At Home Births

[OptomisticGirl]

My best friend was lucky she was far enough along that they were okay with the birth progressing naturally. Oddly enough even born a month early, my niece NEVER spent a second in the NICU, and she only weighed 5 lbs. 1 oz. when she was born!

 

Then you have women like my sister whose placenta started tearing and they had to take my nephew two months early and he spent a little over a month in the NICU.

[sweetpea03]

The ones you referenced early on not only were from bias websites, but also never stated concrete numbers with where they got all of their facts from. Some home birth "can" be just as safe as hospital births, but there is always a risk involved. There is no such thing as a perfect 'low-risk' birth.

 

There isn't really a down side to getting an epidural. I had quoted earlier about several recent studies talking about how epidurals do not slow labor or cause an increase in c-sections(not sure on the exact wording from it off the top of my head). So I don't see how that is a major point in an argument against hospital births being more of a 'danger' or anything. I'm not surprised that so many women get an epidural, as they are great pain relief. Why would you want to go through so much pain if you don't have to?

 

Yes, the rate was a 3% decrease, which looking at it from a statistical standpoint lands in the knoll. I explained earlier that it does not signify any large statistical difference. There will always be some 'noise' involved making there be slight differences, but looking at it as a whole, they really don't mean anything. I've seen studies like these all the time in my health science statistics class(I'm a health science major). The way the studies are looked at is looking at the factors involved, which account for the noise, and then seeing where the statistical differences are to see what conclusion to accept, either the knoll or alternative.

 

I did make a bit of a leap there, I'll admit to that. Though there are other factors that need to be looked into to see why the c-section rate has gone up and there are many reasons. (longer life span/older age having children, more IVF/infertility treatments, higher risks of multiples from IVF or other infertility treatments, etc). All possible causes...

 

I have said before that a home birth can possibly be as safe as a hospital birth, given that the mother has no complications what-so-ever. Though in reality, no one really knows who will have complications and who won't. Also, if something were to go wrong, then a hospital is safer. There is no wait time to get medical treatment and it can be administered immediately. The hospital really is a safer choice because all in all, it's less of a risk to both mother and child. It is only that more mothers need to speak up if they do not feel something is right or want to do something differently. (and I'm glad you dropped the 'safer' statement).

[newwave]

Honestly, when it comes to birthing, I would ask my doctor before I would any site (whether I believed that site or not). I would prefer a hme birth, but for me it's way too risky so I'm fine with a birthing center at a hospital.

[Seraphim]

The trouble with the logic that women should speak up is....most people when having a first baby do not know the process,do not know what is "normal" or not. They have never had a baby before how could they know? No matter how much you research it believe me when you are in horrible agony and afraid all that you researched is not easy at hand in your mind. Also too we are taught that drs "know everything" even though they clearly don't. We are taught and TOLD to follow their advice even if it does not seem right to us cause what do we know. I also very much believe drs have their own agends.......it gets too long.......looks like they are going to miss something important to them they will hurry it along by whatever means. The mother and father seem antsy about the time it is taking..........yup lets move it along........do not want to be sued you know. Also too I have questioned drs myself about certain medical procedures done to me and if it was necessary and I got told THEY are the dr and THEY know not ME. So it is not as easy as one thinks to question a dr about what YOU feel is the right or wrong treatment.

[OptomisticGirl]

If a doctor told me that, I would be finding another doctor.

[Seraphim]

How does one find another dr in the middle of labour though? Not so easy right? People are often intimidated by things they do not know and people who seem "high up in the scale of knowing". It is not as easy as telling someone........hey you know start peppering with questions while you are the middle of having a baby. Or if you do not like it find another dr while you are in labour.......can not see that happening. Not everyone comes from a country where you can demand another dr because you personally pay for the services.

[OptomisticGirl]

Well I didn't mean in the middle of labor,I meant normally but even then yes, if I felt the doctor was not listening to ME, the mother and patient, I would demand a new one. Granted I'll be giving birth in the UK.

[Seraphim]

Even if you do demand that does not mean you are going to get another dr. Let me tell you what it is like in a country that has tax covered health care where I live. You get a dr and you stick with it because there are line ups a mile wide waiting for a dr because they are not enough drs to go around. If you want another dr you really have to look, as most established dr's do not take patients anymore, if you are lucky enough to find one starting up and looking for patients good on you.

