Lightning Energy

[Cynder]

I always feel so sad for the SO in these cases.  If I were Kate I would feel threatened too.  (But I am also someone who has been cheated on a lot and dumped for other people a lot, so...) 

To answer your question, I have never been in that exact situation.  But I am currently in a relationship with a married man.  It's a poly relationship though so no one is cheating and he's not sneaking around behind anyone's back. 

How do you know this lightning energy isn't just biological?  Humans are programed to find other humans attractive.  Obviously you must have felt some spark with Kate too otherwise you wouldn't have married her. 

[OldSoulPH]

7 hours ago, redswim30 said:

Taking Melissa completely out of the equation, because she's not really the problem here.  

Your marriage is not in good shape.    A marriage in which one party cannot ever admit they are wrong or take responsibility for their actions, is a marriage that is doomed to fail.  Because this requires ONE person to shoulder every issue themselves, which isn't a real partnership.  So either that person reaches a breaking point and leaves or else takes it, but grows resentful and unhappy and often ends up in an affair. 

Your wife has some severe problems if she's going to start quantifying someone else as "morally corrupt" that is a friend of hers.  Pretty ballsy for someone who can't even be honest with her own husband. 

The problem is your wife doesn't know how to share her real feelings about anything, which is incredibly unhealthy for you both.  Your wife isn't stupid, she is likely aware you and Melissa are crushing on each other, but instead of discussing it openly and honestly, she is treating you like a parent who is scolding their child and even telling you what to think about Melissa.  And she's not saying the right things.   If I noticed my husband getting emotionally invested in someone else- I'd want to know what was not working in our marriage, not start calling other people "evil" as a deflection.

I think you have no choice but to have a serious and HONEST conversation with your wife.  Expect it to be ugly.  IMHO, you should tell her that you need to seek marriage counseling.  If she won't do that, then you need to just lay all your cards on the table.  " I really want to work on your marriage.  Several issues continue to arise that make me fear for the future of our relationship. We need to be able to discuss our feelings openly and honestly.  I feel it would be best to do this together with a third, unbiased party.   I really want you to work on it with me.  But if you will not, then I need to seek individual counseling. But I will not stay stuck in the loop that we are currently in." 

And she what she says.  If she unwilling to budge at all, then you might need to start to consider whether you want this marriage to continue.   Nothing will get better by her burying her head in the sand and calling others names.  

I agree with everything you said here, thank you very much.  It is extremely helpful.

[OldSoulPH]

4 hours ago, Cynder said:

I always feel so sad for the SO in these cases.  If I were Kate I would feel threatened too.  (But I am also someone who has been cheated on a lot and dumped for other people a lot, so...) 

To answer your question, I have never been in that exact situation.  But I am currently in a relationship with a married man.  It's a poly relationship though so no one is cheating and he's not sneaking around behind anyone's back. 

How do you know this lightning energy isn't just biological?  Humans are programed to find other humans attractive.  Obviously you must have felt some spark with Kate too otherwise you wouldn't have married her. 

Thank you very much for sharing your perspective. This lightning energy, could it be biological? To a degree, yes. Melissa is very attractive but so are many other women I have met throughout my life, before and after I was married.  What made Melissa different is how she electrified my soul, a concept that I have difficulty describing with words.

Looking back, yes there was a spark with Kate - a lot of chemistry that eventually turned into passion. But I never experienced that lightning with Kate, as I had no idea that even existed until after we were married.

As others have pointed out, the real problem here is not Melissa herself but other fundamental flaws in my marriage that have to be fixed. In any case, I have always felt terrible for the other feelings that I unintentionally developed, and that is not fair to Kate.  Trying to sort it all out, and the perspectives shared here have helped tremendously.

[OldSoulPH]

5 hours ago, lostandhurt said:

So to answer your question from a man.

  When I was single it seemed not many women were interested in me even though I had plenty of attention I guess but after I became engaged and then married things changed.  I felt like I was getting way more attention than before even though I was married and I was not flirting in the least.  Why I have no idea but I had a couple of very beautiful and exciting women continually try to get close to me but the thing is even though I was very attracted to them physically and intellectually I never came close to being attracted emotionally.  Why?  Because I was promised to someone else and that was a promise I made.  Did I ever think to myself "Where were you when I was single?"  Yes I did but I never forgot the promise.  

