At Home Births

[Batya33]

LS obviously you're entitled to your view. I think much of what you hear about is the simple flaw of assuming correlation is causation -that women who visualize painless labor have it because of the visualization and vice versa.

It is an interesting shift in mindset for you because I remember your threads where you discussed why you had the post-pregnancy plans you did and how it was because, in part, your pregnancy was not planned. It sounds like now you believe you chose to be pregnant with twins at this time in your life. That particular mindset might actually help you more in how you handle things after the birth as opposed to earlier when you believed that it was unplanned (whether in reality it was unplanned or not I'm not sure - I'm just applying your philosophy to your situation and by definition you would have to say it was planned, whether consciously or otherwise).

[Saffron_]

 

And yes I do believe people choose to get cancer and other terminal diseases. A lot of the time it isn't even conscious choosing. (actually most of the time I would say it isn't conscious choosing). And I could go into why this is, but I'm sure at this point you disagree with me and that's fine.

 

I don't think my opinion will change. If I do have a painful labor. It will be because that is what I started to think about, and therefore that is what I created.

 

I have to agree with OptimisticGirl and say that that's way way wayyyyyyyy out there for me. So much so that it left me speechless.....but it's off topic so moving on..

 

I'll be very interested when the time comes to hear how your labour went. I've never heard of anyone (in this day and age) having a home birth with twins before but I guess some people take the chance.

[Saffron_]

It is an interesting shift in mindset for you because I remember your threads where you discussed why you had the post-pregnancy plans you did and how it was because, in part, your pregnancy was not planned. It sounds like now you believe you chose to be pregnant with twins at this time in your life. That particular mindset might actually help you more in how you handle things after the birth as opposed to earlier when you believed that it was unplanned (whether in reality it was unplanned or not I'm not sure - I'm just applying your philosophy to your situation and by definition you would have to say it was planned, whether consciously or otherwise).

 

Batya, you said what I was just thinking!

[Fudgie]

I do believe in the power of positive thinking but I don't believe in it to that extent. If that were so, I would just smile all the time and could visualise EVERYTHING positive and my life would be a piece of cake. But that doesn't happen, does it? Even the most positive, optimistic people still have bad things happen to him. It's life. You can't control everything with your mind. If you could, I'm sure we would have already harnessed that ability by now and then no one would get cancer, have painful labour, or be fat anymore.

[lostnscared]

Again as I said before there was a difference in mindsets that I've observed between those I know that wanted a painlesss labor, and had one, versus those who wanted and did not. You don't have to agree with me, or my philosophy. And it does look like you did prepare, but the sort of preparation that you said that you did is not the preparation I am talking about doing or what the woman I know did to have the birth they wanted.

 

I'm a bit baffled about why people are stuck on my philosophy it really has little to do with this thread. I tried to take it back to the topic at hand. The only reason I brought it up, was because you had said labor was out of my control. It seems like since I brought it up, people are fixating on that instead of the main premise of this thread.

 

I think everyone is entitled to their beliefs and values about life. Whether people agree with my belief are not is not really a concern of mine. After all it is my life. I wouldn't want anyone worrying about my labor, or me. Especially being that I've already assured you and others about what it will be like. I find it more concerning that people are trying to tell me that there is a chance it may be "this" way or that way, just because of their experiences. Every pregnancy, and every labor is unique. And I don't believe that is by "chance".

 

I'll leave it at that.

[lostnscared]

The only issue I disagree with your philosphy lostnscared is that we let things happen to us. Or however you worded it, im on my phone. Take me for instance. I did not want my wedding postponed or to not see my fiance for a year. I was not thinking negatively or whatever, I was about to be married.

 

I didn't say we "let" things happen(as that means we have no control). I said that everything that has happened in our lives, has occurred due to our beliefs, thoughts, and in many cases these situations were what we wanted, or what we thought about(negative or positive, or conscious or subconscious, doubtful or positive). I could get deeper about it, and say why things happen when we say we aren't thinking negatively about them, or when we say we did not want them to happen--but I'm not going to because it's irrelevant to this thread.

