

I could go on and on, still ignoring the red flags of his character.

 

Do what you want, just try not to get emotionally involved.

[Cope]

I just saw this edit:

 

has always been unable to make the right "contacts" to land him a full-time position.

He does have a pattern of this behavior, and had a relationship with a student when he was a teaching assistant

 

Have you ever thought these two are linked?

 

edit to add:

 

I have always fantasized about being involved with a much older man because of unresolved issues with my father who was / is an emotionally abusive, uncaring alcoholic.

 

 

Subconsciously we do pick older men because we miss our Father, subconsciously we also pick men similar to our Father. Be very careful of him being emotionally abusive etc.

[Zaphod]

I don't see any evidence of immaturity here. Just a man slightly down on his luck.

 

Jobs and social life are no evidence of maturity. This is an archaic urban myth which is well past its sell-by date.

 

If he's socially awkward or shy, a relationship with him might be slow-going, but surely as a twenty year old virgin, that would suit you?

 

Give it a chance, I say. There's no commitment required. Go out for a coffee or whatever, chat a bit, get to know him past his apparent difficulties and see who he really is, see how it goes.

 

If anything, it sounds like you're the one with the issues - father figure issues. Try and play that down a bit and just remember you're a human being, he's a human being, no one can tell you what to do or what choices to make. Just because he's older doesn't mean he has to be a father figure.

[HeartGoesOn]

I may be a bit out of line in saying this, but it seems odd that a man with 3 masters and a PhD is jobless and living with his mother, as well. Have you seen any proof of his credentials?

 

With that said, I would proceed with caution, as I'm getting the vibe there are red flags on the horizon.

[j.man]

1. Dude sounds like a grade A creeper.

2. Daddy issues should be resolved through therapy, not dating.

[greta96]

One month ago I connected with someone online who I felt incredibly drawn to because of his educational credentials and maturity and who is twice my age. As a 20 year old young woman who is very introverted and depressed, meeting guys my age, let alone feeling attracted to them and them to me has been virtually impossible. I have always fantasized about being involved with a much older man because of unresolved issues with my father who was / is an emotionally abusive, uncaring alcoholic. This man fascinated me, and it was actually me who contacted him first. He is an academic with three master's degrees and a PhD in a field I am studying currently at university. Not only that, but he is highly knowledgeable about the arts and even corresponded with a famous writer when he was around my age. Even better, we met up and had a picnic that lasted almost an entire day, just conversing about books, art, and our inner struggles (both with depression).

 

However, despite the level we connect on, and the constant communication we developed, there were still some things that I felt ambivalent about. Firstly, his rigorous education has not enabled him to land any kind of secure job. He was a lifelong student and only finished his dissertation at age 38, after being in school since before I was born. That doesn't detract from his brilliance to me, but I worry about what kind of future I could have with someone older who isn't even employed (he is looking for work-- he has taught some university classes but not been able to cobble together a living, as they only pay a few thousand each. He applies for tenured positions when he sees them). So for the time being he is living with his mom and (he had moved to Europe for 8 years and came back for his PhD). In many ways, he is sort of emotionally stunted, and his longest relationship has only been 1.5 years, although he has had many casual relationships.

 

After talking for weeks and sharing certain suggestive pics and texts, I met him for the second time yesterday. And we agreed to have no expectation going into our meeting, yet I knew that he anticipated something sexual. The truth is that I am technically a virgin with limited experience kissing let alone anything else, but I managed to fake my knowledge of certain things. I told him the truth about my inexperience and he didn't seem to mind. We actually both share a desire to be in age differential relationships like ours, and he has dated women much younger who have looked up to him as a father figure. Essentially, we just watched movies and TV and talked, fooled around, etc. I had to stay overnight because I couldn't easily leave his bedroom (the basement) without his family seeing a young-looking twenty year old girl coming upstairs. He saw me off early in the morning when they were asleep.

 

I feel many conflicting, turbulent emotions and I don't know how to proceed from here. I want to lose my virginity to him and it almost happened except for the fact that I was due to start that time of month. However, I also know that I might feel a sense of shame or grossness if I did, not because I view sexuality that way, but perhaps because I have started looking at him as a replacement 'daddy' and he wants to be that role for me. And there might also be shame in having one's first time with a man twice one's age, from society's perspective. And we have both discussed the possibility of this becoming a relationship, which I'll admit would provide me with a sense of comfort and inner peace I have always longed for. Of course, the drawback would be that I'd never tell anyone, aside perhaps from a handful of close friends, but certainly none of my family. Also, his lack of employment prospects and inability to support himself financially at his age are a little off-putting. He also seems a bit too into the daddy thing at times, perhaps because his own father was a failure.

 

I guess I just want some input on my situation, and what to do to fulfill my needs while respecting myself, and without getting hurt.

 

Thanks.

