30 And Never Had A Girlfriend, Too Ugly?

[MysteriousTelephone]

15 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Have you ever heard of "Body Dysmorphic Disorder"? Not that you have this but it's an inordinate obsession with perceived "imperfections". Obviously a good dentist, surgeon, dermatologist, hairstylist etc. could help you out but your debating seems to have you fixed and locked in a corner. You also seem to strive for hookups and using sites such as Tinder in a "Hot-or-Not" type of way. You seem to have a lot going for you, so it's unclear what exactly you are aiming for as far as women.

I have, and it's an interesting topic. I would argue that any man who pursues a goal in the gym has some level of body dysmorphia, as in: if they thought they were 'done' they'd stop going, therefore they have to be never happy with their body in order to continue.

I'm really not trying to shut down people's suggestions, however I would state that throughout my life I have tried various things in terms of hairstyles, clothes etc, I've undertaken a fitness regime to improve my physique. I really have tried all the classic things people suggest, so I am trying here.

I mean, sure, in my early 20s a hookup seemed more attainable than looking for marriage. Even just the validation of being asked, would be nice. Now I'm in my 30s I'm pretty harmonious to the idea that if a woman is looking for a hook-up, there's a new batch of hot 20somethings she could go for as opposed to the 30 year old nobody wants. I would like a relationship, however I acknowledge there must be a physical attraction for that to happen, which seems to be the part I struggle attaining.

[DarkCh0c0]

Okay. Have you had a look at the short video I shared? It talks about owning your face. The dude had done tons of surgery to his face due to some health condition, and yet he didn't let this affect how much people are attracted to him. He gives solutions on what to do about it.

[boltnrun]

So does the fact that you can't explain why tens of thousands of physically unattractive men are able to find girlfriends and wives support your hypothesis that you haven't had a relationship because you're allegedly ugly? Or does it negate it?

You kind of skimmed over the question. I think it's worth some serious consideration. If those men are "ugly" yet have been able to find wives and girlfriends there must be something else those women found attractive. I wonder what that could be? 

And no, they are not all extremely wealthy. I know that's a popular belief.

[DarkCh0c0]

1 hour ago, MysteriousTelephone said:

she referenced me and said "Like him... you know, but only from the neck down". I

And honestly, the group of people you hang out with could be part of the problem. That lady has crossed a line and was beyond rude. I would have called her out on her behaviour and cut her out of my life.

The fact you stay around people who keep hinting at you being ugly speaks volume of who you even are. Your confidence is not as high as you think it is.

[mylolita]

Evening Mysterious!

 

Wow! You’re a conundrum! 
 

I’m sorry to be corny, but along with others, I really doubt it’s got much to do with your looks. We all know, you don’t have to be Tom Cruise to get a wife or a girlfriend (but you do or near to get Nicole Kidman!!!)

 

What’s your set up? I mean, if I can ask, do you own your own home? Have a car? Have a steady job or profession? 
 

If I were to randomly have a guess at what might not be snagging a woman is… maybe you are potentially being a bit too polite? When a guy goes for a girl, even when she says no (and, he must ask normally) successful guys often don’t accept no straight away, turn on their heels and leave. Ever seen the rom coms? It’s almost like, in a sweet and cheeky way, they chip away for a bit. I realise this could be construed as me glorifying some kind of sexual harassment - if she means no it will be obviously a no but, sometimes a little flirting back and forth and c’mon give me one chance let me take you out… can be how it is for most guys! 
 

My Grandad pursued my Grandma for 4 months! He asked her at every dance, for a dance! She gave in. Without his cheeky persistence, I would never have been born!

 

Anyway… I think women can also tell if you are just “so so” about them. When was the last time you were bowled over and knocked off your feet by a woman? It’s hard to take the rejection and be casual about it when you felt like you were looking at the woman of your dreams right there! 
 

I mean, reject all these small theories if they seem way off. I am not advocating pestering women but just, sometimes getting a date takes a bit of nudging and persuasion. There are so many unspoken social cues and reactions. I think flirting and attraction are the most socially nuanced interactions we experience.

 

x

[moodindigo91]

1 hour ago, MysteriousTelephone said:

fairly broad chest & shoulders for my size

1 hour ago, Wiseman2 said:

You seem to have a lot going for you

Random quotes I know, but a broad chest and shoulders = GOOD! 

You do seem to have a lot going for you tbh. You seem pretty intelligent, social, and fit. I agree that a good dentist, hair stylist, even a dude who works at J.Crew with an eye for fashion could probably help you out with some changes in your physical appearance that might help you at least get in the door. 

I also think you should think about how to approach women, and how you would take it from a first date to beyond that with a woman you like. It seems to me like you've been trying hard to meet women and date, but it also seems to me like you've never liked a woman enough to pursue anything serious with her. 

Besides all the stuff I've said already, I think you should cast your net wider, and look for compatible women in different places. Join a more serious dating app than Tinder. Have friends set you up (sorry if this has been suggested already or if you've already tried this). 

[Batya33]

2 hours ago, MysteriousTelephone said:

woman was talking about if she was single what she'd look for, she referenced me and said "Like him... you know, but only from the neck down". I don't think she said it to be malicious, she probably has no idea that I heard it, that was just her opinion.

Right that's why she was single. Because she makes ugly rude comments whether she meant it or not.

[Tinydance]

The thing is women don't really hit on guys in my experience. Whether it be for a hookup or relationship. Usually they wait for guys to come to them. I know guys get put in an awkward situation because they're the ones expected to make the moves. But when you're always making a move, you have a higher chance of getting rejected. That's actually normal though. I've been rejected my fair share too and so have all my friends who actually tried.