[OptomisticGirl]

I honestly asked because I'm genuinely curious. I obviously don't agree with the line of thinking - I"m one for positive thinking of course - but I took it back to that topic becuase.. well, it's my thread. That and I honestly didn't ask the question as a 'your way is wrong' kind of way. Even if I don't agree with it I'm still curious.

[OptomisticGirl]

I didn't say we "let" things happen(as that means we have no control). I said that everything that has happened in our lives, has occurred due to our beliefs, thoughts, and in many cases these situations were what we wanted, or what we thought about(negative or positive, or conscious or subconscious, doubtful or positive). I could get deeper about it, and say why things happen when we say we aren't thinking negatively about them, or when we say we did not want them to happen--but I'm not going to because it's irrelevant to this thread.

 

Okay but this is what is hanging me up about this. Yes, the power of positive htought is grand - I didn't call myself optimistic girl for nothing - but say something bad happens. Whatever it is, misscarriage, accident, cancer, whatever... if one thinks postively should theses things not happen?

[lostnscared]

Your exactly right. I wanted this pregnancy. If you remember months prior to me getting pregnant that was all I fixated on. Being a mom. So when I got pregnant I did get what I wanted. I also focused on have girls and a month ago I started thinking about twins--because my mom had been pregnant with twins earlier this year but miscarried them. I also thought about having a house when I got married, and not struggling. And I'll be moving into a very nice house, having a nanny etc, come this summer. So yes everything that I wanted(even when I denied I wanted it) happened. The pregnancy was very much planned. Though I did not have unprotected sex with him when I conceived, I did fixate on pregnancy for months before I got pregnant and I did think about it all the time. Once I got pregnant, I was in so much denial about what I had originially wanted, that I went into a depression and a shock.

 

But you are very right in your conclusion!

And that is what I meant, when I said, that when I read the book I read, I realized that everything that happened in my life up until now was what I wanted, planned, whether it was good things or bad things--they were direct manifestations of my thoughts.

[lostnscared]

Okay but this is what is hanging me up about this. Yes, the power of positive htought is grand - I didn't call myself optimistic girl for nothing - but say something bad happens. Whatever it is, misscarriage, accident, cancer, whatever... if one thinks postively should theses things not happen?

 

It's not about thinking positive or negative. I'll explain later. I have to go walk my dog. I'll be back lol.

[lostnscared]

Again everyone, it is not just positive thinking. LOL. It's thoughts in general.

 

Be back later.

[rocio]

This is one of those things that can never be proven or disproven. It's no different from people who believe that God will answer their prayers. It's a faith of sorts, and the thing with faith is that you can believe it with all your being but you can never prove it.

 

I do agree that thoughts create reality to some extent, although I think there is also an element of randomness to it. But I'm not sure in that one. I think we are all one common, connected consciousness. So why wouldn't the thoughts of one person be able to influence external realities?

 

It's more of a spiritual philosophy than anything and I see no point in trying to talk people out of their convictions.

 

Just because you see the world a particular way, doesn't necessarily mean you're right.

[OptomisticGirl]

This is one of those things that can never be proven or disproven. It's no different from people who believe that God will answer their prayers. It's a faith of sorts, and the thing with faith is that you can believe it with all your being but you can never prove it.

 

I do agree that thoughts create reality to some extent, although I think there is also an element of randomness to it. But I'm not sure in that one. I think we are all one common, connected consciousness. So why wouldn't the thoughts of one person be able to influence external realities?

 

It's more of a spiritual philosophy than anything and I see no point in trying to talk people out of their convictions.

 

Just because you see the world a particular way, doesn't necessarily mean you're right.

 

Whose trying to talk her out of it? I may not agree with her philosphy to the extinct she does and find it hard to view the world as such but it doesn't mean one can't ask questions about it. I believe everything happens for a reason, even the big bad stuff. There are plenty of people who are against that line of thinking but for me, it's worked in over coming a lot in my life. If LS has a painless birth more power to her - I Just wanted clarification on it for my own curiosity.

