feminism not a variable? check splitting

[Batya33]

2 minutes ago, mylolita said:

One is still one Batya, don't ever put yourself down! In some ways, it can be more work actually, as when you have two or more, they pair up, play together, and entertain themselves for awhile! So don't sell yourself short at all!!! 😉

Ahhh yes, great minds... hahahahahahahahahaha!

x

Oh I just meant I wasn’t physically waddling around pregnant while caring for a little one. Totally not putting myself down. My niece has 3 girls under 7 who we met for the first time last week. Baby is 4 months old. While my son and I were visiting - she lives across the country from us - her mastitis flared up.  Luckily her two older ones are well behaved generally but - wow.  Chills and feverish and alone with 3 kids.
We offered to stay till husband came home but then we’d have missed our last bus back to our hotel. She insisted we leave (felt badly about not being able to drive us) and husband was arriving shortly. She works part time at her kids school and she NEVER does nothing. She’s 34. She does have a part time sitter for baby while she works and her MIL came to stay when her babies were born.  A few weeks each. Her oldest needed major surgery as an infant. 
Bigstan I truly am shocked you’d think a full time parent would have any days with little or nothing to do much less on any regular basis. Sounds like mg husband’s elderly uncle. RIP. When our son was a few weeks old he called me to congratulate.  He raised two sons.

 I told him it was amazing and I also was exhausted. He LAUGHED hysterically that a full time parent could possibly be exhausted or working hard. I hung up smiling at the obvious generational attitude and went back to my couch and box of Ghirardelli truffles and scrolled Instagram shaking my head …..😉

[mylolita]

1 minute ago, Batya33 said:

Oh I just meant I wasn’t physically waddling around pregnant while caring for a little one. Totally not putting myself down. My niece has 3 girls under 7 who we met for the first time last week. Baby is 4 months old. While my son and I were visiting - she lives across the country from us - her mastitis flared up.  Luckily her two older ones are well behaved generally but - wow.  Chills and feverish and alone with 3 kids.
We offered to stay till husband came home but then we’d have missed our last bus back to our hotel. She insisted we leave (felt badly about not being able to drive us) and husband was arriving shortly. She works part time at her kids school and she NEVER does nothing. She’s 34. She does have a part time sitter for baby while she works and her MIL came to stay when her babies were born.  A few weeks each. Her oldest needed major surgery as an infant. 
Bigstan I truly am shocked you’d think a full time parent would have any days with little or nothing to do much less on any regular basis. Sounds like mg husband’s elderly uncle. RIP. When our son was a few weeks old he called me to congratulate.  He raised two sons.

 I told him it was amazing and I also was exhausted. He LAUGHED hysterically that a full time parent could possibly be exhausted or working hard. I hung up smiling at the obvious generational attitude and went back to my couch and box of Ghirardelli truffles and scrolled Instagram shaking my head …..😉

I guess it adds another dimension! But I still think 1 is a-plenty of work! I had bad sickness throughout most of mine, but was never sick! Really frustrating! But it was so hard, I will admit, and the week hubby worked away - ugh. Full mornings and nights getting them all to bed was tough. I was always relived to pop out the baby!!! Then after 3 days, he'd be back to work more than full time again. I've never really looked back properly at the time - it's so recent, but feels a million years ago. It was, and is sometimes, intense. Bad and good. But mostly beyond beautiful! 

Your poor sister!!! She is a trooper!

Sometimes, it does feel easy - when you're organised, most things are done, they play together beautifully, and you can sit on a park bench for a moment or have a cup of coffee without a fight breaking out or someone falling or something spilling... those 5 minutes are, GORGE. LOL!!!!!!

x

[boltnrun]

I mean, it wasn't go go go 100 mph 24/7. Of course not. But there was always something that needed to be done. Whether it was catching up on laundry (no in-house laundry, we rented apartments) or washing dishes (no dishwasher) and bottles or sippy cups, picking up toys, meal prep, cleaning...the list goes on. It's amazing how many clothes an eight pound baby can wear. (And even now when it's just me I still need to do three loads of laundry per week to stay caught up.) Oh, and I also had to find time to shower so I didn't stink. 

Sure, if I didn't care I could have left the apartment a mess and just thrown a frozen pizza in the oven and served it on paper plates and let the laundry pile up until we were down to just our swimsuits but that just wasn't (and isn't) me. 

[reinventmyself]

Having been a SAHM, I drank the kool-aid that the man came home from a *long day at work*   After all, it was the model grew up with.  My Dad was a very important man, who came home in his tailored black suit, carrying a black briefcase.  (insert Don Draper)

Mind you, I worked prior to having kids, but not much time at a 40 hour a week job.  Mostly part time jobs.

