Struggling with no marriage relationship

[aliceunderice]

Thanks for all your replies and thoughts guys. Just a few more thoughts from my end to kind of summarise quickly in case anyone has missed some points about the situation so it's kind of condensed in one place

 

* Financially right now I'm no better off here than on my own but say 10 year timeline I might be, unless we are able to do something here to make sure I can invest in something too. I think there is a good chance I'll be able to invest in something here in the longer term. This is something we have talked about

 

* True it is always a bit dodgy to be involved with someone with more money bringing more children into the mix, I think reading this, I'm much more set now on no kids with this guy unless marriage. I'd be sad but I could let go of the kids idea given I don't want to bother finding anyone else/having kids if this relationship falls through anyway.

 

* I don't want any more men after this and would just live on my own and not have kids. I guess you can't know for sure, but I'm just tired of men now and can't be bothered after this one.

 

* I have an extremely abusive ex the father of my child who I do not want to live nearer to. If he gets the opportunity he will move closer to me. This is more likely if I move back for work as we work in the same field. He is a highly abusive sociopathic narcissist who my doctor has said it is damaging to my mental health to have any communication with, domestic abuse services are involved etc. These kind of people will insert themselves into your life to try to damage and control you. They are not interested in the well being of the children, but will use them as a tool to harass and abuse you messing them up mentally. I am safer from him here, and my sons mental and emotional wellbeing is safer here, than back where my job is, because of the risk his father actually moves closer. To give you an idea of how bad it is, my partner who had his kid taken away by the court system, despite being the primary carer, and who is the biggest advocate of father's rights you could meet, thinks that my son should only be having contact with his real father supervised in a contact centre. I have the support of my partner in dealing with this mentally abusive person and any more court action if I stay here.

 

* I am exposed to financially damaging court action/representing myself and needing support from someone who knows the situation and this stuff works at any time in the future. My new partner has had his kid taken away by the court system, and we thoroughly understand each others situation, and how stuff works, and are supportive towards one another in this. I think if it went back to court, and I didn't have the money he would help me out with the court costs so I was on more of an even footing with my ex. The way abusive people work (my ex) they will keep taking you back to court at any opportunity with twisted arguments based on lies just to make you spend money. This is something I need to think about. On my own, guaranteed next time I would need to represent myself. Staying here my boyfriend will likely help me out hiring a barrister.

 

* Other than this marriage issue causing friction the relationship is *extremely* smooth and low conflict and I am sure he has a very good character as a person.

 

I think at the moment, I'm inclined to stay here, forget about any more kids, push for financial protection from my new boyfriend in whatever form so I'd be a bit better off than by myself somewhere else, see what happens with marriage. But basically try to let go of the idea of more kids, then the marriage thing practically doesn't matter at all, and I can understand and accept him not wanting to marry if it is just him and me together as a couple with no future children.

 

I have the same job here than if I move to be nearer the job, but need to be away essentially one night every two weeks. The downside to my son of this is outweighed by the risk his father moves closer and/or starts court action with me having less emotional and financial support from my current partner.

[aliceunderice]

Actually I'll just say one more thing about the him not leaving me anything if he dies, and leaving the house to his daughter if that were the only asset and not our future children or myself....

 

 

* When there are kids from a previous relationship I'm fine with getting very little from my husband for myself were he to die, but would want to continue living in the house until my/our children were grown. If it's just his daughter, then I'd be happy for all assets to go to the previous child of his other marriage. I'll be able to save something in this relationship/invest in something from my own career, I think he'll work with me to make sure that happens even if we don't marry.

 

* If we had any kids I would obviously want the assets split between his kids from all marriages fairly. I wouldn't want anything from him as such. Returning to my previous quality of life would be fine for me, maybe with a slight boost depending on how long we had been together. I think he would be fine with this.

 

In terms of more kids, he wants his original kid to have the house. He can build up 100 k per year on a good year, so he is kind of thinking that will not take him that long to get the house paid off again and then plenty of extra, so in a way it's not such a crazy thing to say for him, because he's thinking he'll be able to ring fence it for his daughter, and have plenty left over for any future child. When I put that question to him, it was like well say we have a kid right now and you drop dead, and the house is all there is, then what happens? At that point he was saying he would want his daughter to get the house. Clearly he can't let go of the idea of his daughter having the house, which is where she was born, and he so strongly associates with her.