[lostnscared]

This is one of those things that can never be proven or disproven. It's no different from people who believe that God will answer their prayers. It's a faith of sorts, and the thing with faith is that you can believe it with all your being but you can never prove it.

 

I do agree that thoughts create reality to some extent, although I think there is also an element of randomness to it. But I'm not sure in that one. I think we are all one common, connected consciousness. So why wouldn't the thoughts of one person be able to influence external realities?

 

It's more of a spiritual philosophy than anything and I see no point in trying to talk people out of their convictions.

 

Just because you see the world a particular way, doesn't necessarily mean you're right.

 

You pretty much voiced what is on my mind. I think everyone sees the world in a variety of ways and no one is right or wrong. I do feel as though since I've said what I believe that everyone is fixating on that and telling me I'm wrong or that something is wrong with me. I think everyone should feel the way they feel. Just like I believe every woman should have the labor and pregnancy that they desire. It seems like every time I tell someone the sort of labor I want, and the labor I believe I'll have, I get bombarded with horror stories or people telling me it's out of my control, etc. So I felt the need to explain my feelings on it.

 

I've already had one friend argue with me today and tell me that my thinking is wrong and "dangerous", instead of just accepting that we have different beliefs. I can't answer for everyone else's life, circumstances, etc. I can only speak of my own--and in my life, so far everything that has happened has been related to my thoughts.

[lostnscared]

LS obviously you're entitled to your view. I think much of what you hear about is the simple flaw of assuming correlation is causation -that women who visualize painless labor have it because of the visualization and vice versa.

.

 

Actually I've personally spoken to these women, and what they did prior to birth was all the same--a common link I should say. Now this isn't for all women who had painless labors, because I don't know all women. But the support group I'm in, this is what all the women did and these are the stories that I choose to focus. Causation or correlation aside, it wasn't just visualization that they did to prepare for a painless labor. I don't know, it seems as though people are thinking that I am saying that if you just think positive life will be flowers and roses. And I hope I haven't implied that. As I said, I don't doubt that some women didn't get the labor they wanted, or that they didn't prepare for a painless labor, or that there were things that happen that they did not plan for. I'm only speaking of the women that I know and of myself and what they did and what I plan to do. For all the women who did not have what they wanted--I really can only make assumptions or guesses, because I don't know what was in their thoughts. But from the friends I have that I do know personally who wanted a painless labor and did not have one, I did see a clear difference in their mindsets versus the women I know that had a painless labor... If that makes any sense.

[lostnscared]

I do believe in the power of positive thinking but I don't believe in it to that extent. If that were so, I would just smile all the time and could visualise EVERYTHING positive and my life would be a piece of cake. But that doesn't happen, does it? Even the most positive, optimistic people still have bad things happen to him. It's life. You can't control everything with your mind. If you could, I'm sure we would have already harnessed that ability by now and then no one would get cancer, have painful labour, or be fat anymore.

 

Because it isn't just positive thinking... Did I say somewhere that, positive thinking is my philosophy. If I did, I apologize. I also never said it was just positive visualization either. And yes most people have bad things happen to them. Whether they are positive or negative. I only stated that I believe that everything that happened to me has been what I wanted to happen, whether it was subconscious or conscious thinking, or positive and negative thinking. That has been my experience thus far. Nothing in my life that has happened, I can honestly say that prior to it happening I didn't have a thought about it--whether it was me saying "I don't want that to happen to me" or me saying "I can't believe that happened to that person" or me saying "I want that to happen".

And actually there ARE people who have harnessed the ability to have the life they want and desire and who can honestly say that they have everything they want.

[lostnscared]

Okay but this is what is hanging me up about this. Yes, the power of positive htought is grand - I didn't call myself optimistic girl for nothing - but say something bad happens. Whatever it is, misscarriage, accident, cancer, whatever... if one thinks postively should theses things not happen?

