Career moms staying home

[lavenderdove]

I do not mean to insult honorable stay at home mothers so please don't turn this into an argument of 'career woman vs. stay at home moms'. What i am pointing out is that it is a LUXURY in today's world and she shouldn't resent her husband because he is nervous and unhappy and scared at the idea of the financial responsibility that goes along with it.

 

This needs to be a negotiation between husband and wife. And if she went into this marriage with the understanding that he was a man who expected her to work and had no intention of having a stay at home wife, then she's changed the rules and is throwing all the financial responsibility onto his shoulders. Again, 1 in 7 women get that luxury.

 

A more reasonable perspective might be to sell the luxury cars, and let her find a way to work part-time but be at home when the kids are off school. Then everyone wins and her marriage survives and money gets saved for her daughters future education.

[Seraphim]

I don't think she even wants to stay at home that's not what I'm getting from the situation. I think she wants equality in her marriage that's the bottom-line. And for her to be equal in this marriage he has to think she's equal. And she has to put her foot down no matter what his tantrum is.

[petite]

Not trying to turn it into a debate Lavender, and I hate mommy wars, because I know how criticized both sides can be. I just believe that in this case it isn't as simple. It isn't even that she wants to desperately be a stay at home mother, but she would like to have a voice in the marriage, she would like to be able t have a conversation with her husband without him dismissing what she says, her wants, opinions or even needs. She just wants the same respect back that she gives him. If she listens to what he has to say, he should be able to listen to what she has to say, yet he does not.

 

That's where the problem lies, he doesn't want to negotiate. He just wants it his way. She has no say, and when she tried to even give an input he insults her. He won't even go to marriage counseling to work on their communication.

It goes far beyond just staying at home vs. working.

 

 

 

 

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[lavenderdove]

>>One one hand, shouldn't the woman have the freedom to choose, at least to some extent? After all, she is the one who will have to answer to her children for her choices.

On the other hand, the husband should have a say in this as well.

 

This is a sexist perspective... that mother is more important to the children than father and hence she 'deserves' to stay home. This thread has gone way off track because she started the thread by saying she wants to be a stay at home mom with her kids and her husband 'won't' let her. And now the thread has devolved into bashing him for not letting her stay home. Maybe there is serious trouble in her marriage and she or they both do need counseling to resolve this.

 

But he's not a monster because he gets nervous and scared at the thought of bearing sole financial burden for the entire family. He's got a wife, 2 kids, and two elderly parents in tow, so it is not unreasonable for him to be concerned, and he is not a bad guy just because he won't instantly think that her quitting her job is a good idea. They need to negotiate something that is reasonable and comfortable for the both of them, and if they can't, then perhaps they shouldn't be together, or they need professional counseling to work out these differences.

[petite]

No one has called him a monster, that I've seen. The thread has evolved as such because she had disclosed more information about him and their marriage.

 

That's the problem he is against counseling, he doesn't want to go to a counselor.

 

I personally don't care which parent stays at home or works. It isn't about the sexes in this case (mother, father, all the same to me), it is about bekka not having any say in her marriage about ANYTHING. Because for years he has been the one making every decision, he doesn't ALLOW her to have a say. He won't even LISTEN to what she has to say.

 

He doesn't want to negotiate, he wants to delegate, that's the issue, it's all about what HE wants.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Catherine_3]

Thanks for your perspective, Lavender. I don't disagree with anything you're saying and I definitely don't think it would be fair for a woman to just quit her job without her husband's buy-in.

 

A few months ago I was trying to get a job where I would work from home and it would pay $90,000 and I would still have my MIL watching the kids but I would be around more - at least for lunch and breaks and also not spending 1.5-2 hours each day in commute. He was so rude about that, still is. The way he talks down to me for even considering it. "Most people are trying to move forward in life. You want to move backward." And telling me he couldn't respect a person who would do that.

