Please stop me from just walking out...

[ParisPaulette]

Catfeeder's advice is excellent and true. After I left Corporate America I thought, "I'll never need to put up with bad bosses again!" And then here came the clients... My best client is a woman who makes me pull my hair out, but at the end of it all after we've duked it out she sings my praises and pays me better than anyone else. So yeah, I've adopted that shield pretty well.

 

So yes, it's true you are going to have to deal with people. But a toxic workplace, a truly toxic one, is best left when possible. And the whole Landmark thing, I agree, is where you stepped on the wrong foot. But that's not your fault. Reminds me of the boss who kept trying to strong arm everyone in the office to buy Amway. I've fled more than one person and business over attempts to get me to "sell, sell, buy, buy" crap I didn't need or want. Plus I hate sales anyways.

 

Anyways fingers crossed for you tomorrow.

[Heather Dawn]

Thanks!! This company is internationally known, and I've read several interviews with their recruiters and execs saying they prize creativity and effort in applicants - so I created a Facebook page for myself AND a Power Point/Keynote presentation that I'm hoping will win them over. I feel pretty good since this company is notoriously hard to get an interview with, yet they came to me, So...*fingers crossed*!!! Either way, SOMETHING will come along and get me out of this place...

[journeynow]

From my experience, job descriptions flex, responsibilities shift, especially with small or start-up businesses. I agree with catfeeder, consider the business your client, or one of your clients, and your role is to help things run smoother for THEM. You are in a support role for them, not a leadership role. Leaders like their leadership reinforced. I've had many discussions with others who have had particularly territorial bosses, and they learned that instead of using their initiative to offer an improvement their best approach was to let the boss think it is their own idea. (Better happy than right, I suppose.)

 

I'm self-employed now and happy with it, very happy to not be surrounded by office politics and frustrating personalities. Well, there are still personalities to deal with, people are people, and in general they don't like to be challenged.

 

I read some of your earlier thread…another thing I've encountered working for others is that it works best to arrive before the start time and in some jobs it's expected so that you are up and running and fully engaged AT your "start" time, and shutting down to leave does not happen before your end time, so you rarely get out the door AT your end time. Of course there are exceptions at different businesses. Extra-carricular stuff, though?…I'd send off an automatic message saying what time I'll be available to give them my full attention, and not engage when my attention is elsewhere (as it should be). Clear boundaries, supported by doing your best work appropriately.

 

I certainly don't fault you for leaving, and I encourage you to treat this phase as training and research….you are learning a lot about how to treat people under you, and how not to.

[journeynow]

Something sort of minor from your other thread

 

So the trip was last week. I return to work today (after working from home Mon and Tues due to a health issue) and basically only one person says boo to me. No one asks how I'm feeling or says hello except for one co-worker and the two bosses.

 

Don't say "no one" when three out of 7 people said hello. Maybe you detected tension of some sort, and it's fine to state it at that. But in life, in general, watch the words you use with yourself. I mean this in general for everyone. Ones personal dialogue colors their world and it not always accurate. Avoid detracting from your own happiness by using overly negative interpretations or absolutes such as no one, everyone, never, always.

[Heather Dawn]

Something sort of minor from your other thread

 

 

 

Don't say "no one" when three out of 7 people said hello. Maybe you detected tension of some sort, and it's fine to state it at that. But in life, in general, watch the words you use with yourself. I mean this in general for everyone. Ones personal dialogue colors their world and it not always accurate. Avoid detracting from your own happiness by using overly negative interpretations or absolutes such as no one, everyone, never, always.

 

Well, I should re-phrase, I guess. ONE co-worker said a genuine hello and asked how I was feeling; my two bosses said hello because we had to interact, but they didn't ask and they barely acknowledged me, otherwise.

 

But I do get what you're saying.

[journeynow]

Well, I should re-phrase, I guess. ONE co-worker said a genuine hello and asked how I was feeling; my two bosses said hello because we had to interact, but they didn't ask and they barely acknowledged me, otherwise.

 

That's fine, though, it's work.

[j.man]

That's fine, though, it's work.

