She's guarded and afraid of losing me

[chewy21]

Recently had another thread going about this relationship. I was looking for advice on how to spend more time with her, because while we spent a lot of time playing online games, we didn't hang out in person that much. That slowly started to change, but since the launch of a new MMO recently, we've started to go back to how things were when I posted the thread. I haven't been too worried though, because when we do hang out it's more intimate, which was the real issue before. But the past few days have almost felt like a long-distance relationship.

 

Anyway, we had what I guess you can call our first real fight today. It started over text when I was at work. I'll post a summarized version of our conversation below.

 

ME: I think I'm gonna take a break from the game tonight and just watch some movies or listen to some music. Don't wanna get burned out.

HER: I think I'll do the same.

ME: Good. That way I don't have to feel like I'm missing out on spending time with you tonight.

HER: Do you really want to come over...

ME: What do you mean?

HER: Your message made me feel like the break I'm taking is interfering with you wanting to hang out tonight.

ME: No, I just meant that since you're not playing, I won't have to worry about you being on and me not spending time with you.

HER: Oh, okay.

ME: But for future reference, the answer to that question, phrased that way, will always be a straight up "no". No, I don't wanna be over there if you don't want me there. Which you clearly don't, judging by what you said. So I'm good.

HER: Ugh, I didn't mean it like that. I'm kinda fuzzy from the painkillers (she has an injured arm), I didn't mean it like "no don't come over", I just meant that I'm not gonna be very entertaining.

ME: I don't care. We're both gonna do the same thing anyway, so if you would rather us do that together, I'm down.

 

about 10 minutes of silence

 

ME: So did you want me to come over or something?

HER: I dunno, I want ice cream, but I'm probably about to go to sleep.

ME: I don't even know what that means, lol.

HER: Yeah me neither. Tired, arm hurts, sentence structure went poof.

ME: Yes or no works fine.

HER: Probably not on hanging out, but could I ask you a favor?

ME: Sure.

HER: Could you swing by and pick me up some ice cream when you get off?

ME: Okay. Now your incoherent message makes sense.

HER: Yeah, ice cream = great comfort food.

ME: So just so I have this straight... You don't want to hang out with me tonight, but you do want me to bring you ice cream and then just leave.

HER: Nevermind, I'm going to bed.

ME: Is that not what you wanted?

HER: Nope.

 

I had made it home at this point. I called and asked her what she meant if I got it wrong, and she said she wanted to have some ice cream with me before she went back to sleep, but that the way I put it made her feel bad.

 

It was at this point that I just wanted to figure this out once and for all. So I asked her what the deal was, why she seemed to have a problem hanging out with me in person. She gave her arm as an excuse first, and I reminded her that this goes back farther than her arm injury. Then she tried using school as an excuse, and I reminded her that we seem to have endless amounts of time to spend playing video games, but as soon as I suggest hanging out in person, school is suddenly an excuse again. She was getting frustrated at this point. Finally, she just blurted out "BECAUSE I CARE ABOUT YOU SO MUCH IT SCARES ME AND I DON"T WANNA [MESS] IT UP! There! Happy?"

 

I was speechless for a minute. "How would us hanging out together mess things up?"

 

She then went on about how she doesn't trust people, and that I'm moving into her trust zone faster than anybody ever has, and it scares her.

 

We went back and forth about this for a few minutes, about how she's been consciously trying to let me in here and there, but that I'm wanting to rush in faster that she's comfortable with. I tried to explain that I had no idea she felt this way about spending time together in person, that the only thing I could assume was that it was something wrong with me, or that she was getting bored with me and expecting me to start making moves. She assured me it wasn't, that it was something wrong with her. She said she "always [messes] up her relationships" and she doesn't want that to happen with me.

 

I can only assume that the way her relationships have gone in the past is the guys who get interested in her try to get to know her (or have less honorable intentions), hit that wall she's got up, lose interest, and leave. And she's left feeling rejected and blaming herself. Whatever caused the walls to go up in the first place is obviously something very personal, but how serious an issue it is remains to be seen. It could be something relatively minor that's just gotten blown up over time, but then it could also be something major.

 

Despite this, I gotta say I'm a little relieved. This is something I can handle, and I'm glad it isn't a lack of caring on her part.