 

I also wanted to but a condo downtown but he refuse because he wanted the big house in the suburbs. I know 99% of people (including our realtor) would side with him and say that I'm nuts. But I hate the commute. It's time away from my family. Then with a huge house in the suburbs, I'm spending all my weekends cleaning. So you can start to see a pattern, where the decisions are all piling up in favor of his vision for our lives.

 

Yes, it's a nice life. But it's not MY life. It doesn't factor in my priorities.

[mhowe]

Have you just resigned yourself to living a life (not your life) on his terms?

[Catherine_3]

I don't think so. As for the downtown condo, he came with me to view a bunch of lofts and condos and we were actually very close to putting an offer on a nice two story condo with room for his parents, but I backed down as much as him due to the condo fees.

 

As for the cleaning, I've now "won" on that one.

 

And if I had given up, I would not be pursuing counselling.

[Catherine_3]

He wanted to take me on a formal date tonight but I said I wasn't in the mood, let's just do a movie instead. That should be good. He's making an effort.

[mhowe]

I think the counseling is a great idea...if only to have some validation that your concept of marriage as a.partnership is valid. And maybe he/she will have some strategies for you to fight his strategies!!

[mhowe]

He wanted to take me on a formal date tonight but I said I wasn't in the mood, let's just do a movie instead. That should be good. He's making an effort.

 

Maybe he has realized he is getting on your last nerve!

[Catherine_3]

Yes and I think the idea of me going to counselling really freaks him out. He feels like if we go to counselling, it should be older married couples such as our parents that we go to. He is suspicious of western counsellor who don't value marriage and will tell you to break up at the first sign of trouble.

 

Both of us were raised in such a way that marriage is permanent, unless there is physical abuse or cheating.

[mhowe]

I totally agree with your view on marriage... which is why I am single!

I never met someone I felt I could live with forever...until now.

A d at my age...marriage isn't necessary.

[tiredofvampires]

Thanks you for sharing TOV. This really hit home.

 

Was your dad generally a nice, fun, playful, involved dad?

 

It's kind of hard to answer that question, because all those words in the case of my dad applied, but the dad that those words conjure up for most people probably don't resemble my dad. For one, we have to get rid of the word "nice", because that's kind of a non-descript word to me -- especially given my dad was a very intense person and I see "nice" as more easy-going and sort of vanilla. My dad was not intentionally destructive; he had a decent -- even quixotically noble -- heart, but "nice" is the last word I'd use to describe him.

 

My dad actually immigrated to this country (with his mother, when he was 4), and grew up in a very difficult childhood home, which bred in him a brooding, depressive, morose, heavy personality. But he saw this country (the U.S.) as a land of promise and opportunity, like most of those in his generation, culture and demographic (and as most people see this country), so he did hold high educational and career achievement as just about sacred. However, the familial relationships he dealt with were adversarial and scarring, and by the time he got to parenting himself, he was filled with ideals and idealisms, theories, black-and-white thinking, with rigid, doctrinal views about everything, not the least of which was how to parent. And part of those theories involved fun, play, and certainly involvement. So when we were little children, there were fun things and play, and he was centrally involved.

 

The problem was, there was a shadow lurking over this and that was all the other ways his controlling, domineering, fearful, and forceful nature crept into everything. Even fun things were oddly regimented with him, and surrounded by growing conflicts, they hardly seemed fun. So the general tenor in our household began to take on the feeling more of a gloomy, strict boarding school as we grew from tiny children to older children, and then that progressed into it feeling like a prison. So the fun and play days of carefree childhood only lasted to about age 8 or so, really feeling anything like what other kids experience. Did I find it fun to eat ice cream and be allowed to watch my favorite disco dance show on tv (lol, yes, disco!) after dinner, yes. But it was overshadowed by the angry, argumentative, unyielding undertones, either outward or just under the surface that were constant, including his continual put-downs of my mom.

