Love my GF but having attraction isssues

[BritterSweet]

I didn't want to mention it explicitly in my last post because perhaps I was overthinking it, but upon reading your follow-up, it's now more evident: you're projecting your perfectionism onto her. You can't control her or change her, and the acceptability of her body/upkeep level is your own issue, not hers. It's not something she's doing to you.

 

You know what else changes a woman's appearance and supposedly makes her less attractive? Aging. Even if she slimmed down to the perfect waistline and wore the clothes you wanted her to wear, what will you do when she starts to get wrinkles? Facial masks, eye cream, moisturizers and cosmetics can only do so much. (Before you say something about your opinion on how attractive you find her skin, that's not the point. I'm trying to make a comparison. I'm a skin care addict who spends more time and money on masks and sunscreen than makeup and clothes combined because that makes me feel beautiful, but I wouldn't want to make other people adhere to my skin care regime, not even my SO. Their skin is none of my business.)

 

And to be honest, I think tattoobunnie may have hit a nerve to bring out that reaction from you. I do think she has a point where you have some insecurities messing with you.

[TheMainT]

Ok. Well, see I'm willing to hear stuff like this. Maybe I can improve myself here. I am open-minded and always learning, which is why I came here. I just don't like being attacked. So what do you suggest I do? Because tattoobunnie said to break up with my girlfriend. Think that will solve my insecurity issues? Should I just break up with the girl I love out of no where and go be lonely in a corner the rest of my life since I'm clearly an insecure jerk? I'm all ears.

 

I didn't want to mention it explicitly in my last post because perhaps I was overthinking it, but upon reading your follow-up, it's now more evident: you're projecting your perfectionism onto her. You can't control her or change her, and the acceptability of her body/upkeep level is your own issue, not hers. It's not something she's doing to you.

 

You know what else changes a woman's appearance and supposedly makes her less attractive? Aging. Even if she slimmed down to the perfect waistline and wore the clothes you wanted her to wear, what will you do when she starts to get wrinkles? Facial masks, eye cream, moisturizers and cosmetics can only do so much. (Before you say something about your opinion on how attractive you find her skin, that's not the point. I'm trying to make a comparison. I'm a skin care addict who spends more time and money on masks and sunscreen than makeup and clothes combined because that makes me feel beautiful, but I wouldn't want to make other people adhere to my skin care regime, not even my SO. Their skin is none of my business.)

 

And to be honest, I think tattoobunnie may have hit a nerve to bring out that reaction from you. I do think she has a point where you have some insecurities messing with you.

[BritterSweet]

EDIT: Deleted because I'm not sure if it's worth it.

[TheMainT]

No really, I'm intrigued at the logic here:

 

I am insecure... Therefore it's being suggested that I break up with my girlfriend whom I love, because I clearly don't deserve her. Which will somehow solve my insecurity problem and help out my girlfriend who is so happy with me as a boyfriend that she's been talking about how she wants to spend her life with me, get married, have children, etc... And I feel the same way about her. I just was concerned about this one issue.

 

A very good way for her to lose 180 pounds fast is to just break up with you. Honestly, you don't love her. If you did you honestly would see past all that, and love her for who she is, not for who you want her to be. If physical upkeep is a deal-breaker for you, then just break up. I know you don't want to look bad and shallow, so you keep trying to justify why you feel this way, but what it comes down to it is that you just don't deserve her.

 

Let's take some responsibility for what we say here. Btw, pretty sure she's not even 180lbs total so not sure what that's about.

[Lauren8785]

Good post. I think the issue for the OP is that he is effectively trying to change her. It's pretty clear they have different values with regards to appearances and personal health.

 

For the OP, he says he wouldn't let himself get a gut. However, I think what he should realise is that most likely even if he did develop a gut, his girlfriend probably wouldn't care (different values) and still love him regardless.

 

That is a massive difference in attitude. I don't think that is something you can change easily.

 

Thanks Chon !

 

I totally agree with you, both definitely have different values and as one of the other posters on here said, he needs to decide if this is going to be a deal breaker for him or not. Not cool to stay in a relationship if the values are not the same.

 

Nobody can change anyone else, they have to be willing to change themselves and if not then you either accept that or move on.

[Lauren8785]

First and foremost, thank you everyone for your thorough, helpful replies and advice!

 

 

 

What this means, is I've noticed a big trend that she will for the most part, just do whatever her friends or I want rather than have her own desire to do things. She expects me to plan 90% of everything and if something I want or any of her friends want would clash with something she wants, she won't even voice what she wants and instead will do what her friends or the other person wants. This is because she is extremely mellow, easy-going and non-judgmental. It's a personality trait really.

 

But it works both ways. The Ups:

 

• She's not judgmental - Need I say more?
  
• Because she is not super opinionated/as much of a "leader" as I am, we don't clash much
  
• She's very easy to be around and not demanding at all
  
• She's also very nice and understanding in general and nobody I know has ever had a problem with her
  
  • Let these things not be understated. I truly value and love her and highly appreciate the fact that she is not a fussy girl. I've dated several of the "high maintenance" kind of girls and we end up also not getting along a lot because then we both fuss at each other about what we each want! LOL
    

   

 

 

The downs:

• The above things apparently also mean that she is lax about her physical upkeep
  
• And can be messy around the house. However, interestingly, she loves to clean up and organize my stuff (she just does it without me even asking), but when it comes to her stuff, it's a mess. So I know she can be clean. The question is, why is she not doing it for herself?
  
• She may or may not be insecure - but it's definitely not a problem. I realize, especially my above statement, may lead you to feel that she is an insecure person. Interestingly though, she is actually pretty strong. She does not easily get her feelings hurt, will push past things that even I may stumble on, and she has very little concern with me being around other girls. In fact, that is one thing I do really like about her.
  

 

 

Having said this though... It's hard to explain but I (and I assume many other men are; I am actually by far the least superficial out of the guys I know) am sorta hard-wired to appreciate looks and a girl's physical upkeep. After all, in this society, that's a big differentiating thing between males and females. Men also have responsibilities both in the looks categories and others... In other words, a girl who doesn't take care of herself physically is similar to a guy with little or no confidence - it's just not attractive. Girls, I hope you see my point here. Also, I don't know what to say - when I'm working my butt off at the gym and going on runs, spending hours and hours on my physical well-being, and seeing other women who do the same, it's just not attractive that the woman I'm with doesn't. I don't want to paint her the wrong way though. She does go to the gym often. She's always telling me she's at the gym and she also touts herself as a healthy eater and as someone who is a healthy person. This is why I was sort of misled. But the thing is, when she goes to the gym she likes to do her own thing and she doesn't "really" work out hard enough so you never really see any results. Plus, she doesn't eat as healthy as she say she does. So it's not like she is a "I like to eat whatever I want and I don't care about my health and that's how I am" type. She claims she's healthy, goes to the gym, but when she's not around me she's eating fries and burgers and she doesn't really put in much work at the gym, which means she continuously gains weight.

 

Last but not least, why am I asking here? Why is this even a concern to me? Well, because I am 100% aware of all of the things I love about this girl and 100% aware that if I were to leave her, I may never find someone so nice and easy-going again and I may wind up with some girl who looks like a model but lies, cheats, isn't as compatible with my personalty, etc.... You could say that's a negative outlook, but I prefer to view it as truly appreciating my girlfriend. Another thing - she's not ugly by any means. She has a great smile and eyes and she has a nice butt. The thing is, beauty starts to fade away at a certain body fat percentage and that's what's starting to happen.

 

I guess I just have to hope that she will change at some point. I've actually known a lot of girls who one day completely turned around and started eating healthy, working out a lot, and became happier people because of it... So I know that it can happen. This is just a tough spot because I don't even want to think about breaking up with her over this because it wouldn't be right in my mind. I'd feel like a real if I broke up with an otherwise fine young lady because of just what I've described.. But honestly, I tend to feel guilty a lot in general; that's one of my flaws. I'm very hard on myself; I really am a perfectionist in a way: mainly on myself. But it pays off - I get a lot of job opportunities, have had 2 previous high-paying careers (that I ended up not enjoying lol), and I'm in great shape and reap the benefits of that as well - my girlfriend is always complimenting and appreciating my looks. Why can't she do this so I can do the same to her?

 

Perhaps eventually the time will be right and she will either change OR the problem will blow up into something else that will make it more clear for me on what I should do about it. That's all I can ask for.

