Trying to figure out if I permanently destroyed my relationship

[christwowheels]

My girlfriend and I have been in a LDR (different states) for about ten months. For about the first seven of those months, I had been lying about the circumstances of my emotional incest relationship with my mother.

 

Background: Basically my Mom has been single since she had me; she hasn't dated since my "father" and her were together. She says she was raped by him and that's why she doesn't want to be around men; evidence has come to my attention recently that maybe they were just two mentally ill people who had sex and got pregnant and calling it rape is something she maybe did to feel better about it or deflect responsibility. Anyway; that's not the important part. The issue is that mom has basically depended on me as a wife would depend on her husband since as long as I can remember. I lived with her in the same apartment until I was 23 1/2; at that point, I moved to another unit in the apartment complex, because that was the only unit I could afford to move to (rents were low in the small complex) and because I knew mother needed me and I felt a responsibility to continue to take care of her, even though deep down I knew it had been holding me back.

 

Mother is a major reason why I hadn't been able to date for so many years and why I was a virgin before losing it to my current gf last summer.

 

Anyways, what I lied about was that I told my gf that I lived about a mile away from Mother, when in fact I had continued to live in the same apartment complex as her until I finally convinced Mother to move--and arranged most of the details--last November. Mother needed to move for a variety of reasons, not the least of which was that climbing stairs to her second floor apartment was getting to be a bit much, and now she has use of an elevator.

 

My gf had been aware of both the surrogate spouse issues I had had as well as the work I had been doing to move Mother into the handicap accessible building, she just wasn't aware of the fact I had lived *so close* to Mother until she found out in December.

 

That lie quite possibly has destroyed my relationship forever. My gf understandably feels betrayed and taken advantage of; she doesn't know how to deal with being lied to. She's also said she kinda feels cheated on since I was still so close to Mother for those first six months I was with her.

 

At the beginning of this month, I moved to a room accross town to get away from the memories of the old building, and also because I hoped it would make my gf feel better about me making more progress. I guess sometimes I feel that even though I'm working so terribly hard to make progress to better myself, I worry that I'm always going to feel like I'm pleading with my gf...look, honey, I'm working so hard, please stay with me. God I know it seems so sad.

 

While my gf says she thinks we can find a way to get past it, I'm left wondering if she can or not because things have definitely changed and we aren't close like we used to be. We don't talk on the phone even 25% as much as we did last year; she doesn't respond to my texts terribly often; no more good morning texts like we used to do. I've been trying to get her to help me figure out when I can visit her again, because we both say we want to visit. But while I am bending over backwards to be flexible as to when I could take time off to go, she doesn't seem willing to put in for time off for specific days; instead, we wait each month for her schedule to come out and then it always doesn't work out. Now I realize her work has gotten messed up lately. But I just am wondering if things are going to get better, and if there's anything I can do to make things better. I wonder if she subconsciously doesn't want me to visit and that's why she isn't trying harder to find a time when she can invite me to come out there.

 

Is this one of those things where my gf is never going to see me the same way and so I really shouldn't believe it is salvageable even though I know I would always think of her as the one that got away?

 

My gf really is the sweetest and nicest girl I've ever met and really has shown me amazing understanding and compassion for the issues I have had. I just wonder if maybe she has expectations for me I can't ever live up to?

 

What should I do?

[WithLove]

Okay. What do you mean by "emotional incest relationship" with your mother?

[christwowheels]

Emotional incest is when a parent treats a kid like a spouse instead of as a child--but it's not *sex* because that would be just incest. Although when I was living in the same apartment with her, my mother would ask me to help her hook her bra in the back, and that's part of why I moved to a different unit, because I could lock the door and not be available to help her get dressed in the morning.

 

But Mother and I still saw each other most days up until she moved in November. She would want to share the happenings in her day at work, much like she should have been doing with a husband.

[Longview01]

Okay. What do you mean by "emotional incest relationship" with your mother?

 

I had to read that line several times to just take it in.

 

Anyway going by the rest of the OP's post i'm not sure why he lied about his mother so much, I just don't understand it and don't understand why distance you lived from her could have any sort of impact on your relationship with your GF.