 

* Basically this means no kids unless enough assets built up to cover everyone given he wants the house for his daughter. I don't want kids without an actual marriage. May never happen so I need to forget about kids.

 

* If I forget about kids then I don't care anywhere near as much about marriage. I still feel sad but can accept it.

 

* As long as there are no more children my son and I are better off staying here with my new partner, especially given ongoing court action and abusive ex partner.

 

I think I'm leaning towards what some other posters have said previously about "the only way I can see this working is if you don't have any more kids" type comment.

[aliceunderice]

and one more point and one big reason I wouldn't try again with another man is that on an emotional level, no-one could possibly compare to my current partner in terms of how we are on that kind of romantic level, and how well we get on and understand each other. Mentally and emotionally we're so finely attuned to one another if I left, I'd kind of like be, well that was it, I've seen what true love is now, I'd rather just remember that for the rest of my life than kind of contaminate it by trying again with someone else. Before meeting my new partner, I couldn't really understand how people meet someone then if they split up never bother again, or if their husband dies, they don't try again, but now I do understand that. One of the reasons all this stuff is so confusing, is that those elements are so strong, but it is our personal history, and practical stuff that is causing an issue. It could be really perfect, that connection I would honestly say you are lucky if you experience it even once in your lifetime, and that's part of what drives me nuts about not being able to move forward with it all. I know it really wrangles with him and upsets him too.

 

He really does want more kids and he cries if I tell him I need to forget about doing that with him. On the other hand he wants his existing daughter to be guaranteed certain things.

[bulletproof]

...push for financial protection from my new boyfriend in whatever form so I'd be a bit better off than by myself somewhere else

 

I think this is a bad idea. You really need to be financially responsible for your own self, no matter whether he wants to financially support/protect you or not. It's not fair to expect that of him or anyone else.

 

I also think you need to let go of this idea that "no one could possibly compare" to the man you're with now. While it may feel that way, there are 7 billion people on the planet.

 

If your happiness with him outweighs all other factors, then by all means stay. But why not work on making yourself financially independent at the same time?

[mhowe]

Perhaps OP doesn't want financial independence. It would appear that way by her numerous posts. She wants security, but doesn't feel it necessarily has to be herself that is providing it.

[DancingFool]

Perhaps OP doesn't want financial independence. It would appear that way by her numerous posts. She wants security, but doesn't feel it necessarily has to be herself that is providing it.

 

She is gainfully employed and perfectly capable of living on her own if he were to drop dead tomorrow. Wanting to have security within the relationship and especially if the two them were to bring another child into the mix is completely different from being a "dependent". She is not a dependent and has made it plenty clear several times that she is contributing to half their bills as is. She is not living off him and she is not his dependent. Dependent would be if she was not able to live on her own and wasn't contributing to their combined expenses.

 

Given the laws and issues presented, she is absolutely correct to want marriage before having another child. However, she also concluded ultimately that she is fine without having another child and would rather stay in an otherwise happy relationship. This way, she has her security, can manage her life should something happen and can carry on without need for marriage.

[mhowe]

She is dependent on him for her lifestyle. She is saving £200 a month and has no emergency funds as her extra money has been used to fight her custody battle. She makes wnogh to pay her half the bills. Should she live alone...£30k is a living wage but will never be anything more.

 

She isn't financially INDEPENDENT.

[abitbroken]

* True it is always a bit dodgy to be involved with someone with more money bringing more children into the mix, I think reading this, I'm much more set now on no kids with this guy unless marriage. I'd be sad but I could let go of the kids idea given I don't want to bother finding anyone else/having kids if this relationship falls through anyway.

 

* I don't want any more men after this and would just live on my own and not have kids. I guess you can't know for sure, but I'm just tired of men now and can't be bothered after this one.

 

No, its not dodgy. There are few couples where both make exactly the same or in $1-2,000 of eachother. The difference is a man who wants to take you as his wife, and combine and share his life with you versus a man that comes with baggage or talks more about protecting himself against you. I can understand family heirlooms to be passed down to the child from the other side of the family or a certain amount that is set aside for a child that the child had been entitled to before if a child from a previous is the only child, but not to the extreme and not someone that would treat his child with you as not equal to the first.

