Out with the old, in with the now

[Batya33]

Batya he hasn't asked for a date this weekend and I'm invited already to two events, one on each day. Then Sunday I leave town for work. I would see him if I could, but by the time he asks, if he asks, I'll have committed otherwise.

 

Oh of course then definitely - I didn't understand that part of your post. My comment was more on your assumption that he will take you for granted unless you make him work hard to see you - and because I thought he had already asked you the reaction seemed a bit over the top.

[IAmFCA]

I don't think he will take me for granted actually, not exactly. More that he will/may dismiss my value because it's less quantifiable compared to his, and shows better over time.

 

Said differently, I am not getting from him what I require in order to take his interest more seriously.

[IAmFCA]

BTW thank you Bata for checking up. Also for seconding my stance of not leaving room for him. It occurs to me I could ask him out knowing how full my calendar is, but I ju at don't get enough energy back from him showing me that he wants to make sure I am on his calendar.

[Batya33]

It's always a balance when you try to get to know someone and stay true to yourself too.

[IAmFCA]

It's always a balance when you try to get to know someone and stay true to yourself too.

 

Well said.

 

If this dies a natural death due to a lack of water and sunlight, that is okay. I would like the connection to last because I feel like it will yield something interesting in time - whether romantic or otherwise, I don't know - seems like there is more there to discover. But it could just be a string that we pick up in a few months; it doesn't really matter to me. Neither one of us is investing much, at the moment. I can't tell how much is due to disinterest and how much is due to limited availability. For those reasons, he doesn't get the privilege of me asking him out in advance. If he wanted to plan, he would. I think he wants to hook up, basically, and is just putting in his time to see if it will eventually yield results. For a terribly dynamic guy, that is a pretty boring approach.

[IAmFCA]

Recording for the transparency of it -- had some exchanges with Mr. Wow. It felt okay. I can tell if I had too much interaction, I would be frustrated by his choices. I remain too invested in my vision for him versus what he wants for himself. So, caution is required. But it didn't make me want him.

 

I continue to think he will marry this new woman; if not, it will blow up in some dramatic fashion. Mostly, though, I see ambivalence, loyalty, and obligation in his future. I've seen it twice before in prior exes. Since I have attracted men who have boundary issues, they have gone on to find women who will set their boundaries for them. They never give me up in their heads because I represent freedom and opportunity, but they settle in the comfort of having someone else in charge. But for God's grace thereto goes Mr. Wow, and I say it that way because I know if he pushed through one more layer of self discovery he would take a different path entirely. Nor do I expect him to stop growing, so while I am open to the idea that the relationship will work, I see ways in which it won't. In the case of the two exes with a similar trajectory - one RL works because he lives elsewhere much of the time and operates behind her back for certain things; the other, he is away for nearly 2/4 weekends per month, has cheated on her at least once, also behind her back, and generally fantasizes about cheating some more but restrains himself. In my mind, that means neither RL is working, but in fact they DO work according to their own logic. That is not what Mr. Wow thinks he wants, but it is the sum of his choices.

[Batya33]

That's interesting that you see both these men's choices in new relationships as having to do with really wanting you but choosing someone else for different reasons. Since you haven't been involved with Mr. Wow for awhile now who's to say that he hasn't discovered about himself what he believe he needs to discover and simply has either chosen not to share that information with you or he has in his own way but you haven't noticed (because in part you really haven't been in his life in any significant way for awhile).

 

Most relationships are imperfect, and that would be especially true given your perspective, both as an ex and as someone who believes that you're still at the forefront of their minds/hearts.

[IAmFCA]

That's interesting that you see both these men's choices in new relationships as having to do with really wanting you but choosing someone else for different reasons. Since you haven't been involved with Mr. Wow for awhile now who's to say that he hasn't discovered about himself what he believe he needs to discover and simply has either chosen not to share that information with you or he has in his own way but you haven't noticed (because in part you really haven't been in his life in any significant way for awhile).

 

Most relationships are imperfect, and that would be especially true given your perspective, both as an ex and as someone who believes that you're still at the forefront of their minds/hearts.

 

An excellent point. It isn't that they really want me but choose someone else, nor that I think I am at the forefront of their minds or hearts. Of course neither is true, or they would be with me. It is the expression of some odd ranking such that I am better-than, in some way, and yet not the right fit.

