Struggling with no marriage relationship

[Ms Darcy]

Have you ever heard of analysis paralysis? It's a reference to Hamlet where he spent so much time thinking that he did nothing.

 

We probably aren't helping by getting into philosophical discussions about his mortgage. What you should focus on is your core values. You said marriage and children are your core values. Then his mortgage isn't pertinent to your core values.

 

Core values are ones that do not change with the man you are with. If it does, then it means that your core value is to find a relationship that means a lot to you.

 

P.s. it's disappointing that your dad is not asking you these questions. My dad never let me be someone else's baby mama after the first bad experience.

[journeynow]

At other times, though, he seems quite rigid about having things set up as more of a roommate arrangement, which I don't view as compatible with talking about having children together, so I get mixed messages on this front too. I remember him saying the money you are saving by being here needs to be split between us. The way he tends to look at it, he wants to split the benefits with me, so if I am saving a certain amount of money by being here versus on my own, he sees it as fair that if I am profiting from being here, then he should profit by the same amount versus him being on his own. I remember this being one of the first points, where I thought, hang on a minute I'm not sure about that.

 

Roommate arrangement AND him splitting your "savings" doesn't make sense. Roommate = you pay rent. That makes sense, since your name is not on the mortgage and homeowners insurance. You pay, and in the end you do not own, which is just like renting, so call it rent.

 

" The money you are saving by being here" is hypothetical, because he has a standard of living that is not natural to your level of income, so you are not saving by being there, you are living up and spending up, stressing your income in a different way than you would alone. My understanding, anyway.

 

Stop talking about having children with him. It's not about who has more money, or what's fair to whom. I think it is about incompatibility, which is why you are having a tough time and going around in circles in your own mind. If you have different goals and values, that equals incompatibility. Love and companionship are one thing, but living together and raising children together works better when you are compatible. (Love does not conquer all.) Having children does not guarantee that you will stay together or that you will resolve the differences.

[aliceunderice]

I think with a cohabitation agreement that gives me some of the benefits of a marriage, but without the risks to him in terms of getting his pre-existing assets split, even weighted in his favour for post agreement stuff if we split up, I would feel safe to have a child with him. I do want marriage but that brings lots of risks to him I can understand him not wanting to take. If for all intents and purposes I have most of the benefits of being married in a legally binding cohabitation agreement, given how much I love him, perhaps I can live with that. I really do love him, and part of it is a romantic yearning to marry the person I really love, and also of feeling bad about having children outside of marriage too. He tells me all the time that he wants to marry me, even promises that he will but it may take a long time i.e., beyond the timeframe for children. He says he does believe marriage is the right thing when children are involved and it's not that he doesn't want to but that he can't. I would have been more flexible about it not being married before children 10 years ago, but that was before the bad previous experience. Marriage is important to me, but I think if I can have some assurances in terms of financial security in this relationship that are kind of equivalent, then maybe being with someone where I can't imagine ever loving anyone else that much again becomes the most important thing. I really do genuinely love this particular person and just can't imagine even trying again with anyone else.

 

I think though, if I felt safe financially as it were, with a legally binding cohabitation agreement, given how good the relationship is on a day-to-day basis, I would regret not having stayed with him as an old woman. I think I'm coming back to wait to see how this goes in terms of us sitting down and coming up with the cohabitation agreement, and potential future prenup, and see how I feel then. He has promised to do this and it will not be that long in the future.

 

I don't know. I am very confused.

[aliceunderice]

Ms Darcy, by baby mama you mean I guess child out of wedlock and it going wrong. Did you have a similar experience yourself and then vow to only settle for the proper marriage and children option next time?

[abitbroken]

Have you ever heard of analysis paralysis? It's a reference to Hamlet where he spent so much time thinking that he did nothing.

 

We probably aren't helping by getting into philosophical discussions about his mortgage. What you should focus on is your core values. You said marriage and children are your core values. Then his mortgage isn't pertinent to your core values.

 

Core values are ones that do not change with the man you are with. If it does, then it means that your core value is to find a relationship that means a lot to you.

 

P.s. it's disappointing that your dad is not asking you these questions. My dad never let me be someone else's baby mama after the first bad experience.

 

Then again, I don't know if dad knows she wants another child.

 

I will say after my divorce and after I met someone great, my parents weren't banking on me marrying again. So it may be that dad doesn't want to broach the subject - thinking that by talking about marriage would sound like he is "pushing her". But yeah, if my dad heard that I was thinking about having a baby with a man who was not in love with me and wanted to make me his wife first and foremost and whether I was actually able to have a baby physically would be explored after the fact (he would want me whether I was able to have kids or whether we tried and couldn't) he would have a talk with me that he loved and respected me but he would want me to have more sense in my head.

 

Listen to yourself though - you are now saying "okay lets see what he has in mind about a cohabitation agreement" and changing your core values and putting your desires aside to fit into his world, rather than sticking your guns "i am young enough to have more kids. I really want the chance to have another one and I want to be with a guy who would love to marry me" and you don't stay with him unless he truly wants to marry you. If you are with a great guy who wants to marry you - if you found you were not able to have another, you could also adopt, but at 34, most women can and do have more babies - even multiple. My aunt had 4 kids in her late 30s to 41.