 

You're welcome for the advice.

 

I agree with Blue Ridge, and like I said too. I think if you two work out together and encourage her it may rub off on her and in time she will start to lose weight. You will be more happier, because she may start to look physically better to you and she is making an effort to be more active. So honestly, it would seem like a win, win for both. Also, when you two are together, why not cook something healthy together too? Skip the burgers and fries if it's fast food, don't eat that stuff together, keep it healthy. Otherwise it's just going to make her still want to eat that junk. Maybe if she see's how important being physical and eating right is to you (you can mention that when you two are working out together or making a healthy meal without sounding like you are trying to change her, keep it about yourself) your influence can rub off on her and she may change it herself and do the same because when we encourage one another and do things our partner likes to do, we usually tend to do those things to keep our partner happy when we truly love them. Just remember it may or may not happen in the long run, because you can't change her, she has to be willing to do that herself.

 

She sounds like an incredible woman overall! If I was a guy I certainly wouldn't want to lose someone like that. Hard to find an easy, laid-back, go with the flow type of woman who doesn't seem jealous or petty. Wonderful girlfriend/wifey qualities by far! Don't lose a 'diamond' to gain a 'pearl' just because she's gain some weight, truly.

 

We all have habits that we are not perfect at. You seem to set yourself as a high standard and she's not like that. Maybe since your opposites in that sense it could balance the two of you out possibly. Afterall I hear opposites attract. Who cares if her stuff is messy, maybe she likes it that way is it really that big of a deal if her stuff is all over in the bedroom or where ever? It seems like a trivial thing to me, maybe try to loosen your perfectionist grip on that part of her. As long as the rest of the home is clean and tidy that should be good enough I would think, just saying. Have you talked to her about cleaniess? If not, maybe bring it up to her if it does bother you that much. Maybe that would be something she would be willing to change or improve on if you brought it up to her in a positive light rather then putting her down for it.

 

I think you have a good deal going on here and I hope these ideas can help you out and that the two of you can remain together. Good luck.

[Lauren8785]

Here is what it all boils down to:

 

Give my idea a test run (work out together and make healthy meals together) say for whatever amount of time you want to give it. If it hasn't seemed to rub off on her or change at all in that amount of time, then maybe decide to end it with her. Give her the benefit of the doubt give it a chance and see what happens

 

You never know it may all work out for the best overall. This way it doesn't seem like you're trying to change her and you may see improvements in her physical appearance. Overall a possible win, win.

[TheMainT]

Lauren, you're right, she is an incredible woman and I am very happy to have her. Funny, I just read another post about a poor girl who had been dating a guy for over a year and he never said he loved her. I'm the opposite, I tell her I love her every time I see her and how much I appreciate her; that is important to me.

 

Part of this I think is how I was raised. Both my parents are very critical and I also was with an employer for a while who was very critical like military bootcamp: you don't leave your bed unmade and you don't show up with an unpressed uniform. If you do, you get disciplined, no questions asked. Does that mean the military /my ex employer are jerks? No, they have a job and reason for what they do. But that kind of environment, coupled with parents who raised me in a strict way (which I am very thankful for, by the way as I never got into drugs or crime or anything thanks to that), may explain some of these "shallow" outlooks I have. My mom has always told me to try to avoid messy girls because it means that they aren't going to take care of things around the house in the long run, which is bad. Think what you want about my mom, but I can tell you she is a highly respected woman who has leapt heaps and bounds for my family, works her butt off, and is very selfless. Even me, who has these crazy standards, was ridiculed at my last job for something as simple as having my nametag off by 1 cm. So this may have shown me here that I need to "tone it back down" a bit.

 

Anyway, as far as the eating and working out goes, I think you have great ideas. As I said, she actually goes to the gym often and she says that she wants to eat healthy and be healthy, which is why I was confused about people saying I wanted to change her. It would be one thing if she said "Sorry man, this is how I live." and trust me, I've had that before and had to break up with someone because of differences, but that's not her. To be honest, I may need to take more of a leadership role with the health thing. What happens is, I exercise a whole lot and since I only see her on my days off, the time I spend with her is usually my "cheat day" which means that I tend to be unhealthier myself that day. Traditionally, I lax up on the diet and stuff when I'm with her and try to enjoy myself, but that may be helping pull her into bad habits because that's all she sees me do lol.

 

Lauren, honestly, you really made me realize something here. Sounds like if I want her health to be for the better, I could put more into the relationship. I could work a little harder since I do really have a great woman and lead the way a bit more. Maybe I need to show that I care for her by disciplining my own self further, especially around her, to set the example. Also, with the cleanliness stuff, as I said I know she is capable of being organized, I think she would be when we live together. She said she always took care of her apartment and I believe her since she helps take care of mine. It's definitely worth a shot, and I'm definitely not interested in breaking up with her over her weight because I also know things change. I've seen women turn their weight around and I myself have had weight fluctuations, it's part of life.

 

 

 

Here is what it all boils down to:

 

Give my idea a test run (work out together and make healthy meals together) say for whatever amount of time you want to give it. If it hasn't seemed to rub off on her or change at all in that amount of time, then maybe decide to end it with her. Give her the benefit of the doubt give it a chance and see what happens

 

You never know it may all work out for the best overall. This way it doesn't seem like you're trying to change her and you may see improvements in her physical appearance. Overall a possible win, win.

[tattoobunnie]

You're right, probably shouldn't have wasted my time. Sometimes defending yourself when you're attacked is a good idea though.

 

I think what ThatwasThen is referring to is that something I am saying is bothering you for a reason. Cuz you know part of it is true. So you are defending it left and right, because you want to look like the nice guy. The victim.

 

It's "she doesn't do this, she won't do that." The commonality is what you found all wrong about her is you.

 

Being shallow or having preferences does not make you a bad person. I know no one wants to think about themselves as Shallow Hal, but you have to realize a lot of people do not care with the love of their life is fat or skinny or tall or short, in a wheelchair, high-strung, laid back, full-body tattooed, they just love them.

 

And a working partnership is not wishing the other person had a different lifestyle. She is who she is, a free spirit comfortable in her body. And either it works for you, or it doesn't. And there's nothing wrong with you if it doesn't.

 

I mean if you just want every person who share how bad for you because she doesn't make physical fitness and cleaning her room her number one priority in life, and how deserve a 10 because you sort of look past all her weight gain, then go look in a mirror, and keep telling yourself the same thing over and over again.

[ThatwasThen]

No I'm not saying that, bunnie. I was implying that he wasted his time defending himself to a comment he completed didn't get any value out of. That being said. I Do think the OP is hoping to mold this girl into someone he's been conditioned to be deemed acceptable. I think it's from his rather rigid upbringing. (Mother wouldn't approve type of thing)

 

Couples counselling to help her to be more ship shape and him less rigid would do them well I think. They BOTH need changing for this to last is my opinion.

[Zaphod]

Here's a thought:

 

If you enjoy having sex with her, there's no problem here. It is an indication of the fact that you find her fundamentally sexually attractive.

 

If the fact that she's not quite as in shape as you'd like her to be is your only problem, I'd say you've got a winner. Have a look into your mind and see whether you can't arrive a at a compromise position on this with yourself. Gain some perspective and maybe lose the neurosis a little bit.

 

What you don't want to happen is you lose her because of it then find yourself out in the wilderness unable to find another woman of such calibre, and without the option of getting her back.

 

Compromise is needed. Perhaps she goes down the gym slightly more, while simultaneously you relax off about it slightly more. You meet in the middle.

 

Meanwhile - go have sex with her, man. That'll lose her some weight. Make her go on top

[tattoobunnie]

Great blog post from a famous author addressing her weight gain,

[Lauren8785]

Lauren, you're right, she is an incredible woman and I am very happy to have her. Funny, I just read another post about a poor girl who had been dating a guy for over a year and he never said he loved her. I'm the opposite, I tell her I love her every time I see her and how much I appreciate her; that is important to me.