Do you have many close female friends? Like, do you hang out with them? Maybe you could go to their events and meet their female friends and things like that. I think the best approach that might work in dating is getting to know a woman a bit first and then asking her out.

I mean, you can still try cold approaching but just in my opinion it doesn't work as well. For example, let's just say I was in a cafe and some guy starting hitting on me. Because he was a complete stranger that I know literally nothing about, I'm not sure that I'd be interested. Whereas if it was a friend of a friend that I got to know first and not just a random, I would be more inclined to go out with him.

I still also think that often when people get together, they actually have a connection first. Like, they're not necessarily on the hunt for a partner but they just meet someone at work/university/church/hobbies, etc. and they begin interacting with that person and realise they actually click really well. That's usually how I met most of my partners. 

I know you might want to bring it back to your looks again, but it may also be that you just haven't met women you really connected with. Sometimes that does happen. That's not to say it'll never happen for you.

One of my friends who I met when he was 36 said to me at the time that he'd had FWB, but he'd never been in a real relationship. Then when he was maybe in his early 40's, he met a woman on online dating. That turned into a serious relationship and they got married. They've only just now had a baby and my friend is 47 - 48 years old! So yes he started late in life but he did actually find someone, got married and had a child.

People's life doesn't necessarily always follow some kind of preconceived path. It's not like in the old days when someone finished school, got married, had kids straight away because that was just expected by society and their parents. 

[MysteriousTelephone]

6 hours ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

Okay. Have you had a look at the short video I shared? It talks about owning your face. The dude had done tons of surgery to his face due to some health condition, and yet he didn't let this affect how much people are attracted to him. He gives solutions on what to do about it.

Sorry bud, I haven't really had time yet, but do fully intend to! It sounds interesting.

6 hours ago, boltnrun said:

So does the fact that you can't explain why tens of thousands of physically unattractive men are able to find girlfriends and wives support your hypothesis that you haven't had a relationship because you're allegedly ugly? Or does it negate it?

You kind of skimmed over the question. I think it's worth some serious consideration. If those men are "ugly" yet have been able to find wives and girlfriends there must be something else those women found attractive. I wonder what that could be? 

And no, they are not all extremely wealthy. I know that's a popular belief.

Again, I really can't answer for how every other male on Planet Earth, including boil covered dwarves and toothless smack addicts, can find themselves partners and I am unable to. Really, you've stumped me, I have no answer for that. All I can do is answer from the experiences I have, in which looks seems to be a definite roadblock. Other than hitting up a social club for the visually impaired, I'm sort of running out of ideas.

Have I answered your question to your satisfaction?

5 hours ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

And honestly, the group of people you hang out with could be part of the problem. That lady has crossed a line and was beyond rude. I would have called her out on her behaviour and cut her out of my life.

The fact you stay around people who keep hinting at you being ugly speaks volume of who you even are. Your confidence is not as high as you think it is.

I mean, why? She wasn't saying it to me, I can't have her for her opinions. We're not especially close friends, but through good friends we've had enough interactions throughout the years. It does serve as a good example that while everyone can be all "Oh don't worry, there's nothing wrong with you!" when asked directly, you never know what's said once you leave the room.

5 hours ago, mylolita said:

What’s your set up? I mean, if I can ask, do you own your own home? Have a car? Have a steady job or profession? 
 

If I were to randomly have a guess at what might not be snagging a woman is… maybe you are potentially being a bit too polite? When a guy goes for a girl, even when she says no (and, he must ask normally) successful guys often don’t accept no straight away, turn on their heels and leave. Ever seen the rom coms? It’s almost like, in a sweet and cheeky way, they chip away for a bit. I realise this could be construed as me glorifying some kind of sexual harassment - if she means no it will be obviously a no but, sometimes a little flirting back and forth and c’mon give me one chance let me take you out… can be how it is for most guys! 
 

My Grandad pursued my Grandma for 4 months! He asked her at every dance, for a dance! She gave in. Without his cheeky persistence, I would never have been born!

 

Anyway… I think women can also tell if you are just “so so” about them. When was the last time you were bowled over and knocked off your feet by a woman? It’s hard to take the rejection and be casual about it when you felt like you were looking at the woman of your dreams right there! 
 

I mean, reject all these small theories if they seem way off. I am not advocating pestering women but just, sometimes getting a date takes a bit of nudging and persuasion. There are so many unspoken social cues and reactions. I think flirting and attraction are the most socially nuanced interactions we experience.

 

x

Hey there! As I laid out in my initial post; I'm renting, been fully employed since I was 18. I've had to re-train over Covid, I'm now on the path to a degree in mechanical engineering. I do not drive.

Thing is, none of those things are remotely obvious. So when I'm in a bar or social situation, even before asking me any of those things, I get shut down. I could be a doctor with a big home and a 12" dong, and they'd never know it.

I would err on the side of caution with the not taking "no" for an answer. I'm aware it's worked for some people, but honestly just hounding a woman who's got no interest in me just sounds like repeatedly hitting my head against the same closed door in hope that I break it down. Having seen the other side of it: a good female friend of mine has a regular group of guys that will message her daily, in hope that she'll go out with them, it just comes off as desperate. I'm not against flirting, and I do think I have a good sense of humour.

5 hours ago, moodindigo91 said:

Random quotes I know, but a broad chest and shoulders = GOOD! 

You do seem to have a lot going for you tbh. You seem pretty intelligent, social, and fit. I agree that a good dentist, hair stylist, even a dude who works at J.Crew with an eye for fashion could probably help you out with some changes in your physical appearance that might help you at least get in the door. 