 

I suggest you read up on codependency. It is important to do as a survivor of abuse, as well. when you are downplaying your true needs that you know are in your heart to tow the line - you will only be miserable later. I could see if you were 43 and said "well, I would love to have another child, but i may have to hang that dream up" but you are 34. And even if you were in your 40s, don't give up on the dream of a man who wants to fully commit to you and your child

[abitbroken]

I think with a cohabitation agreement that gives me some of the benefits of a marriage, but without the risks to him in terms of getting his pre-existing assets split, even weighted in his favour for post agreement stuff if we split up, I would feel safe to have a child with him.

 

No risk, no reward. We all risk when we commit fully to someone - we put our heart, our feelings, everything on the line. Marriage and relationships end when we do NOT risk and put everything on the line - when we only give a little of ourselves, when we hold back. When we do that, we keep our true desires (and I don't mean sexual) from eachother - and you hear someone's husband leaving to fulfill his lifelong dream that the wife had never heard of before, or someone leaves on the kids issue. THey might have been ambivalent in order to keep and attract the other person, but when they realize that they are squashing their heart's desire for a family - OR the opppsite, they were just "yes"ing the other person, but truly are scared of having children enough to leave the marriage, that is what happens.

 

This guy is telling you constantly how he is out to protect himself. And he was very clear he might be a sperm donor for the second child, but this second child would be more because you wanted a child - he doesn't plan to treat this child equally to his daughter. And this is not fair.

[aliceunderice]

Thanks for all your comments everyone

[Ms Darcy]

Ms Darcy, by baby mama you mean I guess child out of wedlock and it going wrong. Did you have a similar experience yourself and then vow to only settle for the proper marriage and children option next time?

 

No, I haven't had a baby out of wedlock and a bad experience.

 

I should rephrase. You of all people should know how risky it is to have a child without marriage .... emotionally and financially. If your dad knew that you are considering having another baby without marriage, he would probably be very concerned.

 

I think you are going around in circles. You still.haven't answered the question about what your core values are: marriage and children or this guy? Because you can't have both.

 

Personally, this is one of those areas where I have seen friends BURNED in this way over and over. If you think a few years and another kid is worth the risk of him leaving you in the future, you are LYING to yourself. I got married to a fantastic guy so I don't care, but I had an ex like yours who was buried financially after divorce .... with three kids. He was wishy washy about Marriage. He got married this year. We talked briefly on Facebook and we both agreed that the decision to marry is a no-brainer when it's with the right person.

 

To be honest, if he thought you were going to be the woman of his life, he would be more serious about Marriage either now or when he's got xyz done.

 

If he is telling you he wants to marry you and then backs out, that is even worse to me. That means he's dangling a carrot to keep you around. A man who wants to marry you makes it happen. A man who doesn't, doesn't.

[aliceunderice]

Last night I asked him again about the splitting the house between current daughter and future child. I asked him again, "So if the house is all there was, are you saying your daughter would get the house and our future child nothing?", he said that "yes". I was saying this is awful, and he was saying that well the older child would be 9 and the youngest a few months so how can you compare. I was kind of like ? At this point I told him we're done and he said fine, which we both later backtracked on.

 

We weren't really shouting at each other but obviously agitated. We started talking it through. He said he didn't like being threatened with that and I shouldn't say it unless I really mean it. I said that is a clear red line for me, if you are saying the inheritance wouldn't be split fairly with our future child. Then he was saying it can't happen anyway because he has life insurance, and should have asked him about that before telling him we're done. Then he was saying there would be some capital for a future child and he wouldn't leave us without. Look how generous he is, and that children are the most important thing in the world to him, so of course he would provide. I was pushing him on the "yeah, but if the house you want your daughter to have is all there is", he said "there would be capital but nowhere near 50-50, to our child, because his daughter has been so disadvantaged. I was telling him but "yeah don't you think our child would be disadvantaged, if the dad had dropped dead and was being raised by me as a single parent with sod all inheritance from you?". Then he said he might change how he feels when the child is here and his feeling about the house could change. I said of course I can't have a child on that basis. He was saying it's unlikely the house would be everything, I can build up enough capital so she can keep the house she was born in and there is plenty left over for a future child. He was angry I was picking a case which I know is a red line for him i.e., his daughter gets the house that he has battled through the divorce courts to keep for 5 years no matter what.

 

I said I am concerned we will never be seen as equal to your daughter, and he was saying how much he loves me and would love a future child. That I should know he would never leave anyone in need, look how he treats other people. He was saying before all the trouble this week his head was at doing all this with a prenup arrangement and getting married, but after all the arguments, he has kind of thought whoa what was I thinking, keep sight of that really dangerous thing, getting married.

 

I told him after all this I am even more set of having marriage if there is to be any child. No marriage, no child, and I don't like his views on inheritance, and if he thinks he is going to write our child out of his will, which his what he is effectively saying then no way. He said he would provide for the child, but other stuff he said completely contradicts this.

 

I do really love this guy, but he cannot give me what I want which is having someone who would really love to marry me, marry me and having another child, and if they have a previous family to be treated as equal to that family.