  So I never felt like I lost anything by not allowing something between myself and one of these women to grow and I certainly didn't need to mourn it either. Frankly I think you have imagined this into much more than it is because you want it to be more than it is.  Fantasy is tough to beat when you have a day to day real life with your wife.  There are no chores in a fantasy, the sex is always awesome in a fantasy and it is always exciting but in the end it is just a fantasy.

 If your wife will not attend counseling then go without her.  Nothing will motivate her more than knowing you are sitting down telling some stranger all about your marriage and wife without her there to defend herself.  You go a few times and when she asks "How did it go?" Just smile and say "It went really good, I am really starting to get some of the answers I have been looking for"  then just walk away.  It will drive her crazy wondering what is going on in those sessions and if she  persists with questions just invite her to come the next time.

 I wonder if you married Melissa and then met Kate later on if the same thing would happen...

 If you are not happy try to fix it.  If that doesn't work then end the marriage and work on yourself BEFORE dating anyone.

Do the right thing

 Lost

 

You really hit the nail on the head here - I feel like you read my mind and put it into words for me.  I appreciate it very much.

Your first paragraph is exactly what happened to me, not just with Melissa but at least 3 other women.  I never allowed it to grow with anyone other than Melissa, as she was the only one with whom I felt that lightning energy that is so difficult to describe.  It was completely unintentional and unexpected.  Nonetheless, it is possible that I have imagined this into much more than it is. While I don’t know for sure what would have happened if I met Melissa first, there is no guarantee it would have worked out, even with the lightning energy on the table.  However, the possibility of never having a chance with the only woman who gave me that feeling is something I will probably always mourn to some degree.

I may try your strategy when it comes to counseling. Hoping it will lead to something positive.

Thank you again.

[Wiseman2]

This is more about grass is greener, because 1. Your marriage is unhappy and 2. You're not going through the drugery of a bad marriage with Melissa.

There's nothing lightingbolt about this. You seem to be looking at a mirage, something that seems like an escape. It's like imagining an oasis in the desert because you're thirsty.

[Cynder]

35 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

This is more about grass is greener, because 1. Your marriage is unhappy and 2. You're not going through the drugery of a bad marriage with Melissa.

There's nothing lightingbolt about this. You seem to be looking at a mirage, something that seems like an escape. It's like imagining an oasis in the desert because you're thirsty.

Exactly what he said.  

[OldSoulPH]

2 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

This is more about grass is greener, because 1. Your marriage is unhappy and 2. You're not going through the drugery of a bad marriage with Melissa.

There's nothing lightingbolt about this. You seem to be looking at a mirage, something that seems like an escape. It's like imagining an oasis in the desert because you're thirsty.

Thank you for your perspective, much appreciated.

[lostandhurt]

12 hours ago, OldSoulPH said:

I may try your strategy when it comes to counseling. Hoping it will lead to something positive.

I can almost guarantee it will work if your wife always has to be right.  She will not be able to sit by and allow you to tell your side of the story without her there to prove she is right.

 If your lawn was lush and green you wouldn't be interested in someone else's grass would you?  Take the time to get your marriage either repaired or ended in a civil manner, stay single for a while and then see if you can find that lightning in a bottle you seem to want.  This isn't just for you but also for your wife.  You both should be happy right?

 This isn't easy I know, it is easier to sit around and complain or fantasize then actually going to a counselor/therapist and doing the work.  Life is short so put in the hard work and take care of this sooner than later.

Lost

[OldSoulPH]

1 hour ago, lostandhurt said:

I can almost guarantee it will work if your wife always has to be right.  She will not be able to sit by and allow you to tell your side of the story without her there to prove she is right.

 If your lawn was lush and green you wouldn't be interested in someone else's grass would you?  Take the time to get your marriage either repaired or ended in a civil manner, stay single for a while and then see if you can find that lightning in a bottle you seem to want.  This isn't just for you but also for your wife.  You both should be happy right?

 This isn't easy I know, it is easier to sit around and complain or fantasize then actually going to a counselor/therapist and doing the work.  Life is short so put in the hard work and take care of this sooner than later.

Lost

Very well said, thank you again.

[spinstermanquee]

On 12/6/2022 at 1:38 PM, OldSoulPH said:

Very well said, thank you again.