 

I do not know how it works in the UK but as with most socialistic nations that is pretty much how it works Stand in Line because you are not directly paying the bill.

 

Also no one knows what they will be thinking or feeling or doing or contemplating until they actually are having a baby. It is impossible to know.

[OptomisticGirl]

I don't see how it's considered you don't pay the bill. You pay the taxes in order to have a NHS, so in a sense, you DO pay for the bill, just not then or as much of the cost as here.

[Seraphim]

You are not directly doing it. So you are not really "employing" a dr. Here drs are paid by the province and employed by the province. There are so many people waiting for a dr that believe me they do not care if they lose a disgruntled patient because there are hundreds to replace the one who left. They also have a cap on what they make.There is no encouragement for them to take more patients. There are walk in clinics where you can see a steady rotation of drs which provides no continuity. There are about 1.2 million people in this province with NO primary care physician because there is a shortage of drs. It is not so easy "demand" another one when you are lucky to have one to begin with.

[Fudgie]

I don't think all doctors have "agendas".

 

And many doctors practice "defensive medicine". This is why we need malpractice reform. You may think they have hidden "agendas", doing C-sections because they are being greedy just so they can buy that Mercedes or doling out epidurals so they can leave at 5pm to make that dinner date. No. Some doctors do extra procedures/treatments that you may not like because if YOU fall ill or your baby ends up messed up, who ought to be sued? Them. If they have done "everything that they can do" and are following procedures, then they won't be sued. If they decide to skip one just because "you don't like it", and then your birth goes horribly wrong, then they can be sued. They can't risk that. This is why doctors push for you to follow their advice and if you go against it, then they will make note of that and then if something goes wrong, it's on your conscious.

 

You can blame malpractice lawyers (ambulance chasers as we call them) and greedy patients who want to make a quick buck for this mess.

 

Not all doctors are greedy people with hidden agendas. I come from a family doctors, all primary care, who care a lot about patients work very hard. My father hates ordering expensive tests unless he really does need it. If a patient wants to do something that is NOT good for them, he urges and warns them not to, even explaining WHY they shouldn't, but at the end of the day, it's their choice, given that they are mentally sound to make that choice. And yes, he was sued a couple times for patients who went and did something STUPID (against his orders) and got themselves ill or killed themselves. He documented all of his contact with them and advice to them...urging them to follow it. He explains what his reasoning is and why the person should, what could go wrong, etc. As a result, he was never actually successfully sued. The families got zero dollars.

 

This is why doctors nag. Just deal with it and tell him no several times (as in, not consenting) but if the birth goes horribly wrong, don't be turning around and blaming him, because you made that choice for medicine not to intervene.

 

Just my .02.

[Seraphim]

Of course there are good and bad in every profession. When my son was born my primary cared for me till my 30th week and then I went under the care of my OB. Both were very minimalist when it came to interventions. I was glad for that. My OB only intervened when he was 100% sure there was no other way of doing something, ie my episiotomy. He had me push for over 3 hours just to try and get my son's head out. When he was 100% sure that was not going to happen, then he cut. The only other time he intervened was when my life was at stake after my son was delivered. I was lucky to have him. I felt that he really did care.

 

I was lucky enough to get the same OB the second time around too. However then my primary which was different than my first did not deal with pregnancy and referred me directly to the OB. That pregnancy did not end well though. He did save my life however once again. A very good and caring dr.

[Fudgie]

Yeah that was good.

 

Honestly, I think many doctors will push for interventions, but you will always have a choice. If you say no, then they can't do anything to you without your consent.

 

I know many good doctors but have only had 2 take care of me (a PCP and an endocrinologist) and just my luck, they have been HORRIBLE. The PCP (I left) did not do what was right for me because of her "religious beliefs" (apparently, women my age can't be on the pill, even for hormone problems) and the endocrinologist treated me like crap and just was very "rushed" with me, he just wanted to leave.

 

I do think most doctors have good intentions though. At least, they all should. When you are in that position, you need to be thinking about what is best for the patient, as well as keeping in mind the time constraints and money constraints (someday, doctors will be encouraged to do what is EFFECTIVE and COST-EFFICIENT and frivolous tests will not be good). Sadly, I think the malpractice mess really harms the patient-doctor relationship.

