"Falling in Love" according to an evolutionary psychologist:

[Krankor]

So, I've been listening to a podcast called "Beat Your Genes" by Dr. Doug Lisle, a clinical psychologist who approaches psychology from a biological/evolutionary perspective. I have a great deal of respect for him as his book "The Pleasure Trap" is what helped me lose weight and really get healthy.

 

Anyway, he was describing the process that generally happens when two people "fall in love" and begin a satisfying relationship, and I'm going to paraphrase. Basically, both partners have to think they are getting a "good deal." Men have to think the woman has good genes to invest heavily in her (he talks about true "pair-bonding" strategy vs. "short-term mating" strategy) while women generally look for both good genes and the ability to provide resources. This was shaped by millions of years of evolution.

 

So, let's say you have a situation in which there is one man who's a "6" and five women who are also "6's". Now this is somewhat subjective, obviously, but there is only so much wiggle room. Nobody thinks a "5" for example is a "1" and nobody thinks she is a "10." Plenty of studies bear this out. About 80% think she's a "5", 20% will rate her "4", and 20% will rate her a "6".

 

So anyway, we have our room full of 6's. The five women will look at him. Three will see another 6: marginally interested, maybe--let's see what he's like. One will see a 5--nah. But one will see a 7. Now SHE'S quite interested. Our guy looks the five women; he sees three 6's, a 5, and a 7. What if the one he sees as the 5 happens to be the one who thinks he's a 7? He may go for short-term mating strategy, which will likely leave her heart-broken. Probably the same for any of the 6's.

 

He'll be most interested in the one he sees as the 7. But what if she happens to see him as a 5? Forget it; not happening.

 

But what if it's that rare thing in which the one he sees as the 7 also sees him as a 7? Now, that's where the magic happens. They'll both believe that they are getting a great deal genetically, will probably start talking, and can easily end up falling in love.

 

Now, this may sound oversimplified, but I think it's usually true.

[SherrySher]

Really interesting. "Women generally look for someone to provide resources."

 

This is also what I try to explain on this site all the time though, many pair up thinking they are getting the good deal and think they are both 7's, that's the initial lust and infatuation, however down the road when they truly find out more about the person they realize that this person is more like a 5.

 

I also read an article on how people choose their partners by facial characteristics. There is some truth to that as well.

[Krankor]

Really interesting. "Women generally look for someone to provide resources."

 

This is also what I try to explain on this site all the time though, many pair up thinking they are getting the good deal and think they are both 7's, that's the initial lust and infatuation, however down the road when they truly find out more about the person they realize that this person is more like a 5.

 

I also read an article on how people choose their partners by facial characteristics. There is some truth to that as well.

I think he means both financial but also signs he'd be a good father. He talks about how if a man has pictures of him with a dog on dating sites women generally find him more attractive.

 

He also talks about how when people both think they are getting a "good deal" they will ignore all kinds of red flags, which I think we've all experienced in our own lives. But he talks about how our brains are always running a "cost benefit" analysis and when the costs of a relationship start getting greater than the benefits is when you stop thinking you're getting such a great deal.

[SherrySher]

our brains are always running a "cost benefit" analysis and when the costs of a relationship start getting greater than the benefits is when you stop thinking you're getting such a great deal.

 

Yep, makes perfect sense.

 

Can you tell me where I can listen to this podcast?

[Krankor]

Yep, makes perfect sense.

 

Can you tell me where I can listen to this podcast?

I have an app on my phone called "Castbox" where I listen to it, but I know it's also on iTunes and Sticher. If you type "Beat Your Genes podcast" into a search engine you should be able to find it.

[SherrySher]

So would you say that men have more of a drive to procreate and women are looking more for love but also procreation? Does this podcast shed any light on that?

[Krankor]

So would you say that men have more of a drive to procreate and women are looking more for love but also procreation? Does this podcast shed any light on that?