Fast fwd, I am divorced, working 40hrs and commuting 3 hours a day.  Jokes on me! Even though my job and schedule was pretty demanding it was far less taxing than running a household and raising kids.  

I seriously had those head shaking moments.  Hands down, going work is much easier.  Add in the perks of corporate lunches, coffee breaks, being around other adults while simultaneously relearning my social skills and burning some of my missing brain cells.  

[reinventmyself]

On 5/22/2023 at 11:21 AM, Big Stan said:

I have no problem with the women who do ask men out and pay on occasion, but you'd be dishonest if you said that it's not STILL seen today overwhelmingly like a "man's" responsibility. 

You're married. .  Correct?   Somehow along the way and some of the content you share, this little detail gets lost.

[Big Stan]

17 minutes ago, reinventmyself said:

Your married, Correct?   Somehow along the way, some of the content you share this little detail get's lost.

I can know that today it's still a majority man's obligation without looking for dates myself.  I do know other men, we talk.  

[Cherylyn]

45 minutes ago, reinventmyself said:

I seriously had those head shaking moments.  Hands down, going work is much easier.  Add in the perks of corporate lunches, coffee breaks, being around other adults while simultaneously relearning my social skills and burning some of my missing brain cells.  

I agree employment is far easier!  I get to jump in the shower at the crack of dawn,  take coffee breaks,  eat lunch on schedule and engage in pleasant adult conversations.  I can dine out with my colleagues during midday.  I can walk,  come and go as I please and use the restroom whenever I want.  I can commute in my silent car without anyone clamoring for my attention and have my sweet freedom otherwise not afforded to me as a SAHM with my two little baby sons underfoot.  I remember those days very well.  Employment is a piece of cake compared to SAHM-hood any day,   hands down.  👐

[Big Stan]

Do you guys not have any responsibility at work?  I have to make some very serious decisions at work that if done wrong can really hurt a lot of people.  Ruin other's livelihoods, cause who knows how much damage.  People rely on me doing my job well and I feel the weight of that responsibility the same as someone raising a child takes responsibility for the welfare of their children I do so for my place of employment.  It's my job to do so.  

Dealing with major problems, making risky financial decisions, weighing meanings of sales figures and margins, overseeing all the paperwork is done correctly.  I've spent plenty of time raising my son on a one on one basis and the pressure of the decisions involved is an order of magnitude less.  

It's not very hard to know what the right answer is when raising a child.  Sure you still have to follow through and do it, but in business lots of times you have to first come up with the answer completely on your own.  Most decisions in raising a child are common sense.  Of course healthy food is good for them, a calm house where cooperation and education is encouraged, Making sure that physical activity nurtures a love for fitness and a few other basic things.  You do all those things and your kid is probably going to turn out well.  

In my job there are no such answers.  It's up to you to make the right call when you're dealing with different personalities and skillsets.  When you have limited resources and need to maximize profits you have to use your resources wisely.   There are basics on how to run a job of course just as there is with child care but there are a lot more factors in your control because you're dealing with more than one person or a couple of kids that are partly like you and also going to take cues on how to behave from you.  

Adults are fully formed and completely different people and it's much harder to get consistent cooperation from a group of random adults than it is from your own kids. 

[reinventmyself]

28 minutes ago, Big Stan said:

Do you guys not have any responsibility at work?  I have to make some very serious decisions at work that if done wrong can really hurt a lot of people.

Silly question.  Am I going to say no, I didn't have any responsibility and didn't make important decisions?  

For that matter, the father of my sons saved lives for living and he still said my job as a SAHM was the more difficult one.

[Big Stan]

39 minutes ago, reinventmyself said:

Silly question.  Am I going to say no, I didn't have any responsibility and didn't make important decisions?  

For that matter, the father of my sons saved lives for living and he still said my job as a SAHM was the more difficult one.

Unless he was a high stakes surgeon his life saving probably isn't the sort to decision making pressure that I'm talking about.  Not saying jobs like police or fireman aren't difficult or even heroic at times, they are but you don't really have to figure out what to do.  Building on fire with someone inside, go get them out.  Don't let them burn up if possible.  The decision tree there is pretty simple.  

Same with a cop or a soldier, see the enemy arrest/ shoot them.  Follow your orders.  In the case of the military you really don't have much decision unless you're a high up officer in which case they do understand the decision making pressure I'm talking about.  So depending on what the father of your child did he may or may not get the sort of responsibility I'm talking about either.  