[OptomisticGirl]

The doctor I go to when I need an excuess for work, I love her. She always lowers the visit cost for me and always asks me do I want this and that test because she knows the money situation. A few months ago I was sick to my stomach every mornign waking up (obviously being a woman in a sexual relationship pregnancy was her first thought) and she asked me if I wanted her to do a test but it would be cheaper if I went and bought the a home test.

[Seraphim]

That is the thing the bridge between dr and patient is sometimes one that is hard too make work. Tis sad. I was lucky with the one I got though and I credit him with saving my life not once but twice.

[Fudgie]

You're right Victoria, it is hard. It stinks.

 

I think it's good if the doctor can explain things to the patient, even if it means "dumbing down" the explanations and all. But in the end, if the patient doesn't want something, it needs to be respected in the end...but the doctor should be heard out as well before the patient makes that choice.

 

Honestly, I think there's a great problem because of ABSOLUTES. There are 2 that exist:

1) Doctors are crooks and/or don't know anything. 2) Doctors are absolutely, always right and I should always listen without question.

 

Everyone can make mistakes. Doctors are human but they went to school for a long time and most of the time, yea they know what they are talking about. Not all are crooks either. I think it's cool when patients read up, are informed, or genuinely want to be to stay on top of things. They should understand what the doctor is doing with them and why (basically). The doctor needs to explain why. If something doesn't feel right, then patients need to speak up, ask questions, or get a second opinion.

[sweetpea03]

Oh, wow, sorry to hear about the bad luck with doctors. I've been fortunate to always have good doctors. My PCP is great and my specialist is, too. I see a pediatric plastic surgeon for my medical condition(and yea, I'm pretty much the oldest patient he has. lol) and he is amazing. I love that man, as he really helped my quality of life. My old specialist was good, too. He was a pediatric surgeon, but has retired, so I had to find a new one. I would trust either specialist with my life and they always explain through what is happening, what they want to do, and answer any questions I have. If I don't want something done or want it done differently, they will go for my way and not push me to do something I am not comfortable with. My specialist also charges me less than other people and has gone out of his way to help me, stayed at his office late just to see me. I would recommend him to anyone who would needs treatment.

[Fudgie]

Those sound like awesome doctors, sweetpea. I'm so glad you found them.

 

Thank goodness for my parents, they have been the best to me. I will not give up though. I'm sure there is a great doctor out there for me and I just haven't found him/her yet!

[sweetpea03]

Those sound like awesome doctors, sweetpea. I'm so glad you found them.

 

Thank goodness for my parents, they have been the best to me. I will not give up though. I'm sure there is a great doctor out there for me and I just haven't found him/her yet!

 

Yea, me too. I am VERY glad I found both of them. Though I went to over a dozen consultations to find my specialist. oye.. Too many doctors that I did not trust enough to stick with. It's hard to find a good doctor who knows a lot about a rare medical condition. Don't give up, there are great doctors out there.

[rocio]

This is an older thread but I'd like to comment anyway. (Don't know how I missed it the first time around, maybe I just wanted to avoid the controversy at the time.)

 

The fact is that health outcomes for both the mother and the baby are better for home births as compared to hospital births. This applies, of course, to low-risk pregnancies with a midwife/doctor present.

 

Yes, things can go wrong. But an experienced midwife has attended hundreds and hundreds of births. She's seen it all. And she's highly trained and experienced. She is able to identify risks. If anything goes wrong, she immediately calls the hospital to prepare the operating room. You drive to the hospital and you're there by the time the OR is ready. It is for this reason that I personally wouldn't advocate for a home birth if the home is more than about 10 or 15 minutes drive from the hospital. In that case, some women opt to birth in a hotel closer to the hospital.

 

In my case, I was literally a 5 minute drive from the hospital. If anything had gone wrong, I would have been there before the OR was even ready for me.

 

Additionally, if something does go wrong - for example the baby isn't breathing properly - the midwives have the skills, training and equipment to handle the situation. 4 midwives attended my birth. One was new and the other three had many decades of experience between them. They've seen countless natural births. Your average doctor hasn't seen many natural births. What he knows is how to handle births with interventions.