 

He says contradictory things. My feeling is that he is so hung up on his daughter, how she has been taken away and damaged, and all the disadvantage she has, that his desire to protect her and never to risk her wellbeing any further outweighs everything else. He tells me he absolutely will marry me, and he does not know whether that would be before or after children, but maybe there will be a way.

 

Bascially what I'm thinking is that at least finally, I've got the measure of the situation and there is no wishful thinking about what he might or might not be thinking. I'm not at all comfortable with his attitude. Absolutely straight up if you ask someone if we have a child and the house is all there is in terms of money when you die, absolutely the only possible acceptable answer for me is well the money in that house would need to be split equitably between both children. I don't care how many years you went through court to keep the house for your daughter, I'm talking about a situation where there is another child who deserves just as much. I don't particularly care either if it is a hypothetical situation that is unlikely to happen. That is just the absolute wrong answer for me.

 

He was saying I feel like you've cornered me and are extrapolating my values from something which you know is kind of my pressure point, and I don't feel that's fair. You know children are the most important thing to me and I would do anything to make sure all my children are OK. What he is saying just does not make sense. Fair enough he battled for years to keep the house for his daughter, but at the end of the day she will just sell it as soon as she's old enough. It's like he is kind of tied up in the past and this house represents his daughter and what was lost and he wants to keep hold of it, and give her childhood home back to her. Trouble is that doesn't really fit with starting a new family. I'm happy to say fine I've got no claim to it, but really unless there is so much money around it is irrelevant, I'm not happy to say our future child has no claim to it.

 

I genuinely love this person and I don't want to find anyone else. Today my head is at thinking, right forget children with this guy. If he wants me he needs to a) marry me, b) build up enough assets so that our child gets their fair share or b) create a will to that effect. None of that may ever happen. I'm happy enough here as things are if I can just forget about children, and stop waiting for this guy to be the person he is not, and hoping and then being bitterly disappointed as his attitude gradually comes to light. I've got the full measure of his attitude now. I do love him and can live with not having children if the right conditions are not met. If it's really important to him he will sort things out for that to happen.

 

He has contacts that got him a job in the City in finance who think they can link me up with a new much better paid job that is flexible. I can't keep working in science just above my cost base. If I move away to live alone where this job is I won't be able to save anything. If I stay here with this science job it's a pain and I can't save much. I think it's time for a career change to something with decent money, forget about kids, bank some money and just stay here with the person I love, and stop expecting any more from him. I would be sad to have no more children and not marry him. There is more of a chance if I am more his financial equal, and we put some money away so he can give the house to his daughter. At the same time I don't expect it from him. I feel much better in myself thinking along these lines, so I guess that's the resolution. I feel crap waiting for someone else to do something to fulfil my dream of having a husband and children with him. How much I love this guy there is no one else for me. I don't want marriage and children with someone else. He is loyal so I think he'll stick around. If he doesn't I'll have my own security and I didn't want kids with anyone else anyway.

[mhowe]

I don't see how you can see a future with him at this point.

[abitbroken]

He has contacts that got him a job in the City in finance who think they can link me up with a new much better paid job that is flexible.

 

What happened to the job that you were offered closer back to your home town. Don't tell me you turned it down. It is a good opportune time to go take it. He can take it as you are going away to get your head clear OR a breakup. Whatever he wants to take it as.

 

I wouldn't accept his offer to "find you a job" - especially if its not in your field.

 

Actually, the right answer is not "will the house be split between the two children" if he died but as the WIFE, you would get the house to ensure you could live out your elderly days without the stress of wondering where you would live - that would be a roof for you and ALL three kids should they be minors when he passed. Or the house would be sold and you would buy a marital home that would go to the survivor. Whatever extra money he had - fine, set up a trust for the kids, but if he is saying his widow would be booted and on the streets in favor of the daughter he is messed in the head.

 

But when it boils to it, it doesn't matter what he thinks about splitting things if he dies, it boils down to that if he wanted to love and cherish you forever, he would talk about not being able to wait to marry you. But its not - its all about seeing if you will have a kid without being married and addressing his guilt for the custody battle by favoring his first child. He is basically telling you what the divorce settlement would be for you or what the settlement would be if you cohabitated and ended things.

[abitbroken]

I said I am concerned we will never be seen as equal to your daughter, and he was saying how much he loves me and would love a future child. That I should know he would never leave anyone in need, look how he treats other people.

 

"leaving anyone in need?" If he loves you and wants a future child, he should be down on one knee with a ring, or already should have been not "oh look, see i am always helping my colleagues and never leaving anyone high and dry".

 

 

e tells me he absolutely will marry me, and he does not know whether that would be before or after children, but maybe there will be a way.

 

Translation: I won't marry you, but I am going to toss out breadcrumbs that I MIGHT just so you will agree to be knocked up. Then I will tell you that its just a piece of paper that we don't need and you are already living here and have a child so you won't leave anyway so why bother?

 

"maybe there will be a way I have to talk to my attorneys to make sure I am not financially obligated to you or this child.