It's not gender dependent, I didn't get this responsibility because of my gender but because of my chosen career as a business executive.  I get paid well but it's because I get to make all the decisions but the other side of that is I am responsible for all the outcomes of those choices.  Very few things in life have that kind of accountability.  I can think of executive, attorneys that are high enough to run their cases the way they want, certain finance jobs, surgeons, and anyone that makes their money by 100% running their own business provided that their business has outside employees.  

[Cherylyn]

@Big Stan The difference between employment vs. full time parenthood is huge IMHO.  At the workplace,  I'm autonomous and can concentrate on doing my job successfully whereas with child rearing,  it's a juggling act to do everything right simultaneously for another life or two in my case.  If comparing one child to two or more,  sure, one child is so easy.  Anyway,  at work,  all I have to do is focus on my responsibilities vs. numerous distractions at the home front while ensuring the safety and health of my very young children.  And, I'm not stuck at home.  We were on-the-go a lot which was tiring and required the patience of a saint.

There were years when I was a SAHM and after harried and frenetically paced weekends with our young family,  my husband would often quip:  "I need to go back to work to catch a break and rest!"  He has a pressure cooker job yet he still found it easier to work than do a million endless crazy tasks for family at home,  during outings,  etc.  It is no wonder child rearing is for the young because it's so taxing,  draining,  mentally and physically exhausting.  To me,  marching off to an office is a relief compared to around-the-clock care for little ones.    

[mylolita]

I think we can all agree, some jobs are higher in pressure and stress than others, for sure! It's not life and death everyday with children, but when you have someone young at home, like a baby, if you don't watch them while they eat, they could choke and die, or get distracted while they're in the bath - they can drown. You read horrible tales about this, and I nearly choked and died as a kid myself, messing on with my sister piling up sweets and seeing who could fit the most in our mouths. If it hadn't been for my Dad keeping calm and my Mum instantly calling 999, I might not have been here.

We live in a small, coastal town, but most mornings I walk my three kids (1, 3 and 5 years old) the 10 minute walk, which is on a narrow path along the only main and busy road to the school. This is quite stressful. If they run off, or get pushed, or mess on, they could easily be run over. People drive way too fast round there. 

I remember last year, my 3 year old daughter let slip of my hand, I wasn't holding her tight enough, and she ran across a road, and the car had to stop, or she would have gone under. It was literally life and death. She froze in the middle of the road, and I was shaking and in shock. Thank God the driver was an old guy, taking his time. He shook his head at me and cursed, I think he was a shook up as me. Never again! I am absolutely paranoid around busy roads now. It's not so easy as put them all in a pram as well, when you have 3, and my eldest always walks now, and so does my 3 year old pretty much, and then the 1 year old wants to join in. The responsibility is huge.

I often watch a YouTube channel called 'Soft White Underbelly' - all the drug addicts, all the mess ups and hopeless people, they all mostly come from horrendous childhoods where parents were abusive or didn't care or were on drugs themselves. Your childhood shapes your whole life, and is, impossibly important. It's everything. And we are raising the next generation, the people who will pay the next round of tax, be the next politicians, the next police officers, and yes, the next surgeons - so we better do it right! 

I struggle with my moods a lot, and it's not easy for me to put aside my temper some days, and my irritation, and my frustration, and carry on, and have a great day out, and run everything, and then be a wife to my husband when he gets home, and have friends, and be an active part of the community. It ain't easy to keep it all together - well, not for me, anyway!

I am not saying people who work don't have stress, aren't hectic, don't have life or death decisions to make - but they often have a team about them, where as, I think the other stressful thing about being at home all day alone with babies is, it's all down to you. If my kids choke, it's me, that's it. I can call 999 but, I have to do it, no one else is here to defer to. I have had to give my husband life saving CPR and I tell you what, it's not something I ever, ever want to repeat again, but I'd do it, of course.

I'm also not getting paid for my "work" - oh, to cash in on 14 hours 7 days a week, to be able to monetise parenting? Tell me how!!! So the rewards are much different, but much greater, than money. 

People who have highly stressful or risky jobs are normally rewarded with, more time off, or high incomes as well, which I think can balance out the hectic responsibilities. 

My husband who runs his own business and employs a few people often also says, he would give anything to be at home with our 3 full time, but he realises it's tough, and when he's had them for 5 hours straight, I have often thought, where is he? And he's gone to the bedroom, and is conked out napping, flat out, on top of the sheets!

I think feminism has a fault as in, it has trashed the mother in a way - made her silly, useless, and lazy. There is no doubt that my Grandma worked ten times harder than me. More children, and no dish washers, no washing machine, no late night supermarket, none of that! She had to light fires every morning to get the water to heat in a boiler! I am well aware I am privileged and yes, have it easy in so so many ways.