 

Part of this I think is how I was raised. Both my parents are very critical and I also was with an employer for a while who was very critical like military bootcamp: you don't leave your bed unmade and you don't show up with an unpressed uniform. If you do, you get disciplined, no questions asked. Does that mean the military /my ex employer are jerks? No, they have a job and reason for what they do. But that kind of environment, coupled with parents who raised me in a strict way (which I am very thankful for, by the way as I never got into drugs or crime or anything thanks to that), may explain some of these "shallow" outlooks I have. My mom has always told me to try to avoid messy girls because it means that they aren't going to take care of things around the house in the long run, which is bad. Think what you want about my mom, but I can tell you she is a highly respected woman who has leapt heaps and bounds for my family, works her butt off, and is very selfless. Even me, who has these crazy standards, was ridiculed at my last job for something as simple as having my nametag off by 1 cm. So this may have shown me here that I need to "tone it back down" a bit.

 

Anyway, as far as the eating and working out goes, I think you have great ideas. As I said, she actually goes to the gym often and she says that she wants to eat healthy and be healthy, which is why I was confused about people saying I wanted to change her. It would be one thing if she said "Sorry man, this is how I live." and trust me, I've had that before and had to break up with someone because of differences, but that's not her. To be honest, I may need to take more of a leadership role with the health thing. What happens is, I exercise a whole lot and since I only see her on my days off, the time I spend with her is usually my "cheat day" which means that I tend to be unhealthier myself that day. Traditionally, I lax up on the diet and stuff when I'm with her and try to enjoy myself, but that may be helping pull her into bad habits because that's all she sees me do lol.

 

Lauren, honestly, you really made me realize something here. Sounds like if I want her health to be for the better, I could put more into the relationship. I could work a little harder since I do really have a great woman and lead the way a bit more. Maybe I need to show that I care for her by disciplining my own self further, especially around her, to set the example. Also, with the cleanliness stuff, as I said I know she is capable of being organized, I think she would be when we live together. She said she always took care of her apartment and I believe her since she helps take care of mine. It's definitely worth a shot, and I'm definitely not interested in breaking up with her over her weight because I also know things change. I've seen women turn their weight around and I myself have had weight fluctuations, it's part of life.

 

Thank you, I'm glad you appreciate my ideas that means a lot to me

 

Definitely start to take a leadership role more to set an example I think that will help a lot I would suggest changing your "cheat day" to a different day where you don't see her. This way you can still eat junk food, but you won't be influencing her either. Keep it healthy when you two are together. If she see's your eating healthy it will more than likely rub off on her too. Yes, it is very hard to maintain weight, it's always an up and down roller coaster for everyone and glad you realize that it's just a part of life too. It takes time to get fit as I am sure you know, so when you're both working out together and eating healthy, just realize it's going to take some time for her to drop some pounds and notice a change in her figure be patient and encouraging.

 

How one is raised definitely has an affect on how you will be as a person. I do think your parents did a great job raising you strictly if it kept you out of trouble, I applaud that! I'm glad you will tone it down a bit though I think that is a great idea. Life is too short to sweat all the small things and that is not worth sweating over if she's a little messy, that's just how she is. Be happy that she keeps your things neat and organized at least and she does that because she loves you and knows you're an organized type of person. I'm sure she will keep the rest of the house neat and organized as she had done in the past, so I wouldn't worry about it any longer.

 

I'm glad you tell her you love and appreciate her when you see her, that's very important for a woman to hear. As well as actions behind those words. I always believe in the saying, actions speak louder than words. I'm glad you won't break up with her over this either. She truly sounds like a gem and should be treasured regardless of her weight.

 

I hope my ideas will work out for you and I wish you the best of luck

[Zaphod]

It takes time to get fit as I am sure you know, so when you're both working out together and eating healthy, just realize it's going to take some time for her to drop some pounds and notice a change in her figure be patient and encouraging.

 

Yeah I've noticed that whatever you do fitness-wise, there seems to be a month or two delay before seeing the results, weight-loss speaking so the results are always buffered by that amount of time. You may feel immediately stronger, faster, fitter, sure, but the weight loss or gain takes more time.

 

So you need to give her a little time to catch up with herself, so to speak.

[youareworthy]

Hi there, TheMainT,

 

Take a comfortable chair. Brevity is not my gift. Your posts have really spoken to me. I will first give a quote, then my thoughts.

 

SO WHAT IN THE WORLD IS LOVE, ANYWAY?

"I love my girlfriend. I just don't LIKE this particular thing about her."

 

"We have great sex and I get turned on by her beauty."

 

You're reading this as, "I don't truly love my girlfriend." That's simply not true unless your definition of love means that you absolutely love every single thing your S/O always does and never have any problems, disagreements, and always see eye-to-eye on everything. Yeah right, give me a break. If that is seriously true for you, I'd like to meet you, because you must be Jesus Christ. Apparently to you, love means that you never disagree with someone, and like every single thing they do. Gee, you must either be Jesus or have some sort of superfamily.

 

There were four kinds of love defined in ancient Greece, upon which our Western notions of love are built. (Full disclosure: I'm a language scholar.)

 

phileo Friendship/brotherly love. The love you have for your best buds, people who are "like brothers." (Philadelphia="City of Brotherly Love")

 

storge Family love. The love you have for relatives: parents, grandparents, children, grandchildren, cousins, nephews and nieces, etc.

 

eros Sexual love. The love for your girlfriend, boyfriend, wife, husband. Sexual desire and passion; physical and emotional intimacy.

 

agape Unconditional love. This kind of love is utterly selfless. It DOES, in fact, accept and receive the one you love precisely as she is. And, as you already know on some intuitive level, this is the Greek verb used whenever Jesus tells his followers he loves them.

 

A successful long-term romantic/love relationship has all four of these. I think you two are well on your way to having a fully fledged 4-fold love:

 

1. Clearly you “eros” your girlfriend. You two have great sex and you get turned on by her beauty; she is hands-down the best lover you've had.

 

2. My guess is that you also share a lot of phileo. You sound like you get along well as friends. You enjoy one another's company, you like hanging out together. She is a follower, you are a leader, and you enjoy initiating the activities of your time together.

 

3. If you ever marry, and especially if you have children together, you will very likely develop the family kind of fondness and love, storge. Ask the couples you know who have been happily married a while if they have this "she/he is my family" companionate love between them.

 

4. It appears to me that tattoobunnie may see that agape is missing. Agape is the kind of love that accepts the beloved entirely, WARTS AND ALL. Agape declares that you see what your girlfriend is, the good and the bad, and you CHOOSE to love her as she is. You CHOOSE to accept every single thing. This unconditional acceptance, this agape is the bedrock of a real and lasting love.

 

But what about constructive change?

This does NOT mean that you cannot bring something up that concerns you, that you hope your girlfriend can see in a different light. People who love one another can and will try to make some changes for each other, some compromises, as Zaphod says. But bringing up something you really want your partner to change, especially something fundamental to their being, should be a rare occurrence, and should be serious enough that you are willing to risk the relationship over it.

 

When you “agape” your girlfriend, your job is to accept and love her.

And if she loves you back with agape, her job is to love and accept you.

 

If you fix anyone, it is yourself. If she fixes anyone, it is herself. You cannot make her fix herself; she cannot make you fix yourself.

 

After my ex-husband and I had been dating/married for 15 years, and in our 7th year of marriage counseling, our therapist finally looked at my husband and said, "You have been trying to change Youareworthy for 15 years now. Are your methods working? Or are you banging your head against a wall? When are you going to stop trying to fix her, and just accept her exactly as she is?" BINGO!

 

INSECURITIES

Ok. Well, see I'm willing to hear stuff like this. Maybe I can improve myself here. I am open-minded and always learning. So what do you suggest I do? Because tattoobunnie said to break up with my girlfriend. Think that will solve my insecurity issues? Should I just break up with the girl I love out of nowhere and go be lonely in a corner the rest of my life since I'm clearly an insecure jerk? I'm all ears…

No really, I'm intrigued at the logic here: I am insecure... Therefore it's being suggested that I break up with my girlfriend whom I love, because I clearly don't deserve her. Which will somehow solve my insecurity problem and help out my girlfriend who is so happy with me as a boyfriend that she's been talking about how she wants to spend her life with me, get married, have children, etc... And I feel the same way about her. I just was concerned about this one issue.

 

Your insecurities

I love that you are trying to be open-minded, to learn. That will lead to the most lasting improvements in your relationship.

 

You know the saying, "If you point a finger at someone, the other four are pointing back at you?" Often the thing we dislike about another is the thing we also dislike about ourselves. Perhaps you can mull that over, and see if you feel anxious about your appearance. What would happen to you if you don't eat well, or if you slack off at the gym, or if you rock a bathing suit with a gut? Has growing up in a beach culture, or being raised with your parents' high standards, made you feel that anything less than nearly perfect is not worthy of respect? Just give some serious thought to what is really going on inside you on this issue. That's all.

