He says he is afraid of marriage

[Wingsong]

My BF and I enjoy each others company. We have been "committed" to each other since we met, over two years ago. We have been living together for a year. I was married when I was 20 and divorced right after the children were born then raised them on my own as their natural father was a deadbeat dad. Now both my children are over 18. He was married for 11 years, about the same amount of time I was celibate, and got his divorce finalized a few months before we met. He has one daughter he recently reunited with who was adopted at birth who is over 18.

I had thought I would be able to get married right away if I got involved with a man again, but he has been adamantly opposed to marriage. I bring it up with him a lot and he says maybe in the future but he is afraid of it and not wanting to go into another right away.

At Christmas he would not take me to his family's celebration even though I had the day off. His Mom has a rule about Christmas being family only. So since we are not married I am not sure what Christmas will be like this year. I was very upset that he went without me. Christmas is an important holiday to me. My family is not rigid about who can come to dinner so I don't understand his family rule. He told me that he would take me this year regardless, but I called his Mom the other day about a current conflict and she doesn't even know I am coming, when I asked her about why he hadn't brought me to Christmas, she said, "It has always just been family here."

He had made plans to go to Las Vegas for his nephews birthday. It is a tradition with his nephew's family and it will be my BF, the two grown nephews and their father. Just "the guys." He did not tell me about this trip for months, and recently told me 3 weeks ahead saying it was because I would get upset. Well, I am upset. I have never been to Las Vegas, I have the time off, and I am hurt that I was not invited or approached about the trip when it was in the planning. His Mom said maybe he hadn't told me b/c he thought I would "raise Cain" with him. Which is kind of unfair as I have only been upset about the wedding and the Christmas thing, not other stuff.

We normally get on well and enjoy some of the same activities like hiking and movies, etc. But his family and this wedding thing have been frustrating to me. He says he is committed to me and loves me and that I should trust him to go to Las Vegas b/c he isn't going to do anything except watch sports and gamble. He took me to the counselor b/c I was so upset. We have another appointment today. I just found this forum and it seems like there are a lot of people having problems with conflict and trust and weddings so I was wondering what people think.

How long is reasonable to wait for a marriage commitment? We talked about the Christmas thing and he agreed he would talk to his Mom around September or so, but what if I can't go to Christmas with his family unless we are married? And I am being weird by feeling uncomfortable about him going to Las Vegas with the guys?

[annie24]

I would talk to him about what scares him about marriage and work around those issues. If he is afraid you will take all his money, tell him you would sign a prenup. If he is afraid that you will chop off all your hair and gain 200 lbs, talk to him about that. I would certainly talk to him that you don't feel as though he is committed to you if you are being excluded from family events because of the lack of marriage.

[Ariel85]

Sounds like you're a lot more invested in this than he is.

 

I never think it's advisable to date someone until minimum a year after their divorce is finalized.

 

You're upset for the right reasons, I think. You want to be included and treated like a partner, and he's simply not on the same page.

[tattoobunnie]

If a man does not view you as family, he will not treat you as family...nor will he defend you to his family that you belong there. Even though you may have been together for two years in a committed relationship, it does mean he has intentions of marrying you. And if being married is something you do want...you won't get what you are seeking from this man.

 

I think there is nothing wrong with going to Vegas on his own. I think the fact that he did not tell you initially is what is troubling. Honestly, it sounds like he speaks ill of you to his mother, considering she used that phrase about you. What he tells you, and what he tells others, doesn't match. He doesn't view you as his true partner, and isn't forth-coming.

 

Think of this way...why do you want to marry this guy? Other than being viewed as family. Only you can determine how long you're willing to accept what you're given. Considering he still tells others different things, and plans things without you, and doesn't include you in them, and doesn't treat you like family, nor defends you to his own family...do you really think this guy is the one for you?

[DN]

Generally speaking, men are not really scared of marriage, they are scared of divorce.

[alli]

You are both divorced but your experiences were quite different. He was married for quite a long time. Obviously it didn't work out so well and he doesn't want to jump back into the married boat again. I don't blame him. Even though you aren't his ex, it's almost like jumping out of the frying pan & into the fryer don't you think? Whereas for you, your marriage was rather short and a long, long time has passed since then. It makes sense that you are ready and he is not. He doesn't have to marry you, and you don't have to wait for him. You're going to have to decide if you will be satisfied with the current arrangement, because if not it's time to move on.