 

So the answer to your question is yes and no. And I don't know if that helps you at all, because I'm sure that even though your husband sounds very much like my dad in many of the most disturbing ways, they may have had very different demeanors (and one big difference is that my dad was not conventionally materialistic -- he did want money, but he didn't use it for flashy status symbols). If you envision fun as a dad who's joking and cutting up with buddies with a beer in his hand at a backyard BBQ, that would be in a different universe from my dad, that kind of mellow, jolly kind of fun and play. My dad's "fun" was making a meal for us on the hibachi and driving us to the University to watch the play "Medea." Which I did have fun with, because I liked to dress up and put on shawls (all of which were old ladies' shawls, but I didn't know it), as that was all I knew. And sometimes that was fun, but sometimes it was absolutely miserable because at some point on the way, he would start an ideological war about something, replete with yelling and saying such things as "I won't take Advil for your headache" when one of us would say, "Your shouting is hurting my ears." Your telling about that gives me a chilly deja vu.

 

Sorry, this seems more like a chapter of a memoir than an answer to your question, haha -- I guess the simplest answer would be that I felt like we had enough fun and play in my EARLY childhood to say yes to that. But because of his personality, that didn't last, and the general feeling I had even when things were fun was that there was a pall over things. Part of it was how he'd treat my mom, and part of it was how he increasingly treated us, because kids are just little versions of all the threats a controlling person sees in their world.

 

Was he involved? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes -- which later he would argue should have earned him top points as a dad. But "involved" to the point of suffocation and micromanaging and not letting me disagree or have a voice or choice made me envy children who had been outright abandoned my whole adult life.

 

I know that sounds extreme, but it goes to show that "involved" could mean a lot of things, and not all of them good.

 

See, those descriptors you used could describe an extremely normal and healthy father -- as well as one like mine, who was anything but normal and healthy. In and of themselves, therefore, those words don't mean much. My dad would often say later, "But what about all the times I did x, y, and z" (fun, involved things) and it didn't add up to better than bittersweet memories (at BEST) for me because of all the rest. Didn't add up to a hill of beans on the scale, much to his consternation in later years. Because he left out the most important thing: respect and listening to what his wife, his children (all daughters) needed, wanted. He was a stone wall to the world, and that's the lasting taste he's left in my mouth.

[tiredofvampires]

Yes and I think the idea of me going to counselling really freaks him out. He feels like if we go to counselling, it should be older married couples such as our parents that we go to. He is suspicious of western counsellor who don't value marriage and will tell you to break up at the first sign of trouble.

 

Both of us were raised in such a way that marriage is permanent, unless there is physical abuse or cheating.

 

I think it's great that you're going to counseling, but I find it very troubling that he is only motivated now to be on better behavior because he sees you going to counseling. What that means is that if he thought you might leave, those are the only circumstances that would compel him to do things better. I don't sense he's changing...he's trying because temporarily, he's scared. Which is good, but it's not a sustainable or productive form of positive action ultimately. (And it's also disturbing that he'd give in to you more as he gets more scared about your being in therapy, because that suggests he really does know he's behaved badly; so it's not just a blind spot, it's something he's permitted himself to do, knowing better.)

 

I also find it troubling how selectively he's chosen to adopt "modernity" -- in terms of values and also how he treats you. It seems like he's under the impression that he's "moving forward" as a progressive man because he has certain concepts about work and productivity within a family. When actually, he's taken all the rest of the Old World he came from with him. You said spousal abuse by men is quite common where he comes from -- well, that arises from a basic disrespect of women's voices. And how is this different? Because he's not hitting you? I'm wondering, with your attitude about marriage being permanent unless there is physical abuse or cheating, if YOU were born in the West? Because I was under the impression you're a modern, Western woman, and yet this orientation is strikingly out of step with the way modern Western women think, which is that emotional and verbal abuse can be as bad as any physical abuse, even worse. And these are very much grounds to leave a marriage, if there is no desire for change on the part of the abusive partner. Thinking otherwise is to diminish the nature of many types of abuse. I would say that anyone who believes continual non-physical abuse must be tolerated 'til death do us part is very much either uneducated about abuse and its toll, out of touch in some traditionally indoctrinated way, or living in a backwards cultural mindset.

