30 And Never Had A Girlfriend, Too Ugly?

[moodindigo91]

Just curious how many women you've actually asked on dates in person? 

[DarkCh0c0]

12 hours ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

How often do you approach women and what's your approach

I agree with @moodindigo91

Can you answer us on our question?

[DarkCh0c0]

13 hours ago, MysteriousTelephone said:

In that: the money is in the comeback. There's no profit in 'fixing' me in one session, they would want me to pay weekly, indefinitely. While I'm sure there are very helpful coaches out there, that sort of business model is certainly open to abuse.

Also, having searched the services typically provided by dating/relationship coaches, they are very geared towards people who have difficulties reading social cues or talking to the opposite sex, which I don't feel applies to me

That's such a negative assumption/generalisation. You have to try 2-3 coaches to know, and a good dating coach will never look to "fix" you. He will help you enhance your great features and help you find ways to connect with others that work better for your specific case. Plus, a lot of them work by session and you get to have a free mini-consultation at first with them. And when I say dating coach, it's not the youtube ones. Forget about these.

7 hours ago, MysteriousTelephone said:

I really can't think of "non-negotiables" as such

Damn, your bar is so low.

What is your vision when you are in a relationship? Do you want marriage? Kids? A supportive partner? Do you want them to share a certain hobby with you? Do they need to be independent? Clean? Cuddly? Religious? Into X politics? Workaholic? Stingy? Kind to other people? Loyal? Think through it.

A lot of women will ask you on a date what you're looking for and if you say "just a relationship to start with", ooff, many will run cause this is a cue you don't know yourself and you are still just shopping around!

[Tinydance]

OK in all honesty, do you really think you're "ugly"? I only ask that because most people are not ugly. I don't see particularly ugly people very often. Just in my opinion most people are average - looking. Of course it's no secret that attractive people have more luck with dating and relationships. I think most people are not hot though, most people are just OK.

I think attraction is subjective and I think usually what attracts someone is also their connection with the person. Most people aren't gorgeous so when people become drawn to each other I'd say it's not like a "love at first sight" but it's more when they actually get to know each other. 

In regards to online dating. I've actually had all my male friends say that it's really hard for them to get matches and messages on dating apps. Some of those male friends are actually quite attractive. For example one of them is very handsome and he's a school teacher. He has a Master's degree and does have hobbies and interests. He got a few matches on online dating but not that many. Mostly he wasn't getting much so he gave up on online dating.

Also even if you're going to use dating apps, I wouldn't use Tinder. Tinder has a reputation as a hookup and very superficial app. I think literally people there only swipe on someone's photos and that's all. I don't think they even read anyone's profile. I'm not sure what dating apps you have where you live but my suggestion is NOT Tinder lol

My other theory is that maybe you could actually be "friend zoning" yourself with women. I mean, I obviously don't know because I don't know you. You said you go to swing dancing and Meetup and all these things and you make friends easily there. So I'm guessing you're talking to everyone there in a friendly way?

The thing is that women don't actually hit on guys that often. Usually they wait for guys to make a move on them first. So if you're just chatting friendly to women there but you don't flirt with them or ask them out, maybe it just passes that window of opportunity and they start seeing you as just a friend. I think in terms of dating you need to act pretty fast. Otherwise that ship will sail and/or other guys will move in on that woman. 

For example, at swing dancing. Do you just dance with the women or do you do things like get their social media and their number? I think you actually have to ask them to go out one-on-one and see what happens. It's OK if it doesn't go anywhere but you need to really start making the effort and actually going on dates.

Finding someone actually is really hard for most people but it's not impossible. I think try to stop being "friends" with all these women and actually start moving into the romance zone. You have to remember that some women aren't that attractive themselves and it's not necessarily that they have guys falling at their feet. Maybe they would like to go on a date with you but they would have no idea you're interested unless you actually asked them out.

[DarkCh0c0]

1 hour ago, Tinydance said:

Also even if you're going to use dating apps, I wouldn't use Tinder. Tinder has a reputation as a hookup and very superficial app.

Totally. A lot of quality people are on other apps due to Tinder's reputation. There are some better ones like Bumble or eHarmony that are paid and have a different audience.

[Carnatic]

2 hours ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

Totally. A lot of quality people are on other apps due to Tinder's reputation. There are some better ones like Bumble or eHarmony that are paid and have a different audience.