It really does get me thinking a bit. Between candidly disagreeing with the comptroller, debating duty prioritization with the boss, and expecting more familiarity toward her in the workplace, Heather does seem to take a few liberties for herself that would likely put her at odds with quite a few management teams (not at all to take away from these guys you work for being ****s).

 

I apologize if I've missed any details that would answer this, but how many employers have you worked for? Have you found your more candid professional attitude has worked well for you in the past?

 

Again, particularly from you detailed in your previous thread, I don't got any love for the guys you work under now, but I'd hate for you to land yourself a great position with a group such as that which reached out to you before and then have similar professional conflicts.

 

I apologize if I've misread this in any way. I stick by the consensus you need to jump ship at the first good opportunity. I just know on a few different occasions, I've read an account of your interactions and thought, "Errr...."

[Heather Dawn]

Here's the thing: It's a very small company (again, nine people) and very, very casual. The comptroller visits often and brings beer; he's gone bowling with us (team outing) and got drunk. So if you were envisioning me being super candid in a situation that was much more formal and buttoned-up, that's not what the situation is at all.

 

Additionally, the conversation recounted above was in regard to something they wanted me to do in my personal time. Landmark is basically a cult, and one of its key tenets is recruiting new members. I'm sorry, but if you're going to try and pressure me into something like that when it's clear I'm not interested, then you've already crossed lines.

 

Also, I spend every single day good-naturedly bearing the brunt of age jokes, having comments made in regard to being female (i.e. "We all know women are crazy," or "Heather, you vacuum this spot - you're a woman.") That's how it is there.

 

I've never had issues with what you're terming a more candid professional attitude before, no - because I adapt to the situation. If I'm candid here, it's because that's how this company is run.

 

As for expecting more familiarity - that's also due to how it normally is. When you walk into a very small office where normally we're all talking and chatting and discussing our previous evening, and suddenly no one says anything, that's the unusual part - not the other way around. We all know one another's SOs, we've seen each other drunk/tipsy, sick, angry, sad, happy, etc. That's just how it is. The bosses cultivate that "familiar" tone, which is not unusual in a small, agency setting.

[DoF]

Here's the thing: It's a very small company (again, nine people) and very, very casual. The comptroller visits often and brings beer; he's gone bowling with us (team outing) and got drunk. So if you were envisioning me being super candid in a situation that was much more formal and buttoned-up, that's not what the situation is at all.

 

This is NOT appropriate. I have a feeling drinking and driving is also involved.

 

Again, ACCEPT/RECOGNIZE the type of people you are working for /dealing with.

 

Personally, I would NOT go to such an event, but I would not say anything about it......"sorry, I have on this day"

 

 

 

Additionally, the conversation recounted above was in regard to something they wanted me to do in my personal time. Landmark is basically a cult, and one of its key tenets is recruiting new members. I'm sorry, but if you're going to try and pressure me into something like that when it's clear I'm not interested, then you've already crossed lines.

 

Good work, never EVER let your job spill into your life!

 

Also, I spend every single day good-naturedly bearing the brunt of age jokes, having comments made in regard to being female (i.e. "We all know women are crazy," or "Heather, you vacuum this spot - you're a woman.") That's how it is there.

 

If you can swallow your pride great, but honestly, you need to get away from those people.....OR you will become LIKE them!!! I don't care how much of a leader one might be, when you are around certain environment long enough, you WILL become part of it and like it. Human nature

 

Find a new job ASAP!!!

 

I've never had issues with what you're terming a more candid professional attitude before, no - because I adapt to the situation. If I'm candid here, it's because that's how this company is run.

 

As for expecting more familiarity - that's also due to how it normally is. When you walk into a very small office where normally we're all talking and chatting and discussing our previous evening, and suddenly no one says anything, that's the unusual part - not the other way around. We all know one another's SOs, we've seen each other drunk/tipsy, sick, angry, sad, happy, etc. That's just how it is. The bosses cultivate that "familiar" tone, which is not unusual in a small, agency setting.

 

Exactly what I was referring to above.