 

I don't know what laws are there, but here, 99.9% of the time, the things you had coming in to the marriage remain yours. The exception in some states is dowager's rights. If the home is the marital home, even if one person owned it prior and the marriage, the other spouse can't just be turned out on the streets.

 

Also, I don't think you should give that up. During my divorce I had the attitude that I was done and would just be alone. I am glad that I did not make that my final answer. Its a looong life to be in your early 30s and decide to give up on men. The best is yet to come. Just keep an open mind WHILE you are focusing on building a life for yourself and your child - getting that better job and establishing yourself. And if your ex was abusive, counseling would be a good idea if you had not

[abitbroken]

Financially right now I'm no better off here than on my own but say 10 year timeline I might be, unless we are able to do something here to make sure I can invest in something too. I think there is a good chance I'll be able to invest in something here in the longer term. This is something we have talked about

 

You would live in a place with lower rent with fewer luxuries if you live on your own. Keep that in mind. And you shouldn't get "permission" from him to invest. You are not married where you jointly talk about where the money is going and what it is allocated to. You need an emergency fund, particularly because you have a child. In 10 years this guy may or may not be around, but your child will. He may be in college and need your help. Or what if he gets seriously injured while still a minor/your responsibility?

 

Honestly, if he owns the place, he should be paying the mortgage himself and you should be contributing by paying everything for your child, as well as paying a set amount of bills that you agree to pay - things that cost more for him because you live there, like electricity. But you get zero equity or benefit to putting towards his mortgage.Basically, now, you are contributing like a roommate and don't expect that to change.

 

If you don't take the job, you need to seriously kick yourself. If you really want to be with this guy and he wants to be with you, it won't matter whether you move back home for awhile. I think it would be good to get some space from him, anyways. Whether you remain single or he marries you, you have to increase your income level because you can't depend on him for any security in life or in death.

[aliceunderice]

thanks guys, my situation is basically that I have 20k behind me still, although I'm almost £20 k down from where I would have been fighting a custody battle, so I do have something of an emergency fund. At the moment I contributed an average of £830 per month to joint expenses last year. Our living costs here are really high like £3500 to £4000 per month, actually maybe not quite that high, I think he puts in £2500, but some months the account needs topping up by a few hundred pounds. Haven't been keeping track of the joint account in my spreadsheet, but maybe I should start doing that. At the moment £1500 of that is his mortgage. At first I told him that I didn't want the mortgage payments to be considered, but he raised a fair point that a lot of this is interest payments at the moment, and there are risks with having a mortgage. I get a better lifestyle too, and he pays for health insurance for my son and I. So I am getting a very good deal on my contribution. I'm paying for what I use up but am not really making his life any cheaper than if he were on his own. Stuff for my son like clothes and toys and travel expenses and so on does not come from the joint account, and I am a bit frugal about what I use the joint account card for, so I'm not draining his money, but I'm just not making his life any cheaper.

 

I keep very careful track of my finances in detailed spreadsheet and so on, but this year I have spent £4500 on court stuff. On average this year not including court stuff, I had an average of £200 left over per month. The year before living on my own before my other job ended without court expenses, it would have been more like £800 to £1000. When I first moved here, my job was only 6 hours per day. I kept them down partly as a play to the court to increase my chances in the custody dispute. My working hours have now just increased and I now have a permanent contract. I've told him I want to be saving £500 per month. I think this is reasonable enough as he can bank £100 k in a year on a good year, although on consultancy contract work, it might stop tomorrow.

 

I think stay here try to put away £500 per month with my new job, forget about more kids and just hunker down on my job. Also look at investing in something. The difficulty there is that the main way you do that of course is by investing in the property you are living in, which is not an option for me here.