 

You do as you wish of course, but the red flags are highlighted in red. I may have missed some.

If he is that brilliant, it makes zero sense for him not to have a job. None. And a 40 year old man being worried about his mom seeing you coming out of her basement where he lives....really? All his "relationships" have been flings based on the young girls' daddy issues. And he has asked for x-rated pics from you before you two even met.

I understand you're young and naive and all, but can you really not see any problem with any of the facts above?

 

Sure, proceed, by all means, but if you continue with this creep, this: "what to do to fulfill my needs while respecting myself, and without getting hurt." won't be possible.

[Zaphod]

We don't, to be fair to the guy, have any evidence of such allegations as of yet.

 

He may be jobless due to health, for example. He could live with his Mother because he wants to look after her, for example.

 

I'm afraid if I had to lay money down on a bet, I'd have to agree with everyone else, but actually that wouldn't be fair to the guy.

 

If you could provide us with more info, that might be useful. Why, for example, did he not want his family to see you? Why does he not have a job? Why does he live with his Mother and family?

 

The "asking for x rated pics" bit is the only real red flag to me currently, based on what we know. That's a bit naughty and I'm afraid doesn't really ring right with me.

[SherrySher]

Sounds like a different version of Norman Bates.

This man has no financial security, he is 40 and is sneaking you out of his basement?? omg..lol....he seems to like younger naive women...sigh...there is no way I would give any woman the advice to be with this man...he sounds creepy and mentally immature and messed up

[Zaphod]

Sounds like a different version of Norman Bates.

This man has no financial security, he is 40 and is sneaking you out of his basement?? omg..lol....he seems to like younger naive women...sigh...there is no way I would give any woman the advice to be with this man...he sounds creepy and mentally immature and messed up

 

IMHO it's unfair to brand a person as such without sufficient evidence.

 

He sounds rather unusual, but creepy? Why? Mentally immature? Why? Are we going to be so superficial as to judge him on his employment status and living arrangements? It does take all kinds to make a world go round, after all, and we're all struggling in today's economy. For all we know, this guy looks after his Mum and is down the homeless shelter helping out of a weekend. Which is probably more than any of us do.

 

He doesn't sound like Norman Bates. He hasn't killed anyone. He's not keeping his dead mother in his loft. I think it's rather unfair to suggest such a thing.

 

Let's wait until we get more evidence or info from the OP to actually make this final judgement.

[greta96]

IMHO it's unfair to brand a person as such without sufficient evidence.

 

He sounds rather unusual, but creepy? Why? Mentally immature? Why? Are we going to be so superficial as to judge him on his employment status and living arrangements? It does take all kinds to make a world go round, after all, and we're all struggling in today's economy. For all we know, this guy looks after his Mum and is down the homeless shelter helping out of a weekend. Which is probably more than any of us do.

 

He doesn't sound like Norman Bates. He hasn't killed anyone. He's not keeping his dead mother in his loft. I think it's rather unfair to suggest such a thing.

 

Let's wait until we get more evidence or info from the OP to actually make this final judgement.

 

While normally I would agree with you, this situation just has too many red flags. I can understand being between jobs at times, but this guy seems to be perpetually unemployed. Much like his girlfriends, his jobs were also fleety and didn't stick. Also, I don't have anything against a man (or a woman) living with their parents, to help them out. I think in certain situations it's even endearing. But in this case, a perpetually unemployed person can't help out, what he does is called 'mooching off' his old mother. He can't even support himself, how can he possibly help out? And why isn't he taking some other kind of jobs, until he is able to find something better suited to his education? Why does he feel the need to hide the women who come spend the night at the house from his mother? Could it be that he knows what he's doing is not right?

Combined with all the other red flags (only dating very young women with daddy issues) and his interactions so far with the OP, the whole thing just smells off.

I don't think the OP got the kind of answers she was hoping for (I'm guessing she wanted some encouragement to take the plunge and have sex with the weirdo), so she may or may not come back with more details.

[emrhi]

We don't, to be fair to the guy, have any evidence of such allegations as of yet.

 

He may be jobless due to health, for example. He could live with his Mother because he wants to look after her, for example.

 

I'm afraid if I had to lay money down on a bet, I'd have to agree with everyone else, but actually that wouldn't be fair to the guy.

 

If you could provide us with more info, that might be useful. Why, for example, did he not want his family to see you? Why does he not have a job? Why does he live with his Mother and family?

 

The "asking for x rated pics" bit is the only real red flag to me currently, based on what we know. That's a bit naughty and I'm afraid doesn't really ring right with me.