I also think you should think about how to approach women, and how you would take it from a first date to beyond that with a woman you like. It seems to me like you've been trying hard to meet women and date, but it also seems to me like you've never liked a woman enough to pursue anything serious with her. 

Besides all the stuff I've said already, I think you should cast your net wider, and look for compatible women in different places. Join a more serious dating app than Tinder. Have friends set you up (sorry if this has been suggested already or if you've already tried this). 

I have over the years asked friends to set me up, female friends love to play matchmaker, however when they ask their single friends, so far they have said 'no' before even meeting me.

As for a wider net, I mean, I live in a big city with thousands, I really didn't think I had to move beyond that to find someone who thinks I'm vaguely ok. That's not to say I'm against a commute, just seems much harder to wrangle.

5 hours ago, Batya33 said:

Right that's why she was single. Because she makes ugly rude comments whether she meant it or not.

No, she was there with her partner.

1 hour ago, Tinydance said:

The thing is women don't really hit on guys in my experience. Whether it be for a hookup or relationship. Usually they wait for guys to come to them. I know guys get put in an awkward situation because they're the ones expected to make the moves. But when you're always making a move, you have a higher chance of getting rejected. That's actually normal though. I've been rejected my fair share too and so have all my friends who actually tried.

Do you have many close female friends? Like, do you hang out with them? Maybe you could go to their events and meet their female friends and things like that. I think the best approach that might work in dating is getting to know a woman a bit first and then asking her out.

I mean, you can still try cold approaching but just in my opinion it doesn't work as well. For example, let's just say I was in a cafe and some guy starting hitting on me. Because he was a complete stranger that I know literally nothing about, I'm not sure that I'd be interested. Whereas if it was a friend of a friend that I got to know first and not just a random, I would be more inclined to go out with him.

I still also think that often when people get together, they actually have a connection first. Like, they're not necessarily on the hunt for a partner but they just meet someone at work/university/church/hobbies, etc. and they begin interacting with that person and realise they actually click really well. That's usually how I met most of my partners. 

I know you might want to bring it back to your looks again, but it may also be that you just haven't met women you really connected with. Sometimes that does happen. That's not to say it'll never happen for you.

I'm absolutely not expecting women to hit on me, don't worry. I would say of my close friends, about half are women. I've been to events they have hosted and met their friends, that's no problem. To be fair, a lot of the time their friends are partnered up, that's nobody's fault. A few times I've asked if they could set me up with someone, and to their credit they have tried; the last time was a couple of years ago she had a friend that was looking to date and didn't know me, she had showed a semi interest when my friend described me, but lost interest once she showed her photos. You ask why I bring things back to my looks, I would say it seems to be the biggest hurdle.

Again, between my hobbies, meeting new women and getting to know them is not a problem, I've made some great friends that way, but that's all it's going to be.

[mylolita]

Hey Mysterious!

 

Just throwing suggestions out here now like it‘s the Wild West!

 

Maybe your perception of what is a “No” and closed door from a woman might be off? I say this because when flirting and getting a date it is a back and forth between the species, shall we say! 
 

For example, I’m 32, I’ve been with my husband for 15 years, we have 3 kids together. I met him when I was 18 and he was 27. I’d never had a boyfriend or even kissed anyone! I worked during college on a night at a cocktail bar. As soon as I saw him, honestly, lightening struck. But! This is how his chatting up of me roughly went (he was, drunk in some way as well by the way).

 

Him: “Hey! I love your hair.”

 

Me: “Thanks! Thank you. What can I get you?” 
 

Him: “No… I really like your hair. You‘re beautiful.”

 

Me: I don’t know what to do with myself. I ask him again what he wants. He says rum and Coke.

 

He spends the rest of the night at the other end of the bar only ordering drinks with me and staring at me the whole time. I keep going back into the store room to escape, it’s intense. I’m really attracted to him but I don’t know what to do. I even say to a friend working behind the bar, “Oh my God! You seen that blonde guy? He won’t stop staring!”

 

He comes up again, 5th time.

 

Him: “I’d love to get a drink with you. Do you have Facebook? Can I have your Facebook?”

 

Me: “I don’t have Facebook! I have MySpace! Facebook is for old people 😉”

 

Him: Laughing. “Okay okay, what’s your name? What’s your MySpace? Let me take you out.”

 

We chatted a bit more. He was a drummer in a band. Some jokes flew, more flirting, then I eventually gave him my name and MySpace instead of phone number. When I got home there was this message waiting for me full of romance and again asking for a date.

 

I am curious, at what point in that conversation might you have given up? The crazy thing is I was MAD about him as soon as I laid eyes on him! But, it is a woman’s prerogative to not normally throw herself straight away at a guy and shout from the hills yes!

 

Would you have turned around when I just replied thanks? Or went back into the store room? Would you have stayed till the lights went up? What I am trying to work out is, my husband saw me and was blown over. He said he even knew he wanted to marry me. I know that sounds insanely corny but, I wasn’t just another girl for a hook up, and he had been having plenty plus near that time had also a regular friend with benefits. 
 

There is naturally a back and forth between men and women like that which, if you are maybe easily deterred or very polite, you can actually miss the natural chase and tease chatting someone up involves!

 

x

 

[mylolita]

I just want to also add Mysterious, that it seems to me that you have to go a bit goo goo crazy about a girl to really put yourself on the line for her. 
 

Normally, when my husband was going in for hook ups, he wasn’t too bothered whether he got their number or not, and would never have hung around all night.

