I'm so exhausted. I don't know how to keep going...

[brazilgirl21]

Gry - Yeah, ncnc is right, he's an american in Brazil.

 

Anyways Gry, I don't think you read my post correctly, I do not date based on looks. The 3 last guys I "dated", only J was really gorgeous. A was considered ugly by my friends and my ex was a normal/good looking guy but nothing really special about his looks.

 

Plus, looks is so subjective. It's definetly not what I look for in guys.

[brazilgirl21]

I wonder if J and the artist are together. I mean, I know it'd do no good to me, but I can't help but wonder.

 

She e-mailed me last night and wrote: "M, J is very confused within himself. He really did nothing out of ordinary. Everyone ended up getting involved and got hurt with the happenings that we didn't know about. But M, it's a fact... these things happen! I'm sorry for this situation. Forgetting this is definetly the most intelligent thing to do."

 

This was through facebook, and I noticed she's not friends with J on facebook anymore. What does this means?

 

I know I'm beating myself and I shouldn't even think about it, but I'm curious. Are they together?

[penelope13]

BG, you said that this was a tough year and that you are disappointed/ hurt/ angry about everything that happened (the guys as well as yourself). - I think this is a great opportunity for you to take 'personal inventory' : you cannot change how others behave, but you have the power to change yourself.

 

Don't misunderstand me, i am not saying that you should become a different person, but I think anyone at any given time in life can undergo some personal growth. More often than not these developments take place when someone has faced adversary/ pain.

 

If you were always dreaming of going abroad for an MBA, then you should do exactly that. It can be tough, but it will also enrich your life. Just be sure you are not doing this because you are running away from your dating experiences.

 

You responded to Batya with the following: "this is just the way I am". I strongly believe anyone can change/ learn anything (behaviorally speaking), if their motivation is strong enough. Mostly this statement (which nearly everyone uses), translates into: "I don't really feel the need to change, nor do I want to invest the energy that is required to unlearn a behavior and replace it with a different one". There is no problem whatsoever to feel this way, as long as one is prepared to acknowledge that one's own behavior might have a big influence on the outcomes that one is unhappy about.

 

True, J's behavior wasn't above board in the past few weeks, nor was A treating you the way you deserve. However they have to decide themselves how they want to be. As said, the only thing you can do is change yourself, in the sense, that you learn to protect yourself a bit more, and especially to deal differently with your anxiety.

 

I am sure you are feeling less anxious now that things with J are over, but now is the time to try to figure out how you could have decreased the anxiety for yourself, since sooner or later you will meet another guy.

[Batya33]

Gry - Yeah, ncnc is right, he's an american in Brazil.

 

Anyways Gry, I don't think you read my post correctly, I do not date based on looks. The 3 last guys I "dated", only J was really gorgeous. A was considered ugly by my friends and my ex was a normal/good looking guy but nothing really special about his looks.

 

Plus, looks is so subjective. It's definetly not what I look for in guys.

 

That's a great attitude - from your previous posts there seemed to be a lot of focus on J's looks so if this experience has changed your outlook to this extent, that's a great result.

[brazilgirl21]

There was definetly other attributes from J that I really liked. There was something in him that made me trust him a lot. I trusted him in a way I don't trust a lot of people. Not as a boyfriend, but as a person. I felt safe when I was with him, when I talked to him.

 

Pen - I actually think I've been using dating as an excuse NOT to study abroad. I'm VERY scared of leaving this safety zone, this place where I feel at home, with my best friends, family close by, my country, my job. Finding a great guy and being in a relationship would be the perfect excuse for me to bail my plans of moving. It would be the incentive for me to let go of my dreams and stay here, settled, safe, comfortable. My anxiety is not just about guys, I'm scared in general. I'm scared of the future and I'm terrified of the unknown.

 

However, I know that the ONLY thing that will cure this anxiety is going and realizing nothing will happen. I won't slip into depression, I won't go crazy, I won't lose myself, I won't lose my family and friends... everything will stay the same and I'll only be facing my fears...

 

I need to do this for me. It's what I want. I know deep down it's what I want and it's what will make me happy.

