Struggling with no marriage relationship

[mhowe]

Where is your son?,

[aliceunderice]

Hi abitbroken, yeah I would have thought so too at the beginning, but I have got to know this person, and it's all good. We are very good friends ourselves. See he is a generous caring person by nature, but he has been burned by marriage. What do you think about that money going to his daughter comment. I mean it wasn't quite that bad. I put it to him what would happen if the house was all there was and you died. He said the house would still go to his daughter not our future child, because she has been so disadvantaged, and the "upper classes don't split their property into flats", at this point I was thinking "what?? can't believe I'm hearing this..". But then he said, but of course I wouldn't leave everyone else destitute. Doesn't really make sense. Situation probably will not arise anyway that his house is all that is left, but you never know it might, and you're right that is not a great attitude from the potential father of my future children. Not at all. Yeah what you say about "craftily figure out a way not to give me a fair share" does worry me somewhat. In some ways he is generous but he does have a certain hardness about money e.g., when I said I was concerned about not having any money left over at the end of the month and bringing up the topic of my long term security, he just said, well you aren't any worse off now than you would have been by yourself. At other times he promises to say get an investment property and things like that, or offers for me to put less money in. I get a lot of mixed messages from him.

 

At other times he says he thinks about marriage a lot, he is trying to find a way, I know he looks up say on the internet what can be done about the situation, has said we will draft a prenup to see how it looks, and says he has every intention of marrying me if and when the law changes. The law commission recommended that prenups become legally binding in the UK, so that may happen in the next few years then again it may not. I'm nearly 34 at the moment, so don't necessarily have years to find someone else to have kids with. I'm not sure whether to wait and see or not.

[aliceunderice]

hi mhowe, he lives with me mainly and with his dad 2/3 of the holidays. His dad moved to Exeter so we live quite some distance apart, but this could be brought back to court at any time really.

[mhowe]

I would notify your ex, take transition to the new job and move out.

[aliceunderice]

Yes I think you are probably right about the moving out thing. I need really to be sure it involves moving my son out of school and into a new one.

[aliceunderice]

hi Gossamyr, not sure if you're taking the mick but that situation doesn't sound too good ...

[abitbroken]

Is this new job near your family? I honestly would take it if your son is free to relocate there with yo

u. You have a support system if your family is there. I would also seek counseling to work through your divorce further as well.

 

It is not the fact of the "piece of paper" about your boyfriend - its the thought that your child with him would be on their own and he would not take responsibility for them should something happen to you, nor would the child be considered in a will if something happened to him. Where is the cherish in that?

 

Get financially stable on your own.

[DancingFool]

With the child thing, he really pines for his daughter and associates the house with her, and he was lucky to keep it in the divorce. He really wants her to have it. He can't imagine loving another child as much as his daughter although he would like another. It is kind of unlikely that something would happen to him before we could build assets up enough to cover it so she could keep it. It was kind of an extreme case I put to him to probe his attitude and I didn't like what I heard at that point! hmmm

 

This doesn't sound like a man who even remotely wants another child. However it does sound like a woman dating a man hoping that if the child comes into the picture, the man will bond with and accept the child. Don't hold your breath on that.

 

Honestly, if he is so set on his daughter getting the house, there are plenty of ways to go about arranging that have nothing to do with marriage and divorce. He can put the house in an irrevocable trust with his daughter as beneficiary. He can transfer the property to her and give himself a life tenancy, etc. Lots of ways. It sounds like he is perfectly capable of funding a more complex legal arrangement and you as the wife or ex wife would have no rights or claims in that.

 

My point is that he is both damaged goods and that he is also blowing smoke about marriage. Your gut is usually right when it's telling you what you don't want to hear. Ultimately, it doesn't matter what the reason is for why someone doesn't want to do something, the point is that they don't and their goals and your goals are not aligned. In this case, rather completely opposite. So, in your shoes, I'd take the job. Use that as an opportunity to part amicably and avoid hurt feelings and if that spurs him to fix himself and want what you want.....well....he knows how to find you. Still, don't hold your breath. Probably time to go live on your own and stop revolving your life hoping that men who don't want what you want will change their mind.

[aliceunderice]

It is much nearer to my family and I could live near to them and commute a much smaller although still significant (over an hour) distance to work. My son is free to relocate. If I stay here and have to travel the 300 mile round trip into the office and need to stay away overnight, I am worried about leaving him like that on a regular basis. He is nearly 5 but don't want to be away from him on average one night per week. If I relocate I can still work from home sometimes, and I could come into work as normal other times, and I would not need to stay away from my son over night. Staying here I can work from home but need to come in "a few days every couple of weeks" to somewhere that is three hours drive away. They say after one year of probation the position may become more flexible i.e., need to go in less.