[christwowheels]

Well, I know honesty is really important to my gf. Obviously I know it's more important to her than I realized at the time I told the lie. I originally lied about it because it's embarrassing. Heck, the whole emotional incest thing was embarrassing. But in many ways you can't understand why I'm 31 years old and still haven't gotten into college unless you get my back story and how devastating my family issues were and to some extent still are, despite the progress I've made.

 

I also know that in addition to the lie itself, my gf isn't happy about the misperception I led her to have. In other words, I led her to believe I had made more progress in healing from my past than I actually had. So basically because of my dishonesty, she got involved with someone who was more of a work in progress than she realized. Which isn't to say she doesn't want to support me, it's just that maybe she in fact does need someone more at her station in life? Could I be so far behind her that I might hold her back? Maybe.

[WithLove]

I live in the same complex as my mother, too - one building over. 30 steps and I'm at her front door. I talk to her all day, every day through work emails. I send her and receive good morning texts every day. Mom is capable of hooking her own bra, but if she needed help, I would do it. I don't see how this type of relationship with my mother is considered "emotionally incest". At ALL. In fact, I'm quite furious anyone would think so. To me, she's just my best friend who happens to be my mother. We're incredibly close. I've never dated anyone that found her to be a threat - in fact, all of my past boyfriends have loved my mother, some of them better than their own.

 

I can, however, understand your hesitation to reveal how close you live to her. I myself didn't fully explain that she was in the next building over -- some people think it's a little strange. It doesn't bother me at all, but I know it might bother others knowing that she's so close.

 

If your girlfriend is having issues because you didn't tell her how close your mom lives - well, I think she needs to pick her battles, because it sounds like more attention needs to be brought to how you consider your relationship with your mother - not how close you live to her.

[mlh402]

You're relationship is clearly complicated given your relationship with your mother. I'm not sure if you should necessarily give up, but I think you do need to talk to your girlfriend about your concerns. For example, you should talk to her about whether talking on the phone less and seeing each other less is really just unhappy coincidence with timing or if she is starting to drift away. To me, it looks like things are definitely going downhill, but I think sufficient communication could let you know if it is able to be salvaged.

[relevart]

I think the oddest part of the OP is that you call her "Mother." That's very Norman Bates-like. Regardless, the post is really about your and your GF. Sure, you told her a lie and honestly is always the best policy. But I also believe that she may be over reacting. On the other hand, it may be the totality of the situation. She may have problems with the relationship as a whole whether she has said anything or not.

[christwowheels]

I think the perception is different though with opposite gender parents. When it's son and father or mother-daughter, it's more accepted. When a woman has "daddy issues," that sometimes is a turn-on for some men. But when a guy has mother issues, that pretty much dries out the vaginas. I mean it's made fun of all over popular culture, probably most notably on "Everybody Loves Raymond," a show I can very much identify with.

 

I know my relationship with Mother hasn't been good for me. I also know now that the only way I can hope to have a healthy romantic relationship with my gf, or if this doesn't work, anyone else ever, is to eventually have no contact whatsoever with Mother. My therapist mostly agrees, noting that because Mother is uninterested in healing from her mental issues, it would be detrimental to my personal progress to try to maintain much of a relationship with her.

[relevart]

I'm not judging you, but I will say if I ever met a woman with "daddy issues," that would be a serious turn off and dealbreaker.

[WithLove]

In my generation, most of us has mommy and/or daddy issues.

[christwowheels]

Yeah. I mean I know that millennials (and I guess I'm on the old end of that at 31) grew up in the age of "helicopter parents," who kind of monitored their kids at a level which was unprecedented in modern society. Which is weird, because stranger abductions aren't all that common, but nevertheless, parents seem to want to keep kids from being kids in modern society.

 

And boy did my mom keep me from being a kid. I never got to swim, wasn't able to learn to drive or even have a bicycle until I had my own apartment. I couldn't really have friends outside of school because she didn't want me to. She seemed to want me to just rely on her in the same way that she just relied on me. It's a lot to heal from and I know I'll never be 100% "normal," but I really hope I can recover to the point where I can be the man my gf deserves.

[derroax]

I too find the term "emotional incest" a bit disturbing. It leads me to think not just of something disturbing, but borderline perverted, if not illegal!