You may have a point about Tinder's reputation. However in my experience (I can't speak for the OP but I know what it's like to be considered unattractive and to struggle to meet women who are interested in you) I get occasional matches on there, maybe once or twice per year and even have been on one or two dates.

The other dating apps, nada. Especially Bumble, I feel that the vast majority of women on Bumble are way out of my league, not just in terms of appearance but also just in terms of them being interesting, creative and as I agree with you 'quality'. Never had a thing on Bumble or Hinge.

I'm actually thinking of going speed-dating though, is this something the OP is definitely interested in doing more of or are you soured on the first experience? I did it once before, when I was around 26/27 I think and I didn't get any matches either, but it was a good experience. Guys like me don't typically ever get to actually have face to face contact with women who might be interested in a relationship as we usually never get past that first hurdle of 'I feel nothing physically when I look at you therefore it's not going to happen', so it's good to just have that experience. I will have to travel to a bigger city to do it again but I think it would be worth it.

[kctiger]

This may rub people the wrong way, but it’s hard for me to sit here and read a guy calling himself ugly while putting the majority of the female population on a pedestal. I HATE online dating. From a pure attraction standpoint, about 99% of the women I’ve met up for a date with look nowhere near as attractive as the glamour photos they’ve chose to put on their profile. It’s damn near false advertisement. So this fallacy that an unattractive guy (I don’t like the term ugly) can’t find someone to date him is hard to swallow. There are plenty of unattractive women, or women who deem themselves “ugly” that somehow manage to find dudes to date. I’ve been out of the dating game for a few years, but it is a grind. It sucks at times, no doubt about it. But without organically developed relationships from mutual friends or hobbies, it’s kind of what we’re left with. 

Obviously it is an expectations thing, where most women won’t be direct enough to ask a guy out as they expect they guy to do it. So, as others have already asked, how many women have you directly asked on a date? 

This can be uncomfortable due to fear of rejection, but it’s the world we live in. I am an attractive guy and I assure you I’ve been rejected way more than not. Indirectly asking about how other women feel about you, or using an app to gauge interest based purely on photos isn’t nearly as powerful as just asking a woman out directly.  All it’s really done is validate your own sense of ugliness. 

[Carnatic]

9 hours ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

Damn, your bar is so low.

What is your vision when you are in a relationship? Do you want marriage? Kids? A supportive partner? Do you want them to share a certain hobby with you? Do they need to be independent? Clean? Cuddly? Religious? Into X politics? Workaholic? Stingy? Kind to other people? Loyal? Think through it.

A lot of women will ask you on a date what you're looking for and if you say "just a relationship to start with", ooff, many will run cause this is a cue you don't know yourself and you are still just shopping around!

It's a tricky one this, I understand your point and agree it would be off-putting if someone on a date seemed to not care what they were looking for. It would make me feel like I was only being considered as an option because I happened to come along at the right time (that's happened to me before and led me into an abusive and exploitative relationship so it could even be seen as a red flag).

That said, I try and be open-minded about what I'm looking for. The OP maybe has the same experience that I have, which is that when the fact I can't meet women who are interested in me comes up in conversation or I ask for advice on places like this, one of the first things people always say is 'maybe your standards are too high'. Being unattractive shouldn't be an obstacle to finding love, as many will say but there are just experiences you have which your more average looking friends don't have. I'm pretty open-minded as even when it comes to physical attraction, style stands out for me more than god-given beauty and I seem to find a greater proportion of the women I meet physically attractive than most of the other straight guys I know. I have red-lines along things such as politics or incompatible lifestyles but even then I still get told 'maybe your standards are too high', because people see me and assume that must be the main problem.

It's a fine balance, as you say, if you have no standards at all then your attraction has no value, if you place no boundaries on things like what you both want out of the relationship then you seem like you're just out to sleep with anybody you can... but for most people you don't have people telling you that even your 'standards' such as they are are too high. The OP may well still know what he wants in a relationship and what type of woman he is attracted to, but doesn't feel like he can make any of these 'non-negotiable'.

[Carnatic]

On 10/19/2022 at 3:17 PM, smackie9 said:

We can't tell you what the issue is but those around you can. There must be a few females in your circle that could help you out. They know you better than a bunch of strangers on the net. 

You could also hire a dating coach. They are pretty honest, and will give you the skills to get those dates. 