 

I have a decent enough income in either scenario, possibly slightly more travel costs if I stay here and more of a pain in the backside, but there is the leaving my son overnight and the possibility of that being scrutinized in any further custody hearings. Hmmmmmm. Moving away seems sensible or should I hang around here for a year or two and see what happens. I guess the red flag was that comment about the house being left to his daughter if there was nothing else. Then he says lots of things that contradict that and he always reassures me he is trying to think of away to protect his assets so we can marry. I do love him everything is lovely in the day-to-day should I just stick with this and try to make things stable here. I'm really confused at the moment.

[mhowe]

Things are stable....in fact, they are stagnant. And you having another child elimates your career progress. You moved in for financial reasons....time to move out for the same reasons.

 

If your bf realizes what he has lost, perhaps he will reconsider marriage. But I wouldn't bet my sons future on that.

[DancingFool]

He says he is trying to think. Has he actually consulted with an estate planning lawyer???

It's the old actions v. words. His mouth is moving, but what are his feet doing?

It's been 3 years. That's already a long time. How would more time change anything? Assume that in 2 years he is still just talking. Where would that leave you? A practical question really.

[aliceunderice]

hi Dancing Fool, he has had a conversation with his solicitor that he used for his divorce, and she put him off remarrying, predictably really. He has called another solicitor and has discussed the kind of prenup arrangement he is thinking. He has said we will go together and sit down with someone to hammer one out and get an opinion on whether that would likely be upheld in a court. Trouble in the UK is that even with a prenup, the legal system is still a bit arbitrary on divorce law and you might just get a judge with different values, who looks at the prenup and says that they still think it's unfair to the ex-wife and overturn it. That kind of situation might be there was not really any capital left apart from the house and we split up, no judge would order that the house not be split to take care of all parties, but go to the original daughter. Even if prenups were fully legally binding they wouldn't do that, so I don't know, if that is really what he wants he may never get married and it might all be blowing smoke as you say about it.

 

In terms of where I would be with or without him financially. My income would be pretty much the same in either case. In the UK on an average wage as a single mum you are not likely to be able to put that much away yourself especially in the south east of the country. Rent and property prices are huge here, and you're just outside the bracket for getting any help, so in the squeezed middle. You would kind of struggle to put anything significant away each month even on 30 K which is about an average wage or just above. You kind of need to be in a couple in this country to get by comfortably. The problem here is yes lifestyle is good, but I'm not saving much fast plus have no mortgage myself. Could get one on my own in a shared ownership scheme or similar so maybe you are banking £200 per month rest interest payments but you've got house insurance etc etc.... so on my own I'm not going to get ahead fast because even on an average wage in the UK, and especially with a dependent, on your own, you are covering your living costs but not much more.

 

If I stay here and we agree say that I can put away £500 per month, I'd be better off than on my own, plus there is a chance he might commit in the long term and we can move forward and I would have way more security, as he is financially in quite a powerful position in terms of his job (he earns £750 per day when working). I think with no more children, I'm probably better off here. Then how much do I really want kids, well I'm not sure I can be bothered with a bloke again after this, plus I'm 34 so am running out of time to sift through everyone in the dating game trying to find that exact fit. Perhaps I should just stay here and let go of the idea of having any more kids.

[aliceunderice]

hi Dancing Fool, he has had a conversation with his solicitor that he used for his divorce, and she put him off remarrying, predictably really. He has called another solicitor and has discussed the kind of prenup arrangement he is thinking. He has said we will go together and sit down with someone to hammer one out and get an opinion on whether that would likely be upheld in a court. Trouble in the UK is that even with a prenup, the legal system is still a bit arbitrary on divorce law and you might just get a judge with different values, who looks at the prenup and says that they still think it's unfair to the ex-wife and overturn it. That kind of situation might be there was not really any capital left apart from the house and we split up, no judge would order that the house not be split to take care of all parties, but go to the original daughter. Even if prenups were fully legally binding they wouldn't do that, so I don't know, if that is really what he wants he may never get married and it might all be blowing smoke as you say about it.