In the bleachers rooting for you, OldSoul!  No matter what that winds up looking like (stay, go, etc.), I hope it serves you both best.  Please grant us all an update if/when you have a chance...  hugs 🙂

[OldSoulPH]

8 hours ago, spinstermanquee said:

In the bleachers rooting for you, OldSoul!  No matter what that winds up looking like (stay, go, etc.), I hope it serves you both best.  Please grant us all an update if/when you have a chance...  hugs 🙂

Thank you so much!  Still sorting through everything and it may be awhile but I definitely will post an update when I have one.

[Mammalyssa]

From a female perspective - I have had men make eye contact with me and then dream up that we had a connection.. 

I can have a night out and chat intensely with someone, and I'm here enjoying the great convo with absolutely no idea that the other has intentions of more than chatting.. and when they make a move I am shocked. Once rejected they'll say but I thought we had a mutual connection/feeling. 

I have learned that almost any interaction.. where a man shows interest in chatting to me, it ends in me feeling disappointed that it was only because they were sexually interested.

I'd like to have a chat with someone nice some time and walk away thinking what a nice person. But no. I believe men think with their penises more frequently than women. 

So what I'm saying is, don't make the assumption that she has the same feeling. She might like you, but it may not be in the way you're fantasizing about. 

Definately comes from a place of disappointment and boredom in your current relationship. 

[OldSoulPH]

16 hours ago, Mammalyssa said:

From a female perspective - I have had men make eye contact with me and then dream up that we had a connection.. 

I can have a night out and chat intensely with someone, and I'm here enjoying the great convo with absolutely no idea that the other has intentions of more than chatting.. and when they make a move I am shocked. Once rejected they'll say but I thought we had a mutual connection/feeling. 

I have learned that almost any interaction.. where a man shows interest in chatting to me, it ends in me feeling disappointed that it was only because they were sexually interested.

I'd like to have a chat with someone nice some time and walk away thinking what a nice person. But no. I believe men think with their penises more frequently than women. 

So what I'm saying is, don't make the assumption that she has the same feeling. She might like you, but it may not be in the way you're fantasizing about. 

Definately comes from a place of disappointment and boredom in your current relationship. 

Thank you for your perspective, very much appreciated.  I am interested to know your thoughts on the more detailed information I share here.

I have always been a guy who could never have a physical relationship with a woman unless emotional intimacy was already established.  I have never understood guys who say they can have emotionless sex.  I am in my late thirties now and I can say I would prefer a romantic walk on the beach, watching a movie, or a heart to heart talk, over sex anytime. Sex will happen when the time is right, and there is no need to rush it.
 

That being said, I can count at least 3 times in my life when I have been the guy you describe.  The only difference is that I wanted a relationship with the woman because I was interested in her as a person, not just to sleep with her.  Unfortunately, once they found out I saw them as more than a friend, I was not only rejected but I lost their friendship altogether, which really upset me.  Did they think I just wanted sex?  I would certainly hope not, but I don’t know for sure.

There are several reasons why I feel it is different with Melissa.  The first is how she acts around me.  I have never seen another woman’s face light up like hers, especially her Duchenne smile, when we meet. Second, about 8 months or so after we first met, my wife Kate jokingly (or maybe not so jokingly) told Melissa in front of me that I have a crush on her. Melissa wasn’t bothered at all, and actually seemed very happy about it.  Third, she frequently attempts to arrange meetings with both my wife and myself in a group setting, and often has asked personal questions that others would typically not ask. And finally, with rare exception, she always responds to my texts very quickly, often within minutes.

Is that enough to conclude she feels the same way about me?  Perhaps not, but from a guy’s perspective, that’s pretty strong evidence.  Platonic maybe? Hard for me to believe.

Nonetheless, Melissa and I have never discussed it as that would be inappropriate because I am married.  But I admit I frequently ponder how she may feel about me and how she has dealt with it knowing I am married.

And yes, you are right - this does come from disappointment in my current relationship.  While I love my wife, she really needs professional help to manage her issues. And it is also very possible a relationship with Melissa would not work out.  
 

Still trying to figure out what I should do. It’s definitely not easy.

 

 Thank you for your time.