(I agree that many, if not most, Americans are overweight and need to eat better.)

 

Her insecurities

She may or may not be insecure - but it's definitely not a problem. I realize, especially my above statement, may lead you to feel that she is an insecure person. Interestingly though, she is actually pretty strong. She does not easily get her feelings hurt, will push past things that even I may stumble on, and she has very little concern with me being around other girls. In fact, that is one thing I do really like about her.

 

Honestly, she sounds very together overall. But if she is insecure about her weight or fitness, here’s a funny story:

 

A clueless guy had heard his wife express her insecurities about her looks. She was putting on weight, and felt particularly self-conscious about her thighs. The guy, thinking it was his job to fix things, said one evening, "You know, honey, you are always saying you want to slim down your thighs. I am going to the gym tonight. Why don't you come with me? That's a great way to slim your thighs!" The poor schlub had no idea why his wife suddenly got really angry and insulted, and of course refused to go to the gym with him.

 

When I told this comment to a woman friend of mine, a very fit and super-hot psychologist, she said, "If my boyfriend said that to me, I would immediately go bake a pan of brownies and eat the whole thing as comfort food!"

 

The moral of the story:

 

If you are not entirely happy with your girlfriend's physical fitness, eating habits, and steady weight gain, I'll bet you she senses this. It would not surprise me one bit if her current eating habits are actually a subconscious coping strategy; that she is seeking comfort food to make herself feel better because she is picking up on your disapproval, and perhaps has even spotted you checking out other women who have more of the beach bod and the evidence-of-self-discipline that you like.

 

I assume you know that when women feel insecure, they often turn to food for comfort?

 

Here is where agape is so awesome. Once she senses you unconditionally accept everything about her, and have zero agenda to change her, the nonverbal vibes you are currently sending out about her looks will dry up, and any insecurities she has, that may be leading to overeating, will disappear. Recently I lost 45 lbs. It was because I felt unconditionally loved for the first time in decades.

 

Agape makes a person thrive!

 

THE JOKE YOU MISSED

Btw, pretty sure she's not even 180 lbs total so not sure what that's about.

 

Translation If she breaks up with you, she doesn't shed any of her own body weight, she loses YOU! If you weight 180 lbs. and she dumps you, she would instantly lose your 180 lbs. from her life.

 

SELF-DISCIPLINE AND CHARACTER

It was more about the effort... I just appreciate discipline and passion to something, and that often comes in the form physical upkeep.

 

I highly value and appreciate fitness. It's more than looks. It's a display of hard work, discipline, and dedication and those are the core traits that I find attractive.

 

Here is a life principle: a person’s greatest strength is also his/her greatest weakness.

 

Your girlfriend is easy-going, mellow, not opinionated, and a follower. I am a lot like her. The upsides are, as you say, she is lovely to get along with. She isn’t quarrelsome, fussy, or high-maintenance. You clearly see how excellent these traits are in a relationship, and they appear to match your leadership style well. But I sense already a bit of resentment on your part about being the leader virtually all the time.

 

A person with your girlfriend’s easy-going traits is usually a “do it with you” type, rather than a “take initiate and do it on my own” kind. I am totally a “do it with you” person. I struggle with initiative. I am a great planner, but often lack follow-through. This, in me, relates to ADHD (which, if you are interested in reading more about, I describe in another thread).

 

You have a lot of initiative, and you admire it in others. You value hard work and self-discipline. You see your girlfriend taking initiative in the arena of job-hunting, but not in nutrition and fitness. She will go to the gym with you, she eats well when you eat well with her, but on her own, these behaviors aren’t what she naturally gravitates to for her own sake, right?

 

That is because they are not her top priorities. She knows that exercise and nutrition are important in general and important to you, and she believes that she is being healthy about her exercise and eating, but you see her differently. She is not trying to mislead you, though. Many people talk about what they believe, and really think they are living it, but they are not always consistent between talk and action. Welcome to the human race!

 

GOING TO THE GYM, BUT NO RESULTS

She does go to the gym often. But the thing is, when she goes to the gym she likes to do her own thing and she doesn't "really" work out hard enough so you never really see any results.

 

Her workout style is evidently different from yours. Is she achieving good, but invisible, cardio results, rather than good, and visible, strength training and muscle ripping results?

 

(By the way, if you are into nutrition and exercise, I assume you know that weight loss has little to do with going to the gym, right? It has a lot more to do with food quality and quantity. Time Magazine had an assumption-shattering issue on the relative ineffectiveness of working out on weight loss 4 or 5 years ago, based on years of studies…. It dealt a real blow to the fitness industry. Check it out.)

 

You may not know that exercise, weight loss and weight maintenance methods and their results vary widely between the two genders. In women, weight loss and maintenance has a lot to do with how many hours’ sleep we get per night, and if we have a long enough break between dinner and breakfast (see The Venus Factor for more information on women and the hormone called leptin).

 

Or perhaps she is less focused on “results” and “goals” than you are. That would be a fairly typical male/female difference. Perhaps she enjoys socializing at the gym, and sort of loses focus on any strength or fitness goals she had in going there. That would be me, totally.

 

NUTRITION AND THE FOLLOWER

If I don't step up and make it a point to try and eat healthy, she won't... However, if I DO try to enforce healthy behavior, she often will follow me there too...

 

So, now it is up to you. Do you want to take the lead, and let her follow, and accept that quality about her? Because she is who she is. Lucky for her if you like to lead (and are not abusive), and you lead her down healthy paths. You will both win!

 

Since I am a follower, when I date someone who is totally into fitness and nutrition, I get that way too, and we both benefit and enjoy that lifestyle together. I am just not that great at initiating exercise when I am alone.

 

CLOTHES

In addition, she often will wear baggy "guy style" shirts.

 

This is an easy one! Give her the pretty shirts you think will look great on her; you have Christmas, Valentine’s Day, birthday, dating anniversaries. Or just take her shopping one day as a surprise, and pick out some things you like that she may try on. You don’t have to tell her you don’t like her style. She may be like me, totally oblivious to clothes! For some women, clothes are purely utilitarian, and they hate shopping. (Yes, we do exist.)

 

It was not until I was 51 ½, and had just shed the first 30 pounds of the 45 (see The Venus Factor, above), that I paid any attention to clothes at all. My clothes were falling off, and I had to do something serious. I hauled out and tried on every piece of clothing I owned. I looked in a full-length mirror for each item. If I didn’t spontaneously utter, “Wow!” or “Pretty!” when I saw myself in it, I got rid of it. One hundred twelve items of clothing left my home that weekend. They were all hand-me-downs or 20-30 years old. I kept only things that if I were “caught” wearing them, I would be pleased, not embarrassed (I have no baggy sweats!). It felt and still feels amazing, but before the winter of 2014-15, I NEVER noticed my clothes. My current wardrobe comes from Goodwill and Target only, but finally, I look GOOD. And the men (and women, and relatives) around me attest to that.

 

MAKEUP

She often will wear no makeup when going out with me unless its more of a "formal date."

 

I also rarely wear makeup. I only wear it on a "formal" date, to a job interview or audition, when I perform (sing/dance/act) or for photo shoots. Some women just aren’t that fussed about makeup. And some men, including men I have spoken with in private messages on ENA, really don’t like makeup on their women. All the men I have dated have commented that they love that I don’t wear makeup! But for all my thrift store clothing and no makeup, I have very little trouble attracting plenty of male attention.

 

So back to your girlfriend:

 

Do you find her beautiful without makeup? Does her face look beautiful to you? Does her body attract you? If the answers are yes, then “it’s all good.” A little minor tweaking of her clothes is all you need, and that’s easy if you give her things that look awesome on her!

 

I know that sometimes a man feels better about himself when the woman on his arm is very attractive and put together. Is this going through your mind? Are you worried about what others may think about you if your woman is putting on some weight, dresses down, and isn’t wearing makeup?

 

Examine why what she wears and whether she has makeup on is important to you. I am not judging you if it is important—I just think you should consider why.

 

HINTS

I have tried time and time again to give her all kinds of hints...

 

If she is like me, she is probably not getting the hints. I am notoriously bad at reading social cues. I have told my best friends, boyfriends, and kids to tell me things straight, but gently. This works much better for me and for them.