 

I'm applying to this business program (deadline in 2 weeks) that is like a pre-mba course. I can take 4 months out of 5 options of business studies (marketing, finance, global business, etc...). After these 4 months, I can come back to Sao Paulo and everything will be the same. I can probably go back to my job, decide if I want to apply to an MBA, do whatever I want. Or, after these 4 months I can take a 4 month internship in the US. Or I can chose the 1 year program, 4 months of one course (marketing for example), 4 months of another a course (finance) and 4 months of the internship.

 

I think that works REALLY well for my anxiety. A full-time MBA, a 2 years program is too final/scary for me. What if I freak out and hate it? This 4 months + 4 months + 4 months is ideal to me because I can just go with my flow.

 

I'm REALLY scared. I'm almost wanting to wait to apply for May instead of January but honestly, I should just apply and go now. Why keep waiting? I'll always be scared, You know? Should I just hang here until I meet X, Y or Z, my ex breaks up with his ex and comes back to me, A or J decided they want me, what should I wait? Something to make me keep hiding away from what I want?

[brazilgirl21]

The artist and J are friends again on facebook. =[

 

Whatever that means... anyways pretty childish of them to do this whole unfriend/friend again thing.

 

I bet they are like "in love" and I got in the middle of true love.

[brazilgirl21]

Facebook is the plague!!!!

 

I'm feeling really horrible right now.

 

Do you guys think the way I acted could have affected this outcome? Maybe if I wasn't so anxious and acted like I didn't care he could have "chosen" me?

 

Why do guys like J gets to choose from a pool of 33425251 million girls? It really does not seem fair.

 

In an effort to try and look less shady he told me a lot of girls asked him out but he only went out with the artist and I. He literally said: "M, that has been my life for the past month and a half, going out with you and her, talking to you and her".

 

And all this time I was worried about his ex and not this artist girl. I remember like a few weeks ago I saw they became friends on facebook and since my best friend was friend in common with this girl, I asked her about her. But she was like, "M, don't worry, this girl is not J's style. She's an artist, has a bunch of tattoes and piercings... ". I didn't even talk to you guys about this. My best friend dated J's best friend for a month while he was with his ex and they went out together a few times so she thought she "knew" J and his style. And his ex was more like me, same american school, similar friends, really close to her family, etc... So all this time I was worried about him and his ex when ugh, he's in love with a 20 year old art student? With piercing and tattoos and a carefree attitude? Kill me now! Seriously this is too much for me to handle!

[annie24]

oh hun, i would stop looking at both of their FBs and move on. i do agree with gyrmoire's hunch that if this man wasn't quite so good looking, i bet you wouldn't have been intrigued. as in, if he had these 2 MBAs, but he were kind of heavyset, balding, and had a beer belly, i don't think you would have been swooning so much over him. my 2 cents.

 

anyways, he has proven that he is not your dream man. so please, go work on those applications and try to put this all behind you.

[brazilgirl21]

Annie - I agree! There are SO many smart guys, smarter than J, who have MBAs and whatever but are bald, ugly, and fat. The thing about looks is... when the person is a full package: smart, sweety, funny... and on top of that, he's dreamy looking, it's just that much easier to fall for/harder to let go.

 

I guess I was able to let go of A quite easily because he wasn't as good looking. It's so shallow if I think about it.

 

But there was something about J, other than looks, that just drew me in.

 

I'm having a hard time, but I know I'll be ok in a few weeks. I just need to stick to NC. It's tough. I feel like messaging him every sec of the day. =~~ [

[annie24]

i understand totally what you mean. i've been head over heels for men who looked less than abercrombie models - they just had *something* about them. i know what you mean.

 

in the end, from an outsider's perspective, what is there left to say to J? i mean, maybe i'm oversimplifying things, but the bottom line is, you aren't what he is looking for. so why torture yourself mroe by hearing more versions of that line? i'd move on as fast as possible now

[brazilgirl21]

Annie - I know! There's nothing at all to say. NOTHING.

 

I wish we could be friends, but well, until I've moved on, that wouldn't be good either.