I've had this suggested on here myself before. What do people think about this advice. I'd worry that female friends I approached to ask might think I was coming on to them.

[DarkCh0c0]

22 minutes ago, Carnatic said:

Being unattractive shouldn't be an obstacle to finding love, as many will say but there are just experiences you have which your more average looking friends don't have.

Aside from physical attraction, another thing that might get the so called average looking men female attention (at least IRL) is confidence.

OP didn't mention how he approaches women. Is he desperate? Smooth? Graceful? Confident? How's the attitude? Posture? Is he taking things too personally? Women LOVE men who are confident in themselves, have a positive attitude, and are courteous. That's something to explore too.

[Carnatic]

7 minutes ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

Aside from physical attraction, another thing that might get the so called average looking men female attention (at least IRL) is confidence.

OP didn't mention how he approaches women. Is he desperate? Smooth? Graceful? Confident? How's the attitude? Posture? Is he taking things too personally? Women LOVE men who are confident in themselves, have a positive attitude, and are courteous. That's something to explore too.

I would guess not confident... but I sympathise. Hard to act confident when you feel like you've nothing to be confident about... though he doesn't say that he feels inadequate in any other way, just looks... so I could be wrong.

[boltnrun]

I don't know, I had a terrible time during high school. Not one date, not one boyfriend. I wasn't even asked to the junior prom and spent that night at home with my mom watching TV. I had a large, misshapen nose and because of that no guys wanted to be seen in public with me (although several of them didn't mind making out with me or even attempting sex when their buddies weren't around). I went to a small private school where everyone knew each other so no boys wanted to risk being seen with me and made fun of. It sucked. 

Despite that I didn't really have low confidence. I was surprised when I got out of high school and got a job and went to college that some guys seemed to like me. I had been forced to develop my personality and intelligence because I apparently didn't have any looks. So I was perceived as fun and smart and outgoing and friendly. I dated during the summer and then met my husband my second year away at college. He didn't seem to mind my giant honker (although I had cosmetic surgery on it a few years after we married).

I guess for whatever reason I still thought (and think still) that I have value and that I am a prize. I won't give myself away to any man who gives me attention. (I'm divorced now if that wasn't clear). I did that a few times after my divorce but I surely won't ever again.

Once I feel like being social again I'll get out there and see how it goes. Either it'll happen or it won't. 

I hope you don't get so discouraged that you give up. My BIL met his wife when he was 35 and they have a wonderful life together.

[DarkCh0c0]

37 minutes ago, Carnatic said:

Hard to act confident when you feel like you've nothing to be confident about.

Then you're not ready to date if you feel this way. You need to feel more like what boltnrun mentioned:

28 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

I guess for whatever reason I still thought (and think still) that I have value and that I am a prize. I won't give myself away to any man who gives me attention.

You need to believe in yourself. One No from a woman is a closer YES from another woman. Cause the goal shouldn't be to just get a date, but more so to find the right person who will value you.

Story time: I had heard of a famous expat figure in my city. I heard so much about him in line of "OMG, Steven created X public speaking events and is leading Y business events!" from other people. I had not met him and didn't know what he looked like. I couldn't care less really. I changed apartments not too long ago and while walking in the neighborhood, some guy approaches me. He tells me we have met briefly at an expat event which I barely recall and then proceeds to give me his number on the street. I thought it was off picking up women on the streets, but whatever. Not my type.

He finds me again in a month while I was walking in my neighborhood, approaches me when I'm busy, and then asks me to hit him up when I get the time. I laugh (HA!) and walk away.

Guess what happens? I pass by him in my area a week later and he's trying to pick up another woman on the street! By look on her face, she was definitely trying to get away from him too!

That guy is the famous public speaker! It wasn't courage nor looks he was lacking. He had some confidence too. But, he was acting desperate and non-classy. He picked wrong locations and within 2 minutes asked for a phone number. I bet he approaches women in other non-appropriate locations too and none of them get back to him.

There are so many ways a guy can go wrong in attracting women... And vice versa. The way you approach a woman is just so key.

[MysteriousTelephone]

17 hours ago, moodindigo91 said:

Just curious how many women you've actually asked on dates in person? 

I mean, it would be worrying if I could give you an exact number, so I'll just go with "a lot" over a 10 year period.