 

Having such a restrictive parent does sound very traumatic, however I know people who grew up in very restrictive families with married parents, or same-sex parents/children. This is not to minimise what you have gone through, the reason I'm asking about this is because you either used that term loosely, or there's more to your story that you haven't mentioned.

 

This is not just about how do you fix things with your girlfriend, but the reason you lied to her in the first place. There's clearly shame associated with this (and this is why you lied) and it sounds like you're seeing a therapist about it which is great. I think these things can be fixed - however, your issues (if you're currently dealing with them) will surface during your relationship with your girlfriend. If I was you, I'd talk with her openly about what you're going through so that she knows what to expect. Otherwise it would be unfair on both of you and would create unnecessary tension when these issues do surface. It takes a lot of courage, and perhaps tell her a bit slowly, if there's a lot to digest.

[christwowheels]

You can google "emotional incest" or "surrogate spouses" if you want more general definitions.

 

As to my personal story, duh, there's things I haven't put in this thread. I mean how much time have you got?

 

Maybe I could give you this as an example of the things I have had to contend with...when I was a kid, Mother would take me to the downtown library. It was actually a relatively pleasant memory, for the most part. By the time I was 9, she was in college and so she would find a table on the second floor where she could study, and I would go to the nearby Children's Room and either do homework or explore the various books. The awkward part was that she always wanted me in her field of vision. Now the Children's Room had glass windows so she could see me, but the restroom did not, and I remember many a time when I was brought into the second floor women's restroom at the old downtown library ("old" because it was demolished when I was 19). There was always a weird odor there, not pee, not poop, but something else. I never could figure out what it was. Occasionally, I would smell the same odor in the bathroom after Mother had been in there. It probably sounds stupid to you, but I never did identify what exactly that odor was until last summer when I was in my gf's bedroom and we were fooling around and it was time for me to go down on her. I was eager too...we had been planning to have sex during that visit for almost two months, so I had had plenty of time to anticipate the moment, as well as read a bunch of both helpful and bogus advice on technique.

 

So I put my head down, stuck my tongue out and...an oddly familiar odor and a taste to match presented themselves. I then knew two things for sure: that smell in the downtown library restroom was vaginas, and that I shouldn't be thinking about all the times I was told to wait outside Mother's toilet stall when I'm losing my virginity. I gagged. Now in my defense, I recovered and was able to do a fairly decent job at oral, but my gf felt bad about it and we skipped that part on subsequent encounters during that visit. I did tell her about why it made me gag, but I can't remember exactly when. I think it might have been after the trip was over.

 

Fortunately, I have begun the process of replacing my associations with that scent with good ones--for example, there wasn't time for me to take a shower between the last time we made love and when I boarded the train home, and when I was in the train restroom and I unzipped my pants and prepared to pee, I smelled vagina on me, and I liked it. A lot. That was hot.

 

Anyway, the point is that while things are fixable, my relationship with my mom was very dysfunctional and harmed a variety of aspects of my life.

 

For the record, my gf has told me that our lovemaking was good and that that has nothing to do with her struggling with our relationship right now--this story is more to illustrate that emotional incest is no joke.

[relevart]

Speechless. You must have a very understanding girlfriend. Have you considered therapy to get over the "Mother" issues?

[WithLove]

I don't even know what to say. Your girlfriend is a saint. I really hope you can work things out with her. I think she needs to know what she's dealing with. Have you been completely honest with her about this? Is she aware of the scope of your mother issues?

[christwowheels]

Your girlfriend is a saint. I really hope you can work things out with her. I think she needs to know what she's dealing with. Have you been completely honest with her about this? Is she aware of the scope of your mother issues?

I agree, she basically is a saint, although she doesn't necessarily like it when I put it that way.

 

I am in therapy for these issues.

 

She is aware of the issues as well as their scope and it is something we talk about every week or two, sometimes more. She has various things for which she is in therapy for as well as so I think that's part of why she can empathize. I'm sure it's a lot to take in. I just wish I had had more tools with which to cope at a younger age...

[SpottiOtti]

I don't have much advice for the situation with your girlfriend other than, keep being honest and keep showing her that you're working on the Mother issues.