 

Have you met a woman yet that really knocked you back? Your efforts might get Luke warm reactions because you yourself are tepid about the woman you’re trying to get a date with? 
 

Just throwing suggestions out! Ignore me if way off bat!

 

x

[Tinydance]

3 hours ago, MysteriousTelephone said:

Sorry bud, I haven't really had time yet, but do fully intend to! It sounds interesting.

Again, I really can't answer for how every other male on Planet Earth, including boil covered dwarves and toothless smack addicts, can find themselves partners and I am unable to. Really, you've stumped me, I have no answer for that. All I can do is answer from the experiences I have, in which looks seems to be a definite roadblock. Other than hitting up a social club for the visually impaired, I'm sort of running out of ideas.

Have I answered your question to your satisfaction?

I mean, why? She wasn't saying it to me, I can't have her for her opinions. We're not especially close friends, but through good friends we've had enough interactions throughout the years. It does serve as a good example that while everyone can be all "Oh don't worry, there's nothing wrong with you!" when asked directly, you never know what's said once you leave the room.

Hey there! As I laid out in my initial post; I'm renting, been fully employed since I was 18. I've had to re-train over Covid, I'm now on the path to a degree in mechanical engineering. I do not drive.

Thing is, none of those things are remotely obvious. So when I'm in a bar or social situation, even before asking me any of those things, I get shut down. I could be a doctor with a big home and a 12" dong, and they'd never know it.

I would err on the side of caution with the not taking "no" for an answer. I'm aware it's worked for some people, but honestly just hounding a woman who's got no interest in me just sounds like repeatedly hitting my head against the same closed door in hope that I break it down. Having seen the other side of it: a good female friend of mine has a regular group of guys that will message her daily, in hope that she'll go out with them, it just comes off as desperate. I'm not against flirting, and I do think I have a good sense of humour.

I have over the years asked friends to set me up, female friends love to play matchmaker, however when they ask their single friends, so far they have said 'no' before even meeting me.

As for a wider net, I mean, I live in a big city with thousands, I really didn't think I had to move beyond that to find someone who thinks I'm vaguely ok. That's not to say I'm against a commute, just seems much harder to wrangle.

No, she was there with her partner.

I'm absolutely not expecting women to hit on me, don't worry. I would say of my close friends, about half are women. I've been to events they have hosted and met their friends, that's no problem. To be fair, a lot of the time their friends are partnered up, that's nobody's fault. A few times I've asked if they could set me up with someone, and to their credit they have tried; the last time was a couple of years ago she had a friend that was looking to date and didn't know me, she had showed a semi interest when my friend described me, but lost interest once she showed her photos. You ask why I bring things back to my looks, I would say it seems to be the biggest hurdle.

Again, between my hobbies, meeting new women and getting to know them is not a problem, I've made some great friends that way, but that's all it's going to be.

OK so let's just say really hypothetically if you're unattractive in the face (not body though). You obviously want to find a girlfriend. So I think you need some kind of new plan. Maybe trying to go for women who aren't attractive themselves? They might be happy you asked them out because they don't really get attention from guys. 

At the end of the day I don't think looks are really number one and you just need to find a woman you get along really well with and you enjoy being with each other. Women want to find someone too, even unattractive women. I'm not saying you should force yourself to be with someone you don't like but maybe try to give as many women a chance as possible.

[Wiseman2]

5 hours ago, MysteriousTelephone said:

 every other male on Planet Earth, including boil covered dwarves and toothless smack addicts, can find themselves partners and I am unable to. 

 I'm now on the path to a degree in mechanical engineering. I do not drive.

You might consider toning down the snark, it's not a good look to imply that everyone else who's a loser gets all the women.

Again, fitness is good, but you claim it's other things which of course can be remedied by a physical evaluation of whatever it is. This includes better dentition, better skin, better facial hair, improvement of any facial structural abnormalities, an optician if you need corrective lenses, a good barber and even getting some stuff done like a manicure or salon treatments for a more refined look.

It's not all about the build. It's not like the 70s movie "Saturday Night Fever", where it's clubs and dancing and  flexing and picking up women .

Not driving/owning a car is a huge red flag for women. So rather than sarcasm and imagined defects, try to work on the real issues.

[mylolita]

10 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

You might consider toning down the snark, it's not a good look to imply that everyone else who's a loser gets all the women.

Not driving/owning a car is a huge red flag for women. So rather than sarcasm and imagined defects, try to work on the real issues.

I actually agree with Wiseman here - a 30 year old male who can’t drive? It is a little odd. And also, most women around this age are looking to settle. That means, a man having a stable, decently paid profession, owning their own home ideally and driving, owning a car.

 

I realise you are saying you don’t even get to the discussing life and what you do stage with women but to nit pick, these things are generally important to women, especially women 30 plus. I don’t want to say Y’know, all women want a millionaire but, just having the basics together makes a massive difference. Still being in full time study at this age might put women who want serious commitment off as well, I realise this will be a fantastic profession once you are finished but sometimes women don’t want a work in progress. It’s quite a harsh and judgemental world out there in the dating game sometimes. I don’t want to sound bleak! These are things that run through a lot of women’s minds is all I am saying Mysterious.

 

x

[Carnatic]

I think the not driving thing depends where you're from and your age.

I don't know where the OP or most of the other posters here are from but I know being able to drive is still seen as a big thing in America, and maybe other big Western countries like Canada or Australia where not driving would really limit your options. I also know that people in the generation before me had a greater expectation to at least learn to drive than people in my generation and after, and that its more common in rural areas where you need a car to get places.