 

But be careful, because when giving hints, or direct but gentle remarks, you may be treading into “I want to change you” territory.

 

DOING THIS TO YOU

Me, I would never do this to a girl.

 

I agree with the other members who have said that she is not doing this TO you. You are, naturally, sensitive to how her appearance affects you, but I sincerely doubt she is trying to hurt or disrespect you. She is simply not wired the way you are about appearance.

 

I DO get that as a man, you would like your mate to present her best visual self to you. But please don’t see her different perspective as an attempt to diss you. See it as a male/female difference.

 

OTHER WOMEN'S BODIES

Unfortunately, I have to look at other girls' bodies to see those things.

 

Well, you don’t HAVE TO, but I know that it is hard to avoid seeing other women’s bodies, especially in Southern California!!!

More to the point, when you look at those bodies, you see self-discipline and hard work, which you don’t see on your girlfriend’s body.

 

Is it essential to you that the woman you date have self-discipline, determination, and hard work?

 

If so, is it essential that these qualities are manifested in the arena of physical fitness (i.e. in her body)?

 

If your answer to these two questions is yes, then perhaps your girlfriend is not the woman for you, and you do need a vegetarian Pilates-and-yoga woman. There are a lot of those in California. I am not being sarcastic. If this is that important to you, then you need a woman whose fitness and nutrition priorities are more closely aligned to yours.

 

ASSERTIVENESS

If something I want or any of her friends want would clash with something she wants, she won't even voice what she wants and instead will do what her friends or the other person wants. This is because she is extremely mellow, easy-going and non-judgmental. It's a personality trait really.

 

This is the only red flag I have seen, and it is for her, not you. I'm concerned for her, if she is not assertive enough to speak up for her own wishes and needs. Her easy-going nature could lead her to become a doormat, or even to being abused.

 

NEAT VS. MESSY

And she can be messy around the house. However, interestingly, she loves to clean up and organize my stuff (she just does it without me even asking), but when it comes to her stuff, it's a mess. So I know she can be clean. The question is, why is she not doing it for herself?

 

She may be overwhelmed by her own stuff. It is always easier to organize and clean other people’s stuff. This is how I am also. When I try to clean up my own stuff, I am hindered by emotional attachment to it. It is much easier for me to clean “neutral” stuff.

 

But there is also a boundary issue here, especially if she is cleaning your stuff without asking. In me, I call that trait being under-responsible for myself and over-responsible for others.

 

Here is a reality check about messiness from someone in her 50s, who was married a long time. Don’t assume that your girlfriend’s messiness will change. I have five sisters. The three who are neat and orderly have pretty much stayed that way; the two who are very messy have also stayed that way. I went from neat and orderly to messy as I took on too many other things (having a large family, homeschooling, getting divorced, working 2 jobs, etc.). We sisters are all in our 50s and 60s now, so if we haven't changed by now, we are really not going to change! Decide now if you can tolerate her level of messiness.

 

I was less orderly than my ex (he actually had OCD), and that bothered him. It was something he was always trying to change about me. The more kids we had, the more I couldn’t stay on top of it either, and he didn’t help me at all with housework, yardwork, childcare, even though he was unemployed for 2/3 of our marriage (ugh). Don't be that man!

 

JUST GO HAVE SEX, ALREADY!

If you enjoy having sex with her, you find her fundamentally sexually attractive.

 

If the fact that she's not quite as in shape as you'd like her to be is your only problem, I'd say you've got a winner. Have a look into your mind and see whether you can't arrive at a compromise position on this with yourself. Gain some perspective and maybe lose the neurosis a little bit.

 

What you don't want to happen is you lose her because of it, then find yourself out in the wilderness unable to find another woman of such calibre, and without the option of getting her back.

 

Compromise is needed. Perhaps she goes down the gym slightly more, while simultaneously you relax off about it slightly more. You meet in the middle.

 

Meanwhile - go have sex with her, man. That'll lose her some weight. Make her go on top.

 

I included this because Zaphod is supremely practical here. And he is so overtly sexual, it cracks me up. You can always count on Zaphod for the earthy perspective!

 

Youareworthy

[Jabron1]

There's been a lot said, and I'll go back to the basic issue. You've been going out with a girl for 1 year, and, in this short time, she has put on an almost intolerable amount of weight.

 

Repeat after me:

You cannot change women.

You cannot change women.

You cannot change women.

 

So, what to do?

 

You can point at the behaviour, and ask/tell her to change it. She takes you seriously, or she doesn't. I wouldn't expect much in this scenario, but worth a try.

 

I would expect trouble. You'll probably get some of what you have here. It will get turned around on you, and somehow be your fault or responsibility. Emotional manipulation.

 

The problem is likely to get worse, not better. Imagine 5/10 years from now.

 

Be prepared to move on.

[Zaphod]

Hi there, TheMainT,

 

Take a comfortable chair. Brevity is not my gift. Your posts have really spoken to me. I will first give a quote, then my thoughts.

 

SO WHAT IN THE WORLD IS LOVE, ANYWAY?

 

 

There were four kinds of love defined in ancient Greece, upon which our Western notions of love are built. (Full disclosure: I'm a language scholar.)

 

phileo Friendship/brotherly love. The love you have for your best buds, people who are "like brothers." (Philadelphia="City of Brotherly Love")

 

storge Family love. The love you have for relatives: parents, grandparents, children, grandchildren, cousins, nephews and nieces, etc.

 

eros Sexual love. The love for your girlfriend, boyfriend, wife, husband. Sexual desire and passion; physical and emotional intimacy.

 

agape Unconditional love. This kind of love is utterly selfless. It DOES, in fact, accept and receive the one you love precisely as she is. And, as you already know on some intuitive level, this is the Greek verb used whenever Jesus tells his followers he loves them.

 

A successful long-term romantic/love relationship has all four of these. I think you two are well on your way to having a fully fledged 4-fold love:

 

1. Clearly you “eros” your girlfriend. You two have great sex and you get turned on by her beauty; she is hands-down the best lover you've had.

 

2. My guess is that you also share a lot of phileo. You sound like you get along well as friends. You enjoy one another's company, you like hanging out together. She is a follower, you are a leader, and you enjoy initiating the activities of your time together.

 

3. If you ever marry, and especially if you have children together, you will very likely develop the family kind of fondness and love, storge. Ask the couples you know who have been happily married a while if they have this "she/he is my family" companionate love between them.

 

4. It appears to me that tattoobunnie may see that agape is missing. Agape is the kind of love that accepts the beloved entirely, WARTS AND ALL. Agape declares that you see what your girlfriend is, the good and the bad, and you CHOOSE to love her as she is. You CHOOSE to accept every single thing. This unconditional acceptance, this agape is the bedrock of a real and lasting love.

 

But what about constructive change?

This does NOT mean that you cannot bring something up that concerns you, that you hope your girlfriend can see in a different light. People who love one another can and will try to make some changes for each other, some compromises, as Zaphod says. But bringing up something you really want your partner to change, especially something fundamental to their being, should be a rare occurrence, and should be serious enough that you are willing to risk the relationship over it.

 

When you “agape” your girlfriend, your job is to accept and love her.

And if she loves you back with agape, her job is to love and accept you.

 

If you fix anyone, it is yourself. If she fixes anyone, it is herself. You cannot make her fix herself; she cannot make you fix yourself.

 

After my ex-husband and I had been dating/married for 15 years, and in our 7th year of marriage counseling, our therapist finally looked at my husband and said, "You have been trying to change Youareworthy for 15 years now. Are your methods working? Or are you banging your head against a wall? When are you going to stop trying to fix her, and just accept her exactly as she is?" BINGO!

 

INSECURITIES

 

 

Your insecurities

I love that you are trying to be open-minded, to learn. That will lead to the most lasting improvements in your relationship.

 

You know the saying, "If you point a finger at someone, the other four are pointing back at you?" Often the thing we dislike about another is the thing we also dislike about ourselves. Perhaps you can mull that over, and see if you feel anxious about your appearance. What would happen to you if you don't eat well, or if you slack off at the gym, or if you rock a bathing suit with a gut? Has growing up in a beach culture, or being raised with your parents' high standards, made you feel that anything less than nearly perfect is not worthy of respect? Just give some serious thought to what is really going on inside you on this issue. That's all.