 

That's how it IS, but that doesn't mean you have to follow. Where I work was somewhat like that, but I keep it professional. I do NOT introduce my SO to people I work with (unless it's christmas party or something, and people are worthy), never EVER get drunk/tipsy with people you work with and most importantly: keep emotion out of workplace!

 

And no friends either. That usually turns out as bad as "relationships at work". I don't recommend it and past 20+ years although I THOUGHT I made great friends at work.....truth is, they were never my friends, and time always came when they turned their back or back stabbed me "in the name of progress/career" or some other BS. I was simply bad at realizing that, took time. But time uncovers all the truth.

 

I simply don't do friends at work. I keep my personal life, emotion out of it completely. It's the best way IMO.

 

"Less is more" As in less they know about me, the better.

[j.man]

Thing is that's not casual. It's unprofessional. There's a big difference between the two. While incredibly unfair, the reality is your bosses and co-workers who act unprofessionally toward you won't see themselves doing it, but they'll certainly notice you doing it when you reciprocate and you better believe nothing beneficial to you will follow.

 

Getting into pissing contests with people at work over life accomplishments either in lieu of or to the credit of Landmark (for example) is not something you should ever do, regardless of who instigated it. "I'm really glad Landmark helped you get to where you are right now, but I'm happy with things as they are and don't have any interest in it." Beyond that, you can either smile and nod or excuse yourself to do something you're actually at work to do. (For the record, I am in complete agreement with you regarding your opinion of Landmark.)

 

I can't think of any time an "I'm sorry, but..." has worked out well for me in the workplace.

 

Unfortunately, in this case you did the exact opposite of adapting. You got sucked into the unprofessional environment and acted thusly. It quite obviously hasn't worked out.

 

Again, I assign all due blame to people like the comptroller for insinuating you needed Landmark, especially considering he broke it down on a personal level. There's also zero excuse to even joke about sexism in the office. Neither of these are things you should have to tolerate, but there's always going to be something even if not quite as extreme.

 

I apologize if it sounds like I'm talking down to you. When you had your picture up before, you looked very young, so I've been assuming relative inexperience. You're undoubtedly more familiar with your area of expertise than I am, so if this general input doesn't apply, feel free to disregard it.

[Heather Dawn]

I'm with you! I'm not into the whole "my co-workers need to be my best friends" mindset. I'm too old for that and I like my personal life to stay separate from work. But the ONE time I didn't make it to a team outing (for legitimate reasons), I was pulled into a very serious meeting and told I'm not a team player and don't make an effort. (My first thread covers that.)

 

I think work should be a place where people, ya know, work. And it's nice to get along and have good chemistry while you're there - that's very important for productivity and happiness since we spend so much time with our co-workers. But this company basically expects to own your personal life, too. Unacceptable!

 

(Oh, for the record, that outing where the comptroller got drunk may have involved drunk driving - some of the younger guys here have bragged about it on their parts - but I drove myself for the very purpose of being able to control my situation.)

[Heather Dawn]

Yes, it's completely unprofessional. And I think my conveyance of the conversation lost something in the translation. The actual conversation definitely wasn't one-upping and it wasn't even the slightest bit snarky on my part - it was just me putting to bed all his attempts to find my pain point in order to recruit me.

 

Also, maybe it will change your opinion when I tell you (and I'm actually smiling as I type this because it was nice to hear) - I'm older than you think. I'm 39 (yes, that's a recent pic), and I think that's part of the issue - my bosses have only had people younger than them (and male) till I came along. Suddenly they had a woman who was NOT inexperienced or immature, and who also wasn't a guy. (In fact, the Landmark boss apparently told a mutual friend of ours that he has "no idea how to manage women.") A second woman has since been hired, but she's a designer - so her role within the company is very different, as is her dynamic with the bosses.

[catfeeder]

I'm always on edge waiting for their moods to shift with the breeze. One moment I'm their golden child who they will do anything to keep, the next I'm their punching bag - sometimes all in one day. It's so mentally and emotionally taxing! But I will certainly try to use your mindset starting right now.