 

Case in point re exH: multiple conversations even after he remarried about how me and my family-of-origin both exemplify superior values, that they are values he cant live up to, how i have done an amazing job raising our children, asking for advice as to his efforts with her children, his call offering an apology for resisting something I wanted that he now sees was a good idea.

 

Case in point re example #2: "you will always be the itch I didn't scratch", i wish i had met you earlier, you are the most centered well-grounded person i have ever met, your home is where I come when I need to feel a sense of home...

 

Mr Wow describes me in a similar way, I am "extraordinary", I have some sort of "positive thing" going that he doesn't want to poison with his anger and negativity, I am like the wife he aspired to have. He said among other things, "She is "white trash" [yes he said this, sorry]; maybe that is what I am destined to have, she is angry like me and it just works." It is obvious he is fulfilled and engaged and is respecting his decision to be faithful to her, all of which are good things. As I alluded to in my post, I believe this pattern developed not because I am so wonderful but rather, because of my own self esteem issues and intimacy avoidance patterns. I chose men whose self esteem reflected my own and whom I would never fully accept, so that (1) I felt more secure in their affection, and (2) if/when I sabotaged it I didn't lose anything earth shattering. This is self-destructive of course, and in any event, caused me to choose men who weren't as good a fit as I thought. They could tell that I didn't accept them even when I couldn't.

 

I just texted Ice that I am not as casual as I seem and that if that was his goal, sayonara. He responded immediately asking me to stick around. I thought I would never hear from him again.

[Batya33]

"It is the expression of some odd ranking such that I am better-than, in some way, and yet not the right fit."

 

Yes and that might not be particular to -personal to -you -it might simply be those individual men's MOs as to how they deal with interacting with exes -it may have far more to do with those individual's egos, interest in seeing your reaction, penchant for pessimism, etc than anything to do with you or how you two interacted. It does show you how comfortable those two are gossiping and hopefully keeps you on your guard about what personal information you choose to share.

 

I'm glad Ice was not put off by your text -is there a reason you didn't talk about this with him by phone?

[IAmFCA]

"It is the expression of some odd ranking such that I am better-than, in some way, and yet not the right fit."

 

Yes and that might not be particular to -personal to -you -it might simply be those individual men's MOs as to how they deal with interacting with exes -it may have far more to do with those individual's egos, interest in seeing your reaction, penchant for pessimism, etc than anything to do with you or how you two interacted. It does show you how comfortable those two are gossiping and hopefully keeps you on your guard about what personal information you choose to share.

 

I'm glad Ice was not put off by your text -is there a reason you didn't talk about this with him by phone?

 

Yes -- I really wasn't interested in talking about it. We don't generally call one another. We connect over text, and arrange to see each other or leave it at short text exchanges. I rarely talk on the phone once I am home.

[IAmFCA]

Ice seems to be entirely not co dependent and may be the first person I ever have dated who isn't.

 

I woke this morning to a slew of texts from Mr. Wow. I don't want to date him but i still treasure the way it felt to be with him, and seeing his texts made my heart smile regardless of their content. That is probably at best harmless and at worst not healthy in several ways, but I am just going with it for now.

 

Last night my goal was to review my on line activity and cull for candidates who warrant follow up. I never got through them, and lost interest upon hearing back from Ice. I will make myself review them tonight, but have little time to meet anyone for another two weeks anyhow.

[Batya33]

Yes -- I really wasn't interested in talking about it. We don't generally call one another. We connect over text, and arrange to see each other or leave it at short text exchanges. I rarely talk on the phone once I am home.

 

Oh of course but I think that the recipient of a text message with that kind of content might end up more focused on "why is she hiding behind a screen" rather than the substance of the message. I understand you rarely talk by phone once you're home but my suggestion would be either to make an exception or share that kind of information the next time you are in person or on the phone so that the recipient sees that you actually want to share and give the other person a chance, right then, to hear your tone of voice and respond -and you're showing the person that you are trying your best to be fair and direct. JMHO.

[Batya33]

Ice seems to be entirely not co dependent and may be the first person I ever have dated who isn't.