(I agree that many, if not most, Americans are overweight and need to eat better.)

 

Her insecurities

 

 

Honestly, she sounds very together overall. But if she is insecure about her weight or fitness, here’s a funny story:

 

A clueless guy had heard his wife express her insecurities about her looks. She was putting on weight, and felt particularly self-conscious about her thighs. The guy, thinking it was his job to fix things, said one evening, "You know, honey, you are always saying you want to slim down your thighs. I am going to the gym tonight. Why don't you come with me? That's a great way to slim your thighs!" The poor schlub had no idea why his wife suddenly got really angry and insulted, and of course refused to go to the gym with him.

 

When I told this comment to a woman friend of mine, a very fit and super-hot psychologist, she said, "If my boyfriend said that to me, I would immediately go bake a pan of brownies and eat the whole thing as comfort food!"

 

The moral of the story:

 

If you are not entirely happy with your girlfriend's physical fitness, eating habits, and steady weight gain, I'll bet you she senses this. It would not surprise me one bit if her current eating habits are actually a subconscious coping strategy; that she is seeking comfort food to make herself feel better because she is picking up on your disapproval, and perhaps has even spotted you checking out other women who have more of the beach bod and the evidence-of-self-discipline that you like.

 

I assume you know that when women feel insecure, they often turn to food for comfort?

 

Here is where agape is so awesome. Once she senses you unconditionally accept everything about her, and have zero agenda to change her, the nonverbal vibes you are currently sending out about her looks will dry up, and any insecurities she has, that may be leading to overeating, will disappear. Recently I lost 45 lbs. It was because I felt unconditionally loved for the first time in decades.

 

Agape makes a person thrive!

 

THE JOKE YOU MISSED

 

 

Translation If she breaks up with you, she doesn't shed any of her own body weight, she loses YOU! If you weight 180 lbs. and she dumps you, she would instantly lose your 180 lbs. from her life.

 

SELF-DISCIPLINE AND CHARACTER

 

 

Here is a life principle: a person’s greatest strength is also his/her greatest weakness.

 

Your girlfriend is easy-going, mellow, not opinionated, and a follower. I am a lot like her. The upsides are, as you say, she is lovely to get along with. She isn’t quarrelsome, fussy, or high-maintenance. You clearly see how excellent these traits are in a relationship, and they appear to match your leadership style well. But I sense already a bit of resentment on your part about being the leader virtually all the time.

 

A person with your girlfriend’s easy-going traits is usually a “do it with you” type, rather than a “take initiate and do it on my own” kind. I am totally a “do it with you” person. I struggle with initiative. I am a great planner, but often lack follow-through. This, in me, relates to ADHD (which, if you are interested in reading more about, I describe in another thread).

 

You have a lot of initiative, and you admire it in others. You value hard work and self-discipline. You see your girlfriend taking initiative in the arena of job-hunting, but not in nutrition and fitness. She will go to the gym with you, she eats well when you eat well with her, but on her own, these behaviors aren’t what she naturally gravitates to for her own sake, right?

 

That is because they are not her top priorities. She knows that exercise and nutrition are important in general and important to you, and she believes that she is being healthy about her exercise and eating, but you see her differently. She is not trying to mislead you, though. Many people talk about what they believe, and really think they are living it, but they are not always consistent between talk and action. Welcome to the human race!

 

GOING TO THE GYM, BUT NO RESULTS

 

 

Her workout style is evidently different from yours. Is she achieving good, but invisible, cardio results, rather than good, and visible, strength training and muscle ripping results?

 

(By the way, if you are into nutrition and exercise, I assume you know that weight loss has little to do with going to the gym, right? It has a lot more to do with food quality and quantity. Time Magazine had an assumption-shattering issue on the relative ineffectiveness of working out on weight loss 4 or 5 years ago, based on years of studies…. It dealt a real blow to the fitness industry. Check it out.)

 

You may not know that exercise, weight loss and weight maintenance methods and their results vary widely between the two genders. In women, weight loss and maintenance has a lot to do with how many hours’ sleep we get per night, and if we have a long enough break between dinner and breakfast (see The Venus Factor for more information on women and the hormone called leptin).

 

Or perhaps she is less focused on “results” and “goals” than you are. That would be a fairly typical male/female difference. Perhaps she enjoys socializing at the gym, and sort of loses focus on any strength or fitness goals she had in going there. That would be me, totally.

 

NUTRITION AND THE FOLLOWER

 

 

So, now it is up to you. Do you want to take the lead, and let her follow, and accept that quality about her? Because she is who she is. Lucky for her if you like to lead (and are not abusive), and you lead her down healthy paths. You will both win!

 

Since I am a follower, when I date someone who is totally into fitness and nutrition, I get that way too, and we both benefit and enjoy that lifestyle together. I am just not that great at initiating exercise when I am alone.

 

CLOTHES

 

 

This is an easy one! Give her the pretty shirts you think will look great on her; you have Christmas, Valentine’s Day, birthday, dating anniversaries. Or just take her shopping one day as a surprise, and pick out some things you like that she may try on. You don’t have to tell her you don’t like her style. She may be like me, totally oblivious to clothes! For some women, clothes are purely utilitarian, and they hate shopping. (Yes, we do exist.)

 

It was not until I was 51 ½, and had just shed the first 30 pounds of the 45 (see The Venus Factor, above), that I paid any attention to clothes at all. My clothes were falling off, and I had to do something serious. I hauled out and tried on every piece of clothing I owned. I looked in a full-length mirror for each item. If I didn’t spontaneously utter, “Wow!” or “Pretty!” when I saw myself in it, I got rid of it. One hundred twelve items of clothing left my home that weekend. They were all hand-me-downs or 20-30 years old. I kept only things that if I were “caught” wearing them, I would be pleased, not embarrassed (I have no baggy sweats!). It felt and still feels amazing, but before the winter of 2014-15, I NEVER noticed my clothes. My current wardrobe comes from Goodwill and Target only, but finally, I look GOOD. And the men (and women, and relatives) around me attest to that.

 

MAKEUP

 

 

I also rarely wear makeup. I only wear it on a "formal" date, to a job interview or audition, when I perform (sing/dance/act) or for photo shoots. Some women just aren’t that fussed about makeup. And some men, including men I have spoken with in private messages on ENA, really don’t like makeup on their women. All the men I have dated have commented that they love that I don’t wear makeup! But for all my thrift store clothing and no makeup, I have very little trouble attracting plenty of male attention.

 

So back to your girlfriend:

 

Do you find her beautiful without makeup? Does her face look beautiful to you? Does her body attract you? If the answers are yes, then “it’s all good.” A little minor tweaking of her clothes is all you need, and that’s easy if you give her things that look awesome on her!

 

I know that sometimes a man feels better about himself when the woman on his arm is very attractive and put together. Is this going through your mind? Are you worried about what others may think about you if your woman is putting on some weight, dresses down, and isn’t wearing makeup?

 

Examine why what she wears and whether she has makeup on is important to you. I am not judging you if it is important—I just think you should consider why.

 

HINTS

 

 

If she is like me, she is probably not getting the hints. I am notoriously bad at reading social cues. I have told my best friends, boyfriends, and kids to tell me things straight, but gently. This works much better for me and for them.

 

But be careful, because when giving hints, or direct but gentle remarks, you may be treading into “I want to change you” territory.

 

DOING THIS TO YOU

 

 

I agree with the other members who have said that she is not doing this TO you. You are, naturally, sensitive to how her appearance affects you, but I sincerely doubt she is trying to hurt or disrespect you. She is simply not wired the way you are about appearance.

 

I DO get that as a man, you would like your mate to present her best visual self to you. But please don’t see her different perspective as an attempt to diss you. See it as a male/female difference.

 

OTHER WOMEN'S BODIES

 

 

Well, you don’t HAVE TO, but I know that it is hard to avoid seeing other women’s bodies, especially in Southern California!!!

More to the point, when you look at those bodies, you see self-discipline and hard work, which you don’t see on your girlfriend’s body.

 

Is it essential to you that the woman you date have self-discipline, determination, and hard work?

 

If so, is it essential that these qualities are manifested in the arena of physical fitness (i.e. in her body)?

 

If your answer to these two questions is yes, then perhaps your girlfriend is not the woman for you, and you do need a vegetarian Pilates-and-yoga woman. There are a lot of those in California. I am not being sarcastic. If this is that important to you, then you need a woman whose fitness and nutrition priorities are more closely aligned to yours.