 

It isn't about thinking positively. But it's interesting the amount of negative thoughts that go through our mind everyday. I've been working on being more aware of what it is that I'm thinking and I notice that I can have like 20,000 negative thoughts going through my head and any given hour, and if I'm fixating on those thoughts, or doubts, or contradicting myself it's easier for an outcome to turn unfavorable quickly. As for miscarriage, accidents, etc--it's hard to say what the deeper reason was for those things happening in a way that would not sound completely cuckoo to people or offensive, or just other-wordly.

[lostnscared]

Something to think about that is completely off topic is that what is painful and painless will vary from person to person. Everyone's perception of pain is different. For instance many friends of mine have stated that they hate needles and shots, that they hurt, and that they had horrible experiences when they had root canals, etc. Whereas for me, shots feel good. The root canal just felt like intense pressure but did not hurt until days later when my mouth got an infection, and when my tooth was dying for months I had no idea it was, because to me it just felt like an annoying tooth lol. One of my friends said that her labor was not painful, and it wasn't any visualization she did or anything like that, she just honestly said it was no different for her then period cramps. Then again she also said getting a tattoo was not painful for her, nor was a c-section. Meanwhile I know people who nearly passed out from labor pains. So I think when people hear the word painless they assume I mean that labor will feel like gliding down a cloud, and that isn't what I perceive when I think about a painless labor. A painless labor to me is intense strong pressure taking over my body--but in a welcoming way, manageable and completely amazing to witness, blissful, empowering, relaxing and as if my body is simply doing all the work and I'm letting it. And that is what I've meant. But maybe to some people painless means it feels like nothing or feels orgasmic? I was reading this one women's story(not a woman I know personally) who said that when she describes her labor, it probably wouldn't be painful to most people, but for her it was, because for her a lot of pressure is painful. Or another women who said that labor was just uncomfortable not painful. My aunt said it just felt like she needed to take a big poop and she couldn't describe as painful but just as uncomfortable feeling.

Hope that makes sense.

[OptomisticGirl]

I Just want a birth like my mom had with me - she was admitted at 9:00 am and seven minutes labor I Was born. The doctor actually had to jump up onto her bed as they were wheeling her off the elevator because she said I was coming and nothing was stopping me, lol

[Batya33]

Causation and correlation isn't "aside" -it's the only relevant point -because if you can't show a cause and effect link between the visualization and the result then all you have is coincidence from a relatively small number of people many of whom simply claimed on a message board what they did before labor. (or if you mean an in person support group it's still a small sample and of course a select group who chose to try this method).

 

I think there is a real place for magical thinking -a placebo effect - believing that all these women had the labor they wanted because of visualization might keep you calmer and more centered whether or not it's true. Nothing wrong with that.

I've spent the last year or so doing cognitive exercises on my own - positive thinking being a big part of it - to help with my post-birth insomnia issues -helped a great deal! Good for you on the positive thinking.

[Seraphim]

I agree everyone has different concepts of what is painful. What is painful too depends on what goes on in the experience as well. People can handle experiences much better and experience less pain if the people around them are co operative. I had walked around on a broken foot (the first time I broke it) and it was not so painful that I had to do much about it. Labour was painful BUT it would have been less so had my husband been more co operative and I probably would have been able to stand it much better and not get the epidural and control the pain myself better. He however was entirely hopeless and at points outright so unco-operative it was all just impossible.

[Batya33]

I'm glad you shifted your mindset on that because I was concerned about your posts where your plans post-pregnancy were based in large part on your belief that this was unplanned and that you didn't choose to have children at this time. That sounded a bit too extreme the other way given your strong focus on wanting children and your previous pregnancy scares based on not using birth control properly. That's amazing insight and self-awareness on your part and I'm sure it will only enhance how you parent your children.

 

I don't think your thinking is wrong or dangerous because it doesn't sound like you're trying to convince other women of your philosophy - if you were I would have a different view. It can only be positive to go into labor and delivery with a centered and positive perspective whether or not it's based on reality or not.