Not trying to down play stressful jobs - I just think, when done solidly for a good amount of time, parenting is testing but amazing, and not always easy. 

Babies change all the time as well. You have one schedule down, and then they grow up a little, drop a nap, diets change, health issues come up. Sleeping issues happen. Discipline is a constant discussion - as they get older, they get naughty in different ways. You can't control how a child is going to react, they are their own person as well. They wake up cranky or in good moods just like us. No two days are ever the same for me!

I don't mean to gang up on you Stan! I have worked full time also in a legal office which was full of deadlines, and I typed up litigations for court, and had to be highly accurate, and make client and sales calls - but, I find I was much less tired at the end of the day than I am with these 3 bambinos by 7pm!

x

 

[Batya33]

9 hours ago, reinventmyself said:

Having been a SAHM, I drank the kool-aid that the man came home from a *long day at work*   After all, it was the model grew up with.  My Dad was a very important man, who came home in his tailored black suit, carrying a black briefcase.  (insert Don Draper)

Mind you, I worked prior to having kids, but not much time at a 40 hour a week job.  Mostly part time jobs.

Fast fwd, I am divorced, working 40hrs and commuting 3 hours a day.  Jokes on me! Even though my job and schedule was pretty demanding it was far less taxing than running a household and raising kids.  

I seriously had those head shaking moments.  Hands down, going work is much easier.  Add in the perks of corporate lunches, coffee breaks, being around other adults while simultaneously relearning my social skills and burning some of my missing brain cells.  

My work was not so much easier but it prepared me for parenthood. Typically I worked way more than 40 hours a week, typically I was on call 24/7, typically I had very unpredictable hours, I often had insomnia from the stress. It was more than worth it to me for the 15 years I did it. 

The top notch experience in my dream career and building a financial nest egg for the future so I knew and know I'm financially comfortable and independent in my own right and have been since the late 90s.  And how I met my husband and really close friends of mine and ours!

Also helped me get back into work with a 7 year gap albeit with a major paycut since lifestyle and hours were much more important with a young child and a more than full time working husband.  But the sleep deprivation, multitasking, high alert, unpredictability all prepared me for parenthood LOL.

[Seraphim]

14 hours ago, Batya33 said:

Oh I just meant I wasn’t physically waddling around pregnant while caring for a little one. Totally not putting myself down. My niece has 3 girls under 7 who we met for the first time last week. Baby is 4 months old. While my son and I were visiting - she lives across the country from us - her mastitis flared up.  Luckily her two older ones are well behaved generally but - wow.  Chills and feverish and alone with 3 kids.
We offered to stay till husband came home but then we’d have missed our last bus back to our hotel. She insisted we leave (felt badly about not being able to drive us) and husband was arriving shortly. She works part time at her kids school and she NEVER does nothing. She’s 34. She does have a part time sitter for baby while she works and her MIL came to stay when her babies were born.  A few weeks each. Her oldest needed major surgery as an infant. 
Bigstan I truly am shocked you’d think a full time parent would have any days with little or nothing to do much less on any regular basis. Sounds like mg husband’s elderly uncle. RIP. When our son was a few weeks old he called me to congratulate.  He raised two sons.

 I told him it was amazing and I also was exhausted. He LAUGHED hysterically that a full time parent could possibly be exhausted or working hard. I hung up smiling at the obvious generational attitude and went back to my couch and box of Ghirardelli truffles and scrolled Instagram shaking my head …..😉

Yup, working is definitely easier than raising kids . You are raising the next generation and to do it right you have to be involved . You also care even after they are grown. Work:.. you don’t give a rat’s behind after retirement and it sure as hell doesn’t care about you 5 seconds after you are out the door . 

[Batya33]

Just now, Seraphim said:

Yup, working is definitely easier than raising kids . You are raising the next generation and to do it right you have to be involved . You also care even after they are grown. Work:.. you don’t give a rat’s behind after retirement and it sure as hell doesn’t care about you 5 seconds after you are out the door . 

My work back then was not easier.  And I didn't have that experience in my line of work but for sure many do.  I got my next job after a 7 year gap in part because several of my former colleagues and my mentor went to bat for me.  But yes that happens!!

[Seraphim]

12 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

My work back then was not easier.  And I didn't have that experience in my line of work but for sure many do.  I got my next job after a 7 year gap in part because several of my former colleagues and my mentor went to bat for me.  But yes that happens!!

Well, I won’t say mine is easier now I have other people’s kids 10 hours a day. Other work yes was far far far less mentally taxing. But raising kids is the hardest job out there . 

