Women, age and fertility - Lif is Totally Unfair

[tiredofvampires]

Dear tiredofvampires,

 

Thank you for your post. It must've taken a long time to write that and some of it might've even been painful for you to write. I'm sorry for what you had to go through but you seem like a very wise and kind woman. I haven't got all the words right now but I can't thank you enough that you took so much time out to write such a long post to help me, and it has certainly given me a lot of things to think about.

 

I wish you all the very best and I hope that both of us can report back in a few months' or a year's time with some good news.

 

You're very welcome. And thank you for the kind comments -- yes, it's a painful subject. But I'm glad that my perspective has given you food for thought. That's what it's about on ENA.

 

I do hope that whichever way this goes for you, you find the courage to make the best choices for yourself and see that you were not a failure in any way! And to know there are always ways for us to make our own happiness -- the saving grace. People talk about "finding" happiness. But it's not out there to find. It's for us to make possible for ourselves, using the raw materials of what we have to build upon. Which for some of us requires a good amount of creativity.

 

May we be able to reach higher ground, indeed! I wish you the best, too, and yes, let's hope for good reports in the future!

[Ms Darcy]

TI certainly hope you're right...that I can find a way to make this part of my life full, even without biological children (which in some ways, I'm still in denial about, because I'm not yet menopausal.) All those routes you mention, or at least some of them, are definitely under consideration, and a couple of them, I already have done/been doing. I certainly do believe that the most important thing is the action and the feeling of love, not how it came to be and under what circumstances. It's just hard sometimes to align that understanding with the emotional/physical need I have...and I think that's something the OP has to reconcile as well. Though she is lucky to still have some years to work with, biologically.

 

Wonderful sharing TOV. So, is adoption one of the options under consideration for you? I am sure a child out there would love the lunches you would make for him/her.

[tiredofvampires]

Wonderful sharing TOV. So, is adoption one of the options under consideration for you? I am sure a child out there would love the lunches you would make for him/her.

 

Thanks, Ms. Darcy. You know, I have definitely considered adoption and I still do -- but I'm not sure of some of the requirements, and all of the choices that would be open to me, in the screening process (for instance, they look at stability, and I am very low income and I have a chronic health issue, I'm on disability). I do know that the screening process is very rigorous, and I actually don't know how I'd afford it, as I hear it's expensive, too! I'm not sure how important having a partner would be, and if I could even do it without one (certainly, that's one of the reasons I was waiting for the right man). So there are a lot of unknowns and challenges around it.

 

But that's another whole thread.

 

Aw, about the lunches! Yeah, that much I think I can say -- I think I'd make a killer school lunch. (just the right blend of healthy, but not strange enough to be picked on, and still yummy!) Thanks for saying so, hee hee...

[Thorshammer]

Yes, i agree.

 

Some women have been bold with me and approached me, it actually felt good. I wouldnt mind sitting pretty and feeling good while women shot me a look and a smile and all i had to do was return the smile to lead her to approach me. Let her try to read my smile as me either being interested... or polite. Let her try to come up with icebreakers and let her take 100% responsibility on the flow of conversation.

 

On another note, i have never felt guilty for looking at a women. I dont know many men who felt bad for staring, so i dont see how real that video is, if a woman looked at me and did what they did in that video, i would just laugh. I have gotten some frowns and mean faces as i looked at women walking by, i didnt care.

[Batya33]

"et her take 100% responsibility on the flow of conversation."

 

Thorshammer, if you are doing that that's not about gender -that's just about a bad match for you. I approached men all the time -didn't even have to "approach" in an aggressive way because I put in the effort to be in environments where men and women were supposed to meet each other (not bars, not after my early 20s that is) - yes, back then I let the man ask me for the first date but please don't go down the path of defining a gender role as taking 100% responsibility for showing interest, approaching, etc -you're referring to individuals -men and women -who are passive or probably uninterested and other individuals who will put in 100% because most likely they like the thrill of the chase. In that dynamic each person benefits -the one who enjoys being chased despite not being that interested and the the thrill seeker. That was never for me as an adult anyway.

[greywolf]

I hear ya. The timeline sucks. There's a lot of things I still want to do with my life, and ideally I don't want to have children for another 10 years or so, but I don't want to risk having a high risk pregnancy either.

 

But being upset about it only affects you because it wont change anything.

