Is marriage worth it?

[dias]

It seems like a lot of men in my generation (gen y) are hesitant to settle down. Part of me wonders if it's because divorce has made such an impact on so many, or if men are just becoming more entitled, and less willing to settle down. It drives me crazy! I live in the northeastern US, and the majority of my friends agree with me. I'm hoping once we hit our 30s things will change, but lately I'm not convinced!

 

PS: No offense to the guys out there, this is just what I have noticed around me. I have a few guy friends that are married, but the number of players/serial daters is much larger!

You should go for older men. Generally speaking men are willing to get married at the age of 35. Nowadays that you have to build a career you need to focus on your job. This explains why most men from 23 to 30 don't want to commit. And then you want 2-3 years to enjoy what you have built. Bad era for relationships.

[Heartsonfire12]

Heartsonfire12,

 

could you explain what you mean by:

 

or if men are just becoming more entitled, and less willing to settle down.

 

Sure! I basically mean GIGS -there are endless options and statistically more guys than girls. If there is an ounce of anything that annoys them, they just figure they can find someone else to have their needs met, primarily because there seems to be more of a hook up culture than ever before. They fear commitment and want everything on their terms.

 

Again, this doesn't apply to all men universally, but it's definitely a trend by me.

[Heartsonfire12]

It's funny because I'm 26 and in the northeast too, and I've met lots of relationship minded men, both single and in relationships. I don't know if it's who I hang out with or attract. I know there are players out there but I seem to repel them and them me as well.

 

That's a valid point. I may have generalized too much - I find the SINGLE men are players and don't want to settle down. I'm glad you're not dealing with the players, and hope to have that luck soon. Thanks for giving me some hope!

[Heartsonfire12]

You should go for older men. Generally speaking men are willing to get married at the age of 35. Nowadays that you have to build a career you need to focus on your job. This explains why most men from 23 to 30 don't want to commit. And then you want 2-3 years to enjoy what you have built. Bad era for relationships.

 

Thanks for the advice, really great perspective. I'm 28 so this could definitely be an approach for me. I can understand the pressure of financial stability before marriage, but it drives me nuts that the companionship element lacks (at least in my last relationship, but he did a 180 from my initial impression of him and turned out to be a huge jerk). Appreciate your insight!

[dias]

Thanks for the advice, really great perspective. I'm 28 so this could definitely be an approach for me. I can understand the pressure of financial stability before marriage, but it drives me nuts that the companionship element lacks (at least in my last relationship, but he did a 180 from my initial impression of him and turned out to be a huge jerk). Appreciate your insight!

If you had told me this one year ago , I would have sent you my cousin who lives in NYC . . Also you should check if the guy has divorced parents. Being raised in a stable environment constitutes a very important factor of how a person sees/deals with relationships later in life .

[Seraphim]

Having divorced parents doesn't condemn anybody to unstable relationships. My parents divorced when I was five. My mom and my first step dad divorced when I was 12. My mom and my birth dad got back together when I was 14 and finally ended the relationship when I was 24. My mom married my second step dad 21 years ago.

 

I have been with the same man for 27 years and we are married almost 22 of them.

[dias]

Having divorced parents doesn't condemn anybody to unstable relationships. My parents divorced when I was five. My mom and my first step dad divorced when I was 12. My mom and my birth dad got back together when I was 14 and finally ended the relationship when I was 24. My mom married my second step dad 21 years ago.

 

I have been with the same man for 27 years and we are married almost 22 of them.

I didn't mean to generalize and i didn't have the intention to offend anybody with divorced parents .

[Seraphim]

Oh I am not offended. It used to bother me when I was little kid because people made fun of me for having divorced parents but now is an almost 50-year-old it doesn't bother me at all.

[TMifune]

Sure! I basically mean GIGS -there are endless options and statistically more guys than girls. If there is an ounce of anything that annoys them, they just figure they can find someone else to have their needs met, primarily because there seems to be more of a hook up culture than ever before. They fear commitment and want everything on their terms.

 

Again, this doesn't apply to all men universally, but it's definitely a trend by me.

 

If you consider that traditionally men trade commitment for sex, then the "hook-up" culture has drastically decreased the value of commitment for men because many women will have sex long before the idea of being committed is even introduced. Additionally, if sex is a very high value, then it changes the internal pressures in a relationship because if he doesn't like something about the relationship he knows that even after ending it sex is still available.

 

I'm anti promiscuity for both men and women. Since women are generally the selectors, the gatekeepers of sex, the rise in female promiscuity has been great for people who just want to screw around, but it's generally damaging to the prospects of both men and women who are seeking commitment.

 

I guess it's another value that people really need to make sure they're compatible on before they get attached.