 

In terms of where I would be with or without him financially. My income would be pretty much the same in either case. In the UK on an average wage as a single mum you are not likely to be able to put that much away yourself especially in the south east of the country. Rent and property prices are huge here, and you're just outside the bracket for getting any help, so in the squeezed middle. You would kind of struggle to put anything significant away each month even on 30 K which is about an average wage or just above, people have big student loans now, and full time childcare costs are about £800 per month, so a big fraction of your wages. You can still get some help even on an average wage with that as a single parent towards childcare, but that would take down to zero anything you've got left each month, especially if you have commuting and other costs. Bascially you can be working your backside off and not get anywhere in this country. You kind of need to be in a couple in the south east of the UK to build anything up and not just be getting by.

 

The problem where I am now is yes lifestyle is good, but I'm not saving much fast plus have no mortgage myself. I'm not any worse off than I would be by myself right now, but don't feel part of a partnership, or protected enough for the relationship to develop any further which is definitely what I want i.e, children, and what he says he wants too.

 

By leaving, I could get a mortgage on my own in a shared ownership scheme or similar so maybe you are banking £200 per month rest interest payments but you've got house insurance etc etc.... so on my own I'm not going to get ahead fast because even on an average wage in the UK, and especially with a dependent, on your own, commuting costs, student loan, extremely high rent and childcare, you are covering your living costs but no more living by yourself. Could lean on family to some extent for childcare, but that just needs to be offset against the increase in commuting costs, and they're too old and get tired even though my mum loves doing it, so I can't rely on them.

 

So all in all, purely financially, I'm probably as well or slightly better off right now without any more kids staying here in the next few years. Looking at say 10 year plus longer term, were I to get a mortgage myself say I had been paying down the debt all that time, and inflation took off somewhat, and wages kept up, both of which might not happen, however, I would be gaining more financially that way by having made that investment, especially if house prices continue to increase, which they probably will in this country unless immigration slows down. So in the longer term 10 year plus picture, it may be better to get a mortgage on my own, rather than staying on my own here continuing the status quo without that investment.

 

He is agreeable that I can stay here and put away £500 per month, so right now better off, plus there is a chance he might commit in the long term and we can move forward and I would have way more security, as he is financially in a very good position in terms of his job (he earns £750 per day when working). I think with no more children, I'm probably better off here. Then how much do I really want kids, well I'm not sure I can be bothered with a bloke again after this, plus I'm 34 so am running out of time to sift through everyone in the dating game trying to find that exact fit. So if I leave I'm not going to do that anyway.

 

Another thing is that although I can look after myself, I can't begin to describe what a huge burden it is mentally, emotionally and financially having an abusive ex partner and being embroiled in custody disputes, in which their main aim is to bully and intimidate you and run you out of money with no regard for the child and actually including the child in lots of warped abusive behaviour to wear me down (this ex has way more money than me and we were never married, hence the desire for security from marriage this time around). Social services, the police, my GP, health visitors, mental health people, and domestic abuse services were all involved, because of severe but mainly non-physical abuse, although there was some sexual abuse directed towards me. Even so the courts don't really take abuse seriously unless they are injecting heroin into their eyeballs and attacking you with a knife, it doesn't really register in the family courts, plus it is not evidence based, so any party can basically just lie and not be challenged. So being in the court system with a pathological narcissistic liar who is at war with reality, is as you can imagine, stressful as hell when you are spending 10's of thousands of pounds yourself, and your child's wellbeing and your well being are at stake, and you're in a system which doesn't really have the capacity or insight to fully grasp what is going on. I was lucky basically in my case that CAFCASS did actually get the measure of him, but in general they are a useless organization who make judgements about custody decisions with lifelong ramifications on the basis of a few personal impressions, and personal biases, in an interview lasting less than an our, and they are completely undercover and unaccountable. I will probably need to go back to court many times in the future defending against this narcissistic aggressive sociopath in a court system that doesn't understand how they operate, against someone with a lot more money than me to thrown at the best barristers, while I am in a weaker position, who just sees the court system as another way to continue to harass me. I am slightly scared if I change the situation he will use it as an opportunity to drag me back to court again and I don't want to keep running that gauntlet. In some ways being where I am now, this person is unlikely to move next door to me because of the specific type of job he does, and nothing changing in the status quo, court action is unlikely to yield a different result given exactly the same circumstances, and you really do need to keep those people far away from you. This is quite a big consideration for me too in terms of making any move. This is also however where I get the slight nerves about commuting out of town for a couple of nights every couple of weeks for work. Basically you are never really safe from being taken back to court, you have to watch what you are doing the whole time, and think if this went to court how might this be portrayed.