 

Do you think that if I acted more like the artist, didn't care about seeing him, making dates, etc... he would have liked me?

[penelope13]

Well, he said more than once that he was not looking for anything serious right now, so your eagerness might have suggested to him that you are way more invested than he is willing to give at the moment. But that's a question of how willing he was at that moment to commit rather than anything to do with your personality. And as stereotypic as it may be, most men like to think that they are in charge/ the ones who are doing the chasing.

 

You should really stop this train of thought that if you would have acted more "arty" and less "type A", it would have made any difference.

 

There could be 101 reasons why he prefers her to you. You are simply not the one for him right now.

 

You could be the most amazing person in the world - there would still be guys who would prefer someone else. There is no 'personality type' that is a guarantee that you will get the guy that you want.

 

There are always 2 people involved and they both have to want the same thing at the same time. If either one is missing, it will not work out, but it doesn't mean that you have to become a totally different person.

 

 

 

Why we (at least I) kept suggesting that you might take a step back was not because I thought that would ensure that you would end in a relationship with him, but it was to ensure that you would not get involved too much without knowing if he was as interested in you as you were in him. It's nice that you want to give so much so early, but experience has taught me that it is not healthy for me to do so in the long term.

 

We have so many things going on in life that take up all our energy that we should be conservative into what we invest it, thus even if I like a guy a lot (or for that matter it could be also when I get to know a new friend), I would always make sure that I give him enough opportunity to show me without any poking from my side if/ how much he likes me as well and how willing he is to invest time/ energy into me and into getting to know me. I want to know if I consider starting a relationship that he decided to do so by his own choice/ free will, not because I kept him so busy that he didn't have time to think about it and it was some kind of default thing to do.

[brazilgirl21]

You know, the part that REALLY hurt me? It's funny now because the artist is a really funny girl, but it broke my heart.

 

Before I found out about how he had been two timing us and she wasn't only a casual hookup, he told me that he REALLY liked me but that he wasn't READY to give me what I needed, that he needed a little more time and asked if I could give him that. (he sensed I wanted something serious)

 

When the artist called me she asked me what J told me he went to do after the concert with me. I said he told me he was going to a Bachelor's party. The girl was like, "hahahaha, what Bachelor's party? He went to meet me. Maybe he meant HIS Bachelor's party since the next day he talked about getting serious with me and I told him I didn't want a relationship".

 

Later she kind of backed off and said he was confused and bla bla... but still you know? That's a bit hurtful that he actually wanted a serious relationship... with this girl who couldn't care less about him. This girl who literally mocked "his cute e-mails" to me. I mean, great slap on the face.

 

P - I promise, I really, really do NOT think I'll ever be as anxious as I was with J. Nobody else will mean what he meant to me, this ideal of perfection, that I need to be so perfect and not let go. For me, he was like this rare diamond. I just felt something too strong for him and I won't again. There won't be another J, and I'm happy because it was too much to deal with. I want someone who puts ME on a pedestal, not the other way around.

[penelope13]

P - I promise, I really, really do NOT think I'll ever be as anxious as I was with J. Nobody else will mean what he meant to me, this ideal of perfection, that I need to be so perfect and not let go. For me, he was like this rare diamond. I just felt something too strong for him and I won't again. There won't be another J, and I'm happy because it was too much to deal with. I want someone who puts ME on a pedestal, not the other way around.

 

You don't owe me any promises.

 

Apart from that, I don't believe in absolutes. Didn't you say after your turmoil with your ex, you would never find anyone again, now you think you won't find anyone as 'ideal of perfection' as J? - Honey, I am sure once you find the right guy for you who treats you with respect and maturity you will be surprised how little perfection there was in J (regardless if he is a decent guy). But you seriously have been dating only for a few weeks.

 

I also don't see the benefit of staying in touch with this other girl. You are just getting more upset the more you hear. Nor do I understand what her motivation might be to be in contact with you.

 

Dating multiple people at the same time, is not something uncommon in american culture, you might want to remember that if you move the the US.