[lukeb]

Feminism supports men getting equal time with their child, and women not automatically getting custudy because Feminism holds that just because your a woman doesn't mean you are automatically better at raising children, and just because your a man means your bad at it.

 

Anyway, I hope you have found some good information in the posts here. Fact remains that the divorce rate is dropping and the courts are because more open to men and puishing any parent that alients a child from the other parent.

 

Women get screwed in divorces just as often as men do. Like my mom, who ended up with a toddler, pregnant, and having to work full time because her drug addicted ex husband stopped working and refused to get a job.

 

There is no reason to believe that this is true. You can believe in Feminism and believe it is a good thing, but it not about equality. Some people do make the concept so broad that is doesn't have any meaning at all, and if you are that person you are kind of doing a disservice to that cause. What Feminism is, is a reaction to what most people believe is a male-dominated society (patriarchy) where we live in a rape culture, etc., and can by definition not be about equality. Now it is possible to be a Feminist and believe in equality, as it is possible to believe in two different things, but Feminism is NOT about equality.

 

Personally I do not believe that we (western world) live in a patriarchy because I do not think power is distributed equal. Now it is important how you define power, but most of it is held by the elites in society, very few, and of those yes most of the elites are men. Most men though in society have little power, control over their lives, and it could arguably be said be said that they have less power over their lives than women ... on average. I do agree that that is arguable depending on your definition of power, and there are many different ways to looking at it.

 

What I am certain of that the least powerful, if you want to put it in those terms, are the unsuccessful men in society, nobody cares about them, they get no sympathy from other men, and not as far as I can tell from other women. I was reading an article in the local paper on suicide, in the area where I live, the rate of suicide is actually 10 men to every 1 woman, the interesting part, if that wasn't enough, was that the article highlighted two cases who were both women, to me that is a pretty stark example that society doesn't care about the suffering of men. The point isn't of course that in those two examples those families didn't suffer, my heart goes out to them, I just wanted to highlight an outrageous bias in the media and in society. I do want to say in fairness both men and women in general don't care about the suffering of men.

[dias]

There is no reason to believe that this is true. You can believe in Feminism and believe it is a good thing, but it not about equality. Some people do make the concept so broad that is doesn't have any meaning at all, and if you are that person you are kind of doing a disservice to that cause. What Feminism is, is a reaction to what most people believe is a male-dominated society (patriarchy) where we live in a rape culture, etc., and can by definition not be about equality. Now it is possible to be a Feminist and believe in equality, as it is possible to believe in two different things, but Feminism is NOT about equality.

 

Personally I do not believe that we (western world) live in a patriarchy because I do not think power is distributed equal. Now it is important how you define power, but most of it is held by the elites in society, very few, and of those yes most of the elites are men. Most men though in society have little power, control over their lives, and it could arguably be said be said that they have less power over their lives than women ... on average. I do agree that that is arguable depending on your definition of power, and there are many different ways to looking at it.

 

What I am certain of that the least powerful, if you want to put it in those terms, are the unsuccessful men in society, nobody cares about them, they get no sympathy from other men, and not as far as I can tell from other women. I was reading an article in the local paper on suicide, in the area where I live, the rate of suicide is actually 10 men to every 1 woman, the interesting part, if that wasn't enough, was that the article highlighted two cases who were both women, to me that is a pretty stark example that society doesn't care about the suffering of men. The point isn't of course that in those two examples those families didn't suffer, my heart goes out to them, I just wanted to highlight an outrageous bias in the media and in society. I do want to say in fairness both men and women in general don't care about the suffering of men.

 

1) Because men ,by nature, tend to be more ambitious . Statistically speaking always.

2)Again because men by nature have way more ego than women and are very competitive with other males.

[IAmFCA]

1) Because men ,by nature, tend to be more ambitious . Statistically speaking always.

2)Again because men by nature have way more ego than women and are very competitive with other males.

 

I agree with neither of these gender-based assignments of character. The imbalance of the suicide rate - how awful - could also be because the men did not have to rebel to speak their minds, but upon embracing adulthood, found it overwhelming and had no practice having to fight for themselves.

 

The advantage of being part ofI a group that is regularly marginalized is it forces a person to look to themselves for validation and approval, and that can be a useful skill indeed.

[lukeb]

I agree with neither of these gender-based assignments of character. The imbalance of the suicide rate - how awful - could also be because the men did not have to rebel to speak their minds, but upon embracing adulthood, found it overwhelming and had no practice having to fight for themselves.

 

 

To me that sounds very much like framing the problems that men are having within a feminist framework. What it sounds like you are saying men had it so good historically, now that they are brought up to closer to equality they are not up for the challenge of everyday life. At best you are blaming the patriarchy, at worst you are blaming the suicide victims themselves.

[lukeb]

Women get screwed in divorces just as often as men do. Like my mom, who ended up with a toddler, pregnant, and having to work full time because her drug addicted ex husband stopped working and refused to get a job.

