Struggling with no marriage relationship

[aliceunderice]

hi DoF, yeah. Knowing the story of my partner, the system is in the UK is *hugely* weighted against men. They get *screwed* BUT there is a situation a woman can get seriously screwed too.

 

That situation is when your ex who you were not married to, is an abusive, sociopathic with a lot more money than you, who wants to use the court system to make you spend money, defending your child and yourself against an abusive arsehole, who is not interested in the wellbeing of the child you had together but wants to screw you as much as possible financially and emotionally, with lies and frivolous court action. The court system in the UK does not know how to deal with sociopathic people. Men and women are exposed to these people. Men if you marry one and women if you don't marry one.

 

I have been there and cannot go there again. Then again by freaking out about not getting married I am kind of saying to my current partner, who has a lot more money than me "I think you might be an abusive sociopath who will try to make sure I have nothing through the courts using your financial advantage to grind me into the ground", which he feels a bit offended about I guess.

[aliceunderice]

heya DoF, yeah the thing is we would like another kid. I feel too exposed given the way the court system works to do that without marriage. Especially given I'm in a weak financial position after previous court action by my ex. Would I be being really reckless to say screw it and get pregnant without any real security from my new partner. Espcially given I already have a child to consider. Yes probably.

[mhowe]

Yes, you would be reckless. Why on earth would you bring a child into a union that you cannot legalize given what has already happened to you and your first child?

[aliceunderice]

Quote Originally Posted by itsallgrand View Post

"I don't know. I think a man (or woman!) who is gun shy about commitment would probably have that increased by having a partner move in with them due to financials, rather than because you came to that agreement together as an act of progressing the relationship. Does this make sense? It makes sense to me. He's worried about being used for his money, and then you did (I won't use the word use, but you had the bf help you out financially by way of allowing you to live with him) sort of reinforce his idea of how women roll.

 

I think moving out, if anything, and showing him you walk on your own two feet without issue, gives the bit of hope you are looking for that he may feel differently at some point in time.

 

But I think going off what he tells you now is the smart thing to do, always. No marriage, no prenup, no common law agreement (or equivalent). Time to move on.

Great points IMO. Build his confidence WITH ACTION.

 

Currently, he is pretty confident that he will get totally screwed!"

 

 

Actually when I moved in by luck I landed a job that same month and contributed almost all of my earnings the first couple of months. I have been contributing half of my earnings. So he knows I pull my weight financially. One problem is that I will never be able to contribute enough because I would be overextending myself. I can't afford his lifestyle and still have anything left at the end of the month. So far I am £ 2000 down after living with him for a year. He offered for me to pay less, but I did not want to do that, as some of my expenditure was legal fees. Even so I only have about £200 left at the end of the month after contributing to the joint finances and everything I need to pay for. So I am not able to build up any security for myself at the moment despite being on 30 k per year now. What do you think?

[mhowe]

I think that since you have 200 currency left at the end of the month, it would be reprehensible to add another child to this "union".

[Andrina]

You have two choices. One is to break up and find a man who wants the exact same things as you. That'll take at least several years, possibly many more since dating is a frustrating, time consuming experience, and I don't know how old you are and if you're on the verge of biologically making it difficult to get pregnant or not.

 

If you choose to stay, the only way I see it working is if you are willing to give up the idea of more children. Yes, children are a joy, but they are also a source of great stress and they take away time/focus from your partner. If you chose to not have children with him, you could come to a financial agreement so that he pays the majority of the bills so that your income can be invested and put into savings, so that if he died before you, you'd have enough money to rent or buy your own home, and have enough for retirement. If he wouldn't agree to a financial agreement where you are financially stable if he dies, then he really doesn't love you.

[aliceunderice]

hi mhowe, that's just my personal finances. He has thousands left at the end of a month when he is working, but other months he doesn't work. Together we can afford it, but it is me that cannot build up any significant savings in my own name. He says maybe we could get an investment property and he would put it in my name rather than being married. Any opinions?

[mhowe]

Except that he won't marry you. So the chances of this "union" not lasting, and the chances of you having to support the child as a single mother --- well, you know the drill.

 

He is attempting to buy you off. I don't think I would accept that offer.

[itsallgrand]

I think it's important to bring financial stability to a serious relationship. Your own personal. Both people need to take care of that first, their own ends, before joining together.

That's just my personal standard.

[aliceunderice]

hi mhowe, it certainly does feel that way

[DoF]

hi DoF, yeah. Knowing the story of my partner, the system is in the UK is *hugely* weighted against men. They get *screwed* BUT there is a situation a woman can get seriously screwed too.

 

That situation is when your ex who you were not married to, is an abusive, sociopathic with a lot more money than you, who wants to use the court system to make you spend money, defending your child and yourself against an abusive arsehole, who is not interested in the wellbeing of the child you had together but wants to screw you as much as possible financially and emotionally, with lies and frivolous court action. The court system in the UK does not know how to deal with sociopathic people. Men and women are exposed to these people. Men if you marry one and women if you don't marry one.