 

I woke this morning to a slew of texts from Mr. Wow. I don't want to date him but i still treasure the way it felt to be with him, and seeing his texts made my heart smile regardless of their content. That is probably at best harmless and at worst not healthy in several ways, but I am just going with it for now.

 

Last night my goal was to review my on line activity and cull for candidates who warrant follow up. I never got through them, and lost interest upon hearing back from Ice. I will make myself review them tonight, but have little time to meet anyone for another two weeks anyhow.

 

"Just going with it" of course is a choice among others -sounds like the upsides of staying in touch outweigh the downsides.

[IAmFCA]

Oh of course but I think that the recipient of a text message with that kind of content might end up more focused on "why is she hiding behind a screen" rather than the substance of the message. I understand you rarely talk by phone once you're home but my suggestion would be either to make an exception or share that kind of information the next time you are in person or on the phone so that the recipient sees that you actually want to share and give the other person a chance, right then, to hear your tone of voice and respond -and you're showing the person that you are trying your best to be fair and direct. JMHO.

 

Some would, one has to know one's audience.

[IAmFCA]

"Just going with it" of course is a choice among others -sounds like the upsides of staying in touch outweigh the downsides.

 

In moderation.

 

Mr Wow has a gf, he recognizes he is "damaged right now" his words, my energy is not going into him. My energy is going into me, and as you point out, it was a pleasure thus far, but I know it will teeter over to over involved if I engage deeper. So, moderation is key, with periods of NC to ensure there is no momentum.

[Batya33]

Some would, one has to know one's audience.

 

I believe in general that it sends the wrong or often a bad message to text someone something that is substantive like that especially if it also can be viewed as confrontational.

[IAmFCA]

"It is the expression of some odd ranking such that I am better-than, in some way, and yet not the right fit."

 

Yes and that might not be particular to -personal to -you -it might simply be those individual men's MOs as to how they deal with interacting with exes -it may have far more to do with those individual's egos, interest in seeing your reaction, penchant for pessimism, etc than anything to do with you or how you two interacted. It does show you how comfortable those two are gossiping and hopefully keeps you on your guard about what personal information you choose to share.

 

I'm glad Ice was not put off by your text -is there a reason you didn't talk about this with him by phone?

 

Yes, your explanation is possible. It has happened enough times that either people are telling me what I want to hear, or I am attracting people with a pattern of similar traits. Since boundaries have been my own weakness, it makes sense that I have attracted people with boundary challenges and then have rejected them for the same. Also attracted people who use me as a source of unconditional acceptance, as that is something I am good at. Being nonjudgmental and having porous boundaries among other traits led me to attract people who NEED acceptance to help them accept themselves... leading to the view of me as Ms Wonderful in comparison to themselves. Again, it isn't because I am so wonderful or they are not so wonderful, or even that their next gf isn't so wonderful. I am setting up - or had been setting up - situations wherein I fundamentally didn't accept my mate, and accepted them "anyway". That creates an imbalance and they go off to find their match, all the while appreciating my generosity of spirit. All is this is from my history of avoiding intimacy. Mr Wow pushed me past much of that even as I eventually fell back into the same pattern. I am progressively more balanced around this dynamic, and glad of it.

[Batya33]

Of course it also depends on the motivation behind your generosity/porous boundaries - is it from a perspective of self-acceptance or more from a people-pleasing perspective?

[IAmFCA]

Of course it also depends on the motivation behind your generosity/porous boundaries - is it from a perspective of self-acceptance or more from a people-pleasing perspective?

 

Self-acceptance. And intimacy avoidance -- spotlight on other keeps spotlight off of me.

 

Mom was a model of this for many and a humanist before all else... parents have taught self acceptance since childhood. Though only my mom modeled it, and none of us really got it until years into adulthood.

[IAmFCA]

I believe in general that it sends the wrong or often a bad message to text someone something that is substantive like that especially if it also can be viewed as confrontational.

 

Yes many people do.

 

In this instance, it worked out perfectly.

 

I have been in numerous conversations of import via text. It just depends on your audience.

[Batya33]

Yes many people do.

 

In this instance, it worked out perfectly.

 

I have been in numerous conversations of import via text. It just depends on your audience.