 

I disagree your mom got screwed in the divorce, though it could be said she was in a difficult situation, and in many ways courageous in what she decided to do. She was holding all the power. The power to use birth control, or get an abortion, give the child up for adoption. There may have been other options such as you grand parents could have adopted the baby and kept a meaningful relationship with her child while pursuing a career, or other options I haven't thought of. She did not however get screwed by society. We don't do slavery anymore, so her drug addicted ex husband could not be forced to work. What was the divorce court to do? Here is a whip, go at it, he gave up any rights when he didn't use a condom.

[Moontiger]

Interesting that some people are ok with drug addicts getting 50% custody. I'm

Sure if a woman was a drug addict and got any custody you would say that same thing, right?

 

Obviously I can't post all the details but she certainly got screwed in her divorce.

[lukeb]

Interesting that some people are ok with drug addicts getting 50% custody. I'm

Sure if a woman was a drug addict and got any custody you would say that same thing, right?

 

Obviously I can't post all the details but she certainly got screwed in her divorce.

 

Yes I can't say, one way or another, the differences are often in the details and you are right not to post them in this specific case. . Personally even without knowing any details I do think I would be saying the same thing one way or another if the situation was reversed. I'm not sure if that helps. You've seen in my other posts, I do like to think I hold men and women equally accountable for their actions. Whenever I don't I invite people to call me out on it.

 

I am fairly liberal when it comes to drug use, for me anyways I don't think it should be an automatic dis qualifier in custody cases, it depends on the details and the spill-over effects that the drug use could have. I know I would be saying the same thing for men and women. To answer the question, yes I would be saying the same thing, whatever that may be.

[Clinton]

It's simple, you don't want to take the risk, become a serial dater. That will probably get old fast but at least you won't risk the dreaded divorce and the apparent life of poverty and hopelessness that follows it. God help those poor people because they'll be damaged beyond repair and unable to put food on the table due to their heinous divorce settlements.

 

PS

Has anyone on this thread actually been through a divorce? Because I seem to remember going through one myself with kids, and it didn't seem to resemble the little shop of horrors being described in this thread. And my friends who divorced seem to be making out OK. Of course maybe that's just the mental trauma and shock making us not accept our reality, who knows.

[TMifune]

It's simple, you don't want to take the risk, become a serial dater. That will probably get old fast but at least you won't risk the dreaded divorce and the apparent life of poverty and hopelessness that follows it. God help those poor people because they'll be damaged beyond repair and unable to put food on the table due to their heinous divorce settlements.

 

Of course people shouldn't take risks they think are too high, and people are fine to take the risks that they're willing to risk. But that doesn't explain the bitterness people are directing at others simply for pointing out that it's risky. Why the backlash. Hell, your post is dripping with sarcasm. It's laced with the idea that the risks aren't really that bad. The risks are that bad. That doesn't mean that everyone gets screwed. it just means that the people who get screwed get screwed really badly. It doesn't mean that people shouldn't get married, but why on earth would anyone object to people making an informed decision?

 

Pointing out the risks is just another way to tell people to choose wisely. Would people object to saying, "if you're going to get married, make sure you choose who you marry wisely?"

 

I truly don't understand why there's so much snark about this.

 

PS

Has anyone on this thread actually been through a divorce? Because I seem to remember going through one myself with kids, and it didn't seem to resemble the little shop of horrors being described in this thread. And my friends who divorced seem to be making out OK. Of course maybe that's just the mental trauma and shock making us not accept our reality, who knows.

 

This is really just the argument from authority fallacy. Haven't been through a divorce? Then you can't have an opinion on it. Just remember that if you want to make that argument here, you're almost guaranteed to be inconsistent in the long run.

 

If I told you a story about child abuse would you say it was wrong? What would you say if I said, "Well, you can't have an opinion on child abuse because you don't have children." But wait you argue...."Beating helpless children in clearly immoral". No, I'm sorry but you're not a trained philosopher or religious leader, so you don't get to have an opinion on what's moral.

 

Saying you can't have an opinion on divorce unless you've been divorced is every bit as absurd as the example above.

 

I'm glad your divorce "wasn't that bad", but your anecdotal evidence amounts to 1 sample out of the roughly 3/4 of a million divorces that take place every year (in the US alone).

[Heartsonfire12]

If you consider that traditionally men trade commitment for sex, then the "hook-up" culture has drastically decreased the value of commitment for men because many women will have sex long before the idea of being committed is even introduced. Additionally, if sex is a very high value, then it changes the internal pressures in a relationship because if he doesn't like something about the relationship he knows that even after ending it sex is still available.