 

Again, I think it's not a healthy train of thought for you to compare yourself to her and to feel that he should have chosen you because you are the better 'person, personality, marriage material' etc. - There is no accounting for personal taste/ preference. On top these things might also change for people over time.

[brazilgirl21]

Pen - Yeah, I think this was a really big shock to me, the girl and J.

 

For him it was really common to be dating two people at the same time, kissing/intimate with both. He was like, what, I was dating both and felt like I would naturally choose one when I felt like it. Absolutely normal. He thought my friends were RIDICULOUS and acted like spoiled rich kids to meddle with his life.

 

In Brazil, that person would definetly be consider a player.

 

The girl is in contact with me because the details were astonishing. Got her number in the same day he went out with me, called us the same days, wrote similar texts... it was just too similar.

 

The difference was the way she and I reacted to this scenario. She thought this american guy was crazy about her and she was being a "player". It was a shock to her that he was also dating someone else. I guess it wasn't good for her ego either.

 

How can it be common in America though? I really did not know that. Go in one/two casual dates, fine. But keep seeing two girls for 1.5 months? We went out/hung out at lease 10 times. And, it stopped because I caught him.

[bexcelant]

I just went through this myself and I am in the same position as you brazilgirl. The girl went after a guy who I thought had nothing in common with her while I had it all and matched up intellectually, interests, backgrounds, religion, family, and age. While the person that she choose is none of those things. He doesn't match up one bit and so she went out with me and this other guy at the same time. In the end, she only came out and admitted she was dating the other guy "exclusively". If she were so exclusive, why did she keep hanging out with me and talking about future dates with me?

 

Think of it this way. Do you want to be the mistress? How much self respect do you have? I thought about it and pulled myself out of this mess and went no contact.

 

I respect myself too much to allow myself to be at her beck and call and in the second position whenever she wants. If she claims to be in a relationship with this other girl, then fine, have fun. I won't stick around.

 

Respect is the cornerstone of any good relationship. The moment you lose that, is the moment, you've lost the relationship. At least this way, I respect myself and she has to respect me even though she's with someone else. I didn't burn my bridges and she might come back around someday. In the meantime...NEXT!!!

[brazilgirl21]

bexcelant - That sucks man... We should definetly move on though... I mean why would they come around though? We are clearly not their FIRST choice... I really don't want to be anyone's consolation prize.

 

I still don't understand how it can be acceptable in the US to date two people at the same time. It can ONLY lead to people getting hurt. And this year, in triangles, I'm the one always getting hurt. I feel like I exist this year to bring people closer together by creating havoc and making them realize how much they love eachother. My ex and his new girl, J and the artist. Please give me another role in the world God!

[penelope13]

How can it be common in America though? I really did not know that. Go in one/two casual dates, fine. But keep seeing two girls for 1.5 months? We went out/hung out at lease 10 times. And, it stopped because I caught him.

 

Unless you both decide that you want to be exclusive with each other, all bets are off. Don't ask me why it is like that (i'm not american), but it's just something you have to be aware of. Of course there are also many people who don't date multiple people. But you can never know until you explicitly talk/ decide on exclusivity.

 

This is another reason why it makes sense at the early stages of getting to know someone not to invest too much from the get go and finding out if the other person is willing to come up with ideas for dates etc.

[brazilgirl21]

Pen - Like I said, we hungout at least 10 times and the only time I asked him out was probably on our second and last date. The other 8 times we met were initiated by him. It was pretty 50/50 until the last week when he went cold and I asked him to the concert.

 

He called me more than I called him, he asked to hangout, he invited me to dinner, he invited me to the movies, he invited me to hangout at 1am at his house, he invited me to go to the pool with him.

 

I think since I posted so much because I was always so anxious it seemed like I was putting more effort. In the last few days, yes, but in the first 4 weeks he was contacting me/asking me out too.

 

And ugh, I don't even want to remind myself but 2 weeks ago we were making out in his bed and he said we had an amazing chemistry, and bla bla and Monday he was like, no chemistry.

 

Guys are weird.