Sometimes it's more direct if the person is actively looking for a partner, other times it's a scenario where I know the other person in a group setting, so will find something we have in common and invite her to do that outside of a group setting in an attempt to get to know each other more.

10 hours ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

That's such a negative assumption/generalisation. You have to try 2-3 coaches to know, and a good dating coach will never look to "fix" you. He will help you enhance your great features and help you find ways to connect with others that work better for your specific case. Plus, a lot of them work by session and you get to have a free mini-consultation at first with them. And when I say dating coach, it's not the youtube ones. Forget about these.

Damn, your bar is so low.

What is your vision when you are in a relationship? Do you want marriage? Kids? A supportive partner? Do you want them to share a certain hobby with you? Do they need to be independent? Clean? Cuddly? Religious? Into X politics? Workaholic? Stingy? Kind to other people? Loyal? Think through it.

A lot of women will ask you on a date what you're looking for and if you say "just a relationship to start with", ooff, many will run cause this is a cue you don't know yourself and you are still just shopping around!

Hang on, now it really sounds like a racket. Now not only do I need to hire a dating coach, it's advised I try at least 3? I mean really, supposing for a second I have a free mini-consultation with this accredited dating coach, surely just a few minutes into the conversation where I'm telling him I'm 30 and never had a girlfriend because women find me unattractive, he will be mentally shopping for a new Audi.

Honestly, women don't tend to ask me that at all. When you get turned away at the literal first hurdle, there's really not much more to it. Just talking casually to someone, they have no idea if I'm looking to marry or hook up, if I'm a doctor or a waiter. At the very first, mostly visual, level, they are not interested.

As for what I want? Again, it's murky because I've never had a relationship to begin with. Sure, a marriage sounds great in theory, but I can't speak for that when I've yet to spend a Christmas with someone. Kids? I'm not against it, but having never been in a stable relationship you may as well ask me if I think I will have a hoverboard, it's just not something I've had to think about. Did you have it all planned out when you were 15?

9 hours ago, Tinydance said:

OK in all honesty, do you really think you're "ugly"? I only ask that because most people are not ugly. I don't see particularly ugly people very often. Just in my opinion most people are average - looking. Of course it's no secret that attractive people have more luck with dating and relationships. I think most people are not hot though, most people are just OK.

I think attraction is subjective and I think usually what attracts someone is also their connection with the person. Most people aren't gorgeous so when people become drawn to each other I'd say it's not like a "love at first sight" but it's more when they actually get to know each other. 

In regards to online dating. I've actually had all my male friends say that it's really hard for them to get matches and messages on dating apps. Some of those male friends are actually quite attractive. For example one of them is very handsome and he's a school teacher. He has a Master's degree and does have hobbies and interests. He got a few matches on online dating but not that many. Mostly he wasn't getting much so he gave up on online dating.

Also even if you're going to use dating apps, I wouldn't use Tinder. Tinder has a reputation as a hookup and very superficial app. I think literally people there only swipe on someone's photos and that's all. I don't think they even read anyone's profile. I'm not sure what dating apps you have where you live but my suggestion is NOT Tinder lol

My other theory is that maybe you could actually be "friend zoning" yourself with women. I mean, I obviously don't know because I don't know you. You said you go to swing dancing and Meetup and all these things and you make friends easily there. So I'm guessing you're talking to everyone there in a friendly way?

The thing is that women don't actually hit on guys that often. Usually they wait for guys to make a move on them first. So if you're just chatting friendly to women there but you don't flirt with them or ask them out, maybe it just passes that window of opportunity and they start seeing you as just a friend. I think in terms of dating you need to act pretty fast. Otherwise that ship will sail and/or other guys will move in on that woman. 

For example, at swing dancing. Do you just dance with the women or do you do things like get their social media and their number? I think you actually have to ask them to go out one-on-one and see what happens. It's OK if it doesn't go anywhere but you need to really start making the effort and actually going on dates.

Finding someone actually is really hard for most people but it's not impossible. I think try to stop being "friends" with all these women and actually start moving into the romance zone. You have to remember that some women aren't that attractive themselves and it's not necessarily that they have guys falling at their feet. Maybe they would like to go on a date with you but they would have no idea you're interested unless you actually asked them out.

Honestly, I don't think I'm ugly, I think I'm in some ballpark of 'normal', don't we all? Sadly, I'm not my own target audience. Be it through in-person, online, speed-dating, friendship groups, only one thing that has remained a universal constant is my face, and I've had zero success with all of them. I know it's not exact science, but also, isn't it?