 

But I did want to commend you for your honesty. I can imagine that it must have felt kind of intimidating posting this stuff on here, and that it took some bravery.

 

Is there a strong male role model you have in your life that you can look to?

[christwowheels]

SpottiOtti, thanks for the reply...I talked with my gf about some of this stuff earlier, and she's struggling too...we're both well aware that there are unique aspects of our relationship that we aren't going to be able to replicate with other people, and that does mean something. It's just hard because now we are both talking about hypotheticals along the lines of what we would do in our lives and how we would approach relationships if we were to break up, and not surprisingly, she seems to be better positioned to find another partner. One thing I know is that in future relationships--and I mean any type of relationship, including platonic friendship, it looks like there's a good number of things I will not be able to talk about. Lying is a bad idea, but I feel I might have to omit a bunch of things. Sigh. I wish life wasn't so hard...every day I kind of think, why me. But then I have to just try to grind it out the best I can.

 

As far as positive male role models, that would be nice, but no. Most of the guys I know are horndogs or older alcoholics or burned out stoners. I know that this summer, I'm going to have to try to have some kind of social life, but I haven't figured out how to go about it. Perhaps I need to buy a new bicycle and try group bike rides again. (A new bike would be necessary because my current one doesn't go terribly fast due to it's age and different issues it has).

 

I'm just looking forward to things getting better...I need some successes to build on without having screwups and sadness negate them.

[catfeeder]

How long ago did the lie come to light?

[petite]

1. People make mistakes, you made a mistake by lying and you've admitted it. She can either accept it or move on.

2. You come accross as very dependent on the girlfriend in terms of emotional needs. Would this be correct?

3. I'm surprised you have opened about the 'emotional incest' because most people do not tend to disclose these things until much later in the relationship. Does your girlfriend have any mommy or daddy issues or emotional incest with her parents? I ask this based on the stuff you've also written about her in your journal regarding her ignoring your calls while she visits her parents. To me it's very odd, to ignore a person you love.

4. You say "she got involved with someone who was more of a work in progress than she realized." Everyone is a work in progress, no one has it figured out. People that strive for that aren't realistic.

 

I won't pretend to understand what it is to have any type of emotional incest, but I will say this, if you want to have your mother in your life you can slowly work on setting healthy boundaries. If it is your girlfriend that's encouraging you to cut all ties with your mother, then that worries me because that would be controlling. Also based on your previous posts in the journal section, your girlfriend does not come accross as anywhere near a saint. Do yourself a favor and don't place ANYONE on that high a pedestal.

 

 

I think the part that really stands out to me is where you say "She is aware of the issues as well as their scope and it is something we talk about every week or two, sometimes more." and "we're both well aware that there are unique aspects of our relationship that we aren't going to be able to replicate with other people," That's why I ask whether she has any daddy/mommy issues because I don't think most people that haven't experienced that would be talking about it so often.

It's kinda like people that have been sexually abused, most will disclose it to their partner but they won't talk about it all the time.

 

 

I also know now that the only way I can hope to have a healthy romantic relationship with my gf, or if this doesn't work, anyone else ever, is to eventually have no contact whatsoever with Mother. My therapist mostly agrees, noting that because Mother is uninterested in healing from her mental issues, it would be detrimental to my personal progress to try to maintain much of a relationship with her.

 

Well, I am not a therapist but I know that quite a lot of therapists believe that the client is the expert on their own lives, and most therapists won't tell you to cut off ties with people, unless you feel you want to for yourself. Your mother isn't likely to change, but you can work on yourself and build healthy boundaries by which you live and that can include how you interact with your mother.

[christwowheels]

I do somewhat agree with your point 1, petite, although I would say it also would require me making up for it, which I believe I am working on, as well as her processing it. Again, it's not maybe as easy of an issue as you may think because I would say that lying is a bigger thing with her than it is for other people.

 

As far as point 2, yes, I would say I depend on her quite a bit for emotional needs, although I suppose most men do because aside from our therapists, there aren't many people to whom it's socially acceptable to tell your problems to if you are a male in this society. I am cognizant of the fact that my problems are of a larger scope than many people, and do not wish to make myself a burden on her and I do worry about that sometimes.