 

Challenge why you're so invested in what they think. Since that changes from one moment to the next, it doesn't matter--it will pass. Plus, you don't even intend to stay there. So this should start feeling like the liberating time right before a nice vacation when you start letting go of the stresses.

 

Everything concerning you at this point is pure habit. So question why it 'must' matter to you. You don't need to care about their perceptions at this point, so why work yourself up?

 

Do quality work because it's what you do, answer only what you're asked, and enjoy yourself.

 

Head high.

[Heather Dawn]

Challenge why you're so invested in what they think. Since that changes from one moment to the next, it doesn't matter--it will pass. Plus, you don't even intend to stay there. So this should start feeling like the liberating time right before a nice vacation when you start letting go of the stresses.

 

Everything concerning you at this point is pure habit. So question why it 'must' matter to you. You don't need to care about their perceptions at this point, so why work yourself up?

 

Do quality work because it's what you do, answer only what you're asked, and enjoy yourself.

 

Head high.

 

You sound like my family and friends who are all like, "Eff them - who cares, at this point? You're out of there as soon as possible, anyway, so it doesn't matter."

 

And I get that - and I'm really trying to adopt that mentality. I think I've just been so beaten down by them that I now take everything that happens to heart. But I'm really, really attempting to disengage emotionally and not give a f*ck. I think I need to learn how to meditate...lol.

[overthemoon86]

Hi there, I just wanted to add some advise here, it sounds like you are in a difficult situation. I understand that you are extremely unhappy with your current situation. You need to start aggressively looking for a new position. You need to network with recruiters and other people in your field immediately. You have already made your mind up now you need to do something about it.

 

A few questions - how long have you been there? Also, what is Landmark?

[Heather Dawn]

Hi there, I just wanted to add some advise here, it sounds like you are in a difficult situation. I understand that you are extremely unhappy with your current situation. You need to start aggressively looking for a new position. You need to network with recruiters and other people in your field immediately. You have already made your mind up now you need to do something about it.

 

A few questions - how long have you been there? Also, what is Landmark?

 

I definitely plan to! I just had step two of an interview process with a company I'd LOVE to work for, after they reached out to me and we had a successful phone interview. Just waiting to see whether they want to move me through to the next step - but, regardless, I plan to start the job search very seriously now.

 

I've been here for almost two years. Landmark (aka Landmark Forum) is a cult-like organization that is a spin-off of something called "est" from the '70s. Some people call it "Scientology Lite."

 

[overthemoon86]

That's great news Heather! I am crossing my fingers for you! Keep connecting and applying to other companies, you don't want to put all your eggs in one basic.

 

That's interesting...I have never even heard of Landmark.

[Heather Dawn]

That's great news Heather! I am crossing my fingers for you! Keep connecting and applying to other companies, you don't want to put all your eggs in one basic.

 

That's interesting...I have never even heard of Landmark.

 

Thanks!!

 

Yeah, I hadn't heard of it till I started here, either. But one of my bosses is all about it - he's even an instructor there now. And yet, it certainly hasn't done much for his personality! LOL

[overthemoon86]

So weird! I know you mentioned that you work for a small office, is it part of a big company? My company is a large organization (granted we are not global) but I know a lot about those leadership and management programs out there (six sigma, ect) and I have not heard of that one!

[boltnrun]

I used to work for a very small (3 employees) company that tried to strong-arm me into getting my family members and friends to give money to an illegal pyramid-scheme type "gifting" scam called Prosper Forever.

 

They tried to get me into it as well. They claimed to be a payroll and income tax service, but most of my time was spent following up on suckers (I mean "prospects") for their pyramid scheme. They also had me surfing the internet for hours doing something called "clicks for clicks" where you just clicked through websites so the site's traffic could be artificially increased. And the people who owned those sites would do the same for these peoples' scam site.

 

I quit as soon as I could find a new job. I think all of the people involved in that scheme were arrested for fraud or something.

 

So yeah, you just need to fake it until you can get out of there. And try not to let what they say get to you, because you know they are WRONG!