 

By the time you're semi paralleling your marriage to a concentration camp and saying you can "find happiness anywhere," you're certainly not living in a marriage that any modern person "moving forward" in society would condone. So your husband is quite self-contradictory. (And I'm not sure if your own values are, too, based on what you said you believe about marriage.) He's chosen the parts of modern thinking that suit him. Outside of women working, he's stuck in a patriarchal model of domestic oppression. And he may just be a certain personality type, like my dad, and you can find those in any culture or at any level of modernity. But in the MODERN world, his behavior is considered unacceptable in terms of sustainability for a marriage AND RIGHTLY SO. This doesn't mean he's a "monster" through and through, and of course all people who stay in unhappy marriages like SOMETHING about their partners. So you're not the first one to be unhappy in an unacceptably undermining marriage and still like/appreciate things about your spouse.

 

It certainly demonstrates how ignorant he is to think that Western marriage counselors don't value marriage. It's absolutely the opposite! Their practices are devoted to trying to SAVE marriages, not "break up at the first sign of trouble." That's such a glaring demonstration of how little he knows about the nature of marriage counseling and Western psychology in general. It's pretty easy to jump to such a conclusion when you know zilch about something because you have contempt for it, as he clearly does. I'm guessing he has some pretty stereotypical ideas about how the West "values" marriage, and again, that's based on messages he's been taught that run in his blood about how a marriage is supposed to function. A marriage is not supposed to be endured -- it's supposed to celebrate each other, and there is no virtue in enduring a marriage when it is irredeemably corrosive. So if women from his culture think it's "valuing marriage" to endure emotional punishment every day, it's easy to see how he thinks his treatment of you is completely reasonable.

 

If he's serious about "not moving backwards, but moving forwards" like everyone else, perhaps rather than belittling your ideas about being a stay-at-home mom, he should get it through his head that if he continues to disregard and discount you, divorce IS in the cards, that marriage under those circumstances is not acceptable.

 

I don't know (and I don't believe, to be honest with you) if he's teachable. But the very first thing he needs to be taught is that marriage counselors are there to save marriages, and that is what any good one will be trying to do. In fact, no good therapist even ever tells a person or couple what to do: they lead their clients to come to the conclusions themselves. If marriage counselors were in it to tell all their clients to divorce at the "first sign of trouble," they'd have to tell ALL their clients to divorce, and there would only be one or two sessions per couple -- because by the time couples reach a therapist's office, there's quite a bit more than a first sign of trouble. You're usually on the 500,000th sign of trouble, conservatively speaking. Most marriage therapists say that they have to try heroically by the time couples reach their door, and even then, the odds aren't good; but not because of the therapist!

 

So really, for there to be progress into the New World for him, it would be to get himself educated on the fact that a marriage counselor is a "doctor" for marriages, not the executioner and that this has nothing to do with loose, fickle Western values.

 

But it's really good you're going yourself for now, because these things will become clearer to you and you'll have a safe place to discuss the things that scare you the most, and your options. It might also be a bridge for getting him into therapy.

 

Certainly, I don't think the actual question of whether his fears are justified or not about your working or staying home get him off the hook for the way he treats you as a marriage partner (and actually, they don't sound justified -- they sound pretty irrational, based on the income he's pulling and the one you might be with a home office, which is also very "modern").

 

He's actually kind of last century.

[Catherine_3]

We talked again last night and he agrees to support my decisions from now on. He says he expects me to give him full information (which I said I could do if he was open to hearing it but if he was going to be sarcastic or not listen, I wasn't going to grove), then he would have an opportunity to give his opinion and explain how it would affect the family, then once I had made my decision he would support it fully.

 

He also says I speak disrespectfully to him so I asked him to let me know when I am doing it and I will stop.

