Blue Spiral Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 In previous decades a woman was expected to stay in an abusive/unhealthy marriage because it was unheard of to pursue a divorce. In America, 70% of divorces are initiated by women. Do you think that the majority of those are because of abuse? And what constitutes "unhealthy", here? I personally suspect that "frivorces"--frivolous divorces--are much more common than abuse-caused divorces. Very well said! We're taught all kinds of totally useless crap in school, but nothing of emotional intelligence or how to maintain and develop any kind of relationship not just romantic. I can remember being in a high school math class on a day when a ton of people were gone because of an activity, so we weren't really doing much. The teacher talked with us about a lot of random stuff. He said that most of us wouldn't really need what we were learning in his class, or most of our classes. It was just memorization and repeating the stuff we'd learned in years past. We learned the same American history stuff every year, etc. According to him, they kept us there to develop our social skills, which they apparently expected us to figure out on our own. This absolutely shocked me. I was also horrified, because, well, my social skills were still MIA... Boys in particular need to be taught this stuff. Social skills, emotional intelligence, whatever you want to call it. You can't rely on the parents. We live in an increasingly social world, and those of us without social skills are at a serious disadvantage. Link to comment
PH Suite Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 I believe the 48% divorce rate, absolutely. Whether it's 50% or 35%, what about the ...oh... 90% or so of people who are married unhappily and wish they weren't? Too afraid to leave, can't afford it, stay together for the kids, etc. Link to comment
Blue Spiral Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Whether it's 50% or 35%, what about the ...oh... 90% or so of people who are married unhappily and wish they weren't? Too afraid to leave, can't afford it, stay together for the kids, etc. Indeed. Imagine if you could add up the following: --the percentage of people who get divorced. --the percentage of people who are unhappily married. --the percentage of people who think they're happily married, but their spouse is secretly cheating on them. --the percentage of people who think they're happily married, but don't realize that their spouse settled for them and regrets it and plans to eventually cheat and/or take them for everything they have. Link to comment
Seraphim Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Is there anything more resent then 1997? That's pretty dated TBH. I'm on my phone or I would search and post findings. Again my understanding is that divorce rates spiked in the 90s but I would have to do more research to be sure. Yeah , I have data from 2008. Link to comment
ottawa Posted November 13, 2015 Author Share Posted November 13, 2015 in response to quote "Whether it's 50% or 35%, what about the ...oh... 90% or so of people who are married unhappily and wish they weren't? Too afraid to leave, can't afford it, stay together for the kids, etc." correct me if i'm wrong, but there is probably no info about how many people are married unhappily. happy people will admit it, unhappy might not admit it and pretend its fine. Link to comment
Fudgie Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Whether it's 50% or 35%, what about the ...oh... 90% or so of people who are married unhappily and wish they weren't? Too afraid to leave, can't afford it, stay together for the kids, etc. This is a problem with every committed couple, not just married people. If you cohabitate and have kids/house or apartment/shared assets, you can get into the same situation. Marriage aside, this is why I think it's EXTREMELY important to know thy self and what you want. Marriage is not for everyone and that is okay; it shouldn't be the be all and end all of relationships, it's just one way that people may opt to go. Don't get married until you've been together for a long time, are a bit older, not doing it on a whim/because of romantic feelings, and you have protected yourself with a prenup if you are coming in with assets that you want to protect. Link to comment
Moontiger Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Here a more modern (in this century) article. Looks like things are getting better! EDIT: Here is another one, also from 2014: / Link to comment
TMifune Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 You also have to consider the fact that many more women are initiating divorces because they can do so without as much judgment from society. In previous decades a woman was expected to stay in an abusive/unhealthy marriage because it was unheard of to pursue a divorce. If rates have risen it's because we no longer expect people to stay in detrimental or harmful relationships - there is a way out. No-fault divorce handed a loaded gun to people and didn't bother to tell them anything about firearm safety. They just said "here, use this when you get scared". In cases of abuse, I don't think there's really much question. Nobody (well, nobody decent) wants women or men to be trapped in abusive marriages. But there is something very significant about the fact that women initiate divorce at a rate of more than 2:1 compared to men. We certainly can't draw the conclusion that men are aholes at twice the rate women are, especially when the statistics show that men and women's rates of "bad behavior" in general tend to be close. (For instance infidelity happens at nearly the same rates for both men and women). Absent abuse, studies have shown that couples who work on their marriage and "tough it out" end up reporting being happier in 5 years than couples who dissolve their marriages and attempt to rush off to the next big thing. On some level, I think no-fault divorce has removed some of the seriousness from getting married. Sure, there's still social pressure and some self-shame that happens when people get divorced, but largely the social consequences are much less severe than previously. This in-turn makes the act of committing much less serious for many people. It's not a "life-long" commitment anymore, it's a "life-long" commitment unless there's a stumbling block, or I get a little depressed and don't know what I want anymore, or unless something better comes along. For many it's become a default commitment which is really no commitment at all. "Well, I'll just do this until I decide I don't want to do this anymore". And I think that's somewhat tragic. I think the commitment of marriage is supposed to be serious enough to pressure you to find a way to get along. To allow you little choice but to find a way to communicate. Because in the act of coming together to solve whatever problem arose in the relationship is a better and deeper relationship. I think many people just bail when it gets tough and they deprive themselves of the opportunity to build something better. Well that, and they go into marriage thinking about what they're going to get out of it without much thought given to what they're going to put into it. I don't think it helps that we publish and glorify books that tell women abandoning their commitments is "life affirming", "liberating" and "empowering". Link to comment
