Career moms staying home

[itsallgrand]

I'm sorry to hear that bekka!

 

All I have to say about that is that it's impossible to win long term by allowing oneself to be manipulated. I am not talking a win that means he loses. I mean a situation where things can truly get better.

 

Did you say anything to him about him refusing to show affection and wagging his finger in your face? That sounds intimidating. It sounds like he is posturing with the intent of intimidating you into doing what he wants.

 

Did the kids see that?

[Catherine_3]

When he did it I said "don't up your finger in my face" and I took the kids upstairs. Later I brought it up and he denied having done it.

 

We went for breakfast as a family but then I've spent the rest of the day at a friend's place with some of my mom friends. Loads of kids for my girls to play with and ladies for me to chat with and my H had some time to chill on his own.

 

My energy has been drained by all the emotion I put into this self-exploration. I also am starting a new job in a week, which technically I'm insanely under qualified for, so I've been putting a lot of energy into preparing mentally for that and reaching out to some extremely successful women in my community for advice and support. That's also draining because they all have emotional and family and relationship issues as well. It's been a big week.

[mhowe]

Sorry to hear of all that. Seems like you are between a rock and a hard place.

And trying to communicate with a man who has no idea of the word compromise.

 

Look at some of Petites posts. She is married...I am not.

 

But I vowed from watching my parents dynamic...in many ways like yours..that I would never compilate to a man at the cost of dignity as my mother did.

 

If you don't think your daughters are not learning from your relationship with your husband... think again. Please.

[Catherine_3]

I think that people and situations are far too complex and multidimensional to judge from a few one sides anonymous posts. But there is a lot of truth in here and I have a lot to think about. I really really appreciate these comments.

[mhowe]

Bekka..I feel for you and am not judging you at all.

But children learn lessons...both positive and negative, as the basis of what they know of love from the dynamic between their parents.

 

My mum was an awesome mother.

My father was an incredibly successful businessman.

But much like your husband, he tried to stifle her voice...because of his own insecurity.

 

As a child...I only learned and was angered by that lesson.

As I matured, I vowed that I would never be that part of my mother...cowed by a man.

In every other respect...I honor my mum.

 

But that is lesson that your daughters should not learn.

Because it took years to truly realize that a true partner does not put you down because of his weakness. A true partner celebrates your strength.

[Catherine_3]

I don't know if every bone in my body is pulling back and reacting defensively because I'm just not ready to face the full truth of the situation, or if it because it's just not accurately bring represented here. Hopefully I can better work through this with a counsellor who can sit down with me on multiple occasions and understand the nuances and the details of my life.

 

My mom was the strongest, toughest woman I've known. She comes from a long line of hard working, tough as nails women. I follow in that line. She was always taken down by men though. (Three of them by now ) I remember reading court documents about the days leading up to my father's death, and how she seemed to the doctors as so naive and weak for loving and believing in my father (who days later died of a drug overdose in rehab). I remember reading those documents and thinking "is this the woman I know?" Because she is truly the toughest, wisest woman I've known. I don't think we are brought down by our gender. It's not about man vs. woman. It's our nature. Choosing love, peace, believing in our loved ones even when no one else can see it.

 

The Dalai Lama says you can find happiness even in a concentration camp. You can find ways. He likens this to being in a job that is monotonous. Buoy can be happy anywhere.

 

I get that people don't understand why I would never leave my marriage. But to conclude that it's just weakness and stupidity, I don't think that is an entirely accurate conclusion. Things can be complicated and if you think you have all the answers, it's probably because you don't see what someone else sees, through their eyes.

[mhowe]

Hey...no one but you can make a decision about leaving your marriage.

 

what I will say is that by the time I was a young teen, I began questioning my mum why she staid with dad. And her answer was 'because I could not provide for you on my own".

 

And that answer, in an of itself, made me VOW that I would NEVER be dependent on a man for my financial security.

 

Again..for whatever reasons you married and had kids...if you do not think they are seeing your lack of voice and capitulation... I knew it before I was 10.