[catfeeder]

You sound like my family and friends who are all like, "Eff them - who cares, at this point? You're out of there as soon as possible, anyway, so it doesn't matter."

 

And I get that - and I'm really trying to adopt that mentality. I think I've just been so beaten down by them that I now take everything that happens to heart. But I'm really, really attempting to disengage emotionally and not give a f*ck. I think I need to learn how to meditate...lol.

 

It's not so much an eff them attitude that would be helpful--but rather, it's about observing your OWN performance and caring more about what YOU think of it than what anyone else even knows enough to think about it.

 

Sometimes this performance includes being respectful toward the limitations of others. We know when we can deliver well, and we can also tell when others are too limited to know this about us. A certain maturity is required to respect those limitations rather than resent them. Resentment means that we've put too much weight and expectation on someone who cannot deliver.

 

Self esteem is one of the rare psychological terms that means exactly what is says--it's not parent esteem or coworker esteem or boss esteem. When we have enough self esteem to avoid feeling ripped off whenever others fail to recognize our value, then we're on the right track.

 

When we have enough self esteem to feel only the slightest pull toward a need to impress others, including bosses, then our frustration level will be next to zero when we encounter people who are too dense to fully recognize our value.

 

This doesn't matter--we recognize our own value. All we need from a limited boss is to get paid. If we can gain a reasonable recommendation for our own marketing purposes, then great--otherwise, why care so much about provoking--and essentially trying to manipulate--the limitations of a customer who we will kindly leave behind when the time is right?

 

Secure people don't need to manipulate. We do good work. We know this. Whether others know it or not is irrelevant as long as they pay us.

 

We don't need to fear a lack of promotion. We can promote ourselves when we are ready by reaching for the next most challenging job either inside or outside of the org that's paying us. So we are never at the mercy of another's judgment--so there is no need to impress anyone beyond ourselves.

 

When we stop trying to impress anyone else, then nobody owns the power to 'make' us feel 'beaten down' or anything else. They're customers who pay for our services, and we get to decide how much emotional weight we want to assign to them.

 

Head high, and consider liberating yourself from the habit of resenting these people because they don't understand you. They are provincial and limited, but they have the redeeming qualities of being fallible humans that you can enjoy while you know that you are soon on to better things.

 

Head high.

[Heather Dawn]

Well, I just got asked to move through to the 3rd phase (of four) the interview process with the company that reached out to me. I'm so excited and so nervous - the company is huge and international (though I'd be working at their HQ) and incredibly well-known, and is consistently ranked one of the best places to work. One of the founders was quoted in a Forbes or Inc. article saying that getting hired there is statistically harder than getting accepted at Harvard or MIT.

 

So I'm this weird mixture of EXTREMELY hopeful and EXTREMELY cautious and trying not to get my hopes up. But...woo hoo!

[overthemoon86]

YAYY!!!! That is so exciting Heather! Getting the 3rd phase of an interview process is so difficult so that is fantastic, and it's a great place to work that's great! My company just one Fortune 50's best place to work for small and medium sized businesses! I know how important it is to find a good place to work

[overthemoon86]

Heather, and I just read your other thread regarding your company....NEVER EVER EVER EVER and I mean EVER take a counteroffer. No matter what it is. Ever. I am an Executive Recruiter in Accounting and Finance and the candidates I see take a counteroffer to stay with their current firm, often leave within 6 months because they are fired or leave. It is never a permanent solution. And it sounds like this company is not good.

 

But you are doing all the right things. You go girl!

[Heather Dawn]

YAYY!!!! That is so exciting Heather! Getting the 3rd phase of an interview process is so difficult so that is fantastic, and it's a great place to work that's great! My company just one Fortune 50's best place to work for small and medium sized businesses! I know how important it is to find a good place to work

 

Thank you!!!

 

Yes, I told someone I know who is also in marketing and he's like, "Oh my god, I'm so jealous - I'd give anything to get an interview there."

 

Congrats to your company, as well! If I'm lucky enough to get an offer there, I'll be looking very much forward to a workplace that celebrates its employees!