 

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[Catherine_3]

Yes, a man can wait until he's 60, marry a 30 year old, and have children. But how much of his children's lives is he going to be able to enjoy? The woman will likely get to watch her children develop careers, become parents themselves, maybe even grandparents. And she will have the health and the strength to enjoy life with them. Also women live about an extra 5 years on average, which I think is a pretty amazing gender bonus that we get.

[Thorshammer]

I dont usually go on a second date with someone who cant hold a conversation. Its what i hear from female friends, they talk about how the guy couldnt keep her interest, even though they as friends bore me to death. There is more pressure on men to keep the conversation going, many can use the excuse of being shy or insecure- it wont be cute or humble for many women (they can see it as weakness, or what they explain as simply a "turn off"), while men on the other hand can forgive those traits and either think its their fault for lacking social skills, or her being reserved, or her being "traditional".

 

Holding conversation and their chase is important for many women. We all hear women talking about how smart and funny a guy is, its listed all over this site- while a guy who doesnt put the work in - a woman posts more on here asking if hes interested, and then us posters explain that she needs to put the work in too... the guys here, its usually them trying every angle and us telling him to just give up because she doesnt seem interested.

 

In my case women have chased me, i dont really speak for myself when i explained the above. But then again, i have attracted some oddballs.

 

Though, again, with older women it is different. They appreciate more, the use their experience to realize that a first date with a chatty and funny person doesnt mean "safe" and secure future. They are more willing to put the work in, or explore options they never have, because if they are the type to put in effort now, then that means their original gameplan wasnt fullproof and they are now looking at a broader range of people.

[Batya33]

I think you'd have far far more success if you avoided all the stale generalizations about women, older women, etc. Too many examples to the contrary but that is true of most of these generalizations, especially gender-based ones.

[Thorshammer]

I think you'd have far far more success if you avoided all the stale generalizations about women, older women, etc. Too many examples to the contrary but that is true of most of these generalizations, especially gender-based ones.

 

Success in what? I have been more of the rejecter than the rejected.

 

My experience is what built my success. Besides the last two gfs (one having mental issues, and one who was a liar), i've been the one to end things and keep looking in the last 5 years (and even in those cases i ignored my experience). If i let go of my experience, i would cycle back to the young clueless me of 6 or 7 years ago... no thanks. I have a better grasp at dating and reading people than most people, no way would i ignore that and my experience, when i do... you'll find me here posting about it.

[Throwaway999]

Yes, a man can wait until he's 60, marry a 30 year old, and have children. But how much of his children's lives is he going to be able to enjoy? The woman will likely get to watch her children develop careers, become parents themselves, maybe even grandparents. And she will have the health and the strength to enjoy life with them. Also women live about an extra 5 years on average, which I think is a pretty amazing gender bonus that we get.

 

Yeah, maybe in some rare cases, but how often does a 60 year old man have children? Most married couples with kids I see, the men are within a few years of age of their wives. Even if they do marry someone younger it is usually within ten years max. I see women trotting out this idea that "men can be fathers at any age" but that's not really the case in the real world.

[Rosti87]

Yeah, maybe in some rare cases, but how often does a 60 year old man have children? Most married couples with kids I see, the men are within a few years of age of their wives. Even if they do marry someone younger it is usually within ten years max. I see women trotting out this idea that "men can be fathers at any age" but that's not really the case in the real world.

 

I still think it depends on where you live. You might find more age-gap marriages as you describe in more 'tolerant' environs like southern California.

[Batya33]

Success in what? I have been more of the rejecter than the rejected.

 

My experience is what built my success. Besides the last two gfs (one having mental issues, and one who was a liar), i've been the one to end things and keep looking in the last 5 years (and even in those cases i ignored my experience). If i let go of my experience, i would cycle back to the young clueless me of 6 or 7 years ago... no thanks. I have a better grasp at dating and reading people than most people, no way would i ignore that and my experience, when i do... you'll find me here posting about it.

 

Then I'm surprised you'd rely on all these old tired cliche generalizations about women.

[greywolf]

Yeah, maybe in some rare cases, but how often does a 60 year old man have children? Most married couples with kids I see, the men are within a few years of age of their wives. Even if they do marry someone younger it is usually within ten years max. I see women trotting out this idea that "men can be fathers at any age" but that's not really the case in the real world.

 

I've seen this happen several times. Man gets divorced or wife dies and remarries someone much younger (in the same age range as his children from first wife) and of course new wife wants to have children too.

 

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[Mr_LFA]

well my dad is remarried (much younger woman), has a 2 year old girl and he's 60.