 

Beckka...you appear to be an intelligent woman. But you are, by example, teaching your daughters that their voice is not worthy to be heard.

[petite]

I hope my last post didn't come accross as such to make you think that I'm saying you should divorce.

I am also not saying that you're weak or stupid. Don't know where that at came from.

 

You're an adult and you makes your own choices. You don't have to get divorced in order to change what is happening, but he has to be a willing participant.

It's all great to say that people are multidimensional which you've said before, but the fact is your husband is pretty square black and white. Doesn't want to even listen to what you've got to say! He wants all the power. Now you can do whatever you can to mould yourself to make things better, but really it shouldn't just be YOU that's doing the work.

He's simply unwilling.

 

I hope the counselor helps you, I hope they help you realize some things, but end of the day you can only control your own actions. If you keep letting everything slide...well you will be in this exact situation for the rest of your life with him. He's manipulative and knows exactly how to get all the control. He can be the nicest person in the world, but the fact remains that his treatment of you in some (read many) instances and the need to control you isn't anything new and isn't likely to change unless you put a stop to it.

 

I've been fortunate enough to meet the Dalai Lama, there was a post in my old journal which I think you might have read but he also says "Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions." He also says "All suffering is caused by ignorance. People inflict pain on others in the selfish pursuit of their own happiness or satisfaction."

 

And while I agree with many things the Dalai Lama might say, I'm sorry but I do know people that have been in concentration camps and well...no you can't find happiness everywhere, when there are people that are constantly trying to bring you down. When people want to ruin you, control you...

 

One of my dearest friend's ( we met through her ex and she's since married, has a lovely child and lives overseas - we are all very happy for her) was all over the world papers this week because finally after two decades the remains of her mother's body (which she held in her arms as an 8yr old girl) were finally found. I know many war survivors and they did not find happiness while they endured the worst pain and torture one could only imagine if they've been fortunate enough to not go through that.

 

It's seems like you're looking for happiness by moulding yourself to your husband's wants and needs, thus really all you're doing is allowing him more control.

 

I'm not an advocate of divorce at the first step of trouble, my parents have bee married for a very, very long time. I believe marriage can work, but a happy marriage works only if both participants are willing to make it work and care about what the other person says. If he doesn't even listen to you, how are you going to get through to him?

 

 

 

 

 

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[Catherine_3]

I tried to talk to him tonight but at the end of a half hour conversation, the best he could say was "I'm not going to take Advil for your headache".

[petite]

Sorry but he's just offensive at this point.

 

Do you love him? And, do you think he will ever be willing to change his ways? Will you and your views matter to him, ever? You know him best, you also probably know the answers.

[tiredofvampires]

The Dalai Lama says you can find happiness even in a concentration camp. You can find ways. He likens this to being in a job that is monotonous. Buoy can be happy anywhere.

 

I'm a little late to this thread, having just seen it today. So my reading of the posts is not complete.

 

But I just wanted to put something in here, about what you said above.

 

I think the Dalai Lama is absolutely right -- but the difference between your situation and a concentration camp (well, there are a lot of differences, but we're using the analogy for now) is that you aren't stuck in a situation from which there is no escape, so the only resort you have left to you is to work on your own mind. If I knew I were going to a gas chamber, and I had the training of the Dalai Lama, I would go in with as much awareness and use of my mind as I could, as that tradition teaches (and you'd have to be a master at that stage to find peace and to break free of the causes of suffering, which is the core of the teachings, in that moment.)

 

But you are still living in a world of choices, and that's the difference. Practical choices. And the Dalai Lama would never advocate not making changes to your life to improve the circumstances, if you can, just to reconcile yourself with what's bad. He also says, by all means, you must employ all actions that could improve the situation.