[Big Stan]

1 hour ago, Seraphim said:

Well, I won’t say mine is easier now I have other people’s kids 10 hours a day. Other work yes was far far far less mentally taxing. But raising kids is the hardest job out there . 

It's really not.  There are jobs out there significantly harder than raising kids.  Having someone on your operating table whose life is literally in your hands is much harder.  Knowing you have an innocent client but the evidence is stacked against them and you have to figure out the win is harder.  Being at the helm of a company not doing well and having to make hard choices to fire employees you know depend on that job is harder.  

I know plenty of people say raising kids is the hardest job out there but it simply isn't true.  Sure there are unpleasant parts but they aren't hard and they aren't under constant pressure and scrutiny to make the right calls.  When you raise a kid you know what to do, you just impart your values on that kid.  Values you should have already and the better your values the better your kid.  

Thing is, everyone should already be working on their values kid or not.  That's just part of the self improvement journey that's required to participate in society.  Kids are a mirror, they will reflect the values they are shown.  As someone said being a stay at home parent used to be a lot harder, now most if not all of the labor is done for you.  Doing laundry is a matter of switching a few loads and pressing some buttons for example.  Vacuuming is done at my house daily by a robot and Swiffer dusting pads make quick work of even large areas.  Even when you mop you could use a steam mop that gets things clean without you having to bend over.  

My house gets cleaned in a 8 hour period top to bottom by my house keeper.  My house is larger than the average house and with modern tools one person can make it completely clean in 8 hours by themselves.  Kids do not take constant effort once they are 3 or 4.  Beyond 6 or so and they do a lot of their living by themselves.  They get dressed, use the bathroom and take care of feeding themselves 100%.  You still have to cook, but you were going to eat anyways right?  

Once they are 8 or so you should be having them do chores.  So now they are helping to lighten some of the extra load they cause which by this point isn't very much.  Then, by 12 they should be doing most or all of their existing on their own.  My son does his own laundry, is responsible for getting himself up for school, watches the dogs when needed and feeds them when needed and takes care of the cats and their litter boxes.  He will also do other various chores when asked.  

I'm sorry but that isn't anywhere close to my professional life in difficulty or accountability.  There are plenty of jobs with much higher requirements than that for time and mental energy.  The reason why I would rather be at work IS because it's harder.  Sitting home raising kids isn't super fulfilling to me because it's boring.  For the first couple years of life I can see the benefit, but beyond that I don't think it's required to dedicate that sort of effort towards in order to get good results.  It's simply not that hard. 

[Big Stan]

1 hour ago, Batya33 said:

My work back then was not easier.  And I didn't have that experience in my line of work but for sure many do.  I got my next job after a 7 year gap in part because several of my former colleagues and my mentor went to bat for me.  But yes that happens!!

That's because you had a difficult enough job.  You get the right job and it absolutely is not easier than staying home and being a parent.  I am a parent, and I also have a job that's substantially harder.  

[Big Stan]

6 hours ago, Cherylyn said:

@Big Stan The difference between employment vs. full time parenthood is huge IMHO.  At the workplace,  I'm autonomous and can concentrate on doing my job successfully whereas with child rearing,  it's a juggling act to do everything right simultaneously for another life or two in my case.  If comparing one child to two or more,  sure, one child is so easy.  Anyway,  at work,  all I have to do is focus on my responsibilities vs. numerous distractions at the home front while ensuring the safety and health of my very young children.  And, I'm not stuck at home.  We were on-the-go a lot which was tiring and required the patience of a saint.

There were years when I was a SAHM and after harried and frenetically paced weekends with our young family,  my husband would often quip:  "I need to go back to work to catch a break and rest!"  He has a pressure cooker job yet he still found it easier to work than do a million endless crazy tasks for family at home,  during outings,  etc.  It is no wonder child rearing is for the young because it's so taxing,  draining,  mentally and physically exhausting.  To me,  marching off to an office is a relief compared to around-the-clock care for little ones.    

Then you don't have the sort of job I'm talking about.  I'm never "off" of work.  If there is a problem, I get a call.  If even a low level employee doesn't show up for work and we don't have anyone in that position to cover guess who has to go in to work regardless of what I'm doing?  If work doesn't get done it falls on me.  If bills don't get paid it's my fault ultimately.  There are many jobs that are never done, jobs that require you to have the level of accountability that you do for your kids.  