 

Regarding the Christmas thing, his mom sounds pretty stubborn & it's too bad he didn't stand up to her sooner. My cousin (my age) has been living with our Grandma since he was a kid & is still there. He got his girlfriend pregnant a long time ago. I think his son is around 5-7 years old now, but the kid has never set foot in the house. Our Grandma refuses to meet him. She didn't want to become attached to the kid & have the mother pull him away, but still pretty drastic don't you think? Also, my older half-sister came with me to my Grandma's house for Christmas one year. My Grandma very specifically uninvited her for any future Christmases. It seems unfair but some people really put their foot down when it comes to holidays & who's invited. Try to understand that when you first started dating, it's not unusual that you weren't let into the circle yet. But as you said, he's planning on having you come this year.

 

Regarding the trip to Vegas. Yeah, he shouldn't have hid it from you. But seriously, it's four male family members. That'd be like if you invited him on a girls night out. It just sort of... defeats the purpose? inhibits male bonding? Anyway, the trip is for the nephew. Try to let it go and do something fun yourself (like take a trip with a friend/family member)

[CatsMeeoow]

Ok - I feel your pain. My MIL is just plain off her rocker too... I had no idea I was being an ungracious daughter in law. I have always let her know that she is welcome in my home and if had some specific thing planned I always had my husband invite his family... they are his family and most times he had to call for another reason as well. Apparently there is a rule - that only she is aware of - that its the daughter in laws duty to specifically invite the MIL to house. WTH??? I can't find anyone and I've searched high and low for this rule to confirm it.

 

So what I know is this. I'm not going to change my MIL. No amount of rationale discussion is going to switch her crazy switch off. So I have to go with it. Just accept it.

 

I think you will have to accept that his mother will not welcome you to Christmas. You have to find a way to accept this or move on. Why waste valuable time and energy trying to rationalize otherwise? In the end I doubt she will invite you and even on the off chance she did... do you think you would feel comfortable and welcome knowing the fight you had to put up to go?

 

I say this about your bf too. Some people want to be married and some don't. Don't feel bad if in your life plan you really want to be married again... find the right guy and get married. But, you have to accept that your bf may be perfectly happy with co-habition adn co-habitation only. I don't think if after two years he hasn't felt different that staying long will change that. You have to accept that.

 

I remember my aunt asking my dad right before he was going to get married again - why in the world would you want to remarry after being divorced twice? My dad's answer - I just like being married. I remember a guy I dated awhile back who had gone through a very painful divorce and really wanted to one day be married again but I also know men who adamantly say they will never marry again. It doesn't make anyone right or wrong.

 

I feel your pain if you really like this guy but it sounds like the two of you just may not be on the same page and as woman who raised kids alone I know you know how to take care of yourself. Have you thought about the idea that perhaps your future might need to be with someone who shares your desire for marriage? who honors your feelings about the holidays to include everyone - marriage or not? Honestly, these would be deal breakers for me but if they are not deal breakers for you then you will need to find a way of acceptance for what you bf is or isn't giving you.

 

HUGS

[Ariel85]

Apparently there is a rule - that only she is aware of - that its the daughter in laws duty to specifically invite the MIL to house. WTH??? I can't find anyone and I've searched high and low for this rule to confirm it.

 

Women of her generation are traditional, and believe that the woman(wife) is responsible for making the social arrangements, even if it's your in-laws. My family (immediate and extended) is the same as her - it's just a respect and given thing to those of this age and background. For you to have your H invite her, makes her feel that *you* personally don't want her there.

[DN]

If my family had refused to invite a live-in girlfriend to family functions such as Christmas I would accept their right to do so and spend Christmas with my girlfriend.

[babii doll]

in my experience the more you talk to a man about marriage the more they back into a corner. they have to believe its not your ultimate goal and you care more about him as a person and not just the idea of getting hitched, it should be the mans idea to marry on his own. alot of women make the mistake of talking marriage to a guy continually not realizing theyre sabotaging their chances. right now he has the upper hand and he knows it, he knows how much you want marriage. i made the same mistake with DH until a friend gave me a book that literally change my life. it shows you what youre doing wrong in this kindof dilemma. look up 'sherry argov' on amazon. her 2nd book 'why men marry -' should be the female bible.