PH Suite Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 This is a problem with every committed couple, not just married people. If you cohabitate and have kids/house or apartment/shared assets, you can get into the same situation. Marriage aside, this is why I think it's EXTREMELY important to know thy self and what you want. Marriage is not for everyone and that is okay; it shouldn't be the be all and end all of relationships, it's just one way that people may opt to go. Don't get married until you've been together for a long time, are a bit older, not doing it on a whim/because of romantic feelings, and you have protected yourself with a prenup if you are coming in with assets that you want to protect. Good point. Hadn't thought of that because I would and will never share kids/assets/home-ownership with someone I'm not married to. Didn't even share those things when I was married (no kids, amicable split after a decade of having a blast, no-fault divorce cost me about $300). Link to comment
PH Suite Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 in response to quote "Whether it's 50% or 35%, what about the ...oh... 90% or so of people who are married unhappily and wish they weren't? Too afraid to leave, can't afford it, stay together for the kids, etc." correct me if i'm wrong, but there is probably no info about how many people are married unhappily. happy people will admit it, unhappy might not admit it and pretend its fine. Anecdotal estimate from a wide variety of couples I know, as well as what most people report about their own parents who are still together. Perhaps slight hyperbole to make a cogent point. Link to comment
ottawa Posted November 13, 2015 Author Share Posted November 13, 2015 a good quick video about this topic Link to comment
Blue Spiral Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Here a more modern (in this century) article. Looks like things are getting better! EDIT: Here is another one, also from 2014: ] I don't have any comment on the NYT article. But the other one...yes, shocker, a religious site wants people to get married. I'm sure that tvnerdgirl could find all sorts of articles she'd love on that site. (I wish ENA had a sarcasm font.) If we have fewer divorces, I think it's at least partially because fewer people are getting married...and because fewer people can afford to get divorced. A growing number of men aren't falling for your "it's getting better" claim. Link to comment
Seraphim Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 If you don't want to get married, it's easy. DON'T! How is this difficult? Link to comment
Blue Spiral Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 If you don't want to get married, it's easy. DON'T! How is this difficult? Oh, I won't. But I'm not going to stand idly by while the lambs are told that the slaughterhouse is actually a much-desired vacation spot... Link to comment
Seraphim Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 People are still going to get married if they want to. Link to comment
Moontiger Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 I guess I just don't understand totally ignoring any information that doesn't confirm what you want to be true. But that's just me. I love looking at studies and numbers (big Nate Silver fan. ) Anyway, with the overall divorce rate going down, and courts slowly catching up with society, I think things are on a good track. I don't think there will ever be a time when marriage is totally risk-free. Just like there is never going to be a time when you will know for sure you will love a job before trying it (I've worked for some crazy bosses...) but things are getting better and realistically that is all we can hope for. Link to comment
Moontiger Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 More fun reads! "The refined divorce rate - the number of divorces per 1,000 married woman - includes only those people at risk of divorce, so social scientists and demographers see it as preferable to the crude rate. Using this routine, the divorce rate ranged from a low of 14.3 in North Dakota to a high of 34.5 in Washington, D.C., for a national average of 19.4, according to National Center for Family and Marriage Research. Using this regime, in 2008, divorce fell from a rate of 17 divorces per 1,000 married women in 2007 to 16.9 per 1,000 married women" Link to comment
Blue Spiral Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 I guess I just don't understand totally ignoring any information that doesn't confirm what you want to be true. You...you think that men want relationships to be incredibly dangerous?? So we either agree with you, or we're ignoring information? That's convenient...why not vice-versa? I repeat: Russian Roulette with three bullets, Russian Roulette with two bullets--not much of a difference, to me. Link to comment
Seraphim Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 Not all men see marriage as " oooooooo boogery boogery dangerous." That's kind of what these threads imply. Which is BS EO in a major way. Link to comment
Moontiger Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 Not all men see marriage as " oooooooo boogery boogery dangerous." That's kind of what these threads imply. Which is BS EO in a major way. Yup. I've meet more women afraid of, or not wanting to get married more then I have men. But that's probably just my social circle. I think it's probably pretty equal. My mom, after her 2nd marriage (first one was when she was 18 and it lastest exactly 2 months) ended was pregnant, with a kid, had to work full time. It was not a walk in the park at all. Which is also being implied in this thread, woman get it easy why men get it hard. Well that certainly was not the case for my mom. Even though their bio-dad was a drug addict he got 50% custody of them. Link to comment
Moontiger Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 Totally unscientific but I still find this super interesting (the last one is especially relevent to this thread) Link to comment
Seraphim Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 I am almost 50 and never yet known one person in my life who was terrified to be married. Link to comment
Moontiger Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 I am almost 50 and never yet known one person in my life who was terrified to be married. My BFF in college (a woman) NEVER wanted to get married or have kids. Like EVER. She was very strongly against it. Then she meet her fiance. They've been engaged for a year and own a house. They are saving up for their dream wedding. Link to comment
Seraphim Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 The way I see it if people dont want to be married then heck PLEASE DON'T. It is not difficult. Link to comment
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