I have adults that work for me sure, and I'm not literally wiping their ass but I am responsible for everything they do.  One of them makes a mistake and it loses money, they don't lose money I do.  One of them burns an account and now I lose a huge customer they are fine.  Not only my mistakes but the mistakes of everyone below me fall on me to correct or prevent.  As I said I find it more rewarding because not knowing the right answers is harder than knowing them and doing the work.  

I came up in the type of jobs you would think of as extremely physically demanding before I made a career shift and went to white collar.  I got my start in an apprenticeship and chasing after kids is nothing compared to spending a day jackhammering concrete or digging holes.  The thing is, as you moved up and started running large commercial construction projects you longed for those days where your only responsibility was sitting on that jackhammer so you could take a rest mentally from the accountability and financial pressure of all your projects.  

Then you move up too far and that option is no longer there.  Many guys wash out of this type of job.  They can't handle it.  These are guys who were excellent at handling the responsibility they had before, but they were 9-5 guys who wanted to be able to put their work down at the end of the day.  At a high enough level that's no longer possible.  

[Seraphim]

28 minutes ago, Big Stan said:

It's really not.  There are jobs out there significantly harder than raising kids.  Having someone on your operating table whose life is literally in your hands is much harder.  Knowing you have an innocent client but the evidence is stacked against them and you have to figure out the win is harder.  Being at the helm of a company not doing well and having to make hard choices to fire employees you know depend on that job is harder.  

I know plenty of people say raising kids is the hardest job out there but it simply isn't true.  Sure there are unpleasant parts but they aren't hard and they aren't under constant pressure and scrutiny to make the right calls.  When you raise a kid you know what to do, you just impart your values on that kid.  Values you should have already and the better your values the better your kid.  

Thing is, everyone should already be working on their values kid or not.  That's just part of the self improvement journey that's required to participate in society.  Kids are a mirror, they will reflect the values they are shown.  As someone said being a stay at home parent used to be a lot harder, now most if not all of the labor is done for you.  Doing laundry is a matter of switching a few loads and pressing some buttons for example.  Vacuuming is done at my house daily by a robot and Swiffer dusting pads make quick work of even large areas.  Even when you mop you could use a steam mop that gets things clean without you having to bend over.  

My house gets cleaned in a 8 hour period top to bottom by my house keeper.  My house is larger than the average house and with modern tools one person can make it completely clean in 8 hours by themselves.  Kids do not take constant effort once they are 3 or 4.  Beyond 6 or so and they do a lot of their living by themselves.  They get dressed, use the bathroom and take care of feeding themselves 100%.  You still have to cook, but you were going to eat anyways right?  

Once they are 8 or so you should be having them do chores.  So now they are helping to lighten some of the extra load they cause which by this point isn't very much.  Then, by 12 they should be doing most or all of their existing on their own.  My son does his own laundry, is responsible for getting himself up for school, watches the dogs when needed and feeds them when needed and takes care of the cats and their litter boxes.  He will also do other various chores when asked.  

I'm sorry but that isn't anywhere close to my professional life in difficulty or accountability.  There are plenty of jobs with much higher requirements than that for time and mental energy.  The reason why I would rather be at work IS because it's harder.  Sitting home raising kids isn't super fulfilling to me because it's boring.  For the first couple years of life I can see the benefit, but beyond that I don't think it's required to dedicate that sort of effort towards in order to get good results.  It's simply not that hard. 

I was medical personal in the military I found raising my disabled child harder . Not that it is complaint it just is. 

[Big Stan]

Just now, Seraphim said:

I was medical personal in the military I found raising my disabled child harder . Not that it is complaint it just is. 

Disabled I could see as being the equivalent of a really hard job.  That I will give you depending on how disabled.  The hard thing is making choices without knowing the outcome or the right answer.  Many times with a disability, especially a mental one, the answers are also not known as in a hard job.  That I see as the equivalent or possibly even worse because it's a job you can't ever put down.  

I will acquiesce to a disabled child being more demanding. 

[Big Stan]

3 hours ago, mylolita said:

I think we can all agree, some jobs are higher in pressure and stress than others, for sure! It's not life and death everyday with children, but when you have someone young at home, like a baby, if you don't watch them while they eat, they could choke and die, or get distracted while they're in the bath - they can drown. You read horrible tales about this, and I nearly choked and died as a kid myself, messing on with my sister piling up sweets and seeing who could fit the most in our mouths. If it hadn't been for my Dad keeping calm and my Mum instantly calling 999, I might not have been here.

We live in a small, coastal town, but most mornings I walk my three kids (1, 3 and 5 years old) the 10 minute walk, which is on a narrow path along the only main and busy road to the school. This is quite stressful. If they run off, or get pushed, or mess on, they could easily be run over. People drive way too fast round there. 