[chr8st8na]

Theres so many ways to have kids nowadays for women... I don't know if society or us women put too much pressure on ourselves to have a maternal ticking clock. I dont know if its natural because im almost 30, and i have never felt the need to find that one special man to plant his seed inside me. Maybe because I know I can go to a sperm donor, or adopt... but then again, I do come from a big family and with family functions always filled with little kids running around.

[greywolf]

Theres so many ways to have kids nowadays for women... I don't know if society or us women put too much pressure on ourselves to have a maternal ticking clock. I dont know if its natural because im almost 30, and i have never felt the need to find that one special man to plant his seed inside me. Maybe because I know I can go to a sperm donor, or adopt... but then again, I do come from a big family and with family functions always filled with little kids running around.

 

I know that a lot of women are fine with adopting or getting a sperm donor because they just want children. But I think for many women, it's more about creating a family with someone they love, rather than just having a child.

[Sirenia]

Well, I have 3 stories regarding much older husbands/fathers.

 

1. When I was in university (early 20s) I studied with a girl with a European father and an Asian mother. Her mother was around the same age as mine (50) and her father was in his 70s. A few months ago I wondered what she was up to so I googled her and found her blog and it turns out that her father had died about a year ago. She was understandably heartbroken about it as they were very close. And so, he left behind a heartbroken wife and 3 daughters. I'm sorry but I do think that is selfish to marry and have children with somebody so much younger than you when you can't even (eventually) be around for them.

 

2. A friend of mine who is in her late 40s now, met her now husband when she was in her early 40s. She had never married or had children before and amazingly, managed to conceive quickly and easily (which gives me hope). He (in his mid 60s) is now on his third marriage and had several kids already before. I went over to their house one day on a Saturday morning and it seemed like he could only be with their 2 year old kid a few minutes before he had enough and had to retreat to his 'man cave'. Now don't get me wrong, he doesn't seem like a bad or lazy guy, I believe (as it looked) that he simply didn't have the energy to chase a young child around the house. Even though he loves and wanted the kid, he simply doesn't have the energy to devote to looking after it (plus he's probably a bit over it, having done it 5 or 6 times before already). This may all change when he retires though and she goes back to work...

 

3. As I mentioned earlier, I have travelled a lot and it is VERY COMMON to see an older white Western male with an Asian (or South American) wife who is half his age - ie 50s and 20s or 60s and 30s - with children. While I'm not judging their relationship or their happiness (most of them seem to be very happy, afterall, they both got what they wanted) I still don't think it's fair that 1) men can do this and 2) it'll be like my story #1, the man eventually 'leaving' the wife and kids without a husband and father which I find truly sad.

 

and so I go back to the point that men can stuff up as many times as they like in their life, go to a 'third world' country, pick up a young, beautiful wife, have kids with her and live happily ever after. It's impossible that women can do such a thing.

 

Yes, men have to have confidence and have a good job/salary blah blah blah but those are things you can actively work on and attain. It seems that many (OK not all) men want a young(er) and beautiful wife and even with plastic surgery (which is expensive, dangerous and perhaps unnecessary), you cannot make yourself look like you're in your 20s when you are not. As for men dying younger, I have no idea why that is but my theory is because they don't talk about their problems to others as often as women do and therefore can't manage their stress and anger as well.

[Batya33]

I know that a lot of women are fine with adopting or getting a sperm donor because they just want children. But I think for many women, it's more about creating a family with someone they love, rather than just having a child.

 

For me it was about not being able to deprive a child of a father from the starting gate (as opposed to creating a family and then later having it not work out because of divorce/death, etc). I was ok with adopting, perhaps because then I wouldn't be creating a child without a father - the child would be here and perhaps one parent would be preferable to none.

[lavenderdove]

>>It's impossible that women can do such a thing.

 

Actually no, it's not... i know one woman who is 63 who met and fell in love with a 30 year old man who had a couple of kids from a former relationship, and now she is happily married to him and they are raising the two girls together. She left her own same age husband to do this... And another woman in her mid-40s who left her 60-something husband to take up with her late 20s tennis instructor (and took a lot of his money with her when she left too). So not impossible.