I think so. He talks about how a woman in love will almost never wander, but how a man can be completely in love but will still want to wander "to the other side of the hill" here and there. Women want to procreate as we all are driven to reproduce our genes but pregnancy is FAR costlier for women than for men. Because being pregnant and then having an infant/toddler to take care of makes a woman very vulnerable she wants to know that she'll get some protection and provision from the father.

 

That's why women are more hurt by emtional affairs and men by physical affairs. An emotional affair means that a man may be pulling his resources from her and her children and instead giving it to another woman which is what she is most afraid of. For a man, physical affairs are so upsetting because it may end up meaning he'll be putting his valuable resources into a child who isn't even his.

 

Not that either gender likes being cheated on in any way, but men generally are quicker to forgive a purely emotional thing as long as it didn't get past that, and women are more likely to forgive a guy basically being a dog and cheating as long as it "didn't mean anything."

[Krankor]

Although men are looking for live also according to him; they just have to think they are getting a good deal before they'll really pour their resources into a woman. Otherwise it is generally just short term mating strategy.

[SherrySher]

Is that more common for a man to do "short term mating strategy" versus a woman doing the same? I imagine it's probably more one sided, though who knows?

[Krankor]

It's more common for men. Dr. Lisle talks about when women do it but I forgot what he said. But it's biologically way riskier behavior for women, which is why men are more likely to engage in it.

[katrina1980]

 

Not that either gender likes being cheated on in any way, but men generally are quicker to forgive a purely emotional thing as long as it didn't get past that, and women are more likely to forgive a guy basically being a dog and cheating as long as it "didn't mean anything."

 

Let's cut to the chase, he's more willing to forgive an emotional affair as long as there was no sex. Such man is an "orbiter" and from what I've read on these forums, men don't feel all that threatened by orbiters.

 

Conversely, women are more willing to forgive sex as long as he wasn't emotionally attached.

This makes sense, although for me, not sure I'd be so willing to forgive the sex (even if he weren't emotionally attached), it would depend on a lot of things I think.

 

Generally speaking, cheating is pretty much a dealbreaker for me.

[Seraphim]

Biologically speaking raising a child is an ENORMOUS effort for a woman.

[Krankor]

Let's cut to the chase, he's more willing to forgive an emotional affair as long as there was no sex. Such man is an "orbiter" and from what I've read on these forums, men don't feel all that threatened by orbiters.

 

Conversely, women are more willing to forgive sex as long as he wasn't emotionally attached.

This makes sense, although for me, not sure I'd be so willing to forgive the sex (even if he weren't emotionally attached), it would depend on a lot of things I think.

 

Generally speaking, cheating is pretty much a dealbreaker for me.

Yeah, it's pretty much a deal-breaker for me, but I think about this hypothetically: Let's say my girlfriend/wife had this male co-worker. Their relationship crossed the line and she developed feelings for him. But it never ended up in the bedroom and she cut it off before it got physical, confessed everything, and cut off all communication with him. I won't say it wouldn't bother me and it may even be too much. But depending on the circumstances I may be able to forgive her, especially if I somewhat blamed myself: i.e. I hadn't been paying enough attention to her, etc. It would bother me for a while but as long as it didn't go "too far" I may be able to get past it. If I can get her to fall in love with me again and forget him then it can be "undone."

 

However, if she were on a business trip and some really attractive guy were coming on to her and she gave in to the temptation after a few drinks, I'm probably done. I don't care if she had any real feelings for him or not. It would weirdly almost make it worse to know that it was nothing more than physical attraction. Frankly, she'd be damaged goods to me after that point. To me, it happened, and it can't be undone.

 

I imagine the opposite is true for most women.

[Krankor]

Biologically speaking raising a child is an ENORMOUS effort for a woman.

That's very true, and that fact has a lot to do with female psychology when it comes to dating and relationships.