I remember last year, my 3 year old daughter let slip of my hand, I wasn't holding her tight enough, and she ran across a road, and the car had to stop, or she would have gone under. It was literally life and death. She froze in the middle of the road, and I was shaking and in shock. Thank God the driver was an old guy, taking his time. He shook his head at me and cursed, I think he was a shook up as me. Never again! I am absolutely paranoid around busy roads now. It's not so easy as put them all in a pram as well, when you have 3, and my eldest always walks now, and so does my 3 year old pretty much, and then the 1 year old wants to join in. The responsibility is huge.

I often watch a YouTube channel called 'Soft White Underbelly' - all the drug addicts, all the mess ups and hopeless people, they all mostly come from horrendous childhoods where parents were abusive or didn't care or were on drugs themselves. Your childhood shapes your whole life, and is, impossibly important. It's everything. And we are raising the next generation, the people who will pay the next round of tax, be the next politicians, the next police officers, and yes, the next surgeons - so we better do it right! 

I struggle with my moods a lot, and it's not easy for me to put aside my temper some days, and my irritation, and my frustration, and carry on, and have a great day out, and run everything, and then be a wife to my husband when he gets home, and have friends, and be an active part of the community. It ain't easy to keep it all together - well, not for me, anyway!

I am not saying people who work don't have stress, aren't hectic, don't have life or death decisions to make - but they often have a team about them, where as, I think the other stressful thing about being at home all day alone with babies is, it's all down to you. If my kids choke, it's me, that's it. I can call 999 but, I have to do it, no one else is here to defer to. I have had to give my husband life saving CPR and I tell you what, it's not something I ever, ever want to repeat again, but I'd do it, of course.

I'm also not getting paid for my "work" - oh, to cash in on 14 hours 7 days a week, to be able to monetise parenting? Tell me how!!! So the rewards are much different, but much greater, than money. 

People who have highly stressful or risky jobs are normally rewarded with, more time off, or high incomes as well, which I think can balance out the hectic responsibilities. 

My husband who runs his own business and employs a few people often also says, he would give anything to be at home with our 3 full time, but he realises it's tough, and when he's had them for 5 hours straight, I have often thought, where is he? And he's gone to the bedroom, and is conked out napping, flat out, on top of the sheets!

I think feminism has a fault as in, it has trashed the mother in a way - made her silly, useless, and lazy. There is no doubt that my Grandma worked ten times harder than me. More children, and no dish washers, no washing machine, no late night supermarket, none of that! She had to light fires every morning to get the water to heat in a boiler! I am well aware I am privileged and yes, have it easy in so so many ways.

Not trying to down play stressful jobs - I just think, when done solidly for a good amount of time, parenting is testing but amazing, and not always easy. 

Babies change all the time as well. You have one schedule down, and then they grow up a little, drop a nap, diets change, health issues come up. Sleeping issues happen. Discipline is a constant discussion - as they get older, they get naughty in different ways. You can't control how a child is going to react, they are their own person as well. They wake up cranky or in good moods just like us. No two days are ever the same for me!

I don't mean to gang up on you Stan! I have worked full time also in a legal office which was full of deadlines, and I typed up litigations for court, and had to be highly accurate, and make client and sales calls - but, I find I was much less tired at the end of the day than I am with these 3 bambinos by 7pm!

x

 

I bolded parts of your post because that's what I want to address directly.  

First one about your moods.  This is something everyone struggles with, or at least I do too and I will tell you it's just as difficult if not more so to keep your mood in check around employees than it is your kids.  You can get angry or frustrated with your kids occasionally and they will still love you.  Treat your high performing employees poorly and you won't have them anymore. 

Second about having a team to help you.  Tell me you've never worked with people under you without telling me you've never worked with people under you.  Having the team IS THE STRESSFUL PART.  Sure you have them to get work done for you but YOU are accountable for the results.  If they screw up YOU pay for it.  If they don't get it done YOU have to finish it.  If they quit in the middle YOU need to pick it up or delegate it to someone else.  If you delegate it you need to explain it to the person you gave it to and follow up with them to make sure they do it correctly and have time to do with with their other responsibilities.  

It's like telling your 4 year old to cook dinner.  Sure they may try but you're going to need to step in and finish and you really can't blame them when they fail.  You can blame your adult team, but it doesn't do you any good because they aren't held ultimately accountable like you are.  If the company closes they just go out and find another job, you ran a business into the ground.  If you're a high level executive good luck finding another company to work for with that track record. 