I do understand that online dating is skewed to be slightly more difficult for men, but I've yet to meet any male in his 20s to get precisely zero matches unless there's something seriously wrong.

Sure, I talk to people at dancing, I will befriend on facebook or ask for numbers if I think there could be something going on. Seriously, the high ratio of single women to single men is so skewed that I've seen every available man get snapped up very quickly. I assure you, I am making the effort.

7 hours ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

Totally. A lot of quality people are on other apps due to Tinder's reputation. There are some better ones like Bumble or eHarmony that are paid and have a different audience.

I mean, you make it sound so 'awful', when you've been living on figurative 'bread and butter' for years, the idea of a hook-up would bring a certain level of validation.

4 hours ago, kctiger said:

This may rub people the wrong way, but it’s hard for me to sit here and read a guy calling himself ugly while putting the majority of the female population on a pedestal. I HATE online dating. From a pure attraction standpoint, about 99% of the women I’ve met up for a date with look nowhere near as attractive as the glamour photos they’ve chose to put on their profile. It’s damn near false advertisement. So this fallacy that an unattractive guy (I don’t like the term ugly) can’t find someone to date him is hard to swallow. There are plenty of unattractive women, or women who deem themselves “ugly” that somehow manage to find dudes to date. I’ve been out of the dating game for a few years, but it is a grind. It sucks at times, no doubt about it. But without organically developed relationships from mutual friends or hobbies, it’s kind of what we’re left with. 

Obviously it is an expectations thing, where most women won’t be direct enough to ask a guy out as they expect they guy to do it. So, as others have already asked, how many women have you directly asked on a date? 

This can be uncomfortable due to fear of rejection, but it’s the world we live in. I am an attractive guy and I assure you I’ve been rejected way more than not. Indirectly asking about how other women feel about you, or using an app to gauge interest based purely on photos isn’t nearly as powerful as just asking a woman out directly.  All it’s really done is validate your own sense of ugliness. 

Not putting the female population on a pedestal at all, my friend. You're assuming that I haven't asked anyone out, which is untrue.

32 minutes ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

Aside from physical attraction, another thing that might get the so called average looking men female attention (at least IRL) is confidence.

OP didn't mention how he approaches women. Is he desperate? Smooth? Graceful? Confident? How's the attitude? Posture? Is he taking things too personally? Women LOVE men who are confident in themselves, have a positive attitude, and are courteous. That's something to explore too.

I mean, I didn't give you a play-by-play in my essay of a post, but I did repeatedly mention that confidence wasn't an issue, you may have missed that part.

[Batya33]

3 minutes ago, MysteriousTelephone said:

As for what I want? Again, it's murky because I've never had a relationship to begin with. Sure, a marriage sounds great in theory, but I can't speak for that when I've yet to spend a Christmas with someone. Kids? I'm not against it, but having never been in a stable relationship you may as well ask me if I think I will have a hoverboard, it's just not something I've had to think about. Did you have it all planned out when you were 15?

I knew by age 15 the latest I wanted marriage and family.  My son is 13 and talks about whether he wants to marry or not.  I know of people who decide much later and many people who've never had a serious relationship or been around kids much but know they want that for themselves when the timing is right.  When I was single-- 11 years before I married and became a mom - I started saving my $ because I knew I'd want to be a stay at home mom for at least a couple of years. 

I was single but figured if I met a man who didn't make enough $ to provide for us without my income at least I could contribute to the family income from my savings.  I started saving after paying off my grad school loans.  So -yes- even though I'd never had kids or been married I planned.  I mean didn't you plan on your career before knowing for sure if it would be what was the right fit, etc?  Marriage and family were two of my top three goals -the third being my career.  

[DarkCh0c0]

9 minutes ago, MysteriousTelephone said:

Now not only do I need to hire a dating coach, it's advised I try at least 3? I mean really, supposing for a second I have a free mini-consultation with this accredited dating coach, surely just a few minutes into the conversation where I'm telling him I'm 30 and never had a girlfriend because women find me unattractive, he will be mentally shopping for a new Audi

When I say try, I mean try 2 to 3 on the free consultation side. It took me exactly 3 tries to find the right coach for me in a different field. Each coach had his own technique and I wanted to work with one with whom I felt confident that I'll be moving forward. Same thing sometimes with therapists. You need to try 1-3 to find the right one.