 

This kind of thinking (yours) reminds me of my mom's. She stayed with my dad even though he was the kind of person who needed to be right, like your husband, and needed absolute control over the dynamics with my mom; and ultimately, as we grew up as children with independent minds of our own, he did his best to squelch that, too. It wasn't as apparent when we were small children, but as children get older and naturally develop their own voice and should be encouraged in that, he only saw challenges, threats, and obstructions to his "rightness", which turned into a nightmare battle of wills in adolescence and onwards. So your husband will probably do to your children what he's doing to you, eventually.

 

And my mom would counsel me when I felt silenced and diminished, "You have to just think of him as a barking dog. And find your own strength."

 

She said that to survive in the situation. And she was telling me, "Just learn how to bear it. Like me. I'm getting to a point of peace in my 'concentration camp', and you can, too."

 

I have still not forgiven her for that, which I saw as abdication, though I'm getting a little closer. In my 40's. Her message of "strength", while being so fearful of leaving, were a hollow joke to me.

 

When I talk to her about all the things my father did to silence anyone else and all this did to me (the story's gotten old by now), and how could she have not divorced him, she maintains that "It was complicated; there were many things that you don't understand, having not been in my situation. You don't understand the nuances of how I felt, and all the things I had to weigh out." Well maybe I didn't. She tells me, "I did all I could do THEN. I didn't see any other options THEN. Maybe now I can say I should have done this or done that. But that was then, and I only did what I could do then, THEN." So she is still defending her trying to make peace with having told us we all need to learn to find peace living in a concentration camp, because look how well she's doing it. She still justifies these CHOICES with "it's all hindsight, it was complicated and we only learn what we learn when we learn it; I had my path." Right. Your path. You know...that doesn't make the harm it did me any less.

 

I hope that doesn't come out too harsh...but it's something to think about, from a grown daughter's life perspective.

 

There's one thing that's not multifaceted or complicated here: your husband will not go to marriage counseling. That to me says it ALL. To me, right there, end of story. Admitting that if there's a problem, he's part of it and WANTS to be part of the solution, is not something he can do, and there's no "but" to that.

 

You can't find a silver lining around that.

[tiredofvampires]

Your husband is a bully. And he will bully and say demeaning things to your children as well, when they get old enough to cross him with their own ideas.

[Catherine_3]

Thanks you for sharing TOV. This really hit home.

 

Was your dad generally a nice, fun, playful, involved dad?

[Seraphim]

Bekka, people can be different things to different people as you know. It is not the same relationship being son to a mother as it is husband-and-wife and father to a child. These are completely utterly different relationships with different balances of power. He may be a good dad and he may be a good son but he's not a good husband. And in not being a good husband he's not a good role model for his daughters. You have no power in this relationship ,Bekka. That will eventually grind you down so much you won't even know how to get out and it will affect your daughters I can guarantee it. And as TOV mentioned and mhowe mentioned children gain their own mind one day. And one day he won't like that they have an opinion of their own either.

[Seraphim]

And children model their future relationships on watching their parent's relationship. And a daughter learns her value in the world from her father. And a child knows when her father honours and loves her mother he honours and loves her as well. And if he doesn't honour and love her mother how can he honour and love her. That is what your daughters will ask themselves.

[Catherine_3]

We will see if he agrees to join me for counselling. That was my only specific request of him. I don't see the point in making other requests of him when I've made those same ones repeatedly in the past and then I'm just "nagging" him or feeling disappointed and frustrated when he doesn't follow through. He sees it as it's my problem so I should come up with solutions. So that's where we are at, a bit of a stalemate.

 

He got up this morning and just cleaned the house for hours. I guess that's maybe his way of making amends or making an effort. He does help out around the house but my issue is that I'd like to hire someone to clean for us and he refuses because he figures we can save money doing it ourselves, but then I end up doing most of it. So that's been a major issue for me. I know cleaning sounds petty but really we are talking about my spare time and energy - what little of it I have left over after everything else I have on my plate. And my time and energy are important to me.

 

So I guess I'll have to see how this plays out.

 

He is fine with the separate account now. He agrees that I've been kind of disadvantaged so far financially, in terms of his wishes taking higher priority, and he feels bad about that and wants to fix it going forward.

