Are these orange flags?

[smackie9]

If it's a cultural thing, you paying for dates and in the future the possibility of giving her gifts is how she rolls and expects things. She's looking for a provider. IMO if you want more equality in a relationship, you could be dating a person that's not right for you. Don't let her assertive affection cloud your better judgement. 

[tattoobunnie]

For some, I never paid till the 6th date.  And as far as communication goes, usually by month 4, it's more often.  After 3 dates, is not a lot at all to have a regular contact thing going.  A lot is a red flag to me.  I know many here will say to be 50/50, but there are plenty of friends who will say, don't be so cheap, and to make the guy work for it, or he won't be interested.

As far as never asking questions about yourself, that's just weird.  What do you both talk about?  If you are both always having fun and talking a bunch on the date itself, then I'd give it some more time.  If she is holding your hand, that's pretty cool. Focus on having fun.

[jazz_lover]

Conversation flows easily enough. Off the top of my head we've talked about shared interests such as jazz, art, old movies etc. She told me about her experience growing up on a farm and how much she loved gazing up at the stars. She told me about her brother's smoking habit and his doctor girlfriend. How much her grandmother loves Latin jazz. Her memories of her grandfather's rose garden. Her experience living in France for a year. How rude French people can be. She told me what some of the lyrics meant as she speaks Spanish and I don't. I told her a bit about Cuba as the jazz gig was afro-Cuban jazz. I told her a bit about my mum and how she's on the dating apps and always seems to be dating multiple guys at a time. She said my mum sounded like a pro and doesn't know how people date multiple people and how she just likes to focus on one guy. Spas and relaxation. Her plans to do four hours of yoga with a friend the next day. I told her a bit about my baby niece and showed her some photos. We commented about the way the background music at the cafe we went to bounced between 60s and 80s music. We sang along to songs we both recognised. And lots of other things. 

 

 

[mysticcomposer]

You're being used, Jazzman. Sorry. She's a d*** for not at the very least offering to split the payment. There is no excuse for that. You can talk about her not wanting to be 'cheap' or whatever. No. It's BS. There is no excuse why she can't pay her share, like an adult. Just like the rest of us adults have to. Nobody would excuse this behavior from a man, so why excuse it from a woman?

Also seems like a red flag that she won't ask anything about you.

She also seems flaky. She's still into you though, but she's a d***.

She's using you. 

Also, Brazilian music is the best music on the planet.

From one Jazzman to the next: Dump her ass.

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, jazz_lover said:

Conversation flows easily enough. Off the top of my head we've talked about shared interests such as jazz, art, old movies etc. 

Ok. so all you have to do is converse freely (rather than boring interview question/answer style initial dates) and pick less expensive venues and dates and skip buying so many drinks.

No one is using you. You're the one choosing the venues and drinks, not her.  If you're enjoying each other's company getting to know each other and she's enthusiastic and affectionate, what's the beef?

[boltnrun]

I agree, and stop prioritizing texting. Why would words on a tiny screen be preferable to in person interaction?

[Tinydance]

1 hour ago, mysticcomposer said:

You're being used, Jazzman. Sorry. She's a d*** for not at the very least offering to split the payment. There is no excuse for that. You can talk about her not wanting to be 'cheap' or whatever. No. It's BS. There is no excuse why she can't pay her share, like an adult. Just like the rest of us adults have to. Nobody would excuse this behavior from a man, so why excuse it from a woman?

Also seems like a red flag that she won't ask anything about you.

She also seems flaky. She's still into you though, but she's a d***.

She's using you. 

Also, Brazilian music is the best music on the planet.

From one Jazzman to the next: Dump her ass.

Actually I think you're not really understanding that in some countries/cultures it's pretty typical for a guy to pay. Even guys themselves will often think they should pay. I've come across that many times. I'm not saying this because I actually want guys to pay for me. It actually really doesn't matter to me if they paid or didn't. I'm just saying that in some cultures the woman can actually like the guy and not just be using him if he's paying for her.

[boltnrun]

I dated a guy who actually took offense when I offered to pay. He said he felt I was accusing him of being unable to afford to take me out. 