[CatsMeeoow]

Women of her generation are traditional, and believe that the woman(wife) is responsible for making the social arrangements, even if it's your in-laws. My family (immediate and extended) is the same as her - it's just a respect and given thing to those of this age and background. For you to have your H invite her, makes her feel that *you* personally don't want her there.

 

I've post here before asking about the "rule"... I've spoken to my own mother who is her age... I've spoken to women friends who are the age of my MIL... No one I have ever come accross has ever confirmed this "rule".

 

Now the interesting thing is this - I asked my husband who was married before me if his ex-wife ever invited his parents over. His response was NO. They just showed up... all the time...his mother was there more than he was. His mother cleaned his house because his unemployed wife was to lazy to.

 

Please keep in mind I invited my MIL for coffee one morning and drove an hour just to have it in her city. At the time I gave her a blanket invite and this has been after she has been in my home for major holidays, overnights when her grandkids were here that she was of course welcome anytime to our home. My MIL has never invited me for coffee or any social event. She even went so far as to tell me that my husband has no rights to his own kids because he divorced their mother. WTH? My husband is a great dad - calls his kids every night he doesn't have them and is always involved with them when they are here. The law states he has joint legal custody. She won't call him to see her grand kids - she only calls his ex-wife. (Who btw enjoys the fact that his own mother chooses her over him.) Nope - I don't think there really is a rule I think is just plain nuts.

 

I had to sit with his father on a Sunday afternoon in the hospital because she was too busy to be there. When my husband and I were visiting his father, his father's best friend and wife came in to visit as well. The best friend and best friends wife of my FIL constantly griped and complained and made fun of my MIL. These are people who have known her far longer than I have. I kept my mouth shut. She clearly doesn't like me but its clear that lots of people don't like her. It was an awkward situation to say the least that day.

 

I tried to my best in the beginning to go out of my way and swallow what I felt was common sense and be the best DIL I could be - when it became painfully clear that I'm just not going to measure up to a woman who is too lazy to clean her own house, who is unmotivated to get a job and when she does get one she is fired, who spends a lot time harassing myself and my husband at all hours of the night with texts and showing up with threats at our front door... her only saving grace is that she is the mother of her grandchildren and apparently that is enough for my MIL to say its no big deal dragging us out of bed late at night with the police at our door demanding the kids who were safely in bed - yes the police told her to go home and leave us be. She agreed to meet my husband to exchange kids to only show up scream at the kids and then take off with them an hour back to their house... which of course my husband had to go an hour and call the police and only when an officer said he'd call a judge and serve her with warrant for arrest did she let the kids go (this was the second time my husband had to go through this.) My MIL would rather support that than my husband.

 

Sorry to the OP - don't want to hijack the thread... BUT my point is you have to accept this woman... just as I have to accept my MIL is not mentally competent and his ex-wife is whacko.

[DN]

Moderator Note: please keep on topic with the OP's issue.

[Wingsong]

Generally speaking, men are not really scared of marriage, they are scared of divorce.

Yes, this is what he says. But it is more of a general anxiety from what I can gather about marriage. He says it doesn't have anything to do with me, though I do take it somewhat personally. It is important to me that he make the decision without coercion or manipulations.

[Wingsong]

Regarding the trip to Vegas. Yeah, he shouldn't have hid it from you. But seriously, it's four male family members. That'd be like if you invited him on a girls night out. It just sort of... defeats the purpose? inhibits male bonding? Anyway, the trip is for the nephew. Try to let it go and do something fun yourself (like take a trip with a friend/family member)

 

I agree, I bought a ticket to see my Dad in Arizona who I haven't seen for 3 years. BF will be gone from Wed to Sat and I will be gone from Sat to Tues so we won't see each other that week at all. BF is always very free to let me do things with my family. So it is something I have to struggle with but he is not possessive at all.

[Wingsong]

I feel your pain if you really like this guy but it sounds like the two of you just may not be on the same page and as woman who raised kids alone I know you know how to take care of yourself. Have you thought about the idea that perhaps your future might need to be with someone who shares your desire for marriage? who honors your feelings about the holidays to include everyone - marriage or not? Honestly, these would be deal breakers for me but if they are not deal breakers for you then you will need to find a way of acceptance for what you bf is or isn't giving you.