 

My wages might go up a few thousand on a science job within a few years, although they are never sky high. The other possibility is that here if we did not have any more kids, when my current kid gets a bit older, I can commute to London to get a job in finance, reinsurance or similar. I've got a PhD from a very good university in a maths type subject. If childcare was no issue, I'd be changing careers right now and working my arse off in London from morning to night to get some money behind me, but don't want to do that at the moment because of my son's young age. Then again, what do you think of that, given my situation, would you put your son in childcare and go for the money in the City given he is 4 nearly 5. It is 1h30 commute and I would have to work long hours in the office. There is always also the risk with that my ex takes me back to court and says look the mother is prioritizing work over our child, he would be better off with me. On the other hand, my son has already been put with me, so I have the status quo, so it's unlikely to be completely reverse. A lot of mothers lose custody of their kids because the court deems them to be prioritizing work, especially if the partner is able to work less hours to be with the child but that's usually when everything is still up in the air. I would worry about the impact on my son's security of barely seeing me, as he's already been through a lot. Then again that would absolutely solve my financial security issues, possibly anyway. Could be that commuting and childcare costs wipe out most of the benefits especially in the period where I was getting myself established before any pay rises.

.

[aliceunderice]

I mentioned how much I had left over the year before on my own, but that was higher because of higher maintenance payments from my ex before he had changed job, plus tax credits you get which top your wage up, and I had an income tax free wage at the time because of a certain type of job I was doing, so was benefitting from essentially my net pay being considered to be my gross pay, by the tax credits agency, so it's not comparable to what I would be saving this time around.

 

I could probably put away £500 renting something cheap on my own somewhere else but no more than that. I might be able to get a shared ownership mortgage though or something similar. I'd be just outside the bracket for tax credits help, but would get some help for childcare from the government.

 

Moving away would make the London option more difficult. Not so much geographically, although it would slightly, but more from the point of view that my partner works from home a lot of the time, so there is some potential support there for me going for the money option in the City.

[aliceunderice]

hi abitbroken the law in the UK is a backwards on divorce.

 

In my partner's case anyway everything he brought into his marriage was put into the pot including the house he had paid off, I think, and his health insurance cancer payout, which was significant, but to safeguard his future health. It was all put into the pot and split 60-40 to her, even though the marriage was relatively short (she was having an affair by year 3) and she barely worked, and he brought significant money into the relationship. The cancer payout being split was the really messed up thing. He nearly died from cancer, and can never be awarded that money again from his health insurance. He was lucky to keep the house. His mum, sister and myself lent him tens of thousands of pounds so he could buy her out of the house. He has paid me back.

 

So from his perspective there's no way he wants to run that gauntlet again. It's all "needs" based in this country and the court has pretty much total discretion to distribute any existing assets and money. There might be some clever ways round some of it, but even people with a hell of a lot of money get caught out. There might be some ways to protect yourself, but they're weak, e.g., prenups are not legally binding, although DancingFool pointed out trust law and the like might be more of an option.

 

Thing is he doesn't want to marry again and with good reason. So I need to forget about kids and marriage.

[Ms Darcy]

I think all of this discussion is clouding the real issues. 1. Is having children your core value? 2. Is marriage your core value? 3. Is being with him more valuable to you than marriage? 4. Is financial security more valuable to you in a relationship than any of the previous (kids, marriage, being with him).

 

This is what you need to figure out. The fact that you can say that if you are not going to have children with him, then marriage isn't important/is irrelevant means that neither kids nor marriage are really your core values if you can put them aside for him so quickly.

 

So, the real question is will he get into a financial agreement with you (without children) within a relatively short period of time.

 

I'm just going to caution you, though, that I have known several men burned by divorced who eventually did remarry. I had one friend wait around for a guy for 8 years; he had a bad divorce and claimed he would never marry. Anyway, he left her for someone else - who he married and had a kid with. As long as you can accept that at the end of the day, there is a risk that he's not marrying you because he doesn't see you as "the one" (whatever that means) and will you regret staying if he does leave you in a few years?

[aliceunderice]

hi ms darcy, thanks for your comments. I think the thing is

 

* at this point in my life being married with children is what I want more than anything else. I kind of associate marriage with kids, so if I can commit to no future kids, then I don't necessarily want marriage, but of course then I'm not going for what I want at all.

 

* When I go through this thought process of thinking, well I should just stop thinking about any more kids, so I can accept not being married, it's because I really love him, and can't imagine ever loving anyone else that much again. So much so I would not even want to try to find someone else, even though having a husband and children is really my dream, I just can't imagine ever loving someone as much as him again.