 

I'm anti promiscuity for both men and women. Since women are generally the selectors, the gatekeepers of sex, the rise in female promiscuity has been great for people who just want to screw around, but it's generally damaging to the prospects of both men and women who are seeking commitment.

 

I guess it's another value that people really need to make sure they're compatible on before they get attached.

 

I hear you! A lot of young women seem to think promiscuity will lead to a relationship, or get scared that if they don't put out the guy will lose interest. It's sad, because they don't realize if he loses interest because you don't sleep with him, he isn't the type of man you deserve.

 

I do feel like Hollywood has made promiscuity more acceptable. I love Sex & the City, but i know waaaay too many girls who try to live that lifestyle.

[Heartsonfire12]

Haha thanks for looking out for me, Dias!

[Blue Spiral]

It's simple, you don't want to take the risk, become a serial dater. That will probably get old fast

 

I don't know what one would call what I've been doing...but I did it for a decade and a half, and the only reason I gave up was because it got to be too much work.

 

(For the record, I've been in monogamous relationships for roughly a year, year and a half of my life. Other than that, I've always been single.)

 

p.s.: I am pro-promiscuity and a hedonist in general, though I certainly don't look like one. Sex and the City and Eat Pray Love were some of the best things to ever happen, as far as I'm concerned...

[Clinton]

Of course people shouldn't take risks they think are too high, and people are fine to take the risks that they're willing to risk. But that doesn't explain the bitterness people are directing at others simply for pointing out that it's risky. Why the backlash. Hell, your post is dripping with sarcasm. It's laced with the idea that the risks aren't really that bad. The risks are that bad. That doesn't mean that everyone gets screwed. it just means that the people who get screwed get screwed really badly. It doesn't mean that people shouldn't get married, but why on earth would anyone object to people making an informed decision?

 

Pointing out the risks is just another way to tell people to choose wisely. Would people object to saying, "if you're going to get married, make sure you choose who you marry wisely?"

 

I truly don't understand why there's so much snark about this.

 

 

 

This is really just the argument from authority fallacy. Haven't been through a divorce? Then you can't have an opinion on it. Just remember that if you want to make that argument here, you're almost guaranteed to be inconsistent in the long run.

 

If I told you a story about child abuse would you say it was wrong? What would you say if I said, "Well, you can't have an opinion on child abuse because you don't have children." But wait you argue...."Beating helpless children in clearly immoral". No, I'm sorry but you're not a trained philosopher or religious leader, so you don't get to have an opinion on what's moral.

 

Saying you can't have an opinion on divorce unless you've been divorced is every bit as absurd as the example above.

 

I'm glad your divorce "wasn't that bad", but your anecdotal evidence amounts to 1 sample out of the roughly 3/4 of a million divorces that take place every year (in the US alone).

 

So I'm taking it that you haven't been married or experienced divorce?

[Clinton]

I don't know what one would call what I've been doing...but I did it for a decade and a half, and the only reason I gave up was because it got to be too much work.

 

(For the record, I've been in monogamous relationships for roughly a year, year and a half of my life. Other than that, I've always been single.)

 

p.s.: I am pro-promiscuity and a hedonist in general, though I certainly don't look like one. Sex and the City and Eat Pray Love were some of the best things to ever happen, as far as I'm concerned...

 

I can totally respect that if that's what makes you happy

[Moontiger]

It's simple, you don't want to take the risk, become a serial dater. That will probably get old fast but at least you won't risk the dreaded divorce and the apparent life of poverty and hopelessness that follows it. God help those poor people because they'll be damaged beyond repair and unable to put food on the table due to their heinous divorce settlements.

 

PS

Has anyone on this thread actually been through a divorce? Because I seem to remember going through one myself with kids, and it didn't seem to resemble the little shop of horrors being described in this thread. And my friends who divorced seem to be making out OK. Of course maybe that's just the mental trauma and shock making us not accept our reality, who knows.

 

It is interesting that (from what I can tell at least) few to no people on this thread have been through a divorce.

 

I haven't either so I can only speak to what I have seen others going through. Including my mom getting screwed in her divorce and my BF having an amicable divorce from his ex (they've been divorced for roughly 2 years, we've been dating for six months). Not once I have personally see this house of horrors described here where men loss out on everything and women take every last dime and live in luxury.

[TMifune]

So I'm taking it that you haven't been married or experienced divorce?

 

I have not been through a divorce. But it's really irrelevant to the topic at hand. The whole thing is just a deflection as evidenced by your ignoring everything else I said and focusing entirely on the inconsequential. It doesn't matter from any kind of moral or rational standpoint.

 

Aside from it being a logical fallacy, it's also pretty insensitive. Children haven't been through a divorce but they're damned sure effected by their parents divorce. So are parents, brothers, sisters, friends, workplaces (lost productivity). But they can't have any opinion because they haven't been divorced?

 

Puh-lease.