 

I also see one EXTREME unfairness every day... I know many many men who got divorced (many where they were left by wives) who had children, but they pay a large amount of money every month in child support to their exes, but only get to parent their kids every other weekend and one evening a week. And several men who were trapped with an 'accidental on purpose' pregnacy to try to tie the man to the woman AND soak him for 18 years of child support. So they 'get' to have kids that they love and they must pay for, but rarely get to see. This 'unfairness' is generated by a bias in the judicial system that children (especially young or school age kids) belong with their mothers rather than fathers when custody decisions are being made. So there are some things that are 'fairer' for men, and some 'fairer' for women so trying to decide your unfairness 'wins' over someone else's unfairness and hence deserves you feeling sorry for yourself or bitter, is a losing game.

 

So if you look around, you can see all kinds of 'unfairness' in the world, but griping about it isn't to your advantage, it just makes you bitter and desperate and most likely less attractive to the men you are trying to attract because they see/feel your desparation and may feel used and as if you don't really care about them, you are just in a rush to get on the baby train and just care about getting their sperm and their income and and leaping into a marriage because you are desperate for that.

 

I think if you want to attract the right man for you rather than just any man to procreate with, you should try to adjust your attitude to learn to be happy with your life whatever the circumstances... Happy people attract people to them, and bitter/desperate people drive them away. A wise old saying: 'you can attract more bees with sugar than with vinegar...'

[Thorshammer]

My grandfather was having children until he died at 60-something, he remarried after world war 2 to a 20 year old, he was like 50 something. He was actually very attractive even in old age.

[happpybear]

Amen to this!

[quirky]

I think we as women lie to our selves. The majority of us want children and a stable marriage. We can't get that and we say to our selves: but we have good careers! We travel! Let us be honest: does having a few stamps on your passport really replaces your desire for children? I think women need to be honest about what make us happy - as opposed to feminism which has made us ashamed of our desire for children and a traditional family.

 

o_O This is rather presumptuous and very anachronistic perceptions. Women's individuality and freedom of expression and choice was stifled for hundreds of years, if feminism gave me an opportunity to vote, voice my views, work, hold my own, and above all be FREE then feminism was great. Now.. everything comes at a price and life is like a scale, one thing tips the other goes up and there have been some changes in the dynamics of the male/female relationship. I honestly prefer to have my individuality, freedom of expression and a chance to dream and take risks rather than have a life lived for others or a fake, settled life. Nothing depresses me more than that, a life half lived depresses me more than never having children. For some it is stamps on a passport, for some it's art, for some it is being actively involved in politics or society but with freedom you can nurture your passion and with passion comes life, real life. Not a life in chains, be it emotional or intellectual.

 

some of us just didn't have that burning desire for children from a young age, it wasn't about lying, it's called being out there, messed up, too inquisitive, too insecure, too dreamy, too ambitious..something else...not necessarily lying to oneself.

 

Sirenia sweetness, I am in similar age and what I have seen is that men our age do look for home, kids and all that jazz. The tricky part is to get a good match with one of them. Like others I would also suggest you walk away from that partnership no matter how hard it is. Or you can think long and hard if you are happy to compromise your desire for children provided he is a great match for you. I had a lot of that creative partnership with my last ex too and truth be told once we split up I just lost my inspiration and drive. But life happens and you find it all again somehow.

 

You mentioned in one of your posts that you thought of having children since you were 10 but then you said you kinda fell into relationships. How many did you have and was there a pattern you have identified that may have held you back from having kids?

 

To answer your original question, yes it is kinda unfair, I have thought of this too. I personally don't understand neither the older man or the younger woman that would go for this arrangement, I would never desire a much older man it's just gross to me. All I am thinking is 'no fun' when I think of dating someone much older. I also wanted to ask you, you mentioned not having friends because of moving abroad, how is the situation with that at the moment?

[Sirenia]

Hello All,

I'm bringing up an old post (my own) from about 6 months ago. While I agreed with everyone that I should break up with my boyfriend so I can be free to find someone else who does want kids... it was extremely hard for me to do so due to my precarious situation. I was jobless and also in a country without any papers as such. I really needed my bf's emotional support throughout this time.

 

I got very close to getting a really good job but unfortunately I didn't get it and I kind of lost all hope. I admit I wasn't putting in 100% into the job search (but I was still doing other little things on the side to bring in some income, as well as living off my savings).

 

My boyfriend was always 100% loyal to me, I don't believe he would ever cheat or lie to me, he is really great...I know that he loves me... but he didn't want marriage or kids. If I didn't want marriage or kids we could just continue as normal and I really believe that we would be happy as our relationship has always been happy.