 

ASSERTIVENESS

 

 

This is the only red flag I have seen, and it is for her, not you. I'm concerned for her, if she is not assertive enough to speak up for her own wishes and needs. Her easy-going nature could lead her to become a doormat, or even to being abused.

 

NEAT VS. MESSY

 

 

She may be overwhelmed by her own stuff. It is always easier to organize and clean other people’s stuff. This is how I am also. When I try to clean up my own stuff, I am hindered by emotional attachment to it. It is much easier for me to clean “neutral” stuff.

 

But there is also a boundary issue here, especially if she is cleaning your stuff without asking. In me, I call that trait being under-responsible for myself and over-responsible for others.

 

Here is a reality check about messiness from someone in her 50s, who was married a long time. Don’t assume that your girlfriend’s messiness will change. I have five sisters. The three who are neat and orderly have pretty much stayed that way; the two who are very messy have also stayed that way. I went from neat and orderly to messy as I took on too many other things (having a large family, homeschooling, getting divorced, working 2 jobs, etc.). We sisters are all in our 50s and 60s now, so if we haven't changed by now, we are really not going to change! Decide now if you can tolerate her level of messiness.

 

I was less orderly than my ex (he actually had OCD), and that bothered him. It was something he was always trying to change about me. The more kids we had, the more I couldn’t stay on top of it either, and he didn’t help me at all with housework, yardwork, childcare, even though he was unemployed for 2/3 of our marriage (ugh). Don't be that man!

 

JUST GO HAVE SEX, ALREADY!

 

 

I included this because Zaphod is supremely practical here. And he is so overtly sexual, it cracks me up. You can always count on Zaphod for the earthy perspective!

 

Youareworthy

 

]

[charity]

Hi there, TheMainT,

 

Take a comfortable chair. Brevity is not my gift. Your posts have really spoken to me. I will first give a quote, then my thoughts.

 

SO WHAT IN THE WORLD IS LOVE, ANYWAY?

 

 

There were four kinds of love defined in ancient Greece, upon which our Western notions of love are built. (Full disclosure: I'm a language scholar.)

 

phileo Friendship/brotherly love. The love you have for your best buds, people who are "like brothers." (Philadelphia="City of Brotherly Love")

 

storge Family love. The love you have for relatives: parents, grandparents, children, grandchildren, cousins, nephews and nieces, etc.

 

eros Sexual love. The love for your girlfriend, boyfriend, wife, husband. Sexual desire and passion; physical and emotional intimacy.

 

agape Unconditional love. This kind of love is utterly selfless. It DOES, in fact, accept and receive the one you love precisely as she is. And, as you already know on some intuitive level, this is the Greek verb used whenever Jesus tells his followers he loves them.

 

A successful long-term romantic/love relationship has all four of these. I think you two are well on your way to having a fully fledged 4-fold love:

 

1. Clearly you “eros” your girlfriend. You two have great sex and you get turned on by her beauty; she is hands-down the best lover you've had.

 

2. My guess is that you also share a lot of phileo. You sound like you get along well as friends. You enjoy one another's company, you like hanging out together. She is a follower, you are a leader, and you enjoy initiating the activities of your time together.

 

3. If you ever marry, and especially if you have children together, you will very likely develop the family kind of fondness and love, storge. Ask the couples you know who have been happily married a while if they have this "she/he is my family" companionate love between them.

 

4. It appears to me that tattoobunnie may see that agape is missing. Agape is the kind of love that accepts the beloved entirely, WARTS AND ALL. Agape declares that you see what your girlfriend is, the good and the bad, and you CHOOSE to love her as she is. You CHOOSE to accept every single thing. This unconditional acceptance, this agape is the bedrock of a real and lasting love.

 

But what about constructive change?

This does NOT mean that you cannot bring something up that concerns you, that you hope your girlfriend can see in a different light. People who love one another can and will try to make some changes for each other, some compromises, as Zaphod says. But bringing up something you really want your partner to change, especially something fundamental to their being, should be a rare occurrence, and should be serious enough that you are willing to risk the relationship over it.

 

When you “agape” your girlfriend, your job is to accept and love her.

And if she loves you back with agape, her job is to love and accept you.

 

If you fix anyone, it is yourself. If she fixes anyone, it is herself. You cannot make her fix herself; she cannot make you fix yourself.

 

After my ex-husband and I had been dating/married for 15 years, and in our 7th year of marriage counseling, our therapist finally looked at my husband and said, "You have been trying to change Youareworthy for 15 years now. Are your methods working? Or are you banging your head against a wall? When are you going to stop trying to fix her, and just accept her exactly as she is?" BINGO!

 

INSECURITIES

 

 

Your insecurities

I love that you are trying to be open-minded, to learn. That will lead to the most lasting improvements in your relationship.

 

You know the saying, "If you point a finger at someone, the other four are pointing back at you?" Often the thing we dislike about another is the thing we also dislike about ourselves. Perhaps you can mull that over, and see if you feel anxious about your appearance. What would happen to you if you don't eat well, or if you slack off at the gym, or if you rock a bathing suit with a gut? Has growing up in a beach culture, or being raised with your parents' high standards, made you feel that anything less than nearly perfect is not worthy of respect? Just give some serious thought to what is really going on inside you on this issue. That's all.

(I agree that many, if not most, Americans are overweight and need to eat better.)

 

Her insecurities

 

 

Honestly, she sounds very together overall. But if she is insecure about her weight or fitness, here’s a funny story:

 

A clueless guy had heard his wife express her insecurities about her looks. She was putting on weight, and felt particularly self-conscious about her thighs. The guy, thinking it was his job to fix things, said one evening, "You know, honey, you are always saying you want to slim down your thighs. I am going to the gym tonight. Why don't you come with me? That's a great way to slim your thighs!" The poor schlub had no idea why his wife suddenly got really angry and insulted, and of course refused to go to the gym with him.

 

When I told this comment to a woman friend of mine, a very fit and super-hot psychologist, she said, "If my boyfriend said that to me, I would immediately go bake a pan of brownies and eat the whole thing as comfort food!"

 

The moral of the story:

 

If you are not entirely happy with your girlfriend's physical fitness, eating habits, and steady weight gain, I'll bet you she senses this. It would not surprise me one bit if her current eating habits are actually a subconscious coping strategy; that she is seeking comfort food to make herself feel better because she is picking up on your disapproval, and perhaps has even spotted you checking out other women who have more of the beach bod and the evidence-of-self-discipline that you like.

 

I assume you know that when women feel insecure, they often turn to food for comfort?

 

Here is where agape is so awesome. Once she senses you unconditionally accept everything about her, and have zero agenda to change her, the nonverbal vibes you are currently sending out about her looks will dry up, and any insecurities she has, that may be leading to overeating, will disappear. Recently I lost 45 lbs. It was because I felt unconditionally loved for the first time in decades.

 

Agape makes a person thrive!

 

THE JOKE YOU MISSED

 

 

Translation If she breaks up with you, she doesn't shed any of her own body weight, she loses YOU! If you weight 180 lbs. and she dumps you, she would instantly lose your 180 lbs. from her life.

 

SELF-DISCIPLINE AND CHARACTER

 

 

Here is a life principle: a person’s greatest strength is also his/her greatest weakness.

 

Your girlfriend is easy-going, mellow, not opinionated, and a follower. I am a lot like her. The upsides are, as you say, she is lovely to get along with. She isn’t quarrelsome, fussy, or high-maintenance. You clearly see how excellent these traits are in a relationship, and they appear to match your leadership style well. But I sense already a bit of resentment on your part about being the leader virtually all the time.

 

A person with your girlfriend’s easy-going traits is usually a “do it with you” type, rather than a “take initiate and do it on my own” kind. I am totally a “do it with you” person. I struggle with initiative. I am a great planner, but often lack follow-through. This, in me, relates to ADHD (which, if you are interested in reading more about, I describe in another thread).

 

You have a lot of initiative, and you admire it in others. You value hard work and self-discipline. You see your girlfriend taking initiative in the arena of job-hunting, but not in nutrition and fitness. She will go to the gym with you, she eats well when you eat well with her, but on her own, these behaviors aren’t what she naturally gravitates to for her own sake, right?