 

I really care about her. I don't want to let this stay between us, but at the same time, I wanna be sensitive to how she feels and not just try to push past it. This is one of those situations where I have to evaluate whether I think the time and effort will be worth it. I think it will be. Obviously it can't go on forever this way, but considering she's making an effort for me that's outside her usual comfort zone, I don't think it will.

 

Anybody else have experience dealing with people who are so guarded? How should I proceed, and what should I watch out for? If you're guarded yourself, what would you want me to do if I were dating you?

 

I appreciate you reading, and thanks for any responses.

[cbean92]

she's playing games with you man! can you not see the excuses?

 

she seems confused. cut it off and let her figure it out.

 

im on day 9 on No contact with my ex. its killer but time will tell. don't be that "go to guy" when she wants something

[chewy21]

she's playing games with you man! can you not see the excuses?

 

she seems confused. cut it off and let her figure it out.

 

im on day 9 on No contact with my ex. its killer but time will tell. don't be that "go to guy" when she wants something

 

Thanks, I appreciate the concern.

 

I've considered that myself, that maybe she's just using me. But I usually have a pretty good sense of when people are being dishonest (theater major, I know acting when I see it), and her reactions today explaining how she felt were raw and honest. It's not a flawless indicator, of course, but it's reason enough for me to trust what she's telling me.

 

Worst case scenario, she is using me, and I get hurt and get over it. Best case scenario, she's being honest and me trusting that she's telling the truth helps us move past this. The upside outweighs the downside here.

 

Good luck with your NC. I'm kind of a veteran of the Breaking Up & Divorce subforum, and I'm here if you need someone to talk to.

[Madamdiva007]

I don't know... I kind of agree with the above poster and think she's confused as well. It sounds to me like she isn't quite sure she wants to be with you, but she isn't quite sure she wants to be without you so she's keeping you at arms length.

 

I would just leave her alone until she decides for sure she wants to be with you. She really sounds like she's on the fence and is making excuses.

[chewy21]

I don't know... I kind of agree with the above poster and think she's confused as well. It sounds to me like she isn't quite sure she wants to be with you, but she isn't quite sure she wants to be without you so she's keeping you at arms length.

 

I would just leave her alone until she decides for sure she wants to be with you. She really sounds like she's on the fence and is making excuses.

 

Thanks.

 

I think she's decided she wants to be with me, but that she's just emotionally guarded, like she said, and has trouble trusting people.

 

Don't get me wrong, that's not ideal, but I've weighed whether or not it's worth the risk, and I think it is.

 

One thing I haven't mentioned in all this is that I'm from a very small college town in Texas. There aren't too many prospects. I know most people live in bigger cities, where there are always a lot of options. But here, it's an absolute rarity for someone to come along that has the qualities I'm looking for. She's a gamer, she's smart, pretty, funny, she's not a redneck or a country girl, she's into the same types of movies that I'm into, and she introduces me to new music that I actually like. We click. Now I'm sure there are lots of other people out there I'd click with, but I'm not in the right place to meet those people at this point in my life. So while a perceived lack of options is usually a bad reason to take chances on somebody, I just can't be as selective here as I could be somewhere else. It feels like I'm taking more of a chance that I'll find someone who fits me better by cutting this off. And I don't wanna cut this off anyway, because other than this roadblock (which i believe can be overcome), she's one of the most promising women I've ever met.

 

The advice, of course, is to get out of here and move somewhere that there are more options. Eventually, that's the plan. But I just started the best job of my life in January, and I'm going to stick with it for a while, at least until I get enough experience in the field to move somewhere else with enough pay to live very comfortably. In the mean time, I'd really like to give Toni a fair chance. People are more than just their issues, and I'm willing to try and work past hers. I'm posting about it here because I'd like some advice from people who have been through this before, or have the same issue that she has.

 

Thanks again for your post. It does help.

[Batya33]

I think she's decided to choose her fear (or working on resolving her fear) over developing a healthy relationship with you. But she's able to choose her love of ice cream over her so-called "confusion" over whether to see you. See- when she really wants something she makes it a priority and gets over her fear (assuming that you are right and that she fears intimacy, as opposed to she's just not THAT into you, at least not enough to make the effort to see you in person).