 

* The idea of having children without marriage is something I really can't stomach, not after my previous life experiences. On an emotional level, I really can't stomach the idea of having children with a man who will not marry me, for whatever reason. If we were engaged and I fully believed one day he would marry me, with a cohabitation agreement to protect me financially, then that is kind of the absolute minimum requirement for me to have a kid with him. The way his attitude is though, and how reticent he is to get engaged, because he says he can't know if he will marry because he would need the law on prenups to change, does not give me the assurance I would need to go through even with this minimum approach. If he were much more pushy and forward about getting engaged, that would give me some confidence, and was making moves to get the cohabitation, or potential prenup in place, but he isn't really, especially given he has seen how upset this makes me.

 

* He talks about wanting children, and making holiday plans in February before that happens, and how it would need to be soon, but there is nothing firm in place. No engagement, no cohabitation agreement. I start pushing again about marriage or at least these other things, and I don't see him rushing to get these things in place. He even said the other day he would not consider one year living together as enough time to get engaged to someone. Then he tells me he really wants to marry me etc, etc. I am just finding this all completely emotionally exhausting. One thing I really want is kind of dangled in front of me, the child, but the other stuff is not there.

 

* If I did not feel so strongly about this particular guy I would have got the hell out of this the moment I realised there would be no marriage, as it is important to me to be married before children. I can't imagine ever loving anyone else as much as this guy though so I'm hanging around in a situation that really upsets me, trying to find a way to make it work.

 

* Conversations with my partner go around the loop of talking about children, which he wants, but me saying "but I really want to be married for that", and him saying "I can't do that" and "Lots of people have a family without being married, look at my friends who have done it" etc.

 

* He says he can't put himself at risk again in marriage, I say I can't put myself at risk again without marriage or at least the equivalent protection.

 

* We then get cross with each other, with him saying "well if you were really sure about me you wouldn't need marriage to have a child", in response to me saying "if you were sure about me you would marry me, with some sort of prenup"

 

* For me being married is important. I'd feel really sad as an old woman if I had never been married. If we carried on together, if we were still together and old, and he still had not married me, I would feel heartbroken as an old lady. Maybe that's stupid but that's just how I feel about marriage.

 

* I'm not bothered about financial security from him within the relationship provided there are not children. I've got a job, I will make sure I save something. If there are children then definitely I want some financial security here. This is mostly driven by my experience getting taken to the cleaners through extremely costly custody action totalling around £20 000, by my ex when we were not married and he a very high paid job and assets, who used his financial advantage to bully me in the court system.

 

* What I am trying to decide is whether I hang around waiting to see what happens or get out. If I get out, I don't want to ever try again. At a certain point a situation is just causing too much upset, and being alone starts to seem like the better option.

[mhowe]

Your 1st paragraph says you guys have good conflict resolution. Perhaps about daily chores and minor issues. But about the big stuff...you have no resolution. Your desire for marriage and another kid is directly opposed to his desire to never marry.

 

You may love each other, but your goals are not compatible.

[aliceunderice]

hi mhowe, you're right I mean that's the problem "Your desire for marriage and another kid is directly opposed to his desire to never marry", and that is never going to go away. Even if it is mitigated to the greatest extent possible e.g., engagement and cohabitation agreement, I'll still feel really, really sad about it. Having children with a man who will not marry me is just not something I can stomach.

[mhowe]

Staying with a man who will not marry you should give you pause as well. You will find someone else...if you leave. I cannot imagine subjugating my dreams for a man.

[journeynow]

 

* at this point in my life being married with children is what I want more than anything else.

 

If this is true, then you know what YOU need to do.

 

At this point in his life, he does not want to be married.

 

If more than ANYTHING else, you want to be married with children (plural), that means you want that more than being with him unmarried, or being single, or having only one child.

 

If being married with children is more important than anything else, it is not cutting off your nose to spite your face if you let this relationship go. (If you wanted to be with him more than you wanted marriage, then breaking up would be cutting off your nose to spite your face.)

 

Deciding to never "bother" with anyone after this WOULD be cutting off your nose to spite your face if your goal is to be married with children. Of course you don't jump from one relationship to another, you take time to heal from the break up first. Don't panic because of age, it won't help your situation.