I'm 39 and I live in a small city, not a major metropolitan area but not the country in the UK. My social group, varies in age between 20 and around 45 and maybe only a quarter of us know how to drive.

Even more so the idea of owning a home as being like passing a basic test of adulthood. Anyone who still thinks that these days perhaps hasn't been paying much attention to the news.

[mylolita]

5 minutes ago, Carnatic said:

I think the not driving thing depends where you're from and your age.

I don't know where the OP or most of the other posters here are from but I know being able to drive is still seen as a big thing in America, and maybe other big Western countries like Canada or Australia where not driving would really limit your options. I also know that people in the generation before me had a greater expectation to at least learn to drive than people in my generation and after, and that its more common in rural areas where you need a car to get places.

I'm 39 and I live in a small city, not a major metropolitan area but not the country in the UK. My social group, varies in age between 20 and around 45 and maybe only a quarter of us know how to drive.

It’s an interesting point Carnartic! 

 

I know people living in dense cities where public transport is easy and things are in walking distance means not many people own a car but, the ability to drive and having passed your test is quite, I would say, one of those stepping stones into adulthood. It’s a big life skill, quite essential I would argue for most people. 
 

I remember in college, there was an English professor who was about 45. I was in his class. He got mocked no end because he wouldn’t drive, and when the driving instructor pulled up at the school gates to give him his lessons the poor would get ribbed even more! Most of the 17 year old kids he taught would get in their own cars and drive themselves away from campus. I learnt at 21 and that was seen as quite late in the UK. It’s almost a right of passage into adulthood. As a guy, you can pick a gal up, take her out. Don’t have to wait for a bus or rely on expensive taxis. It’s seen as grown up, self sufficient and forward. Generally, I think. I think also it is more socially acceptable for a woman not to drive, than a man. We are not long out of an era my Grandma was in where women never drove, their husbands did it for them, and they were terrified of driving and cars and it was seen as a “man’s domain”. I always loved my Grandma when I would go visit her because she would say, “You didn’t drive yourself and the kids here did you?! By yourself?! You better leave quick before it gets dark!” 
 

When an adult says they don’t drive or can’t drive the question normally is - why? It’s unusual!

 

x

[Carnatic]

48 minutes ago, mylolita said:

It’s an interesting point Carnartic! 

 

I know people living in dense cities where public transport is easy and things are in walking distance means not many people own a car but, the ability to drive and having passed your test is quite, I would say, one of those stepping stones into adulthood. It’s a big life skill, quite essential I would argue for most people. 
 

I remember in college, there was an English professor who was about 45. I was in his class. He got mocked no end because he wouldn’t drive, and when the driving instructor pulled up at the school gates to give him his lessons the poor would get ribbed even more! Most of the 17 year old kids he taught would get in their own cars and drive themselves away from campus. I learnt at 21 and that was seen as quite late in the UK. It’s almost a right of passage into adulthood. As a guy, you can pick a gal up, take her out. Don’t have to wait for a bus or rely on expensive taxis. It’s seen as grown up, self sufficient and forward. Generally, I think. I think also it is more socially acceptable for a woman not to drive, than a man. We are not long out of an era my Grandma was in where women never drove, their husbands did it for them, and they were terrified of driving and cars and it was seen as a “man’s domain”. I always loved my Grandma when I would go visit her because she would say, “You didn’t drive yourself and the kids here did you?! By yourself?! You better leave quick before it gets dark!” 
 

When an adult says they don’t drive or can’t drive the question normally is - why? It’s unusual!

 

x

Out of interest, how old are you? You're from the UK right?

I won't argue against the idea that driving is a useful skill, and for many people it's essential. In my experience though I've not seen it viewed as an essential part of being an adult. Based on what people I know are like, it's less common for people to just learn to drive as soon as they turn 17, instead they learn to drive when they reach a point in life where driving would be useful... Usually either because a specific career requires it or just to broaden their career options, enable them to apply for jobs that aren't on a bus route. Can't say I've experienced anyone not knowing how to drive being met with raised eyebrows.

Where I grew up, an even smaller town than where I live now, around the turn of the millennium, the majority of my year at school learned how to drive. More of a rural area but still not like the proper countryside. Our friends and the places we liked to go were scattered between three or four small towns so there was good reason to drive. Even then though, very few of us actually owned a car. The college I went to had a student car park which had space for I think maybe a dozen cars, that's all that was needed.

Anyway my point was more that after a couple of people had suggested to the OP that not being able to drive was a big red flag when dating, I wanted to add my experience so it didn't look like a consensus opinion, and say it very much depends on where you live and how old you are.

[Tinydance]

1 hour ago, Carnatic said:

I think the not driving thing depends where you're from and your age.

I don't know where the OP or most of the other posters here are from but I know being able to drive is still seen as a big thing in America, and maybe other big Western countries like Canada or Australia where not driving would really limit your options. I also know that people in the generation before me had a greater expectation to at least learn to drive than people in my generation and after, and that its more common in rural areas where you need a car to get places.

I'm 39 and I live in a small city, not a major metropolitan area but not the country in the UK. My social group, varies in age between 20 and around 45 and maybe only a quarter of us know how to drive.

Even more so the idea of owning a home as being like passing a basic test of adulthood. Anyone who still thinks that these days perhaps hasn't been paying much attention to the news.

Well I live in what you might call a big city in Australia. It's the capital of the whole state. I wouldn't say it's huge by US standards or some other countries like China or India. We have six million people here and it's very urban. Public transport is quite good and a few different forms of it so that's not a problem. Although if you live in the outer suburbs it becomes not as good and not as many train stations around. Usually if you can't walk to a train station within a reasonable time then you also need to wait for a bus. And some buses come only every 20 - 30 minutes or less on weekends.