 

If he was so guilty about his daughter, he should have thought about that before he married someone incompatible OR went to marriage counseling and tried to make the marriage work even if that meant changing his lifestyle somewhat. It takes two to tango. Past is past now. Does he have an explanation what HIS part in the breakdown of the marriage was? If he hasn't been to any sort of counseling to bring that to light and is walking around with this much baggage, he needs to do it.

 

If he suddenly comes back with a proposal, I honestly would not accept it. I would go look for a place to stay out near the new job or ask mom if you can move in for a month or two so you can hunt for a place once you are there and just tell him when you are packing your bags or the truck is at the door.

[aliceunderice]

thanks abitbroken for your thoughts on this. Do you really think it's that bad I should just pack my bags and leave?

 

I've found some peace today by thinking well forget about kids. I love this guy and I can't imagine there being anyone else out there I would love anywhere near as much. I asked myself whether this is out of being codependent, but I don't think so, I really do feel there is no one out there I would love as much as him. He's my best friend, the emotional connection and all those other aspects are great and it couldn't be better, apart from there is no way forward for creating a family. He would say otherwise that there is a way forward and I should just trust him, that he just wants to make everyone happy and everything OK, and he will find a resolution to this somehow.

 

Any of my past partners, as I am today, had this been happening, I would certainly have thrown the towel in over this issue, but I genuinely love and admire this person, I like his companionship. There is a slight element of I feel more protected from my abusive ex with my new partner on side, which on the fear-based side of things would put me off leaving. It's not that I don't want to be alone per se, I like living alone just with my son, but just practically I look at the situation, weigh up the reality of my abusive ex and him possibly moving closer, plus the wage I'm being offered and the cost of living in that part of the country, and just in a practical sense, even, it's not worth it. The only reason it would be is if I eventually wanted to find someone else to have the husband, family dream. But I don't. I would rather give up that dream than him I think. The thing is for the first time in my life the dynamic and relationship, except for all this stuff, is like wow I didn't know it could be like this, you are lucky if you meet that person even once in your life, and I feel that he is my soulmate the depth of understanding of each other. We can kind of tune into each other and have the same way of thinking that is to such a level it is really just weird someone can be exactly on the same wavelength to that extent in terms of how we look at the world and our perceptions of stuff. I've never experienced it before. That aspect is just so good, that I see it as trumping the other stuff. I don't want to be with someone else just to have a marriage and kids, even though I really want that and have a big emotional reaction to thinking about it. If it's going to be anyone I want it to be him. But having the full picture about his attitude, I have decided I am not going to do that unless my conditions for doing that are met. And that gives me some peace.

 

When I feel angry with him about the not marriage stuff and moving forward with a family, at that time I start looking at rental properties online and think, screw it. But if I stop hoping and expecting that from him then I don't want to leave any more. I've found peace today by accepting where his head is at and deciding not to expect anything from him, and to stop thinking about the possibility of having a child with him.

 

He's hung up on his daughter and the custody stuff, and I've found some peace today by kind of accepting that and thinking well we can't go ahead with any of the family stuff. I still love him even if we can't do all that.

 

From our discussions, he assumes that the house will not be all there is. Say in five or ten years there would be enough left over for his daughter to have the house and for me to have a smaller place were something to happen to him. He said to me today, if we got a cohabitation agreement he would see that as just as solemn as marriage, to be signing something that says, half of everything built up from this point onwards goes to me. He has not discounted marriage, but in the UK you can't take what comes into the marriage, including the house he wants his daughter to have, out of the pot. That's his objection. He considers prenups, but these aren't legally binding, and then loses confidence and goes back to talking about cohabitation agreements.

 

I don't know what to think. Whatever, I still don't like his answer to the question, what would happen if the house was all there was and you died, and that his daughter would get it and not our future child. I don't care what the situation, that needs to be split between the children if that's all there is. Yes, and I guess what about my financial security given I am a single mother in that situation with a dead husband/partner and no maintenance for our child or inheritance. I suppose it is completely crazy isn't it. His get out was it's hypothetical and can't happen like that even as things stand because of other assets, money and life insurance. Still..... hmmmmmm. I felt much better today, but maybe that is a problem still. It definitely shows that he is not thinking straight about his daughter in relation to everything else. This shows up in little things in other areas relating to her. It's the only thing he doesn't think straight on really.

 

I don't know today I've been thinking well forget kids, I love him and I'm never going to love anyone else, I can look after myself here, and will probably be better off than by myself, then all this stuff doesn't really matter.

 

I don't know what they'll come back with from the job. The pay is average but it is in one of the most expensive parts of the country. So pay £30 000, rent for a 2 bed flat £900 per month, childcare of hundreds per month, house prices of £250 000 for a small terrace house. Financially I would be no better off probably worse off. Also I could continue the job here depending on the conditions they offer me if I want to. Are things messed up though such that I should actually just leave anyway, and I'm just not really seeing it?

 

I am thinking in any case maybe better at this point in my life to change careers and go for something much better paid and less stressful. In scientific research you need to work very hard to get results and the pay is low relative to the qualifications you need i.e., PhD, because it is government funded mainly, but you do it because you love science and using all the maths and physics you learned. That's the attraction. I could do something that pays much better and build myself up financially. I would be seriously considering it anyway at this point, and it is easier for me to shift with him around, having a partner there to back me up during the transition and with him having the contacts he has. Then again it is a massive thing to close the door on my scientific career and I need to know that is what I would want to do anyway. Am I just doing it to fit in around him I guess I need to ask myself.