 

Another thing is that my new partner has been through the system himself, and is someone who can say look, what has just happened there is really messed up and support me in taking the right action, when I'm receiving barrages of abuse from someone I have to have some dealings with because of a court mandated contact order. He is supportive and knows the court system too, so on that level, maybe you know I have to be realistic and acknowledge I'm in a position where I could do with that kind of support.

 

Given there is no difference right now, and all the background, maybe I should wait to see what he proposes in terms of longer term security, and then make a judgement at that point. Maybe give it a year of two to see if things fall into place. I don't have any interest in finding any other man. I'm pretty much done with all that at this point after this. Maybe the answer is stop thinking about any more kids, try to cut a decent enough deal for myself here, and just hunker down. I suppose in a way, emotionally this angst about what is going on with the current relationship, is mainly driven by feeling vulnerable and craving the relief from some real security from this guy, as I'm fundamentally in an insecure situation because of choiced I've made and stuff that has happened in the past. Any thoughts?

[DancingFool]

Thoughts - I see that you are both fixated on that prenup that may or may not be valid, but you are not exploring Estate Planning at all. Like I mentioned before, talk to a trusts and estates lawyer on how to ensure that his assets are shielded, moved and disposed of how he wishes, new wife or another divorce notwithstanding. Proper financial and estate planning tools like trusts are much more powerful ways to protect yourself legally than any prenup. Even in the states, prenups can be ripped apart, but Trusts will stand. If he does appropriate planning BEFORE marriage, then you two can honestly start to build your life together on a fresh page and leave your pasts behind, where it belongs.

 

Also, why is he using a solicitor who already lost his case??? Some lawyers are better than others even when laws are mostly against you. You'd be shocked how many times I've come across professionals who don't know their job and will adamantly tell you x when the reality is y.

[aliceunderice]

Thanks for reading all that and the comments Dancing Fool. I'll take a look at that. He has looked into it somewhat, I think it can be done here too, but might tie your money up in a way that is not easy to get at I guess is the disadvantage. Anyway I guess the thing is to just see is his actions follow his words in any real way for a while.

[melancholy123]

 

I guess the trouble is even if we go to counselling there will always be assymetry. One person has to assume the burden of trust more than the other whether we marry or not. I kind of just wish I could find the courage for that to be me and move on with him. But the issue upsets me and causes me too much stress and fear to be able to do that.

 

I dont believe that at all. I fully believe the trust between my husband and myself is about as equal as one can get. I dont see a lot of hope for you two without some serious counselling first.

[aliceunderice]

hi melancholy, yes what I mean there is that, say we marry, then the worry and burden of thinking if this goes wrong, I'm in trouble has moved away from me and onto him. So he has to trust me more than I need to trust him. If we don't marry then he does not have to worry so much about what happens but I on the other hand do, so I need to trust him, but he is not trusting me enough to get married. Feeling like the other person doesn't completely trust you really undermines the relationship. Sometimes I think to myself if I fully trusted him then I wouldn't be worried about not marrying him, so what right do I have to feel offended he does not trust me enough to marry.

 

But then I get to thinking that as a woman you always need a lot of trust, even being married, because of how much having a kid has an impact on you, usually we're the ones that do most of the nurturing, time out of career, the actual physical dangers of pregnancy and birth and how arduous it is, and of course it wrecks your body, youth and attractiveness. I guess that imbalance between men and women is why women really want marriage. Even with marriage, there is a huge act of trust for a woman to bear a child with anyone, and you kind of expect some reciprocity in the form of a marriage. Someone expecting me to have a child with them without marriage really troubles me. In my previous relationship we got things out of order. His mum got cancer and we hurried the child along while still engaged, but the promise of marriage was there.

 

Trouble is in the UK marriage is pretty dangerous, even assets that by rights should not be just split between both parties, e.g., for previous children, these cannot be 100 % protected.

[mhowe]

I think you really need to face the facts...he won't marry again. He may protect you finacialy, but he isn't going g to marry.

 

And this societal role of women blather has nothing to do with this guy...he isn't going to have another child is my guess. You have custody of your son and your first priority should be his safety...emotionally and physically. And if that means this guy isn't the one....so be it.

 

You moved in for financial reasons instead of it being the next organic step in the relationship. Your chosen career and path will never allow you financial freedom where you now live.

 

You have some hard decisions to make. And "seeing where this goes" sounds like some pretty.passive reasoning for a mother.

[DancingFool]

Thanks for reading all that and the comments Dancing Fool. I'll take a look at that. He has looked into it somewhat, I think it can be done here too, but might tie your money up in a way that is not easy to get at I guess is the disadvantage. Anyway I guess the thing is to just see is his actions follow his words in any real way for a while.