[rocio]

I think, as Hope said, this kind of thinking would only become dangerous if a woman would blame herself for things not going smoothly. As women, we already carry the weight of the world on our shoulders and it seems like an impossible burden to assume responsibility for everything that happens in life. But LS seems like someone with a wonderfully positive attitude and she is clearly adaptable to her circumstances. I have a feeling she'll be fine.

[Batya33]

I think, as Hope said, this kind of thinking would only become dangerous if a woman would blame herself for things not going smoothly. As women, we already carry the weight of the world on our shoulders and it seems like an impossible burden to assume responsibility for everything that happens in life. But LS seems like someone with a wonderfully positive attitude and she is clearly adaptable to her circumstances. I have a feeling she'll be fine.

 

Well yes but my concern is that this significant shift in mindset is fairly recent (meaning, what she wrote in the recent past did not reflect adaptability much of the time -not a criticism, just an observation) plus heavily influenced by, it sounds, like one or maybe two books she's read. I think most of us pregnant women went through similar shifts -whether it was hormonal, that nesting urge, mood swings, etc so it all depends on how LS reacts to this shift and how it affects her actions going forward. I do respect how she does not try to convince anyone else that she can visualize the labor she wants. If my doctor had said that to me and even suggested that I replace getting an epidural with visualization when the time came I would have switched doctors that day. But that's just me.

[lostnscared]

Well yes but my concern is that this significant shift in mindset is fairly recent (meaning, what she wrote in the recent past did not reflect adaptability much of the time -not a criticism, just an observation) plus heavily influenced by, it sounds, like one or maybe two books she's read. I think most of us pregnant women went through similar shifts -whether it was hormonal, that nesting urge, mood swings, etc so it all depends on how LS reacts to this shift and how it affects her actions going forward. I do respect how she does not try to convince anyone else that she can visualize the labor she wants. If my doctor had said that to me and even suggested that I replace getting an epidural with visualization when the time came I would have switched doctors that day. But that's just me.

 

Your right. The shift in mindset is fairly recent, but it isn't just from reading books. Actually it was around this time last year when I started learning about this philosophy, and at the time adopted some of the beliefs. To which I did write about on previous threads earlier this year(i.e. western way versus eastern way of raising a child, projection, etc) these were all ideas that I was exploring and have been exploring since last year. But since I have not been working, and have more time on my hands, to research, read, and learn I'd say that yes since March I have experienced what I'd like to call an awakening. I don't think it has anything to do with hormonal shifts, or pregnancy. Being that this philosophy has also been adopted by my mom, and sisters, and aunt, and several other people I know that weren't pregnant at all. I'd say the hormonal shift I've had has been the moodiness and sensitivity to certain things, but certainly not my awakening.

Every woman is different. I completely understand wanting to get an epidural. And I suspect that is one of the reasons why many women opt to go to the doctor to deliver the baby. Having that pain relief option is desirable.

Though I do want to stress that I was not suggesting that I'd be practicing visualization during labor... I don't know I don't think I'm explaining this well, which I think maybe is making it difficult for people to understand what I am saying. When I say visualization I don't mean that I'll be visualizing during labor. Also not even talking about just positive thinking. Because actually achieving the labor I want will take more than just positive thinking and visualizing "something"(I don't know what you guys mean) during labor.

I've read about some women just picturing themselves at a waterfall, and keeping that vision in their mind as they go through contractions, but that is not at all what I am talking about lol. Is that what you mean when you say visualizing? I don't think that would work for me, and I'm not sure how well that works for others. I have only talked about what I plan to do PRIOR to labor(months before it takes place), not during, because that is an entirely different process to me. The only thing I have talked about in this thread is that I plan to do innerwork--mental, emotional-spiritual preparation before labor. I've said nothing about what I'll be doing during labor, or that visualizing is a pain coping method.

I hope that clears it up, because for some reason I get the feeling people think that I plan on picturing myself at a waterfall or something during contractions, or that I plan to just think positively about what my labor will be like prior to labor--and neither of these are at all what I've been talking about. LOL. But I think they are useful honestly.

 

I don't have a doctor, I have a midwife, btw.