 

I'm at a point in my life now where I am grieving the opportunity to be "that mom" that stayed home with her kids or worked part time when they were small. I'm now moving up into executive positions and there is no looking back. This is my story.

 

I will be ok with this but it's something I have to work through. And it's further complicated by the fact that it's a grey area between whether it was 100% my choice, or very heavily influenced by him. If I had received an offer to work from home, I would have taken it in spite of him being unsupportive and even angry about that. So I don't think I let him make the decisions. I can dig in, but that's not how it should work in a marriage. I feel like he should have supported me. In the way I needs to be supported.

 

I know I'm weird. People have thought I'm weird my whole life. When I told people I was wanting to move backward in my career, everyone including other moms couldn't believe it. Everyone thinks I'm going to be a CEO by the time in 40 and our classmates from grad school see me as the one who "made it". So the idea of me moving out of management when I'm on the fast track was very offensive to pretty much anyone I told.

 

But the way I see it, I don't give a crap what anyone thinks, never have. And I feel I've earned the right to have my husband's full support even if my idea are crazy. Because it's my crazy ideas that got us this far. And if he's going to receive the benefit of having a wife who is a good mom, takes care of his parents, keeps a clean home, and makes good money, then he should be willing to support my wackiness and be there to hold me if in crying in guilt about not being home with my kids. I'm a package deal.

[Batya33]

It's sad that choosing to be a full-time mom is seen as moving backward.

[Catherine_3]

I agree. Working women are constantly making "backward" choices to balance between kids and work. My boss, in spite of being widely regarded as one if the brightest people in the industry, turns down promotion after promotion because she doesn't want more time away from her daughter. One of our consultants, who gets paid $500/hour, left her very successful full time career 8 years ago when she had kids, and is just slowly coming back part time. I see examples of this all around.

 

My husband says I send mixed messages when, one minute I'm working to move my career forward, and the next minute I'm trying to get more time with my kids. I don't see it as inconsistent. I think this defines the working mom. We are constantly balancing the two , in our own way.

[Batya33]

I agree. Working women are constantly making "backward" choices to balance between kids and work. My boss, in spite of being widely regarded as one if the brightest people in the industry, turns down promotion after promotion because she doesn't want more time away from her daughter. One of our consultants, who gets paid $500/hour, left her very successful full time career 8 years ago when she had kids, and is just slowly coming back part time. I see examples of this all around.

 

My husband says I send mixed messages when, one minute I'm working to move my career forward, and the next minute I'm trying to get more time with my kids. I don't see it as inconsistent. I think this defines the working mom. We are constantly balancing the two , in our own way.

 

I agree with you. I will strive to achieve the same balance when I return to working outside the home. I already know what some of my preferences and boundaries are but it will depend on what's out there too. You also have to know yourself -I know that I cannot stand not pulling my weight at work (and then some) so I don't want to take the kind of job where I would feel like I was regularly asking colleagues to help me out because of a child-care or child activity situation, etc. Everyone has emergencies but I want those to be few and far between. I may have to make sacrifices in salary/type of job, part-time v. full-time but that's ok with me. I think it's important to know what your standards are for yourself (most of us have strong work ethics but I know some people feel more comfortable asking for time off or asking to leave early on a random day because of family responsibilities).

[Catherine_3]

This has been a rough process for me and I think I experiences depression today. I've never felt that before in my life. My whole body ached and I had no energy. At the store I had to keep sitting down. I kept thinking of this commercial that says "depression hurts". Then I keep crying, which is rare for me.

 

I know it's also the stress of the new job I start in a week. But mostly I think it's this thread and having to face a lot of unpleasant truths.

 

Earlier in the thread I said the problem isn't me. I now know that's wrong. I don't establish and enforce boundaries. I am not consistent and I realize that I often can send mixed messages.

 

I'm also watching my husband with the girls and seeing the two sides. He is seriously so warm and sweet. Not like in a dark creepy way but just genuinely so fun and loving. But he is also strict and has these incidents that sound similar to your dad's Lavender (reminds me of our Sea World adventure).