 

Before you decide anything, though, look deeper into why you want more children and marriage, what it means about you, what you tell yourself about what it means, if it is true, if it is an ideal or a goal, and what would it mean to you if it never happened. Can you imagine being 90 and looking back on your life and see the different possibilities from that perspective?

[aliceunderice]

If he told me he wanted to marry me someday even in 10 years time and I fully believed him, with a cohabitation agreement, I would have a child with him. Despite all the things he says to reassure me, I don't fully believe him that he wants to, that he will if the law on prenups changes etc.

 

Being with him unmarried and having children but with say a cohabitation agreement is complicated by a traumatic previous relationship and breakup. In my mind now children and marriage go together really strongly. So much so my stomach actually turns slightly if I see someone who is pregnant and I don't see the ring on their finger, I have a physical flash of fear go over me for them and the child and their situation. I have lived through a really painful family breakup, where things were not strong enough and there was no marriage.

 

Although our situation is not equivalent i.e,. there is no abuse in the relationship and we love each other, I am kind of traumatised by this previous experience and now marriage is kind of symbolic of something. On some deep level, I have the feeling if it's not right enough for marriage, then it's certainly not right enough for children. On this level, no marriage leaves something in me unresolved.

 

Ten years ago had I met this particular person, even with him not wanting marriage, I would have been more able to say, well I see where you're coming from, it will be fine, and go ahead with having a child. But not now, it causes me a lot of distress.

 

Also, that niggling doubt, is it just something wrong with me, would he marry someone else, wrangles with me. Whatever someone says to reassure you, you can never really eliminate that.

[journeynow]

I think you are complicating it for yourself using "IF" and "SOMEDAY" to compromise YOUR values in the present moment. I wouldn't recommend that. You'd be going against your values, goals, beliefs and gut feelings, and I don't think you would really feel ok about that. If you want to look at your values, goals, beliefs, and change them, that is one thing. But trying to keep them and act against them based on a possible future, I don't think that will lead to a happy situation or a strong relationship.

[aliceunderice]

Hi journeynow, what you said "Before you decide anything, though, look deeper into why you want more children and marriage, what it means about you, what you tell yourself about what it means, if it is true, if it is an ideal or a goal, and what would it mean to you if it never happened. Can you imagine being 90 and looking back on your life and see the different possibilities from that perspective?" and also "I think you are complicating it for yourself using "IF" and "SOMEDAY" to compromise YOUR values in the present moment. I wouldn't recommend that. You'd be going against your values, goals, beliefs and gut feelings, and I don't think you would really feel ok about that. If you want to look at your values, goals, beliefs, and change them, that is one thing. But trying to keep them and act against them based on a possible future, I don't think that will lead to a happy situation or a strong relationship" is a really good advice while I'm trying to think this through. Thanks

[Ms Darcy]

hi mhowe, you're right I mean that's the problem "Your desire for marriage and another kid is directly opposed to his desire to never marry", and that is never going to go away. Even if it is mitigated to the greatest extent possible e.g., engagement and cohabitation agreement, I'll still feel really, really sad about it. Having children with a man who will not marry me is just not something I can stomach.

 

Now, if marriage and children is what you want, you need to move on.

 

What he's offering is children and, maybe, a financial agreement. You know better than to be a baby-mama again.

 

Please listen to your deepest values. And trust that a man who wants the same things is out there.

[abitbroken]

Haven't been keeping track of the joint account in my spreadsheet, but maybe I should start doing that. At the moment £1500 of that is his mortgage. At first I told him that I didn't want the mortgage payments to be considered, but he raised a fair point that a lot of this is interest payments at the moment, and there are risks with having a mortgage.

 

You absolutely should not have a joint account. You are not married!

And you absolutely should not be paying his mortgage. You are not married to him. Unless he puts you on the deed, you have absolutely no right to the house as his girlfriend. If you walk away, you get no money back from it. If you owned a rental property with a business partner or sister and walked away, your share would be bought out. All the money you put in goes towards HIS security and investment. There is no risk in a mortgage per se unless someone decides to stop paying it. Even if the market changes and one owes more than the house is worth, you still have a roof over your head. And if one holds on to it longterm, it is going to even out. If he put all his money in a very high volatility stock fund - then YES - that is more of a risk. But him telling you mortgage interest is so risky and therefore you have to supplement his risk - no way.