 

In point 3, you begin to make wild assumptions about my girlfriend, which is interesting. When she found out we had both been in therapy, she was interested to find out why, and also as it became more apparent that I wasn't exactly experienced in relationships, she was interested in why that was and so drew me out of my shell moreso than I expected. If she hadn't been so interested in learning about my issues, I wouldn't have told her all of this...

 

As far as ignoring my calls at her parents', that's her not wanting to have her parents involved in her love life or know who she is dating. I guess this is a lot more common among more normal people than I realized. I told Mother that I had found somebody fairly soon in the relationship and I realize now that that was a symptom of the terrible dynamic that she started and that I allowed her to maintain in my life and that's wrong. My gf's policy ultimately does seem to make more sense than that. I will admit it took me awhile to understand it, given that she is so close to her family, but it makes sense. She doesn't want to introduce anyone who she hasn't been with for a pretty long time. Apparently that's pretty common among both men and women...people don't need their parents' judgment one way or the other. She hasn't said this, but my presumption is that she would like to keep them out of her love life until she's certain she wants to marry a man and then only introduce them to one more beau--her future husband. Hopefully, that's me.

 

As for your point 4, yes, but I'm to the point where it's *really* messed up. Not sure why you're the only one who isn't understanding how bad it is to think of an awkward situation in childhood involving your mother when you're sticking your tongue on your partner's vagina. I've got big problems, petite.

 

As for your other points, you haven't met my mother. You don't understand what it's like to deal with her. Neither my girlfriend nor my therapist has said I should have no contact with Mother--note I said my therapist "mostly agrees." He says I should have much more limited contact. My girlfriend has said that there might be ways I could have a more positive relationship with Mother, and I have worked at that as per both of their suggestions, but it is clear to me that for much progress to be made, Mother would also need to be in therapy and she believes they're all quacks because once she went to therapy and told the therapist that people were sneaking into her apartment and moving her stuff around and stealing items several times a month, and the therapist was, according to her, acting like she was crazy, and she got indignant and wondered what was wrong with these people, doesn't this kind of thing happen to everyone?

 

Mother has problems. Mother won't address them. While I can decrease my exposure to Mother, any time I interact with her will involve a return to a dynamic that isn't good. As such, once I move out of town, I am going to change my phone number to match the area code of my new city, and she is not going to have it. At most, she would be allowed to write me emails. That's the most I feel I would be able to handle if I am to be a healthy person and a good partner.

 

I guess the main reason why we talk about my issues so much is that now that she knows about my lie, she wants to make sure I'm continuing to make progress on my problems. We also talk about her problems, and the various things she has to take care of--which are significant but which I'm not going to write all about here because it's not about her problems. The bottom line is that we did bond over having had a lot of issues in life and having had to go to therapy and we know now that sharing so much of our issues is hard on each other. Yes, it's comforting, but it's also hard. And so as a result, we have a unique thing here because we both are well aware that if this relationship works, it will be one of those rare cases where we can really truly open up to our partners. But if it doesn't work out, we know it will be in large part due to the burdens imposed by all that sharing, and so we are both aware that if we end up having to find other partners one day, we'll need to keep a lot of that bottled up until our therapy sessions, and only reveal that stuff to people who we are paying to unload onto (and in my case, a web forum too).

 

We've chosen to let our walls down in this relationship, but we both know it's a one-time trial and if it doesn't work, we aren't putting ourselves through that again. And that's why it would be doubly sad if I lose her, one, she's an incredible woman who I am deeply in love with, and two, I'll never be this close with anyone else again.

[petite]

When you say 'making up for it' what do you mean by that? What would you do in order to make it up to her? Why is lying a bigger issue for her than other people? What is so special about her that other people wouldn't feel that way or understand it? I realize this is your life and your interpretation of things is really what matters most, but remember she is an adult and if she wants to forgive you and move past it, then there is no need to make anything up. I'll tell you this much, my husband and I had plenty of problems (before we got married), we both made mistakes and said things that we couldn't take back, but what got us through that was our willingness to forgive and move past it. We did not owe each other anything or have a need to pay one another back, we just decided we wanted to be together and we found ways to move past it. I think that's really important; realizing someone made a mistake, being able to forgive it and move past it.