 

Thanks to all who contributed and helped me work through this and didn't let me he away with my bs (petite - thanks for pointing out that no life, not even mind (haha) is perfect)

[lavenderdove]

>>sound similar to your dad's Lavender (reminds me of our Sea World adventure).

 

that's wasn't me... some other poster? Never been to Sea World...

[Catherine_3]

Sorry Lavender, I meant TOV.

[Catherine_3]

I've started counselling and it's helping. He has also handled this well.

 

Two nights ago he got a bottle if champagne and we hung out for the evening. Last night he said he would be fine with me staying home if that's what I wanted. He even came up with a financial plan that involves selling a lot if our assets and knocking off the debt.

 

I have to admit, until now there was never much of an opportunity to discuss staying home. My income was the stable one. Quitting my job would have literally been a survival crisis. I have to stop beating myself for not being a stay at home mom, and just give myself credit for supporting the family.

 

So now I have to figure out what I want. Im starting this exciting new opportunity in a week. It will be an incredible opportunity for my growth and self-discovery. Lots of opportunity to screw up enormously and learn from my mistakes. On the other hand, I can now consider the prospect of staying home with my girls until my toddler starts school. And that would be cool too. I'm going to sit on it. I don't have to make a decision today. I'll start the new job. Maybe we will list the house, just to see if we get any good offers. Our neighbours' homes are selling/sold for considerably more than what we paid for ours, so that could cover the realtor fees plus a good chunk extra.

 

I honestly have no idea what I'm going to do and I love that feeling because I can explore what I truly want and need to do, and then make my decision and be at peace with it. Own my successes and failures.

[petite]

Hi bekka,

 

How are things going now?

 

That's good that you were able to see a counselor so fast!

 

 

Do you think your husband might change his mind and go back to not being supportive about staying at home (if that was what you wanted), or do you think he just said it because he knows you wouldn't actually do that since you're staring a new job.

 

I'm a little surprised he changed his tune so quickly. Perhaps it's fear.

 

 

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[Catherine_3]

The counselling has been going well. I told her everything on here, as well as an honest account of our relationship history. I have also shared with her some of the recent arguments, negotiations, etc. between my husband and I, to give more insight into how we communicate. She also wanted to know other things about my life - friends, hobbbies, etc.

 

She says I am living "my" life, that I did choose and create this life. I need to let go of the life I thought I would be living, and embrace this one. We're working at breaking down my life into its various components and figuring out whether we need to reconfigure them a bit. Not just looking at one issue in isolation, but stepping back and figuring out how it all needs to fit together.

 

She also says that the relationship between my husband and I is lovely and that we have something rare. She acknowledges that things were very rough for some time, and that we both have things we need to work on, but she still seems very positive about us overall.

 

I doubt I'll quit my job. I really love it. I started a week ago. It's so challenging! It makes me really happy and I feel accomplished.

 

At home, I get very stressed out sometimes. I get tired of making meals, washing up, cleaning, making more meals, washing up... Yesterday I prepared a meal for my kids and then I was washing up and it took so long for me to clean everything, that they needed a snack before I was even done washing up. I also hate sweeping the same floors over and over again. I love hanging out with my kids but I get sensory overload when they're both talking to me at the same time (which happens all day long, from morning to night) and I have a long list of things I need to do, and I feel guilty for not playing with them. The level of stress I experience at home is 1000 x greater than what I experience at work - even with deadlines or giving presentations. It's more fulfilling and I adore my kids, but it's also more stressful and I get impatient. I also see some of my friends who are the same way, and they get so impatient and frustrated with their kids. I don't want to be like that. I think working is so good for me.

 

Anyway, we got a really sweet nanny for 4 months this summer. I'm completely in love with her, and so are the kids. My MIL is going home for that period of time, so we'll try the nanny out. She's a university student and this is just a summer job. But if it works really well, I may consider just going with a nanny full time from now on.