[Ms Darcy]

My husband read your thread and said:

 

"She's all over the place. She really needs to think about the fact that their goals and dreams just don't line up. It's just a mess."

 

You are trying hard to change your values based on what he'll give you.

[abitbroken]

My husband read your thread and said:

 

"She's all over the place. She really needs to think about the fact that their goals and dreams just don't line up. It's just a mess."

 

You are trying hard to change your values based on what he'll give you.

 

You said what I was trying to say - but so very much more to the point!

 

BTW - you don't have to buy a terrace house. You can find another single mom who got a big house in a divorce and is looking for a roomie with a child to share the expenses with or a widow that is trying to stay in her home who is with a child or a little older. You can find a small one bedroom apartment and give your child the room and you on a pull out sofa/hideabed or murphy bed until you get your bearings and upgrade. Or ask mom if you can move in for a couple months while you apartment hunt.

 

If you take this job, you get a towhold and you can get promoted or get raises and who knows - maybe you have an employer who pays for further schooling. Or you get the job and start to look around for more opportunities once you are there or get yourself into a position where you can get into a certificate course at night. Maybe you will meet the right people in that job to get a good connection elsewhere.

 

I think moving away will get your head clear. He may chase after you, he may not, but you can't think clearly when you are living with him. I got along - similar sense of humor, etc, with my ex, but when it came to the big things, we were not so compatible. There were many cracks in it.Don't kid yourself that you will go back to school with his support. Remember, he is protecting his assets at every turn.

 

 

Don't remember if I posted this or not - but i was on that train - the train of constantly adjusting myself to fit in with my ex and one day I woke up and realized that I was a shell of a woman who felt her soul was just dying inside. I was a shell of a person after I had compromised all of my desires a little tiny bit at a time. Giving up the idea of having a man who wants to love and cherish and be one with you, and giving up the possibility of more children coming out of a loving marriage is something you should not give up. You haven't been married to your ex, right? You are worthy of a healthy marriage with a man who wants you and is not solely thinking of himself always.

 

I gave up the kids thing when I was quite young for a man - I regret it now - because now I am with someone who wants kids and I don't have as many years to do so.

[aliceunderice]

You are all right, I am compromising my desires and values to fit in around what he wants. When I do that I find some peace because I'm not in the helpless position of hoping and waiting for him to do the thing that will give me what I dream of, when it looks far from assured that will ever happen.

 

He says he when he married his ex-wife, he was not convinced but he was naïve. He says this time the situation is the complete opposite, he is sure that he has found the person he wants to marry, tells me all the time that he wants to marry me, and seems genuinely upset about it, says he believes in marriage, but says that whereas before he was naïve, now he knows what marriage really is and is the experience of being put through the grinder is still raw in his mind. He says if he could guarantee what was brought into the marriage was not at risk and that the house was not in the pot, he would without a doubt marry me right now. He says he wants to get back to where he was before the divorce with his house paid off, he wants his daughter to have the house which she would have got if it did not all go wrong, he says he will stay with me forever, that he can promise he will marry me one day, and says he can easily build up assets to look after any future children and myself, and for his daughter to have the house. He is an ex- executive director at a major investment bank and really could get things together in a few years, he banks £100 k on a good year, so it is not so far fetched for him to be able to do that in a few years. He says he is absolutely fine with splitting 50-50 anything built up from that point onwards.

 

There is something that happened near the beginning of the relationship that feels kind of similar. At the beginning of the relationship, he was living with an ex-girlfriend. I know her very well now and we have our own really good friendship independently of him. She has really, really bad IBS, kind of beyond what you would think that could be like. She has to inject herself I think 6 times per day with anti-emetics, has to take opiates stronger than morphine everyday just to feel normal, and she can't hold down a job. When we met, he was living with her. At first he didn't tell me this. Then when he told me, he would not tell her we were together as a couple for several months because he told me, she was really ill, and stress is a big factor, and I have to consider everyone's needs and I do not want to cause her stress, so she thinks she will be booted out any moment. He told me they were no longer actually together since before we met, but due to her illness she was still living there. You can imagine at the time, this was really, really difficult for me. My values told me to end the relationship or tell him, we're not carrying on. When she has moved out, call me. I really went through a lot of anguish because I was needing to trust him to a level that just was not reasonable, that he really did have my interests at heart, he would be true to his word and it would all be alright in the end. Looking back I should have done that to save myself all the anguish. However, in the end I have seen that everything was as he said it was, he is extremely loyal, and is very caring and considers the needs of everybody involved, and that it was true he really did want to be with me.

 

I believe he does want to marry me, but the way he is, he will not compromise his daughter's best interests to do this. The way the marriage laws are now, he cannot put aside the house for his daughter, he could put it into trust for her, which amounts to the same problem if he were to die early on in the marriage after we had a child, and he has offered to do this. On this one point he is rigid, the house is for his daughter. We will be able to build up money and assets in the fairly short term such that she has this, and he has said at that point everything shared between us 50-50% and we will be married.