 

If anything you should be focusing your life on your child - you need to be happy, too, but do you want to show your child the example of this - that you really would like to be married, maybe give them a sibling, etc, and a stepdad or that its okay to be unhappy and adjust yourself so that you fit in with someone else's plan instead of deciding if they fit in to yours?

 

hi abitbroken the law in the UK is a backwards on divorce.

 

In my partner's case anyway everything he brought into his marriage was put into the pot including the house he had paid off, I think, and his health insurance cancer payout, which was significant, but to safeguard his future health. It was all put into the pot and split 60-40 to her, even though the marriage was relatively short (she was having an affair by year 3) and she barely worked, and he brought significant money into the relationship. The cancer payout being split was the really messed up thing. He nearly died from cancer, and can never be awarded that money again from his health insurance. He was lucky to keep the house. His mum, sister and myself lent him tens of thousands of pounds so he could buy her out of the house. He has paid me back.

 

So from his perspective there's no way he wants to run that gauntlet again. It's all "needs" based in this country and the court has pretty much total discretion to distribute any existing assets and money. There might be some clever ways round some of it, but even people with a hell of a lot of money get caught out. There might be some ways to protect yourself, but they're weak, e.g., prenups are not legally binding, although DancingFool pointed out trust law and the like might be more of an option.

 

Thing is he doesn't want to marry again and with good reason. So I need to forget about kids and marriage.

 

No - you DO NOT need to forget about kids and marriage. You need to forget about this guy and after a healing period find someone who has less baggage and would absolutely be delighted to have a child. He may not have kids - if you meet a guy your age, it is possible that he focused on his career and didn't meet the right one and never married or had a brief marriage that did not produce children. Or he may have one and really would love more kids. A couple of my male cousins did not marry until 36-39 - never married before, no kids. One of them now has two children.

 

Honestly, if you don't take this job and stay where you are at - you need to kick yourself hard. Here is a chance at advancement in your field and its a chance to clear your head. If he never will marry you and you still want to stick with him, he will live with the fact that you need to be away for awhile to secure your own security and child's financial future. HIS financial security will not cover you - as a girlfriend, unless he writes you into his will - you will have nothing for the years of paying his mortgage if he passes away. His daughter will or possibly his ex.

 

I played the game of sticking with the guy who didn't believe in marriage so I adjusted and didn't want to get married either. He did end up marrying me - but it did not last because he still didn't believe in it. I should have hit the door years before. Also, if you refuse the job, you won't have the experience to keep pace with his lifestyle and pretty soon you will find yourself being okay with a kid out of wedlock to try to ensure that he wll keep you around. Don't do that to your current child.

 

Trust me on this one. If you want to be at least open minded about having another kid - you won't have one with him. If you leave him its no guarantee that it will happen - but at least you can roll the dice and give yourself a shot at it.

[aliceunderice]

Thanks a bit broken.

 

I'm a bit confused what to think about my contribution to joint expenses and how this relates to the mortgage thing. My dad also said to me "Well his mortgage is his problem, so you are splitting things effectively £1000 joint expenses him and £830 joint expenses you - you're putting too much money in". Discounting the mortgage, I wouldn't want to split the bills like that given the financial disparity between us, so mortgage is being considered to some extent in this. There is £100 pounds he pays per month for health insurance, as he added my son and I to his policy, but I'm not sure if this is from the joint account or not. When discussing contributions and how the mortgage factors in, he said, "well you would still have rent to pay were you to live somewhere else" and "you're not any worse off here than you would be somewhere else". I don't know what to think. True that it is investing in his security, whether mostly interest payments or not, and meanwhile I am not investing into my own security, and don't have enough money left over to do this, after I've finished paying into the joint account. On the other hand, he would be carrying me to some extent if I significantly reduced what I put into the joint expenses, and right now I wouldn't have a mortgage myself, even if I were somewhere else.