 

I have been there and cannot go there again. Then again by freaking out about not getting married I am kind of saying to my current partner, who has a lot more money than me "I think you might be an abusive sociopath who will try to make sure I have nothing through the courts using your financial advantage to grind me into the ground", which he feels a bit offended about I guess.

 

Great reasons to get married/protect yourself. In that case, by all means require marriage (can't blame you).

[DoF]

I think it's important to bring financial stability to a serious relationship. Your own personal. Both people need to take care of that first, their own ends, before joining together.

That's just my personal standard.

 

Agreed 100%, I wouldn't even consider dating a person that can't hold their own.

[aliceunderice]

heya itsallgrand, one thing that kind of bugs me is household expenditure here is huge like 4 k per month and I contribute as much as I can, but then I've got little left at the end of the month to save for myself. This part makes me slightly uncomfortable. Here he says "well you would not have any more than that left over, if you were living by yourself". This is true, but if I were in a partnership with someone more on my economic level, I would be saving more money than I am here. If I carry on like this here I will build up little in my own name, no house, no marriage, not much savings. hmmmm. True I would not be able to do so by myself anyway but would need to be together with someone where we could share all that equitably.

 

He says he is willing to take care of things in this regard, e.g., cohabitation agreement, but seems to be moving pretty slowly in my eyes at least. There are not many women out there who can contribute equitably to that kind of expenditure. I'm doing what I can, but even on an above average wage, I have little left over after buying stuff for my son, contributing to the joint account etc. I don't spend much on myself. I've got something behind me but nothing compared to him really.

 

The thing of him saying, well you would not be any better off living by yourself made me uncomfortable. Any opinions?

[itsallgrand]

You need to do what you have to take care of yourself first. And not depend on anyone else for those things - making sure you have emergency savings, regular savings, money for a child if you want to have a child, retirement, etc.

 

What could you do to get ahead financially? Your efforts would be better focused there than trying to convince him to marry you, IMO. Have your own back and then you won't make the mistake a lot of people do of thinking money and love are one and the same - they aren't at all.

[Feast]

I'm reading this all and a few thoughts come to mind. First of all, there should be faith that the two of you will work together happily married. I read this and it seems like divorce in inevitable, hopefully that's not the mindset. I know this is all complicated by both you having traumatic prior relationships, but at a certain point you have to put that aside and take that risk again.

 

I would sit down with him, using help if need be, and figure out the goals each of you wants out of the relationship. You want marriage, he wants financial security if divorced, etc. Get that figured out pretty precisely. Then go to a financial advisor and figure out how those goals can be accomplished. If prenups don't work in the UK then maybe asset management in another country, in his name only, maybe something like that, there's got to be a way for him to set aside $ that will not be seized. Maybe he can transfer $ to a trusted sibling or parent?

 

I think you are right to want marriage especially before children, I wouldn't let that go at all.

 

It is possible that since you are already living together unmarried, he is happy with the status quo and is being needlessly difficult about marriage. So it's possible that he just won't work with you on this, if this becomes the case you need to leave. You can't have a child unmarried and you can't stay in this relationship where you are living beyond your means.

[mhowe]

This is true, but if I were in a partnership with someone more on my economic level, I would be saving more money than I am here.

 

Ok --- he said to you "if you were living on your own", you wouldn't be saving any more.

 

You have said ^^^ to us here ----- if your partnership were with an equal.

 

And that is the crux of the matter. You are not financial equals and he has no intention of marrying you.

[aliceunderice]

Thanks Feast. Yeah the situation is that he agrees to do something like that go to a financial advisor or solicitor to discuss what can be done in detail. I'm not sure anyone can 100% protect their assets in the UK. Then it starts to come down to well, it's pretty much safe, there is a prenup kind which will *probably* be followed, and some risks are offset, but you still won't marry me, which I think might happen. I'll feel hurt at that point. I guess at that point I might need to walk away. He wants absolute certainty not to lose the house he wants his daughter to have and he may never have that 100% certainty. We'll see.

[aliceunderice]

Hi mhowe, yes you are right

[aliceunderice]

I'm reading this all and a few thoughts come to mind. First of all, there should be faith that the two of you will work together happily married. I read this and it seems like divorce in inevitable, hopefully that's not the mindset. I know this is all complicated by both you having traumatic prior relationships, but at a certain point you have to put that aside and take that risk again.

 

I would sit down with him, using help if need be, and figure out the goals each of you wants out of the relationship. You want marriage, he wants financial security if divorced, etc. Get that figured out pretty precisely. Then go to a financial advisor and figure out how those goals can be accomplished. If prenups don't work in the UK then maybe asset management in another country, in his name only, maybe something like that, there's got to be a way for him to set aside $ that will not be seized. Maybe he can transfer $ to a trusted sibling or parent?

 

I think you are right to want marriage especially before children, I wouldn't let that go at all.

 

It is possible that since you are already living together unmarried, he is happy with the status quo and is being needlessly difficult about marriage. So it's possible that he just won't work with you on this, if this becomes the case you need to leave. You can't have a child unmarried and you can't stay in this relationship where you are living beyond your means.