 

The new game has nothing to do with this situation. Only her choices do.

 

What I would do - stop offering to be her delivery boy or similar (or her daddy, or therapist) and give her at least twice the space she seems to need. See if her fear of losing you for good is ore important to her than her fear of going on dates with you.

 

You might be willing to "work past" her "issues" but she is not. She'd rather play her game (and I suspect she is playing other games -she sees how high you are willing to jump for her) and have you bring her ice cream or home remedies for her arm, etc. It takes two. Don't settle just because you're in a small town. Sticking around has the high risk of making you jaded/bitter and foregoing opportunities to meet other people, even friends who can introduce you to romantic prospects. You only know that you're foreclosing opportunities by continuing to interact with her.

 

And no I don't have relationship issues -I am happily married and was extremely scared to start dating my husband again since we'd had a failed relationship years earlier. Totally worth it to get over the fear!

[missmarple]

Two possibilities.

a/ she's full of it

b/ she's full of issues

 

Take your pick.

[SpottiOtti]

It sounds like it is just going to take time for her to trust you enough to let you past her "wall". You do seem a little insecure in the relationship, as if you are not getting your emotional needs met . . . only you can decide how long you want to hold out for the results you want.

 

It sounds to me like she's got more than a wall going on, maybe . . . Like maybe she is one of those people who are very, very introverted and find it difficult to have another person in their headspace for long. She can interact with you in a gaming capacity because it allows her to maintain distance, but if it's one-on-one QT it gets overwhelming for her. If she is that introverted, odds are that isn't going to change. I have been an introvert my whole life, and while I have become more social as I've gotten older and can stand longer periods of contact with people, I have learned how to manage it so I get "alone time" to recharge, and if I don't get that time I become easily overwhelmed. Just how I'm programmed. You're a theater major - possible you're an extravert? Ever done any research in this area?

 

But ultimately it is her responsibility to find ways to deal with intimacy, not yours. I'd suggest coming up with some behaviorally quantifiable solutions together - it's apparent you need more intimacy and she isn't comfortable with it, and if that doesn't change neither of you will be happy. She'll feel pressured to be someone she's not, and you'll feel like you aren't getting needs met.

[chewy21]

Hey Bayta.

 

I apologize again about asking if you had relationship issues. As I said in another post, separating emotions from a discussion about my emotions is hard, and sometimes they leak in anyway. But I'm trying, and I appreciate your continued advice.

 

I don't think it's so much her choosing her fear or it's resolution over a healthy relationship. I think the fear has to be resolved or otherwise dealt with before that can happen.

 

I think the ice cream thing was a baby step. She could sense that I was growing frustrated over the past few days, so this was her way of trying to compromise. I don't think she realized how it came accross until after I responded, at which point she felt bad and got defensive.

 

I don't think it's intimacy so much that she fears, but just letting anyone in at all. People with those kinds of walls are always afraid that someone can see right through them, and that if they can, they'll hate what they see and bolt.

 

You're definitely right about toning down the pressure and attempts to see her on my part, though. That's something I resolved to do last night. But I don't want it to seem as though I'm breaking off contact. At that point, she'll just assume I've lost interest like every other guy and withdraw, start blaming herself, etc. And I don't want that, for me or for her.

 

I think if she weren't willing to work past things, she would have left it as it was and not felt the need to explain herself.

 

The only prospect I know I'd be foregoing by breaking it off with her is her. And like I said, she's probably the most promising person I've ever met. I wouldn't throw away a one million dollar lottery ticket for the outside chance of winning ten million. That analogy's probably flawed, but it's the best I could come up with at the moment. Either way, you get what I mean.

 

Thanks again. I always appreciate your posts and the thought that goes into them.

[chewy21]

Two possibilities.

a/ she's full of it

b/ she's full of issues

 

Take your pick.

 

They may mean the same thing to you, but not to me.

 

Issues can be worked through, and aren't a conscious decision. Using someone is a conscious decision, and that kind of dishonesty is near unforgivable.

 

So I've already taken my pick. I choose to believe what she told me. The upside outweighs the downside.