I'm not that judgemental about someone not driving but I guess it's also because I only got my driver's license at 28. Whereas here it's usually the norm to get your license at 18. Especially back when I was 18 because there wasn't as much public transport around. I had a phobia of driving because when I was learning how to drive, I got into an accident. I actually also didn't mind just always getting public transport and preferred to save money on car expenses like insurance, number plate, petrol, (gas), car servicing, etc.

I got a qualification in social welfare when I was 26. When I searched all the job ads, it said they required you to have a driver's license because there was a lot of outreach work driving to the clients. So it made me realise that if I really wanted to do this work, I had to learn how to drive. My mother was too nervous to teach me and Dad has a bad temper so I only drove with a driving instructor. I couldn't afford that many lessons so after 1.5 years finally went for my driving test and passed!

I guess I don't mind if my partner didn't drive but to be honest I would prefer they made their own way around. So I'd want them to do things like catch public transport and Uber and walk to get to places. At the age of 37 I don't really want to have to pick my partner up from places and give them lifts to places and things like that. Even if someone doesn't drive but I would expect them to find ways to get about. E.g. Check the train and bus timetable in advance and know when to leave and so on. I don't really want to be getting calls like that they missed the bus and I need to go get them lol

[Tinydance]

1 hour ago, mylolita said:

It’s an interesting point Carnartic! 

 

I know people living in dense cities where public transport is easy and things are in walking distance means not many people own a car but, the ability to drive and having passed your test is quite, I would say, one of those stepping stones into adulthood. It’s a big life skill, quite essential I would argue for most people. 
 

I remember in college, there was an English professor who was about 45. I was in his class. He got mocked no end because he wouldn’t drive, and when the driving instructor pulled up at the school gates to give him his lessons the poor would get ribbed even more! Most of the 17 year old kids he taught would get in their own cars and drive themselves away from campus. I learnt at 21 and that was seen as quite late in the UK. It’s almost a right of passage into adulthood. As a guy, you can pick a gal up, take her out. Don’t have to wait for a bus or rely on expensive taxis. It’s seen as grown up, self sufficient and forward. Generally, I think. I think also it is more socially acceptable for a woman not to drive, than a man. We are not long out of an era my Grandma was in where women never drove, their husbands did it for them, and they were terrified of driving and cars and it was seen as a “man’s domain”. I always loved my Grandma when I would go visit her because she would say, “You didn’t drive yourself and the kids here did you?! By yourself?! You better leave quick before it gets dark!” 
 

When an adult says they don’t drive or can’t drive the question normally is - why? It’s unusual!

 

x

OK but we are not in the 1950's! Jus sayin' lol

[Tinydance]

24 minutes ago, Carnatic said:

Out of interest, how old are you? You're from the UK right?

I won't argue against the idea that driving is a useful skill, and for many people it's essential. In my experience though I've not seen it viewed as an essential part of being an adult. Based on what people I know are like, it's less common for people to just learn to drive as soon as they turn 17, instead they learn to drive when they reach a point in life where driving would be useful... Usually either because a specific career requires it or just to broaden their career options, enable them to apply for jobs that aren't on a bus route. Can't say I've experienced anyone not knowing how to drive being met with raised eyebrows.

Where I grew up, an even smaller town than where I live now, around the turn of the millennium, the majority of my year at school learned how to drive. More of a rural area but still not like the proper countryside. Our friends and the places we liked to go were scattered between three or four small towns so there was good reason to drive. Even then though, very few of us actually owned a car. The college I went to had a student car park which had space for I think maybe a dozen cars, that's all that was needed.

Anyway my point was more that after a couple of people had suggested to the OP that not being able to drive was a big red flag when dating, I wanted to add my experience so it didn't look like a consensus opinion, and say it very much depends on where you live and how old you are.

It's not a big red flag to me personally. But as I mentioned, if the person doesn't drive then I would want them to have a mature approach to how they get around. Like, leave the house early enough to catch the train/bus. It would be off putting to me for example if they were going to work but were running late for the train and asked me to drive them instead. I don't mind if it happened once in a while but not too much. As everyone mentioned, the person needs to act like an adult.

[Batya33]

8 hours ago, Tinydance said:

The thing is women don't really hit on guys in my experience. Whether it be for a hookup or relationship. Usually they wait for guys to come to them. I know guys get put in an awkward situation because they're the ones expected to make the moves. But when you're always making a move, you have a higher chance of getting rejected. That's actually normal though. I've been rejected my fair share too and so have all my friends who actually tried.

I didn't hit on guys -with an exception.  I spoke to men, went over to men, constantly when I was dating -I dated men, had close platonic friendships with men (still do- been around 40 years plus of close friendships with men) - I suggested first meets, contacted many men on dating sites, asked men to dance.  I did ask men out but rarely.  When I dated asking men out on dates especially in the beginning stages of dating was not an effective way to find a potentially long term relationship -it was great for a few dates or a fling at times. 

Asking out men was not a big deal to me and I did it but the men I was interested in - the more traditional men who "courted" women, who wanted marriage, family, financial stability, careers - they seemed more comfortable doing most of the asking in the beginning and I saw this time and time again with me, with people I knew, knew of, including the men who "complained" about how hard it was to ask a woman out. 

Women who preferred men who they would have more "control" over -sort of like in their professional lives -who wanted to wear the boss/manager hat in a marriage- they might very well have had success finding long term relationships with men by taking on the traditional male role of asking women out.