 

Yes in a way but I do think generally if it is something even slightly confrontational/critical it provide a much better and balanced impression to address that directly with the person in person or on the phone so that you remove the impression of hiding behind a computer screen to type something you might not say in person or say in that way. I think it's unhealthy in general if both people (whether in a relationship, friends, or colleagues) have those types of exchanges over text and ultimately it's looking for all sorts of trouble/negative results.

 

I understand that he responded with what you hoped to hear and if you're comfortable with his knowing that you are a person who types this sort of thing rather than has a direct conversation then it's all good. I felt like emailing something to my husband this morning that was in that vein. I stopped myself because I told myself that if I wasn't willing to address it directly with him then I should not be sharing it or burdening him with typed words that could be misunderstood/misinterpreted/not give him a chance to respond to my face or at least on the phone. It's harder that way but then the recipient knows you really give a darn -that you're willing to put yourself out there/be vulnerable with information that might be uncomfortable for them - and it's a good feeling to be respected in that way.

[IAmFCA]

If he and I were living together, I would have addressed a concern in person.

[Batya33]

If he and I were living together, I would have addressed a concern in person.

 

It sounds like indirect communication works fine for you two. I never saw the choice as whether I lived with the person (never really lived with anyone before marriage) - it was whether it could possibly wait till we could speak in person or by phone and unless it had to be addressed right then (and not because I couldn't wait -because of the general context) I refused to take the indirect way. I did that when I was a new boss too often - hid behind e-mail to give feedback - and it just wasn't fair to the recipient. I felt the same about friendships and budding relationships.

[IAmFCA]

It sounds like indirect communication works fine for you two. I never saw the choice as whether I lived with the person (never really lived with anyone before marriage) - it was whether it could possibly wait till we could speak in person or by phone and unless it had to be addressed right then (and not because I couldn't wait -because of the general context) I refused to take the indirect way. I did that when I was a new boss too often - hid behind e-mail to give feedback - and it just wasn't fair to the recipient. I felt the same about friendships and budding relationships.

 

No, Batya, what I wrote was very direct. The fact that it was by text did not make it indirect. There was nothing to discuss. There were no behavior examples to parse, no accusations questions or defenses. No explanations. It was simply, if I am a trifle, I'm out, if I am worth knowing further, I'm in. He chose the latter, whereas I expected him to not respond at all because I thought I was the former.

 

If I were giving feedback or requesting him to understand a behavior and it's impact, face to face would have been more valid than in this case. I don't need anything to change at all, I am fine letting him do what comes natural to him and me the same. Either it works, or it doesn't. So, a binary text is all that was required, unlike in your work example, for instance, where constructive feedback is provided to encourage more or different behaviors.

 

He hadn't been in touch with me. A phone call may have been intrusive, a face to face awkward. A text offered him the option of staying in the dark, in case that was his preference.

 

As it happened, he answered that he wanted to keep at it, and nothing further was needed. When I saw him later, there was no need for discussion, we just continued as per usual.

[Batya33]

I'm glad it worked out. In my view the substance of your text was far from simple" that I am not as casual as I seem and that if that was his goal, sayonara" and to me, bringing that up in text form was at least in part, indirect/hiding behind the screen -at the very least that is the distinct impression I believe it gives whether you intended it or not.

 

I had to bring up that very issue 12 years ago and I kept it in until I could see the person - a number of days -I was quaking in my boots over it because it would have been so much simpler to email it or even talk on the phone. Being right there, making eye contact, telling him who I was "flings are not my style and they are not my style with you" made all the difference -mostly to me because I felt I had proven again to myself that I could communicate my needs and boundaries effectively. He was taken aback at my courage and readily agreed that we were not casual.

 

I see that we agree on other instances where text is chosen over in person or phone. Certainly here can be direct communication over text like when you need to make or confirm a plan or give directions. To me when it is asking a personal question about where you stand in a relationship and stating boundaries as you did that should not be done over text if you want to show the other person that you want to communicate in a meaningful way. I'm glad he didn't take it that way and perhaps he feels more comfortable typing about such things rather than talking. Some do and now it's fair game for him to choose typing over talking for personal issues like this one. Nothing wrong with that since it seems to work well for you as a way to communicate. My sense is that you are not that into him and therefore the mode of communication was not as important.