 

Hi Feast, I think we would be together forever and it be really good. Everything is really good, but I have started to feel bad about the committment marriage thing, compounded by previous experiences.

 

He has responded by offering to do what you suggest go to a professional and come to a detailed agreement. I also think that he is a good man. For example he has an ex girlfriend with a chronic illness who he pays £100 per month to to help with her rent, and he is devoted to his daughter's wellbeing, so there is no reason for me to think he would turn into a crazy person if we split up. Despite this, I would be happy to continue the status quo with no children but not with another child, I do want marriage. I really believe he is a decent, honest person. I would bet that if I can quieten my nerves about this issue, we'll still be together at 90, but this issue in itself is causing friction. The trouble with this sort of thing is that once you start to get upset about it you are reducing the chances there will be any marriage. I kind of wish I could just not feel bad about it and wait it out for a year or two, but I am feeling stressed about the issue.

[Gossamyr]

Here's my story

 

He asked me once over fried chicken and spaghetti in a fast food restaurant (erck). I should've said yes that very moment - maybe it'll make that random thought of his , well, uhm, not so random? But I wanted champagne , gourmet and a mothering ring. Naah, since when did "what I want" became the paramount of anyone else's orbit anyway?

 

Worst part is..

 

I'm pregnant.

[bulletproof]

...so there is no reason for me to think he would turn into a crazy person if we split up.

 

This is faulty logic. I'm sure you didn't think the things that happened with your ex would happen.

 

I'm with those that say you have to approach this entire situation as though the other person could disappear tomorrow. If you feel that you could support another child on your own comfortably, pay off your debt, live the way you'd like, all on your own, then have another child. But don't depend on anyone else's support, period. Even if he does marry you it's no guarantee. Unexpected things happen all the time, as you know.

 

I think you need to prioritize. Get your current situation with your ex in order, get your finances in order, etc. And then maybe approach the marriage subject. At least then you'll be approaching him as a self-sufficient woman who doesn't need marriage, but wants it.

[abitbroken]

Honestly, I think you should move out. This man doesn't want to marry you. If you want a child, you should find someone who would love to marry you. And its probably not you - its anybody. I would seek counseling and work through your own divorce baggage and I would move out. The fact that if you had a kid he honestly feels all his money would go to his daughter and his child with you would get nothing is just so callous. Its not about any great inheritence, but making sure both kids are fed and clothed and get the same shot at education. Its like anything that would come from you would be less than. I would want a man who would feel honored to be the father of my child and would want to take care of that child just as I would, as well. I would also pretty much guarantee if the household broke up, he would craftily figure out how to not give you your fair share of what you worked towards.

[abitbroken]

He has responded by offering to do what you suggest go to a professional and come to a detailed agreement. I also think that he is a good man. For example he has an ex girlfriend with a chronic illness who he pays £100 per month to to help with her rent, and he is devoted to his daughter's wellbeing, so there is no reason for me to think he would turn into a crazy person if we split up.

 

Making payments to an ex girlfriend, too? Heck no. I can sympathize with her situation, but there are other ways to help - a one time gift when they split, etc, rather than being tied to her. Or helping her get services when they were freshly split. Also, have to investigated as to whether the split was due to her illness - ie, what would he do if you lost your figure, your health, etc, would you be yesterdays' news too?

[mhowe]

My mother used to send a couple hundred a month to a waitress we knew that came down with a brain tumor. She was divorced with 2 kids. I don't fault him on being generous to someone in his life who is less fortunate.

[aliceunderice]

Just had a slightly new development. So I am working from home, and a new contract just came up for a permanent position which they want to give to me. Now things are going through HR, new boss just called to say they want me to work in the office a couple of days every two weeks where I was living before I moved here. This is near Oxford, UK, and is 140 miles away from where I am living now with my partner, Suffolk, UK.

 

Just a few minutes ago boss called to say I would need to go in a few days every couple of weeks. It's a pretty long trip to get there 300 mile round trip, would need to stay at parents/get hotel on those days I was in the laboratory. I would also be spending less time with my son. Bearing in mind that there is a court order, and any of this could go in front of a court in the future renegotiating custody with my ex, and I'm concerned it might not look great to say to a court the mother is not even with the son 3 days out of 14. My new partner is willing to pick him up from school on those days, but I will have increased travel costs, and possibly childcare costs. I don't have any security from this guy who will not offer marriage, and I am making it difficult to continue my very specialised career which I worked really hard for with a PhD, and there is no marriage on the cards. I moved out here kind of believing he would marry me and we would have children. From all the talk that's what I thought, but given he will not marry me, maybe I go back and do my own thing again.

 

I'm very tempted right now to throw in the towel and move back across the country. This is not what I was hoping for moving here. Perhaps I should move back to take this research job, and say look if and when there is marriage on the cards, I will think about moving back down to Suffolk, but until then I'm doing my own thing. I could go into the office every day and be there to pick my son up from school. As it is now I would need to stay away from home at least a day per week and travel across the country, possibly buy myself a new car, and take a wage cut for travel costs. Any thoughts?