[Madamdiva007]

I've had MAJOR trust issues (probably way worse than your girl) and walls put up and it's never stopped me from pursuing guys I've been very interested in, or letting them pursue me. And honestly it's been a great excuse for the guys I wasn't so sure about.

 

Not trying to be harsh or anything.

[chewy21]

I am a theater major, but I'm actually very introverted as well. The way I handle it is using this logic: Any judgement made about me by the audience isn't really made about me. I'm playing a character, and the words I'm saying are the playwright's. I'm not expressing myself on stage, I'm just a cog in the production-machine that expresses the playwright's intent.

 

She, on the other hand, seems quite extroverted, in that she has a pretty wide outer layer that she's willing to share with most anybody. She's very easy to approach and talk to, even though she seems a little quirky, but that kind of gives her charm. So I wouldn't really call her all that introverted.

 

Unless I've got these things backward. Because me, even though I'm shy and withdrawn on the outside, am willing to share pretty much anything about me with people I trust. She, obviously, trusts almost no one, and even then is not willing to share things about herself easily, despite having such a personable exterior. So I'm not sure which area decides wither or not someone is intro- or extro-, but there's the relevant information regardless.

 

Either way, you might be right about her being overwhelmed by sharing space with someone for very long. I guess only time will tell there. And while I'm not gonna wait around forever to see if it works, I do plan on giving it a generous and fair chance.

 

Thanks for your post, SpottiOtti.

[chewy21]

I've had MAJOR trust issues (probably way worse than your girl) and walls put up and it's never stopped me from pursuing guys I've been very interested in, or letting them pursue me. And honestly it's been a great excuse for the guys I wasn't so sure about.

 

Not trying to be harsh or anything.

 

Not taken as harsh, just curious as to how you can know how "bad" her walls are, when your information comes from me and I'm not even sure myself.

 

The pursuit is obviously not a problem for her, it's that she really likes me and knows I want in, and that's a struggle for her. She seems to be afraid that she'll scare me away, but almost more afraid that I might actually convince her to let me in. I could see that idea being unnerving to someone who has a deep fear about something private combined with trust issues.

[Batya33]

Obviously you can choose to continue to interact with her - nothing wrong with a single guy choosing to pursue a single gal. You can choose to see this as the upsides outweigh the downside particularly since from your perspective you don't think you have a lot of other options to meet someone and you choose to pursue this person rather than be on your own. There's no abuse here, no serious harm.

 

You choose to take the risks that you're wasting your time (if a long term relationship or marriage is your ultimate goal -if it's not, nothing wrong with hanging out with whatever woman you're attracted to, no matter what her intentions are long term) and you choose to take the risk that you will be emotionally harmed -and become jaded and bitter- by continuing to pursue this person. Yes yes we all take that risk -I am referring to the greatly increased risk in this particular situation given how she chooses to treat you and how she prioritizes you in relation to the issues she believes she has. Again you might not see this as a risk and that is your choice.

 

You do get the benefit of the challenge of pursuing someone who is unavailable - that way you don't have to risk getting that close because she won't let you and you get the thrill of constantly being on your toes, analyzing her every word and move and racing to her house with ice cream, home remedies, a new video game -whatever she says when she snaps her fingers. This way you never have to be truly vulnerable given her "walls" and you can have that high every time she deigns to say something sweet or act affectionate. She knows she doesn't have to though -you'll come running anyway. Again -people can be happy -on both ends -with that type of interaction -it serves purposes for both people involved. Whether it's healthy well that's another thing entirely.

[sophie274]

Well, I have a lot of trouble buying the ice cream thing. I think it was pretty clear what she was saying - for you to please drop off ice cream for her then see yourself home. And I really believe if she hadn't meant that she wouldn't have been so defensive when you tried to clarify with her "nevermind I'm going to bed".

 

Seems like a whole lot of you making lots of effort to somehow tiptoe your way around her issues and nudge her along, while she doesn't seem to be trying anywhere near as hard. I think this would be exhausting and not worth it, but it seems you have decided you want to go ahead any way.

[chewy21]

Obviously, I disagree with the characterization in the last paragraph. Remember last post where I said that I agreed with you, that the delivery boy stuff has to stop? I meant that.