 

 

He does not currently have a job because his field (philosophy) has a limited number of positions for tenured professors, and most of them have hundreds of applicants. He has taught courses here and there as a sessional professor. The most he ever made from doing this was $12,000 one year, and was barely able to subsist off his earnings. He was living in Europe for 8 years with two roomates while completing the his masters (first an MPhil, then his father who had cancer passed away, and it set his progress back and he started wanting to explore other subject areas. So he did an MA in cultural anthropology and another interdiscplinary degree). He has admitted that being a student for so long (basically from 1993 until 2014) was his way of delaying adulthood and escaping from his depression and trauma of his upbringing. He now realizes that he needs to find a job, so that is why he is now close to completing his certificate to teach English as a second language.

 

He lives with his mother because its a large, spacious home and he can live there for free. He has no savings or ability to support himself as whatever he earned from teaching the few courses went towards his survival and immediate needs.

 

He was worried about his mother seeing me because admittedly I look young for my age. His younger brother, an artist in his thirties, also lives at home. Both of them bring girls back to their place and of course it doesn't need to be a big deal. I just am a young-looking twenty. His last girlfriend was 31, and he has previously dated another academic lady who was actually two years OLDER, for a couple months last winter. So his pattern is not exclusively to date younger girls, although it is appealing to him.

[Hermes]

In my view, EM. this lies at the heart of the matter:

 

As a 20 year old young woman who is very introverted and depressed, meeting guys my age, let alone feeling attracted to them and them to me has been virtually impossible. I have always fantasized about being involved with a much older man because of unresolved issues with my father who was / is an emotionally abusive, uncaring alcoholic.

 

"but perhaps because I have started looking at him as a replacement 'daddy' and he wants to be that role for me."

 

To enter into any relationship (leaving aside this one altogether) one needs to be on top of one's game, I can tell you. And looking for "daddy" is a very bad idea.

 

Have you sought help for your depression? And to work out your childhood issues as regards your father.... I hope so.

[emrhi]

Yes, I have sought help. I unfortunately cannot afford therapy but I do see a psychiatrist and I've been on 3 different anti-depressants.

[Hermes]

EM. Somehow or other I honestly believe you must seek therapy. Just being on three different sorts of anti-depressants is not the answer.

 

You also mention this man is depressed and his own father was a failure.

 

" he is sort of emotionally stunted,"

 

EM. This is not the relationship you need. It is like getting on a doomed ship and expect it to sail through every storm.

[emrhi]

I can appreciate your advice. Ideally, I would like to see a therapist and start to heal from my childhood. I think part of me will always be intrigued by the dynamic of a sexual relationship with a man who is also acting paternal to me.

 

It was really nice to cuddle next to him and talk about all of my problems and fears and it felt like they went away for a while. He doesn't want to rush me to have sex with him, although he'd probably be disappointed if it didn't happen.

 

I'm not sure I believe that a relationship can't be therapeutic. The other young girl he dated when he was a teaching assistant and she his 19 year old student came from a broken home and had actually been married to an older man she met on the Internet. So it was adultery but she was being abused by the man and he helped her leave her abuser and come clean to her parents and get a divorce. So my situation isn't even as complicated as hers, but either way it is like having an older person who can act as a mentor and guide you in a way a person the same age as you can't.

[Hermes]

I do understand, EM. And just to remark that here it is not about the 20 year age gap. I recall a cousin of the family (now long dead) who at age 23 married a man of 52. It worked out well for them. At the time her father was not at all keen on the marriage but anyhow. They had several children, a busy life and seemed to make a go of it.

 

Here we have a different dynamic. You may wish to lean on this man to make you feel good, however fleetingly. But that is not his job. Which is why I say it would be tremendously good for you if somehow you could seek therapy. It is only when we are in a well-adjusted stable position ourselves, on our own, that we will and can draw a healthy relationship with another.

 

 

Aaaah yes, EM.

 

having an older person who can act as a mentor and guide you in a way a person the same age as you can't.

 

But that older mentor must be an outsider, an objective third party and definitely NOT the person with whom you are having or contemplating having a relationship.

 

And, EM, there is this aspect:

 

"... the drawback would be that I'd never tell anyone, aside perhaps from a handful of close friends, but certainly none of my family".

 

Why? What would happen if you told your family?

[emrhi]

And, EM, there is this aspect:

 

"... the drawback would be that I'd never tell anyone, aside perhaps from a handful of close friends, but certainly none of my family".

 

Why? What would happen if you told your family?

 

I'm afraid of the unknown. My mother is terribly meddlesome although she does love me and wants the best for me. My father is a controlling, domineering alcoholic and probably would want to kill this man.

[Hermes]

Well, EM, if you were to enter a relationship with this man (and I absolutely would discourage you from so doing), your family will find out sooner or later.

 

Do you want to live on a knife-edge like that?

 

Once again, get some professional help for yourself, and build yourself up.

[Jibralta]

He doesn't sound like good relationship material. Maybe ok for a sexual relationship, if that's what you want, but avoid attributing qualities to him that he does not deserve. Also, you know, practice safe sex and all of that.