 Why not give it a shot since it's free? What do you have to lose? Their feedback would be much more tailored and helpful than the one we're giving you here.

[Tinydance]

Also I know this might not be helpful but sometimes I feel like dating can also be due to luck. For example, as we know there are thousands of people who put themselves out there on online dating. Some people find a partner there and some never do.

For example, I'm 37 and I did online dating on and off since I was 18 years old. I did get dates and sometimes dated people a few weeks or months but it never turned into a serious relationship.

Whereas my best friend used online dating back in 2008 when apps didn't even exist. She was actually in a four year affair with a guy who had a girlfriend the whole time and he was emotionally abusive. She nearly didn't even come on a date with this guy from online dating. She almost cancelled at the last minute but she still went. Before that she had only been on dates with about 4 - 5 guys from online.

Anyway to cut a long story short, there was instant chemistry with that online guy! They have now been together for 14 years, married for 10 and have two kids. Basically she found him as soon as she went on online dating! And it doesn't seem fair because for four years she was helping a guy cheat on his girlfriend, who she knew about the whole time. I don't think there's necessarily any logic to it but maybe things just happen randomly.

Though there is that saying: "you have to be in it to win it". So in other words you actually do have to put yourself out there in the first place.

[waffle]

5 hours ago, kctiger said:

I HATE online dating. From a pure attraction standpoint, about 99% of the women I’ve met up for a date with look nowhere near as attractive as the glamour photos they’ve chose to put on their profile. It’s damn near false advertisement.

Women hate dating apps too, for the same reason basically.  It's nothing more than a Vegas Hooker Lineup; women selling their looks and hoping to be chosen, and men evaluating to see if the women are F-able and then whining and crying if the women aren't the supermodels they're entitled to stick their **** into.  It's dehumanizing and no woman I know enjoys being treated like a piece of meat.

This is why men who have no luck online assume it's because they're not good-looking enough, because that's the only yardstick they use to measure women by and evaluate them, so they figure the same is being done to them.  I suppose that explanation works because to want to know the REAL reason they're not having any luck might mean making some changes, so just chalk it up to looks and say "I can't do anything about that" and . . . nothing changes.

[Tinydance]

2 minutes ago, waffle said:

Women hate dating apps too, for the same reason basically.  It's nothing more than a Vegas Hooker Lineup; women selling their looks and hoping to be chosen, and men evaluating to see if the women are F-able and then whining and crying if the women aren't the supermodels they're entitled to stick their **** into.  It's dehumanizing and no woman I know enjoys being treated like a piece of meat.

This is why men who have no luck online assume it's because they're not good-looking enough, because that's the only yardstick they use to measure women by and evaluate them, so they figure the same is being done to them.  I suppose that explanation works because to want to know the REAL reason they're not having any luck might mean making some changes, so just chalk it up to looks and say "I can't do anything about that" and . . . nothing changes.

I kind of agree with this. A fair bit of my online dating experience was getting guys that only wanted hook up. So it's true, I did get a lot of matches and messages but not as many people who actually wanted a serious relationship. I actually wasn't fond of online dating at all because in like 20 years I'd never found an actual serious relationship there. I knew that some people did but because I hadn't had that experience, I was just very sceptical.

[moodindigo91]

In some ways, it seems like you're being a little lax about it. You say you ask women out, etc., but how does it go? What are they saying? What do you do after they respond? Have you ever actually been interested in a woman enough to like pursue her and begin a long-term relationship? To me, it sounds like you meet a woman and you're kinda like "oh this seems decent" and then maybe you make a move that is rebuffed at first and then you're like *shoulder shrug* I guess I'm just ugly. And then you sit down and write essays about how no one will date you. I think it probably either has to do with the way you're going about it or the way you're presenting yourself. It's hard to tell because you seem to have an excuse or reason for everything and in the end it all points to you just giving up. I've seen even the subjectively ugliest people and people with the worst personalities find partners.

[Tinydance]

18 minutes ago, MysteriousTelephone said:

I mean, it would be worrying if I could give you an exact number, so I'll just go with "a lot" over a 10 year period.

Sometimes it's more direct if the person is actively looking for a partner, other times it's a scenario where I know the other person in a group setting, so will find something we have in common and invite her to do that outside of a group setting in an attempt to get to know each other more.