[Catherine_3]

In terms of the stay at home mom thing, he says he finds the issue offensive because he continues to make major sacrifices for the family. He says he would rather be back in his country but that he's given up on that for the family. So given that he's made that sacrifice without complaining, he feels I'm being unreasonable when I talk about wanting to stay home. He sees it as everyone sacrificing for the family and we shouldn't complain.

 

He never shared that perspective with me. I don't accept it but at least we are taking.

[mhowe]

Did you meet him in his country? I thought he was getting his PhD in your country when you were freshly married?

[petite]

Good, so you talked it out about the account?

 

I'll say this though, my husband also wasn't really into hiring someone else to clean the house when we "could" do it. However he was also traveling a lot for work and I was working 60+ hours a week and it was too much for me to just keep everything the way we like it, plus we had a dog at that time that needed exercise once we were home.

 

We discussed it and he realized that since he was away often at that point and we have a rather large house I did need the help. We are both pretty hands on and since neither one of us had cleaning ladies growing up we always thought it was just a massive luxury, plus we didn't want a stranger in our house. But being busy professionals with many hobbies something had to give. We could spend our weekends having fun and enjoying life or cleaning our house.

 

Now...I don't think we would ever get rid of her lol. She is a very nice lady, takes care of basic laundry and ironing (just stuff I leave in a particularly basket for her), does regular cleaning of the house. We don't have her cooking or anything like that.

 

We also hired a landscaper because hey I'd rather spend the money employing someone than having my husband taking care of the yard and flowers etc. I don't have a green thumb and am hopeless when it comes to planting and doing yard work, I just hate it so I don't even want to think about doing it.

 

 

Internally I debated a lot with myself because I felt bad for wanting/needing the help and thought it would be something we're wasting money on, like we shouldn't it isn't right, but actually two people on ENA helped me realize that 1) we were employing people thus they are able to earn a living 2) busy professionals get burned out unless they have help. There just aren't enough hours in the day when you have a full time job to take care of the yard, house, kids, meals etc. I've come to realize that everyone needs help. Now we don't feel bad about having a cleaning lady, she has a salary and is able to support her family, we have the help we need and most importantly FREE TIME for each other, our hobbies for family and friends.

 

I definitely think you should discuss this further with him, and explain that in the end it all does fall on your shoulders and you want to spend that time as a family enjoying each other, enjoying your girls!

 

 

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[petite]

I thought you guys met in your country? If his home country is so dangerous why would he even want to go back? I get nostalgia...but if it isn't safe?

 

 

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[Catherine_3]

Yes we met here.

 

When I accepted my new job offer, it was on the condition that we would get help. But it's still the same issue - it shouldn't come down to that. I should have insisted on help all these years

[mhowe]

I am sooooo confused!

 

How is he sacrificing living in his country if he chose to marry you and have a family here?

And I thought your MIL lived in and helps with childcare and housecleaning?

[petite]

I know you don't want to argue (no one does) but honestly I think you should just tell him you will be interviewing cleaning ladies, he can be a part of that or not. But has no say in it because you do majority of the cleaning, if not everything and you are just one person.

 

Don't budge on that, don't dwell on shoulda coulda woulda because that won't help. Think about going forward and don't budge.

 

Trust me when I say you will feel so much weight just going off your shoulders when you don't have to do some of the most basic stuff. I didn't get it until I experienced that relief of not having to dust, or clean the bathtub or toilet. All these things add up to time. Valuable time.

 

 

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[lavenderdove]

>>I kind of feel robbed of the freedom to make the choice for myself.

 

Yes, but there is the reality that SOMEBODY must pick up the tab while you're off doing exactly what you want to do. There are two sides to this. And unfortunately if your goal and heart's desire is to be a stay at home mother, somebody has to earn the money and bear the financial responsibility to allow you to do that.

 

You may not see it, but this is like me saying, I'd like to stay at home and paint and do volunteer work and read books and quit my job. But SOMEBODY has to pick up the mortgage, pay for food, pay for insurance, bear the adult responsibility of supporting me while I'm doing my own thing.