 

It kind of feels like the beginning of the relationship. I feel really uncomfortable, but am listening to his assurances, and I believe him to some extent, but it would be impossible for me to have that 100% level of trust that someone will do the "right" thing in the end, when the current situation looks completely messed up. Trust that he has the long term view in mind and it is what he says it is. He came through before, and maybe I'm just hoping he will come through this time. He doesn't make promises he doesn't intend to keep. He is too emotionally independent and kind of noble to do that. He is a really good person. He has promised that he will marry me once he has got things sorted and that there will be a resolution. I guess I am hanging onto that, but finding peace in the present by compromising my values by thinking I can live with it even it it turns out not to be the case, because otherwise right now this situation causes me too much anguish.

[aliceunderice]

Don't remember if I posted this or not - but i was on that train - the train of constantly adjusting myself to fit in with my ex and one day I woke up and realized that I was a shell of a woman who felt her soul was just dying inside. I was a shell of a person after I had compromised all of my desires a little tiny bit at a time. Giving up the idea of having a man who wants to love and cherish and be one with you, and giving up the possibility of more children coming out of a loving marriage is something you should not give up. You haven't been married to your ex, right? You are worthy of a healthy marriage with a man who wants you and is not solely thinking of himself always.

 

No I wasn't married to my ex, now it is really important to find that stability and stable family. My new partner when I say this used to say "I would believe that more if you had not already done that with your ex". We were engaged and were both being slack about it, and his mum got diagnosed with terminal cancer and we ended up doing things out of order. There were always warning signs of a controlling personality with my ex that I ignored, and I should never have let the relationship go as far as it did. My ex is so much on the controlling side that he would marry me now to "possess" me if I asked him, even after everything. He has the kind of you are mine or are nothing and belong to nobody attitude. Of course, it has taken me a long time to recognise my ex for the person he truly is. However, had he been saying the kind of things my new partner is saying, I would certainly have ended that relationship at that point, and it would have saved me a lot of trouble. It is an internal red line for me to have a child with a partner who is not willingly prepared to marry me first. That did kind of go in, and my new partner at that point realised how important it is to me, which I guess he did not really accept before that point. The fact that I'm willing to compromise that particular point is only because of how special I think my current partner is. I think at this point in my life, I would drop a middle ground relationship like a hot potato over any issue that arose, it is just that this relationship really is wonderful apart from all this stuff.

 

 

It takes two to tango. Past is past now. Does he have an explanation what HIS part in the breakdown of the marriage was? If he hasn't been to any sort of counseling to bring that to light and is walking around with this much baggage, he needs to do it.[\QUOTE]

 

When he talks about that he says he was devoted, bringing in all the money, doing most of the housework, and she was the entitled type of woman who did not pull her weight. He says she is the type of person to stab you in the back and complain you are bleeding on the floor. That she re-baselines everything and goes from there. They went to couple's counselling and the counsellor asked them "Discuss how you would split a pound". She said "75% to me and 25% to him". When asked to explain she said "Because I want 100% but I know he will offer 50% and 75% is in the middle", not meant as a joke. He got diagnosed with a rare type of cancer and told he had 5% chance of survival. She was very dependent on him financially and emotionally and couldn't cope and sought solace with a friendship in another man, fearing being abandoned and on her own. Things developed further and he unexpectedly came round from his cancer and survived. She had already got too involved with this other person, and couldn't let it go. My partner says he really tried everything to change and make her happy, to convince her to stay, but it was too late and she left. He offered to buy her a property outright for her to stay closeby but she did not want to stay around to be dependent on him in that way after the breakdown of the relationship. She moved away to the other side of the country to get the status quo argument for custody. Before this my new partner had to give up work because she wasn't coping with looking after their child, perhaps she had post-natal depression, their daughter's birthweight had plummeted to the 1 percentile because breastfeeding wasn't working, and his wife had become despondent that her daughter had "rejected" her and refused to bottle feed. He doesn't really talk about what his part in the breakdown of the relationship was per se. It could be that it was not really his fault. He seems to think had he not got cancer everything would have been OK. He says at the beginning his wife promised him she would never leave him, that she would never expect half of what he had before the marriage. Of course that all changed. He does also say that getting cancer did him a favour, as with her personality being dependent like that, it would have blown up sooner or later, and that he has no emotional attachment to her whatsoever. In fact he says, he couldn't care less if she died at this point and if a combine harvester was driving towards her, he wouldn't try to stop it, because of how much all this hurts his daughter. It is very clear that the primary attachment is towards him, and the daughter's attachments are now messed up as she got put with the mother, the daughter has some emotional problems, doesn't like anyone except daddy being affectionate with her and other things that are indicative of a possible attachment disorder from trauma and disrupted attachments.

 

When I told him the other night "that's it we're done" in response to him saying his daughter would get everything and our future child nothing if the house is all there was, he was saying to me afterwards, that me saying that "really concerns him" because it reminds him of when his ex-wife said "well I meant it at the time" in relation to their wedding vows. I told him well "are you trying to push me out the door or what, saying something like that?", you know "Any woman on Earth would tell you to stuff it saying something like that!", I don't know he has some major trust issues and sometimes he just cannot see or empathise with the pressure his chosen course of action is putting me under. This was the case with him living with his ex-girlfriend, and it is the case with this marriage stuff. He mostly listens but in a way he is very stubborn when he has decided which course of action he is going to take. If I leave so be it sort of thing.