Hang on, now it really sounds like a racket. Now not only do I need to hire a dating coach, it's advised I try at least 3? I mean really, supposing for a second I have a free mini-consultation with this accredited dating coach, surely just a few minutes into the conversation where I'm telling him I'm 30 and never had a girlfriend because women find me unattractive, he will be mentally shopping for a new Audi.

Honestly, women don't tend to ask me that at all. When you get turned away at the literal first hurdle, there's really not much more to it. Just talking casually to someone, they have no idea if I'm looking to marry or hook up, if I'm a doctor or a waiter. At the very first, mostly visual, level, they are not interested.

As for what I want? Again, it's murky because I've never had a relationship to begin with. Sure, a marriage sounds great in theory, but I can't speak for that when I've yet to spend a Christmas with someone. Kids? I'm not against it, but having never been in a stable relationship you may as well ask me if I think I will have a hoverboard, it's just not something I've had to think about. Did you have it all planned out when you were 15?

Honestly, I don't think I'm ugly, I think I'm in some ballpark of 'normal', don't we all? Sadly, I'm not my own target audience. Be it through in-person, online, speed-dating, friendship groups, only one thing that has remained a universal constant is my face, and I've had zero success with all of them. I know it's not exact science, but also, isn't it?

I do understand that online dating is skewed to be slightly more difficult for men, but I've yet to meet any male in his 20s to get precisely zero matches unless there's something seriously wrong.

Sure, I talk to people at dancing, I will befriend on facebook or ask for numbers if I think there could be something going on. Seriously, the high ratio of single women to single men is so skewed that I've seen every available man get snapped up very quickly. I assure you, I am making the effort.

I mean, you make it sound so 'awful', when you've been living on figurative 'bread and butter' for years, the idea of a hook-up would bring a certain level of validation.

Not putting the female population on a pedestal at all, my friend. You're assuming that I haven't asked anyone out, which is untrue.

I mean, I didn't give you a play-by-play in my essay of a post, but I did repeatedly mention that confidence wasn't an issue, you may have missed that part.

Look I could be wrong because I obviously have no idea what you look like. But I just get this sense that you're not ugly and this is not necessarily looks related. Also I've seen plenty of people who are average to below average find someone.

I feel like yeah maybe there's something going on that's getting in your way. It might be good to get some feedback from people that know you and yeah maybe a dating coach to get to the root of it. There are actually some people that tend to end up in the friend zone because they just always put themselves in there somehow. 

I think if you're always just acting friendly with the opposite gender like their buddy, maybe they end up seeing you that way. There is that saying: "men and women can't be friends". Meaning usually there's some kind of flirtation coming from one side. If there's no flirtation coming from you then that's how you probably end up just being a friend.

Also just in your post to be honest you don't sound very confident or sure of yourself. You say you're confident but you basically called yourself ugly. I reckon you just think you're acting confident but maybe you actually aren't. You're acting friendly but friendly and confident aren't necessarily the same thing.

Confident people don't call themselves ugly and say "my face is the problem". They like themselves and how they look, even if they're only quite average. 

[DarkCh0c0]

2 minutes ago, Tinydance said:

Confident people don't call themselves ugly and say "my face is the problem". They like themselves and how they look, even if they're only quite average. 

🏆 Touché.

[MysteriousTelephone]

36 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I knew by age 15 the latest I wanted marriage and family.  My son is 13 and talks about whether he wants to marry or not.  I know of people who decide much later and many people who've never had a serious relationship or been around kids much but know they want that for themselves when the timing is right.  When I was single-- 11 years before I married and became a mom - I started saving my $ because I knew I'd want to be a stay at home mom for at least a couple of years. 

I was single but figured if I met a man who didn't make enough $ to provide for us without my income at least I could contribute to the family income from my savings.  I started saving after paying off my grad school loans.  So -yes- even though I'd never had kids or been married I planned.  I mean didn't you plan on your career before knowing for sure if it would be what was the right fit, etc?  Marriage and family were two of my top three goals -the third being my career.  

That's great, and I am 110% glad for you that you knew early on what you wanted, but that's not the experience for me.