[Kwothe28]

I dont think many of you can understand OP about the pay thing. Many of you are not like that, some of you dated in a different time. So you just cant relate. But some women will just straight up order most expensive stuff on the date and expected you to pay for everything just because they think they deserve that. They see a lavish lifestyle of their girlfriends and influencers on Instagram and Tik tok and think "Why cant I be like that?". 

I mean, look at this example

Quote

'I spent the money on other things... like a Prada bag': Woman reveals she saved $15,600 on groceries in just two years by going on SIX DATES a week and getting men to pay for her food

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-11659543/Woman-reveals-spent-two-years-going-six-dates-week-didnt-buy-GROCERIES.html

And even she offered to split the bill. But would probably nix the ones who would agree to that. Heck, if she had 6 dates a week she probably nixed everyone. In order to get restaurant level food. Now, some of you may say "Yas Queen Slay" or whatever. But all those men? Yeah, they were used. For free food. That is the state of some of the women out there now. So, OPs concern is very valid.

Now granted OP picks them like that. So he should rethink that from that angle. But he doesnt deserve to be used as an entertainment. And to be discarded after they get bored.

I never had a problem with that. In fact I think I always paid for the first date. But my dates never were "lavish" and never was concerned about that. Difference is that I can see past my own experience. Unlike some of you. Its a growing concern in todays dating market. Because lots of young women look up to the woman from the article due to social media. And behave exactly like her.

[Jaunty]

A woman sticking with a traditional, if obsolete dating model is not necessarily "using" anyone.  There are plenty of men who still expect to pay - many who WANT to pay; not necessarily because they are so generous and nice.  Paying and buying gifts is sometimes part of a transactional relationship; in these cases the men are comfortable because they feel a sense of control this way.

Just think of it as a compatibility issue.  If you feel strongly that dating should be "dutch," go out with women who roll that way as well.

[Jaunty]

1 hour ago, Kwothe28 said:

But all those men? Yeah, they were used. For free food. That is the state of some of the women out there now. So, OPs concern is very valid.

 

There have always been women who use men for gifts and dinners.  The old fashioned term was "gold digger."  

Nobody forces a man to pay for anything, though.  If he chooses to do that, he has his motivations for it.  

[tattoobunnie]

Exactly.  I can pay for my own damn meal.  But if I like you, I let you pay for me.  If I don't like you, man, I go dutch or pay for the whole thing myself.

And, I'm not a billion years old. 🤣

[Kwothe28]

11 minutes ago, Jaunty said:

There have always been women who use men for gifts and dinners.  The old fashioned term was "gold digger."  

 

"Gold digger" is more transactional and honest relationship. You know what to expect from a gold digger. Problem is that the lines are so blurred now that a lots of them took that model and ran with it. Look at OPs girl. We cant say that she is a gold digger. Heck she lives in a posh side of London so she maybe even is rich. But she still expects OP to pay for everything. And she probably always will. Because she is thought either by her posh girlfriends or Instagram how she should never pay. And that is a problem for a lot of men out there now. Because they are not dating gold diggers. They are dating women who seem normal but learned how to behave from Instagram influencers.

[Batya33]

1 hour ago, Jaunty said:

There have always been women who use men for gifts and dinners.  The old fashioned term was "gold digger."  

Nobody forces a man to pay for anything, though.  If he chooses to do that, he has his motivations for it.  

I never enjoyed free food with a dud date and like Tattoobunnie I always offered dutch if I knew I didn't want to see him again.  

My mom's friend's son many years ago was on online sites. He was in his 30s. My mom would tell me stories about how he'd contact a woman and ask her to meet and more than once the woman would suggest a really expensive restaurant like at the Four Seasons -he'd say sure, and he'd get taken for a ride.  But obviously he could have said no or countered with a different plan.

Flip side -I mean just one example but I dated someone who told me that he didn't like dining alone, he liked trying new restaurants including fancy ones meant for couples/dates and so he didn't mind paying at all (meaning he knew some women couldn't afford that sort of restaurant).  

And I was once out with a guy for the third or fourth date.  He insisted -again-on a really fancy restaurant. He never let me pay.  I tried but honestly these restaurants were so far out of my pay scale.  Last date-we sit down - hugely fancy restaurant and he suggests a bottle of wine. I tell him- very clearly - I will have at most a half glass -I'm a petite lame-o lightweight -so please do not order a bottle. He did anyway.  He finished most of it on his own.  It was sloppy and gross. 