 

There is no way that wealthy people in the UK live unprotected and just part with majority of their assets in a divorce. You can be sure that there are solid ways and means to avoid that issue. However, you may need to really roll up your sleeves and dig around to find a solicitor who truly knows what he is doing and doesn't just toss boiler plate advice at clients looking for a quick and easy fee.

[aliceunderice]

hi Dancing Fool, since seeing your message on Estate Planning I had a quick look, kind of looks like you can't really even with that. The UK is one of the more backward countries on divorce where courts have the most discretion, I think basically they do live unprotected, although have to say haven't been able to get my head round the whole trusts thing in 5 minutes of course, it's complicated stuff. Seems strange though that you can avoid the tax man with trust law but not your ex-wife, you would think it must be possible.

[Ms Darcy]

If I stay here and we agree say that I can put away £500 per month, I'd be better off than on my own, plus there is a chance he might commit in the long term and we can move forward and I would have way more security, as he is financially in quite a powerful position in terms of his job (he earns £750 per day when working). I think with no more children, I'm probably better off here. Then how much do I really want kids, well I'm not sure I can be bothered with a bloke again after this, plus I'm 34 so am running out of time to sift through everyone in the dating game trying to find that exact fit. Perhaps I should just stay here and let go of the idea of having any more kids.

 

I think this is the sentiment that disturbs me in your posts/thinking. You are continually going back to the financial security piece.

 

Personally, I think most of the advice leans towards you going out on your own and becoming more financially secure. Moving closer to family for the job would afford you this. But you are holding on to this, but maybe he'll marry me ... which means he can take care of me.

 

Ultimately, he doesn't want to. That's why all the running around trying to figure out an agreement. So, while you are trying to get "more" security, he's trying to stay as legally separate from you financially as he can (which isn't really possible at all if you marry.)

[mhowe]

For you to put an extra £500 away per month means he will be spending it so you can "save it". Which means he is paying you! For the privilege of your company?

[DancingFool]

Trusts and estates is a complicated subject, so no, you are not going to get your head around that by doing a little research online. Not even all solicitors know all the ins and outs either. Since in some ways US and UK law are similar, I can tell you that there are indeed ways and means. For example, putting the house into a specific trust with the daughter as beneficiary before you get married would in fact ensure you have no rights to the house...ever.... Why? Because the house no longer belongs to him. What doesn't belong can't be held as a marital asset. There are other things that can be done with real estate planning as well in terms of transferring out titles and the ways to do that. Most of what you read will focus on taxes and transfer to family, however that can also work for protecting assets from divorce so long as things are done prior to marriage taking place. Emphasis on prior to marriage. Of course, after marriage not so much....even so....there are some loopholes. Marital claims arise only when you two get married and are based on what you and him bring into the marriage as well obtain thereafter. I can pretty much guarantee you that if the law was as impossibly bad as you think and without loopholes, all the well off people in the UK would be single.

[journeynow]

Sounds like you each have a different level of income, yet are living jointly at the higher standard of living, which means you pay what you can and save very little. Why not live at your standard of living, what you can afford and save and let him move in with you, share expenses that way. In any case, I'm with others here in thinking you should go with the job if it improves your earning ability and works well for your son. You probably should not be leaving him with your boyfriend while you travel for work. Makes more sense to move closer to your family (and hopefully your son's father), and have the shorter commute. Stay focused on what is best for your son.

[abitbroken]

You are not washed up at 34. Lots of women start families at 35-38. I think Batya had her child at 41 or 42. If you meet a man that you love, you could very well have a child naturally, adopt, or use milder forms of fertility treatment (sometimes just looking at nutrition can solve things). I would not stick with a man because you fear not meeting another person. I am living proof. I was in an abusive marriage in my early 30s, and now I am with the love of my life.

 

Sounds like you each have a different level of income, yet are living jointly at the higher standard of living, which means you pay what you can and save very little. Why not live at your standard of living, what you can afford and save and let him move in with you, share expenses that way. In any case, I'm with others here in thinking you should go with the job if it improves your earning ability and works well for your son. You probably should not be leaving him with your boyfriend while you travel for work. Makes more sense to move closer to your family (and hopefully your son's father), and have the shorter commute. Stay focused on what is best for your son.

 

Exactly, Splitting everything 50-50 and paying "your share" plus the needs of your son - you are just scraping by, when you could downsize your lifestyle and luxuries and do much better.

 

Also if you stay with this guy and expect security - he was clear that you would get nothing if he left you or if he died.