[bexcelant]

This dating multiple people is typically only a US thing. I read that in the UK, Germany, and throughout Europe, that dating multiple people is considered bad form.

 

Myself, I don't think I got a fair chance to prove myself. Not enough dates or one and one time with her alone to see how we interacted. I felt that the chemistry was building and that she really liked me. Instead she likely chose the man who she had the most chemistry with.

 

You know, I was once one of these guys. I know how to ramp up the Chemistry and to do it fast. It's easy. All you have to do is start inserting sexual innuendo into the conversation and asking her how daring she is. A few strategic touches here and there and voila...there's Chemistry.

 

I don't do this sort of thing anymore. I want to know who she really is. I go at a slower pace and I figure that any intelligent dater would know that two people move at a different relationship speeds. So in the US, if you're going to date more than one person, they should tell you upfront and what they expect from you. Take your time and let the other person or yourself catchup. If they run away from you and take the easiest thing that comes along to give them what they want. What does that say about their character?

[brazilgirl21]

Yeah, I think the thing is, in the US, dating doesn't involve kissing.

 

So it's normal to go out with multiple people without hooking up. That's ok.

 

But the minute you become physically intimate with someone, is the minute I don't think it's ok to date more than 1 person.

 

Oh well, I guess part of the dating game is getting hurt. I'd been really lucky in the past but this year I was just faced with the reality of what dating is. I don't like it.

[penelope13]

Yeah, I think the thing is, in the US, dating doesn't involve kissing.

 

So it's normal to go out with multiple people without hooking up. That's ok.

 

Actually kissing or even more physical activity is still considered part of casual dating (very different from my cultural background) in the US, so it's entirely possible for people to be intimate with more than one person at a time. Until I moved to the US I never understood what was the big deal on US sit coms about becoming 'exclusive'.

[viajera]

No, actually in the US, it's common to date, kiss, and even hook up with multiple people at the same time, and often for several months or more. The deal is that dating is presumed to be non-exclusive until specified otherwise, whereas it sounds like you're running off the opposite presumption. Basically, people here have an attitude like that of the artist - the relationships aren't serious, they're just for fun, unless and until the couple decides together to make it something serious. The thing is, usually you don't know whether you want to commit to someone until after you've gotten to know them, which can take quite a while, depending on the people and situation involved. If you know 3 guys, and they're all promising, why should you give up on the other 2 to pursue one, if you don't even know if that one is a compatible match for you?

 

Bxcelant, it sounds like that might be a classic situation of you being the "good" match while the other the "exciting" match. She kept seeing you because you were the kind of guy she knew she "should" be with, whereas the other guy was the one that interested her more. I've been there - I'm typically drawn to men very different from me, but at one point I met and dated the guy I thought I "should" be with. It didn't work out - turned out there was no chemistry at all once things got serious - but I kept seeing him, despite seeing other (and, to me, more interesting) men because he was the one I thought I should be with.

[brazilgirl21]

Pen - Yeah, in Brazil people do kiss a lot of people and casually hookup.

 

There are types of girls though. It's weird to explain. For example, I wouldn't mind at ALL, if a guy I was dating but not exclusively, hooked up with a random girl at a club. Heck I was 100% sure J was having sex or casually hooking up with girls when he went out with his friends. That's NOT the problem in Brazil. Guys do that, they kiss/hookup/have sex with a girl for a night.

 

However, it is NOT common to maintain a relationship, calling, texting, going out weekly,with two people.

 

So yeah, it is a HUGE deal to become exclusive here, it's called: "namorar".

 

Do you kind of understand the difference?

 

Casual hookups and dating one girl semi-seriously (maintaining constant contact/leading on before becoming exclusive = fair game.

 

Dating two girls semi-seriously at the same time although not exclusive = playing with people's emotions.

 

So basically, in this country, it's better if a guy goes out with you, movies, concerts, dinners, house... and only you, but kiss 20 other girls in random nights than ONLY seeing you and another girl semi serious.

 

It's not like that in the US?

[annie24]

in the US, it's quite common to date several people if you are not exclusive. especially for the first month, as he did with you and the artist.