We'd planned to go to a jazz club after and he wanted to go -I insisted on paying (not inexpensive but I did not want to see him again) and I believe -bad memory -he simply wouldn't let me -meaning he found a way to pay when I was in the ladies room or whatever.  So -there you go.

[jazz_lover]

Yeah she isn't demanding to go to expensive restaurants and she doesn't seem to be a heavy drinker. 

First date we just went to a cafe and an inexpensive wine bar. Second date the jazz club was obviously a bit of a treat but we met at the venue so I didn't buy her dinner beforehand and she only ordered one drink and afterwards she was happy going to a late night cafe. Third date I will do something inexpensive during the day as suggested. And when I eventually get around to taking her out for dinner I will pick a hidden gem that is inexpensive but still good food rather than an instagram restaurant where people just go to be seen and take photos. 

She's several years younger than me and just started her career and London is expensive so I wouldn't expect her to go 50:50. 

 

 

[boltnrun]

I think assigning nefarious character traits to this woman when only the OP has actually met her in person is a bit, shall we say, premature. 

[mysticcomposer]

4 hours ago, jazz_lover said:

Yeah she isn't demanding to go to expensive restaurants and she doesn't seem to be a heavy drinker. 

First date we just went to a cafe and an inexpensive wine bar. Second date the jazz club was obviously a bit of a treat but we met at the venue so I didn't buy her dinner beforehand and she only ordered one drink and afterwards she was happy going to a late night cafe. Third date I will do something inexpensive during the day as suggested. And when I eventually get around to taking her out for dinner I will pick a hidden gem that is inexpensive but still good food rather than an instagram restaurant where people just go to be seen and take photos. 

They may not be expensive places but she is still nevertheless getting free food and/or drinks and/our concerts out of it. 

She refuses to pay. She's using you. It's obvious, Jazzman. Take it from one Jazzman to another.

"She's several years younger than me and just started her career and London is expensive so I wouldn't expect her to go 50:50."

If she can't afford it, she shouldn't go to those places. She should be smarter with her money.

Well, actually, she IS smart with her money. 'Cause she uses people... to get free stuff.

[jazz_lover]

Asked her out this Saturday afternoon suggesting an art gallery. After the usual 18 hour response time she accepted with some enthusiasm "I am free Saturday. The art gallery idea sounds really nice :)"

It will perhaps be $20 for 2 tickets and then maybe $10 for coffee or something in the cafe. 

Sadly the weather isn't warm enough to do a picnic in the park or a botanical gardens or so on. So this is about the cheapest date I can think of that would still be enjoyable for us both and keep us entertained for an afternoon. And for me dating is about creating memories and enjoying experiences together. 

So while I would be paying for everything and providing some entertainment I would also be entertaining myself and doing things I would want to do anyway but would find more enjoyable with her company. And so far she hasn't put any pressure on me and is going along with all my date ideas.

It would be a different matter if she was asking me to take her to fancy restaurants or drinking like a fish knowing the drinks were on me. First date was a coffee date and she accepted that. There are plenty of girls in London who'd refuse a coffee date. In fact I've had girls tell me that I needed to take them out for dinner on the first date (with the obvious implication I'd be paying for it). And the Turkish girl I dated a year ago and mentioned on this site used to starve herself all day and then order half the menu having already told me early on that if I wanted more than friendship I'd have to be the one paying. 

 

 

[Batya33]

4 minutes ago, jazz_lover said:

So this is about the cheapest date I can think of that would still be enjoyable for us both and keep us entertained for an afternoon. And for me dating is about creating memories and enjoying experiences together. 

So to me the point was that she would accept a plan that is not fancy/expensive -not you picking the most inexpensive date you can think of.  And she might want more than coffee if she discovers she is hungry.  Hopefully she'll offer to treat at the cafe -that's how I would do it if I were she as it's a bit awkward to try and treat for gallery tickets. 

 

 

[Batya33]

7 minutes ago, jazz_lover said:

So this is about the cheapest date I can think of that would still be enjoyable for us both and keep us entertained for an afternoon. And for me dating is about creating memories and enjoying experiences together. 