I did hit on a guy at Club Med in the mid 90s as a sort of test -I actually did find him attractive, yes I would have dated him in real life but I wanted to see what it was like to cold approach, to flirt, to pursue (we ended up sharing a kiss on the beach later that night -no more than that -and the next day not surprisingly he pursued my roommate -same first name as me lol -who wasn't really into him. All good with me.  He and I actually talked about my approach/pursuit later that night -it was a fun talk.

I think it's ridiculous when women don't "approach" men.  Asking for a first meet is not asking for a date, going over to a man to meet him, maybe flirt, maybe ask him to dance -is a good thing. 

But what's even better is if no approach is needed- if the person who truly wants to find a good match (I don't actually think the OP wants it badly enough - I think he badly wants to be validated that he shouldn't bother because it's easier to do nothing/stay in the negative comfort zone) -but people who are serious should be where like minded singles are or like minded people who can introduce them to singles perhaps.  Where there is no approach it's just people together chatting, meeting, mingling. 

I "approached" my future husband first - 28 years ago this month-we likely wouldn't be married now for practical reasons had I not -but the approach was at a new employee breakfast where we were supposed to greet the new employees, so I greeted him.  Obviously not a "cold" approach and obviously wasn't flirtatious in the least -but started the ball rolling. 

But I cannot imagine if I'd had some silly notion that just because I was a female I should "wait" for him to "approach" me.  I also don't think there should be much "hitting on" by people who are looking for a potentially serious relationship.  It works great for flings of course.  (And I don't think the work and effort of being out there meeting people and networking is worth it just for a few dates or a fling but that's just me). 

 

[Tinydance]

6 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I didn't hit on guys -with an exception.  I spoke to men, went over to men, constantly when I was dating -I dated men, had close platonic friendships with men (still do- been around 40 years plus of close friendships with men) - I suggested first meets, contacted many men on dating sites, asked men to dance.  I did ask men out but rarely.  When I dated asking men out on dates especially in the beginning stages of dating was not an effective way to find a potentially long term relationship -it was great for a few dates or a fling at times. 

Asking out men was not a big deal to me and I did it but the men I was interested in - the more traditional men who "courted" women, who wanted marriage, family, financial stability, careers - they seemed more comfortable doing most of the asking in the beginning and I saw this time and time again with me, with people I knew, knew of, including the men who "complained" about how hard it was to ask a woman out. 

Women who preferred men who they would have more "control" over -sort of like in their professional lives -who wanted to wear the boss/manager hat in a marriage- they might very well have had success finding long term relationships with men by taking on the traditional male role of asking women out.

I did hit on a guy at Club Med in the mid 90s as a sort of test -I actually did find him attractive, yes I would have dated him in real life but I wanted to see what it was like to cold approach, to flirt, to pursue (we ended up sharing a kiss on the beach later that night -no more than that -and the next day not surprisingly he pursued my roommate -same first name as me lol -who wasn't really into him. All good with me.  He and I actually talked about my approach/pursuit later that night -it was a fun talk.

I think it's ridiculous when women don't "approach" men.  Asking for a first meet is not asking for a date, going over to a man to meet him, maybe flirt, maybe ask him to dance -is a good thing. 

But what's even better is if no approach is needed- if the person who truly wants to find a good match (I don't actually think the OP wants it badly enough - I think he badly wants to be validated that he shouldn't bother because it's easier to do nothing/stay in the negative comfort zone) -but people who are serious should be where like minded singles are or like minded people who can introduce them to singles perhaps.  Where there is no approach it's just people together chatting, meeting, mingling. 

I "approached" my future husband first - 28 years ago this month-we likely wouldn't be married now for practical reasons had I not -but the approach was at a new employee breakfast where we were supposed to greet the new employees, so I greeted him.  Obviously not a "cold" approach and obviously wasn't flirtatious in the least -but started the ball rolling. 

But I cannot imagine if I'd had some silly notion that just because I was a female I should "wait" for him to "approach" me.  I also don't think there should be much "hitting on" by people who are looking for a potentially serious relationship.  It works great for flings of course.  (And I don't think the work and effort of being out there meeting people and networking is worth it just for a few dates or a fling but that's just me). 

 

Well I actually asked most of my ex partners out myself. I had also asked out other people who said "no". But most women don't seem to do that unfortunately. I know times are different now so that's good things are changing. When I was in my early 20's I remember my best friend kept going on about how women shouldn't chase guys because it looks desperate and that we should play the game and follow the rules and blah blah blah. 

I totally agree with you though that it's about mingling and getting to know people. Whether it be men approaching women or the other way around. I mean yes good looks help but they don't make a lasting relationship in my opinion unless people have a real connection and are compatible. 

[Batya33]

17 minutes ago, Tinydance said:

Well I actually asked most of my ex partners out myself. I had also asked out other people who said "no". But most women don't seem to do that unfortunately. I know times are different now so that's good things are changing. When I was in my early 20's I remember my best friend kept going on about how women shouldn't chase guys because it looks desperate and that we should play the game and follow the rules and blah blah blah. 

I totally agree with you though that it's about mingling and getting to know people. Whether it be men approaching women or the other way around. I mean yes good looks help but they don't make a lasting relationship in my opinion unless people have a real connection and are compatible. 

I don't think asking out is chasing.  Men who asked me out aren't chasing.  I think chasing is asking someone out more than once after a no or flirting/approaching a person who's indicated lack of interest. 

I think it would be great if more men weren't turned off (despite being flattered) for long term purposes by a woman who did most of the asking.  I had no issues asking men out and hearing no except in rare situations.  