 

And I don't think she's unavailable, or at least she doesn't want to be. Otherwise, why bother going through the trouble?

 

For that matter, why push me away if she's just using me for the things I bring her? Wouldn't it make more sense to fake the emotions, rush into physical affection, and hook me like that? Seems way too much of a stretch to assume she's playing some kind of weird game hoping I'll stick around when most guys wouldn't.

 

Thanks again, Bayta, I appreciate your thoughts. Passive-aggressive agreement with me is certainly a different tactic as well.

[missmarple]

For that matter, why push me away if she's just using me for the things I bring her? Wouldn't it make more sense to fake the emotions, rush into physical affection, and hook me like that?

 

Why would she need to fake anything? You're still around, aren't you?

[chewy21]

Why would she need to fake anything? You're still around, aren't you?

 

I'm not most guys. Clearly. The nearly unanimous consensus here is that I'm being played and should break it off. Why take that chance when faking it would yield better results with most men?

[chewy21]

Well, I have a lot of trouble buying the ice cream thing. I think it was pretty clear what she was saying - for you to please drop off ice cream for her then see yourself home. And I really believe if she hadn't meant that she wouldn't have been so defensive when you tried to clarify with her "nevermind I'm going to bed".

 

Seems like a whole lot of you making lots of effort to somehow tiptoe your way around her issues and nudge her along, while she doesn't seem to be trying anywhere near as hard. I think this would be exhausting and not worth it, but it seems you have decided you want to go ahead any way.

 

I get what you're saying. But it really felt to me like she was embarrassed when she read what it sounded like to me. I think she was trying to make a compromise. Yeah, granted, it was a very weak compromise, hence my reaction.

 

And yeah, it's something I've never dealt with before, and it's gonna be a lot of work and effort, and she knows that. She apologized for that several times last night while we were talking. But yes, you're right, I think it will be worth it. I'm just looking for help from people who have been in her or my shoes before.

[missmarple]

I'm not most guys. Clearly. The nearly unanimous consensus here is that I'm being played and should break it off. Why take that chance when faking it would yield better results with most men?

 

I'm not saying she's playing you. It could be that she is indeed full of issues as I said before.

What I am saying is that people fake stuff for a reason. The same girl might behave in a very different way with someone who wouldn't put up with only 'seeing' each other during an online game and would have told her 'we either date like normal people or it's over'. With you, she has no reason to fake anything.

[Batya33]

"I don't think it's so much her choosing her fear or it's resolution over a healthy relationship. I think the fear has to be resolved or otherwise dealt with before that can happen."

 

Once again, there is nothing wrong with choosing to interact with her as long as you accept the downsides-you are both single and there is no physical or emotional abuse. I will put it this way. She is choosing to stay with her fear -i.e. not put in the effort to work on it - over choosing to be with you. Assuming she is being truthful (with you and with herself) many many people have walls, are afraid of getting hurt -obviously there are degrees of that. But right now she is choosing to stay in her comfort zone -because it is far safer to choose not to work on her fears than to put herself out there and do the work. Which she would do if she felt being with you was worth it because people move towards pleasure and away from pain (as she does over and over again -she chooses her game because it gives her pleasure, she asked you to bring her ice cream because she knew it would give her pleasure and that, given your past actions, you might be willing to deliver it to her and not stay and spend time with her).

 

Again, there are many upsides to pursuing a woman with her behaviors. She is a challenge, she keeps you guessing, keeps you on your toes, and lets you tell yourself you're in an intimate relationship even though she chooses not to be close to you (again, yes it is a choice - she is choosing not to work on her fear, so she is choosing her fear -over being with you). It's a safe choice, you can think of yourself as her hero as you "help" her through her issues (in my opinion what would be most helpful would be to help her find a counselor/therapist and be willing to talk with her once a week about her sessions if she chooses -and otherwise leaving her alone -letting her experience life without you and do the work she needs to do).

 

But you can tell yourself you're her hero, you pamper her when her arm hurts, or her big toe or whatever. You don't have to do the hard work of trying to meet someone else and then the hard work of being in a relationship where the other person does want intimacy and all of a sudden you have to be vulnerable in that way.