[boltnrun]

There's this man named Duane (not his real name) I met years ago. He was involved as a participant in a sports activity that I was also involved in. As time went on we got to know each other better as he frequently came by my workplace to do business with the owner of the company. Duane is married to a lovely woman, Marian. They've been married for many years, happily. I was a relatively newly divorcee when we met.  Marian didn't share the same level of interest Duane and I did in that particular sports activity. Eventually Duane and I got to the point where we'd talk on the phone almost daily, sometimes for an hour or more. He would spend time in my office chatting with me when he came by my workplace. I even traveled with his group a few times for out of town sports events, always as part of a group. Oftentimes Marian didn't go along. And we went to lunch a few times. Sometimes with my boss and sometimes just us.

Anyone who read all that would conclude Duane and I were engaged in an affair or at the very least that there was mutual romantic or sexual interest. My boss's wife was spreading gossip, saying she knew "for a fact" Duane and I were sleeping together.

Not one bit.

We had (and have) zero attraction to one another and don't even secretly fantasize about being together.

Sure, some would call me either a liar or naive. But I'm neither. We just are good friends who "get" one another, but nothing more. 

Oh, and Marian and I are friends too, I've been to their home several times and our kids have played together. I've met Duane's parents and siblings and I've met a couple of Marian's siblings.  But she and I just don't have as much in common as Duane and I do. So we're friends, but Duane and I are closer friends. But again, it truly is a friendship.

I just wanted to give an example of when two people hit it off but it's not because there's romantic or sexual interest.

[MissCanuck]

5 hours ago, OldSoulPH said:

But I admit I frequently ponder how she may feel about me and how she has dealt with it knowing I am married.

Let's imagine for a moment that you knew she felt the same way and struggled the same way you do with these feelings. 

Then what? You are still not single or available to explore these feelings together.  How will it help you to know how she feels, in other words? What practical difference will this make? 

[Wiseman2]

5 hours ago, OldSoulPH said:

I frequently ponder how she may feel about me and how she has dealt with it knowing I am married.

Why not see a therapist privately and confidentiality. You don't need your wife's participation.

Unfortunately you are quite stalled out in this fantasy. So much so that you've reached the point of complete inertia, not doing anything to improve your situation and blaming your wife for not fixing herself or the marriage.

You're further eroding the marriage by being checked out, coasting along and caught up in daydreams.

Melissa is not pondering you at all. She sees you as her friends husband. She has plenty of opportunities with single decent available men. Why would she bother with a friend's husband?

Most of your musings are projections of your fantasy right down to what kind of "special" smile she has for you.

 

[OldSoulPH]

3 hours ago, MissCanuck said:

Let's imagine for a moment that you knew she felt the same way and struggled the same way you do with these feelings. 

Then what? You are still not single or available to explore these feelings together.  How will it help you to know how she feels, in other words? What practical difference will this make? 

I could not have said it better myself.  You are right, it makes no difference whatsoever.  Sometimes I get too caught up in pondering the “what if” scenarios.  At this point it’s just me trying to better understand female psychology to bring some type of clarity on how I should move forward.

[OldSoulPH]

3 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Why not see a therapist privately and confidentiality. You don't need your wife's participation.

Unfortunately you are quite stalled out in this fantasy. So much so that you've reached the point of complete inertia, not doing anything to improve your situation and blaming your wife for not fixing herself or the marriage.

You're further eroding the marriage by being checked out, coasting along and caught up in daydreams.

Melissa is not pondering you at all. She sees you as her friends husband. She has plenty of opportunities with single decent available men. Why would she bother with a friend's husband?

Most of your musings are projections of your fantasy right down to what kind of "special" smile she has for you.

 

Point well taken, thank you.

[OldSoulPH]

9 hours ago, boltnrun said:

There's this man named Duane (not his real name) I met years ago. He was involved as a participant in a sports activity that I was also involved in. As time went on we got to know each other better as he frequently came by my workplace to do business with the owner of the company. Duane is married to a lovely woman, Marian. They've been married for many years, happily. I was a relatively newly divorcee when we met.  Marian didn't share the same level of interest Duane and I did in that particular sports activity. Eventually Duane and I got to the point where we'd talk on the phone almost daily, sometimes for an hour or more. He would spend time in my office chatting with me when he came by my workplace. I even traveled with his group a few times for out of town sports events, always as part of a group. Oftentimes Marian didn't go along. And we went to lunch a few times. Sometimes with my boss and sometimes just us.