 

In terms of his ex-wife, he says perhaps had a dependent personality, where attachments can shift very quickly, and they are driven by a fear of abandonment. All this stuff of him not committing means I pull away emotionally or start making plans to leave because of his lack of acceptance. This looks to him like I might abandon him, and makes him even less likely to commit. He says I will stay with you forever, the thing I'm worried about is that you will leave me. He said the other night what I need to decide now is "if we got married would that be it and everything be lovely, and it is just this situation causing the problem", and he said "you're much more anxious than me, and I'm worried if it wasn't this it would be something else". The only thing that caused an issue before this was him living with his ex-girlfriend and refusing to tell her about me. It's kind of the same thing. What man in their right mind would not be able to see the intolerable pressure they are putting their girlfriend through with their preferred course of action. He's like an immovable rock who in a way despite how much empathy he seems to have sometimes, at other times, he can be really callous if he has decided that "this is just the way it has to be done".

 

Of course you can never one hundred percent know that someone didn't have more of a role in the breakdown of a relationship, but there are entitled, selfish and sociopathic people out there you can get involved with, and from what I've seen of his ex-wife, in emails, Skype, how his daughter reacts to her and so on, you know I think he probably did get caught out there. Despite him being so rigid on the big stuff, he is very easy to take advantage of and will do too much for people. He is fundamentally motivated by making things ok for people, but unlike a lot of feelings based people, it is not just the person closest but the group as a whole. So he is motivated by making the group happy, think they call it external feeling, so even if you are the closest person, you are not weighted that much more highly that all the other people who need something. When we were having the giving the house to his daughter conversation, he told me it reminded him of when his ex-wife "was really upset I said I would prioritize his daughter over her". I'm OK with kids coming first over partners, our values align there, but I'm not OK with one kid coming first over another.

 

I guess the crazy thing, that I need to beware of, is that he expects me not to even be upset that he has said something like that, and tries to imply that I am being unreasonable. That thing in particular does make me uncomfortable. Can't he see how crap it is to say that his daughter would get the house and our future child nothing, no matter if it is just a hypothetical point. A guy who was thinking in his right mind would never say that in a million years, let alone try to imply I am being unreasonable. They would be rushing to apologize and be backtracking like crazy to have said they would be prepared to disinherit our child. Who cares if it is just a theoretical point.

[overthemoon86]

I know i am chiming in later here, but I read your previous thread from 2013 about a controlling husband...I thought you were married to your ex?

[aliceunderice]

I know i am chiming in later here, but I read your previous thread from 2013 about a controlling husband...I thought you were married to your ex?

 

Hioverthemoon86, no we weren't married, at the time I wrote that when I was thinking about splitting up with him, we used to refer to each other as if we were. We were engaged, and there was nothing to make me think from his side he didn't mean it. I was the one thinking hang on this relationship is completely messed up, I need to get out of this.

 

Also I kind of felt bad that I had a child with someone not already being married. When I was pregnant I used to walk around hiding my hand because I was embarrassed someone might see I was not actually wearing a wedding ring, and I guess it made me feel better just to refer to him as that.

 

Little did I realise at the time the huge difference between actually being married, and playing husband and wife. More fool me. But now after a huge custody battle that has cost me about £20 000, I really, really understand the difference on all sorts of levels. I don't want to make the same mistake again. Now marriage is so important to me, to *really* be married, not just playing husband and wife, which is what I feel like my new partner is offering. I can't take the risk of having a child without being married again. Emotionally I really want the certainty and safety of a real marriage this time. My new partner says that there is no certainty in marriage, which I guess is true, but to me it gives me the security I want.

 

My partner has offered say for us to have a non-legally binding marriage, say in another country with all the ceremony and people being aware and so on, and us referring to each other as if we are, but to me it is not what I want. I want an actual marriage this time.

[Ms Darcy]

Your example of living with another woman actually just proves that he likes women to live with him and is probably exaggerating (because what he's saying sounds ridiculous) about the troubles in his last relationships (including his marriage.)

 

If he thought he was going to be with you forever, he wouldn't worry about how pre-nups aren't held up in divorce.

 

It's pretty obvious that since you are willing to compromise your beliefs for a man, which is horrible, that you will do that. And you'll get burned like the previous women unless he actually stops talking and starts acting.

[aliceunderice]

 

It's pretty obvious that since you are willing to compromise your beliefs for a man, which is horrible, that you will do that. And you'll get burned like the previous women unless he actually stops talking and starts acting.

 

I guess that's it isn't it. That I am prone to that, and it is the reason why I've had unhappy relationships in the past. The talk is there but not the action and I can't compromise my values in the long term. Maybe I can give it a year and see if there has been some concrete action and resolution to anything, and if not then leave. I don't want to leave now because of the hope what he says is true, although I can only find peace if I forget about any possible future. I guess clearly it is just not a stable set-up at all, I need to set a time limit on it.