 

HUGS

 

Yes, I agree that here is the problem to decide if these are deal breakers. I mean, just me getting all upset and fighting with him doesn't seem to get me anywhere. He says he doesn't want to break up or date other people. I have been off and on apartment hunting since January because of this and the grown children also being in and out of the house, partying and not having jobs. So we have stress to deal with. His daughter moved in, my son moved back home to me from his dad's and my daughter moved out, all since Christmas which was a big troubling weekend btw. I told him I would wait until September to decide on the living arrangements. Honestly, he could drag this out for decades though he denies he will.

[babii doll]

Yes, this is what he says. But it is more of a general anxiety from what I can gather about marriage. He says it doesn't have anything to do with me, though I do take it somewhat personally. It is important to me that he make the decision without coercion or manipulations.

 

just an fyi the book doesnt coerce or manipulate. it shows you what youve been doing wrong, i.e pushing marriage talk which gives you opposite results, him not wanting to marry.

[Wingsong]

Yes, thanks, I will order it I do want to be more silent about the issue I would much rather be able to be in relationship without stewing and brewing over these big issues that are not going away at the moment.

[Wingsong]

If my family had refused to invite a live-in girlfriend to family functions such as Christmas I would accept their right to do so and spend Christmas with my girlfriend.

 

I guess that is one option, right? I am such a problem solver and brainstormer and try, try again girl. He is very much, lets just wait and see how things work out, a procrastinator. We could go on like this indefinately. We talked over a bunch of options including this one. I mostly came up with the options, including maybe get a hotel and he could go to his family thing and then come stay with me and the next day go to my Mom's together. Then there is his daughter who is new to their dynamic and she might also want to go to his parents so is she allowed and welcome? We are procrastinating him talking to his mom until September is what we came up with from our discussion.

[tresqua]

One marriage per lifetime is enough. Once you've been down that road and you're not looking to have more kids, the whole concept is pointless. He's not afraid, he's smart. Why enter an agreement that has close to a 70% chance of failure, what is there to be gained?

[CatsMeeoow]

Yes, I agree that here is the problem to decide if these are deal breakers. I mean, just me getting all upset and fighting with him doesn't seem to get me anywhere. He says he doesn't want to break up or date other people. I have been off and on apartment hunting since January because of this and the grown children also being in and out of the house, partying and not having jobs. So we have stress to deal with. His daughter moved in, my son moved back home to me from his dad's and my daughter moved out, all since Christmas which was a big troubling weekend btw. I told him I would wait until September to decide on the living arrangements. Honestly, he could drag this out for decades though he denies he will.

 

Yeah... I'm sorry.

 

Though my children aren't grown - my son - 9, my husband's kids - 9 and 11, I have to say the biggest obstacles in our marriage have to do with prior baggage. My son is autistic - though very highly functional and in school with an IEP but receiving no extra help beyond making sure he has a teacher with a strong routine. Still its an adjustment to my husband as what comes accross to him as argumentative from my son is just my son's way of processing information which is different from his routine. My husband is just 3yr out of his prior marriage and his kids are still really adjusting and it doesn't help that his ex-wife is simply unfit. So I get the stress of "other" families in later in life relationships.

 

I also know that no relationship is perfect (I could do without my husband's ex-wife filing a restraining order against my then 8yr old child - which was thrown out cause she's not right in the head) but my husband had enough other wonderful things that I am willing to accept and put up with some of this non-sense.

 

You have to know what your deal breakers are - mine was I wouldn't marry a smoker. My husband was a smoker though he had quit a couple of other times knows this is where I draw the line and he doesn't smoke.

 

If marriage and being a part of his family gatherings are that important to you (and I can see why this is the case) and if they are deal breakers and its already been a constant struggle with no light at the end of the tunnel I don't see you being happy in this relationship no matter how "good" he is to in other things. That's the craziness of about dealbreakers... I won't tolerate my husband sneaking a smoke but I'll beside him and put up with the crap from his ex-wife... go figure.

 

I think if you've looked at apartments you know deep down you are not truly happy... you want to be married and I can't fault you with that. I was a single mom for 9yr... I did it all because I had to... but I love the fact I have a husband now and its great to think that my husband mows the lawn now... not me!

 

Good Luck!