 

Finally, interventions such as labor induction and epidurals actually cause complications. For example, an epidural will often slow down or even stop labor. Then the doctors will say, "Oh, you need a c-section!" and the woman will come out saying, "Oh, thank God I wasn't at home. I needed a c-section because my body wasn't going to be able to birth on its own." Very, very rarely are interventions truly needed. More often they'll do more "harm" than good. And in those rare cases when interventions are needed, the midwife is able to identify that and deal with the situation.

 

My opinion is that, first and foremost, the well being of the mom and baby are really all that matter. After that, the most important thing is that the mother has a positive experience. Every woman is different. If having a relatively painless delivery is what a woman considers to be a postive experience for her, then absolutely she should explore pain management options.

 

For me, having a positive experience means that I am in control. I trust my health care providers to be there if and when I need them. But I also have faith in myself and my body, that I likely won't require interventions.

 

Unfortunately, many women have horrible hospital experiences where they feel out of control, they are terrified, they don't understand what's going on. Some women even report feeling like they were violently abused or feeling "raped" by having so little control and being treated unkindly by hospital staff. In fact, I have several friends who were traumatised by their hospital experiences.

 

My home birth was very long and very intense. But it was a positive experience. I was never afraid, I never felt out of control, I felt loved and supported and safe. It's a wonderful, empowering experience to endure something so intense and come out successful. I'm so excited to do it all over again. Unfortunately, if I had been in a hospital, they would have concluded that my labor wasn't progressing. I'm sure they would have insisted I take an epidural to stop me from screaming so loudly, pitocin to speed up my incredibly slow labor and when those two interventions counteracted each other and there was no progress, a c-section. All of which would have put both me and my daughter at greater risk.

[Seraphim]

^^^ My brother's wife had 2 of her babies at home and she said it was the best experience ever. Far better than having her first baby at the hospital. I would have preferred mine to be at home,but in the end I was lucky to be at the hospital because I had really unforeseen complications. If I did not have the uterus I have I would totally have kids at home. Having an epidural was actually detrimental to my son,because his heart beat fell dramatically for several minutes. I wish I would have held out because it was only 4 more hours after the epidural that he was born. But at the same time having an epidural stopped me from needing a general anesthetic for the operation after, so I do not know which was better. I generally do not do so well with general anesthetic,both my parents are allergic to most of them,and they cause me lots of problems too. I tend to wake up long before I should. During my last operation they said I was crying, so I guess I was not totally out. I generally really like to avoid hospitals.

[OptomisticGirl]

I think if like rocio said, you have a low risk pregnancy and you live close to the hospital and you want a home birth, go for it. I know for me personally even if I had a low risk pregnancy and lived near a hospital, I would never want to do a home birth. I don't have a problem with hospitals and would actually feel more safe in one. Granted anything can still go wrong in a hospital - and as rocio also pointed out, sometimes what they give you can in fact cause those things to go wrong - but for me, it just isn't my slice of cake. I am warming up to the idea of a midwife more so than having a doctor there though.

[Seraphim]

Yeah, my sister in law is very low risk and had all of her kids in like 2 or 3 hours no problem.

 

I did not know I had issues till I got pregnant to begin with,many people don't. They did not even know I had tumours till I got pregnant.When I got pregnant with my son I had about 15 of them. 14 on the inside of the uterus and one on the outside. Five of them were very big and were competing with him for room in uterus. By the time of my last pregnancy they could not even count the number I have and were surprised by baby had found the only part of my uterus that did not have a tumour in it. Of course as he grew the placenta formed in the tunours and caused a bleed on my side of the placenta and the placenta detached when I was 4 months along which of course killed him. After having a baby I need a D&C immediately to detach the placenta because it gets intwiened with the tumours and won't detach, so I have the chance of bleeding to death. Then I need medications to make my uterus contract because it won't on it's own.

[rocio]

That all sounds awful, Victoria. I'm so sorry you had to endure that.

[Seraphim]

Thanks. It is why I have such a hard time getting pregnant to begin with and staying pregnant, and now of course I am getting too old. From what my OB said, I might have had the tumours since I was a teen but no one knew because my uterus is harder to examine because it is retroverted and they only saw them on ultra sound. They would prefer if I got a hysterectomy but I do not want that. They asked if they caused me pain when I had the 15 of them and I said no, and they looked me like I had 4 heads. Maybe I am just used to discomfort as part of life and I do not notice it so much.