 

Well now, I'm starting to get desperate about everything as I still haven't found a job (been out of work 10 months now), and I'm running out of money too, I don't want to go back home (far from where I am now) and I will be turning 38 soon, and I can't bear the thought of starting life over AGAIN, and looking for a job AND partner all over again from the start like a 22 year old.

 

I had another thought to move to another less expensive country so my money could last longer, but the job situation there is even worse (higher unemployment) and again, as a non-native my chances of landing a job are like finding a needle in a haystack.

 

I've even been wavering on my decision but I feel it's already too late as bringing up this heavy topic with my boyfriend has already weakened our once-really-good relationship.

 

I've been asking myself if I could be happy with someone who I'm crazy about and who 'gets' me, and who is the best partner I've ever had (and I've had lots), but not have children (marriage is not a huge deal for me but it would only make my life easier to stay and work in the country)...

 

Do I give up someone who feels like the love of my life, OR do I give up the one chance to have kids?

 

While at the same time I have no job and soon no money?

 

I can't help but feel totally desperate and I don't have much support either. I haven't even told my parents as I know they would just told me to go home but that's the last thing I want to do.

 

This is all compounded by the fact that I've been invited to not 1 but THREE weddings in August and I've already RSVPd to one of them (because it's family).

 

One of them is my bf's good friend and his gf. They've only been together a few months longer than us and they don't even get along as well as we do. One time the 4 of us went out to have dinner and they left early because they ended up fighting and according to what my bf told me, the beginning of their relationship wasn't even that great as the girl didn't even want to be with the guy and yet here they are, engaged with a wedding and baby plans on the way... I'm extremely angry because this guy is over 50, divorced, and his gf is younger than me, mid 30s. It's OK for him, right? He can have kids whenever he feels like it but I couldn't do what he's doing. I can't wait till 50 to have kids.

 

I'm starting to feel jaded and bitter at everyone else's happiness, everybody else moving in with their partner and getting their happy ending.

 

I don't know what to do. I've spend the last entire week just crying and crying, both alone and with my boyfriend together. I feel that he just wants to give up on us and that's hurting me so much.

 

While I'm not suicidal as such, I'm really tired of this and I don't want to think or have to make decisions anymore and I don't know if I can go on anymore... I'm tired of looking for a job because at this age and stage in my life I just want to settle down and be at home. There are so many things I want (house, family, good career) and yet at almost 40 I feel like I'm nowhere near attaining them when some of my friends already had this in their early 20s. I'm constantly jealous and bitter that things just fall into other people's laps and I try and try and try (I'm a high achiever) and I have achieved and done some amazing things in life (such as extensive travel and getting jobs in prestigious companies) but I would give it all way just to have the one thing I have wanted since I was a little girl: a home, a family and lots of love.

 

Do you think moving to a new country would help me at all? Or do you think it's better to stay here and try to find a job here? Because at the moment if I break up with my current bf there are too many memories here, both with him and with my ex. (that I broke up with in Sept 2012) and I'm not really liking it here because after 3 years I've barely got any friends, nearly all of them have moved away.

 

Thanks.

[Lonewing]

He may 'get' you, but let's be honest, he doesn't really GET you...

 

It sounds to me like you're entering a potential midlife crisis here, if it hasn't already hit.

 

I hear this much: you are in a strange land with too many memories and no connections. You do not have a job, much less a career right now. Your choice man is not ready to have children nor wishes to get married - the more important issue being of course having even one kid. In other words, you have nothing to lose right now if you do Move On.

 

I don't think moving to another country would perhaps be the best decision, though, unless you already have a job offer there. Otherwise, you'd be in the same position but a worse place because you won't even have him to be there for you. Furthermore, you may be older and wiser, but this breakup, if it happens, is going to hurt, so add emotional distress to your plate once you move; a new foreign country doesn't exactly sound like the best option.

 

What would your employment prospects be if you simply boxed up and moved back to your home country, to your parents? I know, EVERYTHIGN you don't want to do. But perhaps this is what you need to do, for you, for him, for your future. You can sit down, reorganize your chaos, get it back in order, re-rack your resume [it sounds like you have some valuable experience here and there, no?] and get a job in the culture and climate where you have the best advantages, instead of being in a country where you're in outsider looking in. What more, you'll have them there for emotional support, or at least people who are familiar with you and care about you. Maybe a good reboot wouldn't be a bad idea.

 

Of course, if your home country isn't so good right now, I could understand sticking with this.

 

Best of luck, of course - I can't imagine a harder place to be. And yes, it does suck - men can put this decision off forever and then come back to it when it's convenient; oh well.