 

Not working on her issues is a conscious decision. She knows what her issues are -she has told you, several times -and she chooses not to work on them even though that choice means that she will not strengthen her relationship with you.

[Ms Darcy]

Well, it sounds like she wanted you to drop off ice cream for her and then go away.

 

I don't see what wanting you to do stuff for her has to do with being "scared" so I call bs on that.

 

I don't think anything anyone says will impact your desire to see her. I think you should just mark that if this relationships doesn't work out there were plenty of ignored red flags from the beginning.

[chewy21]

I will put it this way. She is choosing to stay with her fear -i.e. not put in the effort to work on it - over choosing to be with you.

 

Again, Bayta, I disagree that she's not working on it. I think she has been for a while and I didn't know it. Like she said, I've gotten closer to her faster than anybody ever has. I saw her cry, and nobody ever sees her cry. She could have stayed inside that night I came over, but she didn't. She could have gotten upset with me about it, like she may have wanted to, but she invited me inside instead, and spent some time with me when she didn't want to be around anybody. Yes, if you get technical, every time she refuses to spend time with me, she's choosing the fear over being with me at that particular moment. Barring an immediate reversal of miraculous proportions, that's how it has to go.

 

And this is the first time we've ever talked about it. Who knows how much harder she'll work once she realizes it's a big deal and could end in us breaking up?

 

It's cliche, but the first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem. It could be that she's never said out loud before that she's extremely guarded.

 

She is a challenge, she keeps you guessing, keeps you on your toes, and lets you tell yourself you're in an intimate relationship even though she chooses not to be close to you

 

Okay, it was kinda cute the first time, but you're entering personal attack territory now. I'm not an idiot. I know the difference between an intimate relationship and what she and I have, and I have no intention of deluding myself.

 

But you can tell yourself you're her hero, you pamper her when her arm hurts, or her big toe or whatever.

 

And this. Come on, Bayta. There's no value in this.

 

Not working on her issues is a conscious decision. She knows what her issues are -she has told you, several times -and she chooses not to work on them even though that choice means that she will not strengthen her relationship with you.

 

Since you're gonna keep using this, show me where you're getting that from. Show me how you know she hasn't improved at all since we met.

 

As evidence to the contrary, we have grown more intimate, she's let me closer in several ways (I have no idea and make no assumptions about how difficult that was for her), and she's made clear that she's trying to let me in.

 

She's told me exactly once what her issues are. Yesterday was the first time we've discussed it.

 

You can keep railing against this strawman version of me, her, and our relationship if it makes you feel better. I know you've got more to offer than that; I've seen it. But the choice is yours, of course.

[chewy21]

Well, it sounds like she wanted you to drop off ice cream for her and then go away.

 

I don't see what wanting you to do stuff for her has to do with being "scared" so I call bs on that.

 

I don't think anything anyone says will impact your desire to see her. I think you should just mark that if this relationships doesn't work out there were plenty of ignored red flags from the beginning.

 

No, nothing said here is going to make me want to stop seeing her. I made that clear from the outset. What I'm looking for, again, are people who are or have been in either of our shoes. I would like advice on how to proceed with someone who is so guarded, and possibly a little of what to expect, tactics that have worked in helping someone open up, that kind of thing. So far, in three pages, there's been none of that, only people suggesting I'm an idiot for giving her a chance, and people ridiculing me when I disagree. It's getting very old.

[Batya33]

I did suggest it -give her space, help her get a good therapist and tell her you are there to talk to from time to time if she wants to share what's going on with her or in therapy and when she feels available to date you and work on a serious relationship you will consider it if you are still interested and available. You just chose to reject that advice. And that's ok.

 

I also advised you that it's totally fine to stay with her and keep interacting with her on her terms -you're both single and there's no abuse here.

 

The more you write the more it's clear to me that you benefit greatly from the challenge of getting closer to her and being kept on your toes. Some find that exciting -thrill of the chase or a challenge or whatever - and I certainly didn't mean that as a personal attack -obviously each time she throws you a bone, or kisses you, or calls you her boyfriend - you feel like you've won the prize. That is what you enjoy doing and getting out of your interaction with her. That's just how I interpret all that you wrote. Obviously you can disagree.