33 minutes ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

When I say try, I mean try 2 to 3 on the free consultation side. It took me exactly 3 tries to find the right coach for me in a different field. Each coach had his own technique and I wanted to work with one with whom I felt confident that I'll be moving forward. Same thing sometimes with therapists. You need to try 1-3 to find the right one.

 Why not give it a shot since it's free? What do you have to lose? Their feedback would be much more tailored and helpful than the one we're giving you here.

Sure, but each of these people runs a business, and their business is in keeping me. They would of course promise wonderful things, but I would need regular sessions to get anywhere. Honestly it just feels like a scam. 

22 minutes ago, moodindigo91 said:

In some ways, it seems like you're being a little lax about it. You say you ask women out, etc., but how does it go? What are they saying? What do you do after they respond? Have you ever actually been interested in a woman enough to like pursue her and begin a long-term relationship? To me, it sounds like you meet a woman and you're kinda like "oh this seems decent" and then maybe you make a move that is rebuffed at first and then you're like *shoulder shrug* I guess I'm just ugly. And then you sit down and write essays about how no one will date you. I think it probably either has to do with the way you're going about it or the way you're presenting yourself. It's hard to tell because you seem to have an excuse or reason for everything and in the end it all points to you just giving up. I've seen even the subjectively ugliest people and people with the worst personalities find partners.

Are you really asking for a word-for-word account of every women I've approached? I'm talking over a 10 year period, so my answers will be a little more 'general'. Some will respond in different ways to different questions. When talking to women who I've met through other friends, I've asked them out, only to be hit with the "sorry I'm not looking for a relationship" line, only to see them a couple weeks later on the arm of a handsome man. Other times it's just generally brushed off. Other times they are mysteriously busy. A few months ago started a conversation with a woman and she was physically repulsed at the sight of me, and just sort of buried her head in her phone until I began to talk to someone else.

Nope, I'm not just out there hitting on anything with a pulse, sometimes I do genuinely just enjoy being friends.

17 minutes ago, Tinydance said:

Look I could be wrong because I obviously have no idea what you look like. But I just get this sense that you're not ugly and this is not necessarily looks related. Also I've seen plenty of people who are average to below average find someone.

I feel like yeah maybe there's something going on that's getting in your way. It might be good to get some feedback from people that know you and yeah maybe a dating coach to get to the root of it. There are actually some people that tend to end up in the friend zone because they just always put themselves in there somehow. 

I think if you're always just acting friendly with the opposite gender like their buddy, maybe they end up seeing you that way. There is that saying: "men and women can't be friends". Meaning usually there's some kind of flirtation coming from one side. If there's no flirtation coming from you then that's how you probably end up just being a friend.

Also just in your post to be honest you don't sound very confident or sure of yourself. You say you're confident but you basically called yourself ugly. I reckon you just think you're acting confident but maybe you actually aren't. You're acting friendly but friendly and confident aren't necessarily the same thing.

Confident people don't call themselves ugly and say "my face is the problem". They like themselves and how they look, even if they're only quite average. 

I mean, this is just my lived experience, I can only tell you what I know.

Like I said, I don't think I'm terrible looking, that's just the data I'm extrapolating from 30 years of never having anybody interested in me. When my face is the first thing people see, even knowing literally nothing about me, will turn me down on, and other people with 'game' can't get a date using photos of me, it does seem pretty 'open and shut', your honour.

Supposing for a second I'm a decent looking, funny, intelligent, kind person, I would absolutely not be in this situation. I know verifiably that the last three are true, but the first is difficult to be objective about when it's yourself. Like I said, people do treat you different when you're ugly, it's just a different world out there.

[boltnrun]

Have you ever seen a physically unattractive man who has a wife or a girlfriend? 

How would you presume he overcame his lack of good looks?

Serious question, I'm not trying to be funny or sarcastic.

[moodindigo91]

18 minutes ago, MysteriousTelephone said:

Are you really asking for a word-for-word account of every women I've approached?

LOL no but your responses really do go to my point that you have a reason/excuse/response for everything. We are trying to get to the bottom of things and give you some usable advice and you're just like, "I've tried it all and nothing has worked or will ever work, why are you asking me all these questions" 

All I can say is that, again, I've seen both subjectively ugly people find partners and average people with subjectively bad personalities find partners. You seem to have a decent personality. If you're really "ugly" that shouldn't stop you from having partners. It is something about what you're doing. How you're presenting yourself.

How do you typically show women you're interested in them beyond just being friends?