[overthemoon86]

Thank you alice for the clarification, I understand now. It is totally okay to do things non-traditionally, you do not have to be ashamed and who cares what society thinks. I understand that marriage is really important to you, but it sounds like this relationship is not going to yield a marriage for you. You have tried every compromise in the book for the man you are with to marry you and he still won't. If he truly loved you and wanted to be with your forever, he wouldn't be so concerned over every legal piece of it. It is really concerning that he is so focused on that. That should be the last thing on his mind if you were the one for him.

[abitbroken]

So he is motivated by making the group happy, think they call it external feeling, so even if you are the closest person, you are not weighted that much more highly that all the other people who need something.

 

My ex gave away my things if a business colleague or a friend of is came over and remarked how beautiful it was.

 

y partner has offered say for us to have a non-legally binding marriage, say in another country with all the ceremony and people being aware and so on, and us referring to each other as if we are, but to me it is not what I want. I want an actual marriage this time.

 

I have news for this turkey. If he marries you in another country, it will be legal and binding unless you exchange vows on a beach with no officiant or witnesses. In my country (US), you are legally recognized as married if you married in another country, so long as your marriage doesn't break the law here (wife is 12 years old, etc.) and it was legal where you got married (didn't violate that country's age law, bride wasn't kidnapped and forced, etc).

And to you, the British Virgin Islands and anywhere in the EU is not considered marrying in a foreign land, anyway, right?

[aliceunderice]

I decided to start applying for jobs in London and around here in data science for business intelligence which uses a lot of the stuff from my phd but is paid 2 or 3 times as much. I've decided that completely independently of the relationship this is the right choice in terms of my career. I still get to use the high level maths and stats that it has taken years to get my head around but in a much more lucrative area, so I am happy with my choice, and am starting to apply for jobs. My partner has said this solves a lot of our issues in terms of income parity and that this should pave the way to getting married and for a prenup to stand, with more behind me independently.

 

I still don't feel fully settled though and I'm not sure why. He was in bed until really late today and I started brooding over some of the stuff, in particular that conversation we had where I pushed him on what would happen to the house if that's all there was and him saying it would go to his daughter not split with our future child. I still feel angry, upset and scared that he would say such a thing. I confessed to him that I had been brooding about it and it is causing problems. He said "stop picking or just f!*$ off!", and that what he is concerned about is that I am "picking over stuff, focussing on the negative and ignoring the positive", that he has explained that it is "a hypothetical point that could never happen", he doesn't want to be in a relationship with someone who is like a barrister picking over what he has said and saying "ah ha see!" and catching him out. I said that it still just makes me really uncomfortable that he could even say something like that and that to me it is very callous no matter what the circumstances leading up to him wanting the house for his daughter only, and it makes me afraid he would not treat our child as equal to his daughter. He said stop talking about our hypothetical child and creating problems with the relationship. He said he doesn't like being in a relationship with someone who is constantly questioning his values, and basically saying he is an a-hole". He told me I am "taking a hatchet to the core of our relationship". He said a month ago he was thinking get a prenup and be married, but now I have pushed him very far from that position.

 

He says you know the house is for my daughter, that's not all there is even now, if you take this new job and your earning capacity goes up to where mine is then I've said that's the last thing and there should be no problems, why is that not enough for you. We got to talking about it and how maybe it is that I don't trust him enough. I don't trust my judgement on men. I feel like there is an unsettled something doesn't quite add up here feeling, but I can't rationally validate it, but I've been there before, and should have listened to my gut. He got really upset and sat there kind of staring outside with tears in his eyes at the idea of not being trusted, and this being really important in a relationship. I agree with this and the current state of things is really not good. I guess I don't trust him that the future being married with a kid and being treated equally to his first family is really there. He says it is, but then other stuff he says or does makes me doubt that, although when I raise it with him, he has the answers, and I end up feeling unreasonable. I guess the house thing is just a massive red line for him. That is for his daughter no matter what. Maybe I shouldn't be pushing him on that. I guess I am pushing him on hypothetical points and he does offer solutions, and I know the house is something he wants for his daughter to keep. I still feel worried about what he said though.

 

I said I wanted something where the path to marriage and family was straightforward and for someone who would love to marry me, and early on it seemed that this was the case and it has become increasingly apparent this is not the case, and I just feel very bad about it, because that is what I really want.

 

I just don't feel the same anymore. All of this has really eroded my feelings for him, and I think his feelings for me. I just have a kind of sinking feeling but I'm not sure whether it is reasonable of me or not.

 

I am thinking at the moment to try to resolve never to mention it again, take the new better paid job, and throw my money at it to reassure him about that side of things, and try to be trusting and loving towards him and believe in what he says for a year and see where that takes us, and whether he comes back with something concrete like getting a prenup made up or a proposal in that time.

 

Any thoughts? In the pit of my stomach I just feel crap but when I talk to him he has all the answers and I just end up feeling like it's me being unreasonable

[mhowe]

I think that you have summed it up nicely. Your focus on a hypothetical joint child and a hypothetical marriage and the dissolution thereof has eroded both of your trust in each other.

 

Whether this is salvageable is unknown. I would focus on the present at this point.