Anyone who read all that would conclude Duane and I were engaged in an affair or at the very least that there was mutual romantic or sexual interest. My boss's wife was spreading gossip, saying she knew "for a fact" Duane and I were sleeping together.

Not one bit.

We had (and have) zero attraction to one another and don't even secretly fantasize about being together.

Sure, some would call me either a liar or naive. But I'm neither. We just are good friends who "get" one another, but nothing more. 

Oh, and Marian and I are friends too, I've been to their home several times and our kids have played together. I've met Duane's parents and siblings and I've met a couple of Marian's siblings.  But she and I just don't have as much in common as Duane and I do. So we're friends, but Duane and I are closer friends. But again, it truly is a friendship.

I just wanted to give an example of when two people hit it off but it's not because there's romantic or sexual interest.

Thank you

[MissCanuck]

46 minutes ago, OldSoulPH said:

  At this point it’s just me trying to better understand female psychology to bring some type of clarity on how I should move forward.

That's what I am getting at, though. 

What would it mean to "move forward"? File for separation from your wife? 

[Tinydance]

Look if I'm going to be honest, I think what you "have" with Melissa is largely just a fantasy in your mind. I don't deny that it's very possible you can find Melissa attractive and even have some feelings for her. I know you called it a crush and that's what I would think it is. I doubt you could have a true mutual connection with Melissa because as you said, you've never even spoken to her alone. You only spoke in group settings and your wife was always there too.

Your knowledge of Melissa is actually quite limited because those group situations are the only times you've seen her. I don't think you actually have proof that she likes you too. Wanting to catch up with you and Kate isn't a sign of having feelings for you. Kate is/was her friend and you are her husband. Melissa may have been wanting to invite you along because these were group catch ups and as Kate's husband you were invited along. I think in reality you really have no idea how Melissa feels about you.

It's normal to find someone attractive or get a crush but I think the fact that it persisted so strongly for five years is what's concerning. You don't seem interested in your wife anymore if you are so enamoured with another woman that you've never actually had anything romantic with at all.

I think that's great you're talking to a therapist. You can work through your feelings about this with them. 

The thing is, Melissa is Kate's friend. So even if hypothetically you had an affair with Melissa, as you understand very likely that would be the end of your marriage. I think you need to examine if you actually want your marriage to end? How would you feel if you and Kate were over? If you feel fine about it then just take Melissa out of the equation and you have your answer. 

I think your two options are to divorce Kate or to decide you actually do want to be with her and stick to that decision. 

[Tinydance]

1 hour ago, OldSoulPH said:

I could not have said it better myself.  You are right, it makes no difference whatsoever.  Sometimes I get too caught up in pondering the “what if” scenarios.  At this point it’s just me trying to better understand female psychology to bring some type of clarity on how I should move forward.

Well to be honest I don't really see what you're trying to understand about female psychology. Unless Melissa has contacted you or asked to see you privately, I don't think you actually have any proof that she feels the same way about you. Asking to catch up in a group isn't a sign of anything. 

Your only option to stop wondering "what if" would be to actually tell Melissa how you feel. It's likely though she might not feel the same. But it would have opened a huge can of worms and ruined your relationship with Kate. Nobody wants to hear their husband is in love with their friend. But if you're subconsciously looking for a way out of your marriage then this may be it lol

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, OldSoulPH said:

trying to better understand female psychology to bring some type of clarity on how I should move forward.

Move forward to what exactly? This friend of your wife's is not going to start an affair with you.

[boltnrun]

How would "understanding female psychology" do anything to help your situation?

Understanding your own motivations would actually be helpful. 

Fantasizing about Melissa is a safe way to avoid dealing with reality. And pretending she's as infatuated with you as you think you are with her is soothing. But that's a bandaid. It fixes nothing.

Not to mention, she wouldn't be much of a friend if she's trying to poach her friend's husband, would she? Or do you not care about that? 

Please be honest with your therapist. They can't help you if you try to conceal things in order to make your "side" look better.

[Batya33]

2 hours ago, Tinydance said:

Well to be honest I don't really see what you're trying to understand about female psychology.

I agree.  You're trying to figure out how you can justify acting on your sexual attraction to Melissa.