 

That is because they are not her top priorities. She knows that exercise and nutrition are important in general and important to you, and she believes that she is being healthy about her exercise and eating, but you see her differently. She is not trying to mislead you, though. Many people talk about what they believe, and really think they are living it, but they are not always consistent between talk and action. Welcome to the human race!

 

GOING TO THE GYM, BUT NO RESULTS

 

 

Her workout style is evidently different from yours. Is she achieving good, but invisible, cardio results, rather than good, and visible, strength training and muscle ripping results?

 

(By the way, if you are into nutrition and exercise, I assume you know that weight loss has little to do with going to the gym, right? It has a lot more to do with food quality and quantity. Time Magazine had an assumption-shattering issue on the relative ineffectiveness of working out on weight loss 4 or 5 years ago, based on years of studies…. It dealt a real blow to the fitness industry. Check it out.)

 

You may not know that exercise, weight loss and weight maintenance methods and their results vary widely between the two genders. In women, weight loss and maintenance has a lot to do with how many hours’ sleep we get per night, and if we have a long enough break between dinner and breakfast (see The Venus Factor for more information on women and the hormone called leptin).

 

Or perhaps she is less focused on “results” and “goals” than you are. That would be a fairly typical male/female difference. Perhaps she enjoys socializing at the gym, and sort of loses focus on any strength or fitness goals she had in going there. That would be me, totally.

 

NUTRITION AND THE FOLLOWER

 

 

So, now it is up to you. Do you want to take the lead, and let her follow, and accept that quality about her? Because she is who she is. Lucky for her if you like to lead (and are not abusive), and you lead her down healthy paths. You will both win!

 

Since I am a follower, when I date someone who is totally into fitness and nutrition, I get that way too, and we both benefit and enjoy that lifestyle together. I am just not that great at initiating exercise when I am alone.

 

CLOTHES

 

 

This is an easy one! Give her the pretty shirts you think will look great on her; you have Christmas, Valentine’s Day, birthday, dating anniversaries. Or just take her shopping one day as a surprise, and pick out some things you like that she may try on. You don’t have to tell her you don’t like her style. She may be like me, totally oblivious to clothes! For some women, clothes are purely utilitarian, and they hate shopping. (Yes, we do exist.)

 

It was not until I was 51 ½, and had just shed the first 30 pounds of the 45 (see The Venus Factor, above), that I paid any attention to clothes at all. My clothes were falling off, and I had to do something serious. I hauled out and tried on every piece of clothing I owned. I looked in a full-length mirror for each item. If I didn’t spontaneously utter, “Wow!” or “Pretty!” when I saw myself in it, I got rid of it. One hundred twelve items of clothing left my home that weekend. They were all hand-me-downs or 20-30 years old. I kept only things that if I were “caught” wearing them, I would be pleased, not embarrassed (I have no baggy sweats!). It felt and still feels amazing, but before the winter of 2014-15, I NEVER noticed my clothes. My current wardrobe comes from Goodwill and Target only, but finally, I look GOOD. And the men (and women, and relatives) around me attest to that.

 

MAKEUP

 

 

I also rarely wear makeup. I only wear it on a "formal" date, to a job interview or audition, when I perform (sing/dance/act) or for photo shoots. Some women just aren’t that fussed about makeup. And some men, including men I have spoken with in private messages on ENA, really don’t like makeup on their women. All the men I have dated have commented that they love that I don’t wear makeup! But for all my thrift store clothing and no makeup, I have very little trouble attracting plenty of male attention.

 

So back to your girlfriend:

 

Do you find her beautiful without makeup? Does her face look beautiful to you? Does her body attract you? If the answers are yes, then “it’s all good.” A little minor tweaking of her clothes is all you need, and that’s easy if you give her things that look awesome on her!

 

I know that sometimes a man feels better about himself when the woman on his arm is very attractive and put together. Is this going through your mind? Are you worried about what others may think about you if your woman is putting on some weight, dresses down, and isn’t wearing makeup?

 

Examine why what she wears and whether she has makeup on is important to you. I am not judging you if it is important—I just think you should consider why.

 

HINTS

 

 

If she is like me, she is probably not getting the hints. I am notoriously bad at reading social cues. I have told my best friends, boyfriends, and kids to tell me things straight, but gently. This works much better for me and for them.

 

But be careful, because when giving hints, or direct but gentle remarks, you may be treading into “I want to change you” territory.

 

DOING THIS TO YOU

 

 

I agree with the other members who have said that she is not doing this TO you. You are, naturally, sensitive to how her appearance affects you, but I sincerely doubt she is trying to hurt or disrespect you. She is simply not wired the way you are about appearance.

 

I DO get that as a man, you would like your mate to present her best visual self to you. But please don’t see her different perspective as an attempt to diss you. See it as a male/female difference.

 

OTHER WOMEN'S BODIES

 

 

Well, you don’t HAVE TO, but I know that it is hard to avoid seeing other women’s bodies, especially in Southern California!!!

More to the point, when you look at those bodies, you see self-discipline and hard work, which you don’t see on your girlfriend’s body.

 

Is it essential to you that the woman you date have self-discipline, determination, and hard work?

 

If so, is it essential that these qualities are manifested in the arena of physical fitness (i.e. in her body)?

 

If your answer to these two questions is yes, then perhaps your girlfriend is not the woman for you, and you do need a vegetarian Pilates-and-yoga woman. There are a lot of those in California. I am not being sarcastic. If this is that important to you, then you need a woman whose fitness and nutrition priorities are more closely aligned to yours.

 

ASSERTIVENESS

 

 

This is the only red flag I have seen, and it is for her, not you. I'm concerned for her, if she is not assertive enough to speak up for her own wishes and needs. Her easy-going nature could lead her to become a doormat, or even to being abused.

 

NEAT VS. MESSY

 

 

She may be overwhelmed by her own stuff. It is always easier to organize and clean other people’s stuff. This is how I am also. When I try to clean up my own stuff, I am hindered by emotional attachment to it. It is much easier for me to clean “neutral” stuff.

 

But there is also a boundary issue here, especially if she is cleaning your stuff without asking. In me, I call that trait being under-responsible for myself and over-responsible for others.

 

Here is a reality check about messiness from someone in her 50s, who was married a long time. Don’t assume that your girlfriend’s messiness will change. I have five sisters. The three who are neat and orderly have pretty much stayed that way; the two who are very messy have also stayed that way. I went from neat and orderly to messy as I took on too many other things (having a large family, homeschooling, getting divorced, working 2 jobs, etc.). We sisters are all in our 50s and 60s now, so if we haven't changed by now, we are really not going to change! Decide now if you can tolerate her level of messiness.

 

I was less orderly than my ex (he actually had OCD), and that bothered him. It was something he was always trying to change about me. The more kids we had, the more I couldn’t stay on top of it either, and he didn’t help me at all with housework, yardwork, childcare, even though he was unemployed for 2/3 of our marriage (ugh). Don't be that man!

 

JUST GO HAVE SEX, ALREADY!

 

 

I included this because Zaphod is supremely practical here. And he is so overtly sexual, it cracks me up. You can always count on Zaphod for the earthy perspective!

 

Youareworthy

 

I'm not sure why OP didn't respond to this post.

 

AMAZING advice, educational and insightful. Posts like this are why I come to ENA after all these years.

[youareworthy]

Thank you, Charity!

 

I think the OP had stopped reading the advice on his thread before I posted mine. It did take a whole day to write, so it came in late... Or perhaps he saw a massively long post and didn't have the heart to wade through it. Better yet, he read it and is so busy putting it into practice that he doesn't have time to write back! I write to really help someone, not to get a response (though knowing the OP is reading what you have to say is comforting), so I just hope he has read and digested it.

 

I am glad that you found it educational, insightful and amazing (I am blushing now).

 

I learned all of this while getting my PhD from UHK, the University of Hard Knocks! (Well, the Greek I learned from books.)

 

Thanks again for your feedback. I am so happy when my bad life experiences help others avoid the same pain.

 

Youareworthy

[Zaphod]

Thank you, Charity!

 

I think the OP had stopped reading the advice on his thread before I posted mine.

 

Yeah they always do. Seems they miss all the good bits.

 

*** Joe Pesci Voice*** :

 

"Whayagonnado? Eh? Whayagonnado?" . "Kwup of Kwoffee"...

[tattoobunnie]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]11139[/ATTACH]

 

People can tune out when it's time to face themselves - and always of course when they're not ready. It's easier to throw stones.