I followed "the rules" about 10 years before it was published in the 1990s.  I'm glad I did -because the main consequence was I never got jaded or cynical about dating other than for a couple of hours or a day here and there over the 24 years I dated. And overall I was treated with respect and like a lady. And treated men with respect and enthusiasm when they asked me out properly and in advance.

The rules were an external way of checking myself when I met someone I clicked with or was really attracted to - sort of like how I eat now - I have certain rules so that I avoid my weaknesses with food and so I can maintain my weight and health - they are external to me -they are not what I feel like doing at the moment - just like with dating -I felt like calling a guy or calling him "again" -

I felt like saying yes to a last minute afterthought "date" but I reminded myself that it wasn't worth it given my long term goals.  I felt like sometimes saying yes to casual hookups or sex - and I never said yes to casual sex.  I felt like settling for less than I was worth because I was so into a guy -but my rules helped me. 

I saw so many of my women friends start to blame guys and feel jaded and cynical because they settled, had casual sex even if they really weren't that into it, told themselves "well I'm a manager at work and I'm so intelligent and successful -it's so silly to wait for a man to ask me out on a date - I am woman hear me roar". 

That worked for you I assume because you were honest with yourself -you were attracted to men who weren't that interested in stepping up to ask women out for whatever reason, who didn't want to take the "risk" who perhaps lived a life that was a bit more passive, or who were so very shy they needed to be taken by the hand and guided in that way. Or who simply weren't looking to date at all, and figured since you were doing the asking and planning -why not -and ultimately found themselves attracted to you and interested in dating especially since at least in the beginning you were doing the asking out.  

My husband was extremely shy  in his 20s so it took him months to ask me out and pep talks from his friends - but I wasn't attracted to men who were so shy that they chose the shyness/fear over asking me out on a date - it was a point of being "too shy" or "too insecure." 

Other women were good with it - the benefit is then you get to be the one who helps draw him out of his shell from the very first step - maybe certain women love that role -it's almost a mothering role at first.  I've seen very happy couples with that dynamic even though it wasn't for me.  Not saying you want that just saying I knew the type of relationship with a man I felt most into, most comfortable with.  

I knew of one situation where a woman who did most of the pursuing of her husband including the proposal I think ended up married to him.  Because it was written about in a major newspaper. Otherwise when I dated (till 2005) I knew of no long term committed serious relationships or marriages that were happy and loving and where the woman did most of the asking out in the beginning.  I did know of short term relationships, hookups, handful of dates and unhappy long term relationships where the man dragged his feet to get married and  the woman wanted it and she'd set up from the beginning this dynamic that she was going to do most of the "work" so the man just sort of went with the flow, the status quo.  

[DarkCh0c0]

3 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Other women were good with it - the benefit is then you get to be the one who helps draw him out of his shell from the very first step - maybe certain women love that role -it's almost a mothering role at first.  I've seen very happy couples with that dynamic even though it wasn't for me.  Not saying you want that just saying I knew the type of relationship with a man I felt most into, most comfortable with. 

Speaking from experience and having read about this topic, I agree. If we ask the men out, we set the pace for the relationship where might have to do some hand holding (or mothering/pushing the man in our or a direction). It can work for some, but it's no longer my thing. He has to have the courage, be attracted enough to me or be tuned to my flirting cues to ask me out. And that is coming from someone like me who was very much "men and women are equal yadayadayada" until life taught me that it's not really that simple... Or equal. And that's okay.

[Batya33]

Just now, DarkCh0c0 said:

Speaking from experience and having read about this topic, I agree. If we ask the men out, we set the pace for the relationship where might have to do some hand holding (or mothering/pushing the man in our or a direction). It can work for some, but it's no longer my thing. He has to have the courage, be attracted enough to me or be tuned to my flirting cues to ask me out. And that is coming from someone like me who was very much "men and women are equal yadayadayada" until life taught me that it's not really that simple... Or equal. And that's okay.

I did want to point out that some people might like the pace of the relationship where they are more in control for whatever reason.  

Many years ago I met a man at a religious service.  He was checking me out and afterwards he motioned to me to come over.  I did.  He was very direct -he wanted to know if he could call me -gave him my number. We were in our 30s.  He called me and asked me out for I think ten days in advance because that was when we were free. A weekday night for dinner. 

Late afternoon that day he calls me and basically wanted me to make the plans - and we lived in a major city, near each other, teeming with restaurants.  I told him I was fine with his choice (especially since if he was paying I wanted to be careful not to choose something too expensive for him- he was an artist). 

So he said "let's meet on the corner of __ and __ at 7pm.  I said to him "I don't meet men on street corners at night  -please call when you've picked a restaurant.  So he did and we met and he mocked me/teased me for not meeting on a street corner.  And told me he was in the men's group that focused on being "a man". So weird.  But thing is -he did pick the restaurant, he did show up and I think I offered to chip in as I knew we were not a match.

Here's the P.S. - about two weeks later he left me a message.  "I have tickets to the opera on Saturday and I'd love for you to join me" -something like that-definitely the opera.  It was obvious he realized - if I want to date this person I need to put in the effort to make an actual plan and not ask her to meet me on a street corner for a first date.  I declined because I wasn't that into him. 

But that's one example of sometimes certain men are used to being asked out, "pursued" , around women who are happy just to hang out and maybe hook up and a little directness, showing your boundaries/standards doesn't hurt. 

For the OP -this is why the cold approach has to be perhaps tempered with circumstances - at a religious service like where I met this guy it was mostly for singles so it was expected to mingle after  I wasn't put off.  I was put off by his way of planning the date and his teasing me and odd comments on the date.