Duplicate

 

 

[SooSad33]

On 3/19/2023 at 9:58 AM, jazz_lover said:

The first is that we've been on a few dates now and she hasn't once offered to split the bill or pay for a round of drinks

Well, if this is bothering you now, hard to say how things will pan out 6 mos from now, IF this is how she is.

If it was me, I would have offered to pay my half in the first date - but yeah, guys often speak up & say don't worry, I'll cover it, lol 😉 .

Maybe, if it continues this way, you TALK to her about this.  Explain you do enjoy going out to do things with her.... BUT, you just can't afford to pay for you both every time. ( as I said, communication is important). 

 

On 3/19/2023 at 9:58 AM, jazz_lover said:

The second is she never asks me any personal questions.

If it's all about her, I say that is an orange flag.  I know a few like this 😕 .  All he ever did was whine or brag.  Yeah, not a fan.

I knew him a good while, he never even asked me when my b-day was!

 

On 3/19/2023 at 9:58 AM, jazz_lover said:

The third is that she is pretty uncommunicative between dates.

As mentioned, have you two had actual voice conversations? Like actually call her vice versa. Communication is important.

 

On 3/19/2023 at 11:24 PM, jazz_lover said:

Agree it feels like she could make a little more effort texting. Perhaps the way to go is to wait until midweek to text her to schedule the next date. 

Is it just you who schedules all your dates?  Is this a norm? Acceptable for you?

 

[jazz_lover]

I'll still need to buy tickets to the exhibition but it would be modest in expense while still being classy and appealing to us both. And agree that if she doesn't have plans later in the evening we can spontaneously have an early dinner or something. 

I schedule all the dates and initiate all the texts. But I quickly figured out she wasn't much of a texter so I have limited texts to arranging the next date. I am OK with that given we've only had a few dates and she's told me she is very busy with work at the moment as her company is arranging a conference this week. And so far I am just inviting her out at weekends. Hopefully over time she will be a bit chattier over text and suggest doing something during the week if she can't wait until the weekend to see me. 

I guess it is worth having a conversation at some point if it is clear she does expect me to pay 100% of the time. I'd like a girlfriend that I can go on holidays with, the occasional nice restaurant or theatre and lots of jazz and who knows maybe one day even live together. But I don't think I would be able to afford all that if I was paying 100% of everything. But it seems premature as right now we are still getting to know each other. 

[boltnrun]

1 minute ago, jazz_lover said:

I'd like a girlfriend that I can go on holidays with, the occasional nice restaurant or theatre and lots of jazz and who knows maybe one day even live together. But I don't think I would be able to afford all that if I was paying 100% of everything.

Definitely be clear about that if you two do begin an exclusive relationship. My brother got engaged and when he mentioned to his fiancee about sharing bills she said "Are you seriously going to charge me rent??" She expected him to pay for everything. He married her anyway and it turned out disastrously, only lasting one year. And that was mainly because she expected him to pay for a lot of expensive extras in addition to paying all household expenses.

This is not to say the woman you're dating is like that. But it's best to be clear. 

[Batya33]

Even though almost all men insisted on paying my thing was by second-third date I was either - leaving the tip/paying for dessert, getting movie tix in advance so they couldn't pay then saying no to reimbursement.  And some men just --- wouldn't let me. So I - would buy a CD they mentioned they wanted, baked cookies, etc. made it clear I wanted to chip in/treat/whatever.  Also I drank very little. At most if I did I'd order one glass of wine, one beer, the end.  I was a cheaper date!!

I do think its more of an issue  when a woman insists on fancy dates.  She doesn't.  And she complimented your idea - understandably so -it's a great idea!

[Kwothe28]

19 minutes ago, jazz_lover said:

I guess it is worth having a conversation at some point if it is clear she does expect me to pay 100% of the time.

I wouldnt raise it as an issue directly with her. That is on you to notice and you did good so far. You would see by next date or after if she would take out wallet or offer for her to buy something. People who would want to share, would offer that. Because they wouldnt want you to pay for everything. Or would at least make you up on other ways. People that wouldnt want to share, would just let you pay. Without pardon. Because they think they deserve that. You can also see the character of the person in that.