 

Not sure how much my son and I "cost" to live here. There is extra food, the health insurance, the wear on his car, extra electricity, gas and oil, extra things around the house e.g., a bookcase. I'm pretty sure if you add it all up, it doesn't total £830 per month, as I don't buy myself anything on the joint account, and don't buy my son stuff like clothes and toys, so I am contributing to the mortgage to some extent. Then I kind of feel well I should be paying money towards having an actual roof over my head to some extent, but that is countered by well that is his security not mine, and I'm not building many savings up and there's a big disparity between us, meanwhile he's telling me he wants to have kids with me soon. Hmmm I do feel really confused about this.

 

I can't help thinking, if I were talking about having kids with my live in girlfriend but had made it clear I wasn't going to marry her, and I were the one to have a lot more money behind me and a well paid job with a mortgage, I wouldn't be expecting that much from her, probably just the bills that are more expensive for me due to her being there. I'm not sure how much I am paying above and beyond what I'm taking out. It's true I would not be able to afford this lifestyle on my own, but some of that is mortgage payments I am contributing to, which several people have said to me, I should just discount altogether when thinking about this. I'm confused really about this. To be fair, he has offered for me to put less in, and I declined, and he talks about making a joint investment in the future in my name.

 

At other times, though, he seems quite rigid about having things set up as more of a roommate arrangement, which I don't view as compatible with talking about having children together, so I get mixed messages on this front too. I remember him saying the money you are saving by being here needs to be split between us. The way he tends to look at it, he wants to split the benefits with me, so if I am saving a certain amount of money by being here versus on my own, he sees it as fair that if I am profiting from being here, then he should profit by the same amount versus him being on his own. I remember this being one of the first points, where I thought, hang on a minute I'm not sure about that. He really didn't like me pushing back on that and it was one of our first disagreements. Again, I don't know what to think. On the on hand what he is saying seems fair, but then again that seems to me OK for a casual relationship, but putting our lives together and having children, with him earning much more than me and having much more behind him than me, especially given he will not marry me, that attitude rings alarm bells for me slightly, although I'm not sure if that's fair of me or not. I find this process of trying to figure out what is fair financially pretty confusing. If we were married, I'd be chucking most of my money towards things, but as things stand, I obviously need to save for my son and myself. In general, I often feel confused and worried about the whole set up on a number of levels due to the lack of long-term security.

 

There's a lot of talk about children, but not the level of practical or emotional security that is needed to go ahead with that. When you start to talk about children, you're usually engaged by that point, or there is a firm plan that you know you will both follow through on to create the conditions of security needed. I think the problem here is that I'm getting quite clear messages about him wanting children, but mixed messages all the time about the marriage and/or security part.

 

Thanks for sharing your experience on waiting for marriage. Whenever someone says they wish they'd hit the door years before, it gives you pause for thought.

[aliceunderice]

actually I guess the split in contributions is not quite like that because he needs to top the joint account up by say £250 some months, some months I top it up too hence the £830 per month.

 

I guess the details don't really matter though, it is whether the underlying attitude is right or is something I should worry about which is what I'm trying to figure out. It may be that if we are going to have kids imminently and we are at the point of making the cohabitation agreement for that to happen, his attitude might shift towards looking after the long-term security of my son and I, in the light of there being another child in the mix, which is quite different from the point you actually move in together, which is where all that discussion arose.

 

The disagreement about contributions may have arose at that time because I was already looking at it from the perspective of spending our lives together and having kids and he wasn't at that point. Maybe he was just thinking from the perspective of cohabiting not considering there being any more children. We had already discussed kids at that point, but I guess he might not have actually been committed to the idea at the time in the way that I was.

 

He did say that he thinks in marriage it is fair that whatever is built up in marriage is split between the parties. I wouldn't even want as much as that given he would be contributing the most financially. He does seem to agree with me when I say to have kids I would want the equivalent level of financial protection from a cohabitation agreement as from marriage, without anything he had before like house and pensions, and I would agree to him being able to build the equity back up in his house that he lost from divorce.

 

I get really confused about all this. I guess the problem for me is I don't have all the information. I don't know exactly what he would expect to be written in a cohabitation agreement, so I feel anxious and confused about where this is going, and even whether I'll feel secure enough to have the kid we keep talking about because that depends on what he is prepared to agree to. I don't know what that is, and from some of our previous discussions, I'm concerned I might not be happy with it. Sometimes he says things that make me think it will be ok, but he has also said things that give me cause for concern.