 

I think this is why women tend to naturally feel "creeped out" when an unattractive guy is signalling interest. She doesn't want to invest that much biologically with an inferior man's child, and rape was likely pretty common in the stone age.

[Seraphim]

That's very true, and that fact has a lot to do with female psychology when it comes to dating and relationships.

 

I think this is why women tend to naturally feel "creeped out" when an unattractive guy is signalling interest. She doesn't want to invest that much biologically with an inferior man's child, and rape was likely pretty common in the stone age.

I don't mean that. I mean pregnancy is HARD on the body. Maternal and infant death are very very very real in most societies. Even western society maternal and infant death happens. I almost died twice . My health is very different for the worse after the birth of my first child. A woman's dental health decreases.

 

I am talking about physical dangers of bearing kids.

[katrina1980]

Yeah, it's pretty much a deal-breaker for me, but I think about this hypothetically: Let's say my girlfriend/wife had this male co-worker. Their relationship crossed the line and she developed feelings for him. But it never ended up in the bedroom and she cut it off before it got physical, confessed everything, and cut off all communication with him. I won't say it wouldn't bother me and it may even be too much. But depending on the circumstances I may be able to forgive her, especially if I somewhat blamed myself: i.e. I hadn't been paying enough attention to her, etc. It would bother me for a while but as long as it didn't go "too far" I may be able to get past it. If I can get her to fall in love with me again and forget him then it can be "undone."

 

However, if she were on a business trip and some really attractive guy were coming on to her and she gave in to the temptation after a few drinks, I'm probably done. I don't care if she had any real feelings for him or not. It would weirdly almost make it worse to know that it was nothing more than physical attraction. Frankly, she'd be damaged goods to me after that point. To me, it happened, and it can't be undone.

 

I imagine the opposite is true for most women.

 

I'm pretty sure we agree about this Krankor. You could forgive the emotional affair as long as no sex were involved.

 

I called such guy an "orbiter" but that may not be true in all instances. You're talking about her developing "feelings" for a man such that she desires to have sex with him, but doesn't out of respect for you and your relationship.

 

To my understanding, that's not an orbiter. He may have started out as one, but she developed "feelings" and wanted to have sex with him, so it changed.

 

From what I understand, typically women have no desire to have sex with an orbiter(s).

 

I could argue why did she allow their interaction to get to the point wherein she developed feelings for him in the first place?

 

For the ego boost? Was she bored? Needed attention? Isn't this typically why women need orbiters (or even just one) around?

 

I dunno I guess I'm on this "orbiter" kick cause I've been reading and hearing so much about them lately. lol

 

Honestly, I never even heard of them until joining these forums.

 

In your business trip scenario, she DID have sex (sans emotions), but the sans emotions is relevant.

 

She had sex with another man and you're DONE! And rightfully so, imo.

[mustlovedogs]

I could forgive one time sex much easier than repeated events (be they an emotional affair or physical affair). A one time screw up is far more forgivable IMO than intention with planned deceit

[Krankor]

I don't mean that. I mean pregnancy is HARD on the body. Maternal and infant death are very very very real in most societies. Even western society maternal and infant death happens. I almost died twice . My health is very different for the worse after the birth of my first child. A woman's dental health decreases.

 

I am talking about physical dangers of bearing kids.

There's that too. Do you see some disagreement between us on this subject? Honestly, I'm not sure where. I don't mean that in a snarky way, I just mean that maybe I didn't explain myself well.

 

Women can only have so many children in her lifetime and pregnancy is dangerous and costly for them. A man could literally father hundreds of children in his lifetime and if he plays his cards right it would never cost him much of anything. From a survival of the genes standpoint this would be a huge win. This was probably common in the stone age. This simple biological fact explains a ton of the differences between male and female psychology when it comes to dating and romance.

[Seraphim]

There's that too. Do you see some disagreement between us on this subject? Honestly, I'm not sure where. I don't mean that in a snarky way, I just mean that maybe I didn't explain myself well.