 

Because you say you rely on her for emotional needs, you are placing a rally big burden on her and the relationship. This would happen with anyone you are with. Being emotionally connected and needing your partner is normal, depending on them is a whole other ballgame. Do you think you can work with your therapist to become more self-sufficient in terms of emotional stability and neediness?

Something just came to me. You said previously that this is your first relationship, correct? Would you say (or do you perhaps think?) that you're transferring some of that emotional dependance from your mother onto your girlfriend? And that now because you do have a girlfriend you no longer need and want to be as emotionally connected to your mother?

It's my belief that men have never been more open in society than they are now, rightly so. I'm glad men are speaking about their problems, I have a husband, brothers and male friends that do talk about their problems amongst themselves, maybe not in a sappy way with a crying fest like women might do, but I think it's incorrect to make assumptions and say men don't really talk about their problems or have no one to discuss them with. It's my belief that this could be more of a individual thing and maybe not as accepted in your circle rather than amongst men in general.

 

I don't think I'm making so much assumptions as much as I am genuinely curious how it is that people become so open about emotional incest. I can understand that if someone has experienced incest themselves they would be more willing to discuss it with those that have similar or same experiences. It's just not something people really open up about easily. Really, it isn't. It's still very hidden. How did you meet your girlfriend if you don't mind me asking?

 

 

 

 

 

Your first two sentences absolutely make no sense to me. Where do you get this idea that it's common and normal for people to not want their parents to know who they are dating? It's only 'normal' if the person is hiding their partner from the parents, which then would make me question why they would be uncomfortable with telling their partners they have a partner? It's one thing for parents to be involved and meddle, it's another to know you have a partner. You don't even have to meet them right away, but basically hiding you have a boyfriend? Odd! It's completely different. Is this something your girlfriend has made you believe is normal? I ask because as you said you haven't had other relationships (right?) so I'm wondering where it is you're getting this info...

 

 

 

 

Of course it is, I didn't say it wasn't. Where do you even get the idea that I don't understand? I am saying that you're your own worst critic and enemy while placing your girlfriend on the biggest pedestal there is. It's almost like you think she is perfect but you're just the worst person there is. That's how it is coming accross to me. Being so hard on yourself will not help you. You need to realize everyone has issues, it's how you work through those issues that makes the difference.

 

 

 

Would you feel like that if the girlfriend wasn't in the picture? I'm simply worried that you might be feeling like this because perhaps this type of thinking might be influenced by your girlfriend. Again, I'm going back to things you've said regarding your girlfriend and how she felt while you were around your mother.

 

 

 

 

For people to love us completely they need to have a chance to know us. I think when people have deeply rooted problems it;s important to share those with your significant other. Of course they don't take the place of your therapist, but they also need to know why you are the way you are. So, while I understand you might think right now no one else would understand, that it would be a huge burden on someone else to share everything about your life, it's also what people in relationships do. I also know that every new love is bigger, better and greater. Of course because you're with your girlfriend it's normal to assume and think you;d never be close with anyone else, but most people move on and live pretty normal and honest lives with other people, loving them more and even being honest.

 

You're not the first person that's had to deal with emotional incest, and sadly you won't be the last. There is a member on here that has also shared things about emotional incest with her father, and I'm sure there are others that I might not even know about on ENA. It sadly isn't as uncommon as people might think, but it's also something people can be understanding of too. I get the feeling you think of yourself as a bit of a weirdo and that no one would want to be with you, but really that just isn't so, and if that is what you think, I hope eventually with the help of your therapist and a supportive partner you can get past everything.

 

 

EDIT to add:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have to add this into my post because I genuinely want you to feel good about yourself, and I came accross this post in your journal. Which makes me wonder if your girlfriend has similar issues with one of her parents (not really wild assumptions as you say) based on what you're written in the past. Which makes me wonder if this how why you've connected as you have...

[catfeeder]

How long ago did the lie come to light?

 

Maybe I just missed the answer to this?

[Unreasonable]

I've been watching Bates Motel, and Norman constantly addresses his mom as "Mother." They even make fun of him for it. Word of advice: Stop. Just stop. That sounds creepy as hell. I'd dismiss the "emotional incest" thing but that's tipping the scale for me. If you hadn't put so much effort in this I would assume this was a joke post.