You think high income is more rewarding than seeing your own flesh and blood do well?  Both jobs have rewards and the stress and pressure of working an accountable career does come with money but that alone isn't enough to do well at that job.  You have to like doing it.  You have to welcome the responsibility and enjoy the challenge.  Raising my kid wasn't very challenging, working my job is.  The thing you aren't understanding is that at a certain level your job can have the kind of accountability you have with a child, only the choices you are faced with aren't as clear to make.  

[reinventmyself]

2 hours ago, Big Stan said:

My house gets cleaned in a 8 hour period top to bottom by my house keeper.

I have to step away from this one.   

Look, I'm glad you have your life all figured out, but no one here is agreeing with you.  You have strong opinions, but they are only opinions. Not fact. Just because this is your experience, respect that it's not the same as others. You also come off a tad misogynistic.

That and the pointed dating advice from a man who appears to have been married for quite some time.

The really important people I know personally don't feel the need to beat a drum about how important they are. 

And someone with such a demanding job with scores of people relying on them shouldn't have time to post on an advice forum all day.

[mylolita]

At the end of the day - you don't like your job, you can walk away, get a new one.

I don't want to be a Mum one day? No chance. I can never walk away. Unless of course, you are okay with being a neglectful and terrible parent. 

At the end of the day, a job is a job, most people work for money, and that's the long and short of it. Many people take holidays or swap and change jobs and careers throughout their lives when things get tough or don't fit or they need a change. 

Parenting is a completely different thing, and it's not really even technically "work" - it's almost our animalistic instinct in life, and something bigger and with more purpose than a job. It takes more, because you are emotionally involved in a level like no other - in love with your babies, and would die for them. Who would die for their work, or their boss?! It takes a bigger part of you, and once you become a parent, you can't un-parent yourself, even if you leave, you had that life responsibility and if you bail, well, biggest shame on you!

If a surgeon kills someone on the operating table, and I actually know a surgeon (rectal surgery, actually, if we get into it!) and plenty of doctors, if you have followed protocol and dotted the i's and ticked the t's, nothing will happen. It's just "one of those things". If I'm not observing and my baby drowns in the bath tub, it is not "one of those unfortunate things". Not only will I probably go to jail, but it will destroy my life and haunt me for the rest of my time. People commit suicide over accidents like that.

I just don't think you can compare parenting, the responsibility and all consuming emotional and physical and mental nature of it, and your work life, or career.

My husband runs his business and answers phone calls and e-mails at 2am. He deals with people who live in New York, we're here in the UK. It's all consuming. But he can switch off to some extent, but he can never stop being a father!

I think it's just a different league really and not comparable! But I will agree to disagree with you Stan! 

[Big Stan]

8 minutes ago, mylolita said:

At the end of the day - you don't like your job, you can walk away, get a new one.

I don't want to be a Mum one day? No chance. I can never walk away. Unless of course, you are okay with being a neglectful and terrible parent. 

At the end of the day, a job is a job, most people work for money, and that's the long and short of it. Many people take holidays or swap and change jobs and careers throughout their lives when things get tough or don't fit or they need a change. 

Parenting is a completely different thing, and it's not really even technically "work" - it's almost our animalistic instinct in life, and something bigger and with more purpose than a job. It takes more, because you are emotionally involved in a level like no other - in love with your babies, and would die for them. Who would die for their work, or their boss?! It takes a bigger part of you, and once you become a parent, you can't un-parent yourself, even if you leave, you had that life responsibility and if you bail, well, biggest shame on you!

If a surgeon kills someone on the operating table, and I actually know a surgeon (rectal surgery, actually, if we get into it!) and plenty of doctors, if you have followed protocol and dotted the i's and ticked the t's, nothing will happen. It's just "one of those things". If I'm not observing and my baby drowns in the bath tub, it is not "one of those unfortunate things". Not only will I probably go to jail, but it will destroy my life and haunt me for the rest of my time. People commit suicide over accidents like that.

I just don't think you can compare parenting, the responsibility and all consuming emotional and physical and mental nature of it, and your work life, or career.

My husband runs his business and answers phone calls and e-mails at 2am. He deals with people who live in New York, we're here in the UK. It's all consuming. But he can switch off to some extent, but he can never stop being a father!

I think it's just a different league really and not comparable! But I will agree to disagree with you Stan! 

 That’s an unfair comparison. If you do everything right as a mother and your kid dies nothing happens to you either. The difference is it’s EASIER to do everything right as a parent than as a surgeon, at least as far as avoiding severe consequences. 
 

You don’t beat the crap out of your kid, make sure they learn something and make sure they have food and they will most likely turn out okay. It’s easy to say that as a surgeon if you do everything right you aren’t punished but it’s the exact same for a parent.