 

Women can only have so many children in her lifetime and pregnancy is dangerous and costly for them. A man could literally father hundreds of children in his lifetime and if he plays his cards right it would never cost him much of anything. From a survival of the genes standpoint this would be a huge win. This was probably common in the stone age. This simple biological fact explains a ton of the differences between male and female psychology when it comes to dating and romance.

While I agree that is true, it is advantageous for men for their progeny to survive as well and to do that men and women need to stick together.

[katrina1980]

I could forgive one time sex much easier than repeated events (be they an emotional affair or physical affair). A one time screw up is far more forgivable IMO than intention with planned deceit

 

Like if he were drunk or something and lost track of his senses? lol

 

Because even one time sex with another would suggest intention with planned deceit, imo.

 

I don't think I could forgive. I might want to but I would always be thinking if his character is so poor that he could step out even once, chances are, given the right circumstances, he would step out again.

 

I would lose trust, and for me, once trust is gone I'm done.

[KantSleep]

I can relate to the idea of a "good deal". For me, it's not so much genetics. I had my kids already. I prefer a guy who can fix stuff, earns a decent living, and is self sustaining, because I earn a decent living, and I am self-sustaining. I just can't fix stuff. So my current BF brings something to the table, as described. Hence it's a good deal. As far as cheating goes, it's not likely I would get over it if sex was involved. As far as emotional affairs are concerned, I am not sure about that. I would have to know the details to determine if I could recover from it.

[Krankor]

While I agree that is true, it is advantageous for men for their progeny to survive as well and to do that men and women need to stick together.

That's true too, which is why pair-bonding happens. But generally speaking in order for a male to basically fall to his knees and pledge his undying loyalty and provision he has to believe that he's sleeping up. If he's a 5 and she's a 6 (or he sees her that way) he'll invest heavily in her and their kids. But he'll probably still want to go to the other side of the hill and score some 5's and 4's on the side. Obviously this is simplified and I'm talking about our stone-aged brains, not how things always play out in the modern world.

 

However, one thing that is interesting that Dr. Lisle talks about is how generally males do about 10% of the direct, hands on childcare of their children. However, in relationships in which the male is more attractive than the female, that percentage falls to about 1%. That's pretty sad but unfortunately it's how human psychology is.

[jennylove]

So it's best if a man views the woman as a number or more higher than what she views him as. However, the rating she gives him must be no less than the rating to which she sees in herself.

 

A man may temporarily be with a woman who is s number-ish less than the rating he sees in himself. And the relationship may stick for awhile, but it's usually until someone better comes along.

 

A woman rarely initiates anything with a man who has a lower number than her own.

[Seraphim]

I see my husband as comparable to me. He sees me as far above him.

[Krankor]

So it's best if a man views the woman as a number or more higher than what she views him as. However, the rating she gives him must be no less than the rating to which she sees in herself.

 

A man may temporarily be with a woman who is s number-ish less than the rating he sees in himself. And the relationship may stick for awhile, but it's usually until someone better comes along.

 

A woman rarely initiates anything with a man who has a lower number than her own.

Well, the ideal situation for two people to fall in love and end up in a good, long term relationship is for BOTH people to think they are getting a good deal and "trading up." So, if you have a couple of people who are 5's and know they are 5's, but they both see each other as 6's, their chances are good.

 

Dr. Lisle talks about how you will sometimes see long-term relationships in which the male is objectively more attractive than the female. You may even see an 8 with a 5. But what is almost invariably the case there is that he is very lazy, so lazy that he doesn't even want to compete for 8's and 9's. And she puts up with his laziness because he's so good-looking.

 

Generally, if you have a woman who's a 6 and a guy who's a 7, he's just after short term mating. He may say the right things to her, but he just wants to get into her pants a few times. This is such common behavior for males that they often don't even know they are lying, and these are often the women you'll see heart-broken about being "ghosted" by a guy who they thought they really had something special with.