[SayWhen]

I think it's pretty clear that he does not want to remarry...at least not right now. The more you bring it up, the more of a thorn in the side this concept will be to him. Eventually he may get sick of you bringing it up and he will become resentful and annoyed...even if he agreed to it it'd be a begrudging agreement...to you really want to start a marriage on that basis? When I met my husband he said he would absolutely never get married...he was more vehemently opposed to it than anyone I had ever met. I left him alone about it and just enjoyed being in the relationship...then about five months after we became "official" HE brought up marriage! We got married on April 21st...about a year after we first began our relationship. I asked him what changed his mind he said "I'd only get married under one circumstance...to you.". Our marriage is good, not perfect, but we love each other and I know we both WANT to be married to one another which is very important. If this man does not want to marry you my advice would be to either let him be and enjoy the relationship, or move on. The problem with his mother does sound like something you need to work on...but I don't see the bad in him going to Vegas. The reason he didn't invite you is because it's guys only, and it's a bad sign he didn't want to tell you due to the potential of angering you. You need to let him have some independence or he will feel even more smothered...trust me. I hope it all works out for you in the end!

[Wingsong]

Hi Cat, It sounds like you have a lot of stress from the MIL and the ex! Part of the problem with deciding if it is a deal breaker is that he isn't even saying never, he is just saying not now. That we are both Christians was important to me and that was part of what I was hoping for in a partner. So I kind of want the marriage as part of my values and beliefs along with other culturally appropriate goals and personal desires. I really wasn't married long the first time and my husband cheated a lot and was gone a lot. I spent my six months of my second pregnancy living with my Granny's friend while he messed around. I would really like a nice healthy relationship with a real husband. Do you think it is reasonable for me to wait a bit longer? People seem to see that the Vegas trip is ok. The Christmas thing is crazy a bit on his Mom's part and totally weird. The marriage thing is understandable, people say, given that I was alone while he was married the whole time I was alone. So I might be ready to be married while he is still dealing with his baggage. My son actually says I should wait 10 years and not bring it up at all, that seems really excessive. I am glad I was able to get some feedback from people and some self help books were suggested. Plus I can work on being less possessive.

[babii doll]

10 years wait is ridiculous, what SayWhen described is exactly how youre suppose to go about the situation, dont bring marriage up let him bring it up. a man has to feel in control of his decisions, marriage being one of them. i hope u do read the book, i probably wouldnt be married right now had i not seen the damage i was doing by pressuring DH into a commitment at the time. just enjoy the relationship for the time being. good luck.

[CatsMeeoow]

From what I understand you are now less stressed about the Vegas trip... you are beginning to realize that his mother is a bit unreasonable but that you may not ever be able to change her perception - is this guy willing to skip Christmas at his mother's house to be with you or are you planning on giving him 10yr of you sitting home alone while he attends his family's celebration?

 

I met my husband when I just turned 40. I was at a point where I was ready to settle down but I wasn't going to settle. I had lots of dates and met lots of guys. I wasn't that into my husband on our first date... lol! The more we dated and I saw we had some of the same long term goals I sort of stuck to him! Now, we didn't get married immediately but we both decided we wanted to be married before he moved in - it was just a matter of timing, where, who, etc. We married a year after living together. I have to say that wanting to settle down I would not have lived with him for 2yr unless he really wanted to marry and that was his goal.

 

I see your frustration and I would never wait on a guy for 10yr... or even 5yr or at my age over 2yr. Don't sell yourself short. Make a list of 10 things you really need in a relationship - now don't think about this guy but truly 10 things you think would make you happy enough to enjoy a long lasting relationship. Next put check marks by the things your current relationship is providing and circle the ones that are not as yet being met. Now, is it realistic to think that in the next 12months those things might change? Have a true heart to heart with your guy. Don't be accusatory but with a smile simply say I have needs which aren't being met and I find them necessary to carry on a long term loving relationship.

 

There are men out there that are looking to be married. It really sounds like being married is very important to you - don't let anyone make you feel bad or silly for that. Not everyone is cut out to be in a long term loving commitment where no vows are taken for a state of matrimony. I would hate to think that you might end up spending 2 more years with this guy just to find out he hasn't changed his mind.

 

Hugs!!! You are in a very difficult spot...

[metrogirl]

Perhaps you two can plan a Vegas trip together once he gets back from the 'boys' trip. My boyfriend used to go to Vegas all the time to gamble on the sports and drink himself silly, sometimes I would go but not always. Now he wants me to go all the time and doesn't go with the boys anymore. I actually enjoyed his being away sometimes. LOL