 

So he is not wrong for not wanting to support you 100% while you get to have fun and enjoy your kiddies. He may want to enjoy the kiddies just as much, and why should it be you that does it instead of him, and him that has to support you 100% like you are a child rather than an able bodied adult?

 

So there are many sides to this story, and it's not that simple. Your desire to stay home requires him to assume all the responsibility for you and your family which is throwing a huge burden on his shoulders. In the modern world, things have gotten so expensive that it is a big sacrifice to have only one working parent. Some men are OK with making those sacrifices and bearing that extra burden, and some are not.

 

So you need to really fight the tendency to think you are right and he is wrong in the pursuit of what you perceive as a noble right of motherhood. Sadly, it just isn't. 'Stay at home Mom's' in a leisure world with modern conveniences really is only a product of the 1950's-60's was cheap relative to income and it was affordable. And prior to that, stay at home Mom's had hard physical labor and spent the majority of their days cooking, cleaning and without all the modern conveniences, and cooking from scratch and handwashing clothes etc. So staying home was WORK WORK WORK and not sitting around watching TV with your children while the microwave cooked hotdogs and the dishwasher did the dishes and the washing machine washed your clothes.

 

My own mother told me she basically raised her younger brothers because there was so much work her mother had to do from chopping wood for the fire to catching, buthering, and plucking the chickens for dinner, and scrubbing the clothes on a washboard and ironing every one of them and scouring the floors on her knees with a brush, baking bread from scratch every day, tending the garden and making every bit of food from scratch etc etc etc. People do not realize how HARD life was for women/wives/mothers before modern conveniences so 'staying home with the kids' was far far different until modern conveniences kicked in. Women up until recently spent so much time on the extensive chores required to feed a family and care for a home, that they spend as little time with their children as women working out of the house do today. Doing everything without modern machines and store bought food meant a solid 8-12 hours of work where they weren't focusing on the children, but on those other tasks. Older children usually ended up taking care of the younger ones, or in-laws/extended families did it.

 

So you are not in a position where your husband is somehow punishing you and depriving you of things that most other women have/had. The percentage of women who stay home full time in the modern world is small. Right now in the U.S. that percentage is only about 14% or one out of 7 women. So 6 out of 7 DON'T stay home with their kids and do have to work. So you want to be the exception to the rule now and somehow feel entitled to it when frankly it isn't a particularly realistic desire for most people due to financial realities.

 

I know many women who stay home and basically lounge around while their kids go to school and spend their time playing or on DVDs or video games etc. And many mothers who are good mothers, but they are basically mostly PLAYING with their kids all day going to McDonalds and play dates and painting and all that other good leisure stuff. So you have to recognize that what you are wanting when you become a 'stay at home Mom' is that your are basically consigning your husband to bear the financial burden, while you get the lighter load by far and get lots of leisure time with your kids. Raising kids is hard yes, but nothing compared to what it used to be, and your husband still has to raise them when he is home with them and not working, so he has a 'double' job to your one if you stay home.

 

So you need to switch your mindset a bit to see how he perceives this. It is not a God given right to stay home and play with your kids in an expensive and difficult world financially. It is something that you must NEGOTIATE with your husband, and he has to agree with you because by default he WILL be bearing double weight financially if you do quit and stay home. You are far more likely to get his agreement if you work out a plan that finds ways to for you to spend SOME time home with the kids (half time) while still bringing in income and not throwing all the burden on him financially. Perhaps you could work the hours while the kids are in school (6 hours a day) and be off when they're home.

 

Some women are LUCKY to stay home because their husbands are very successful and make lots of money, or their husbands are happy to bear the financial worry and burden and don't mind it. But they shouldn't HAVE to do it just because you want to stay home and become dependent on him to carry you financially.

 

The things he says to you when you bring it up show he is very worried about that financial burden, especially if he has gone thru a period of unemployment and is terrified at the idea of losing his job and then having no income at all. So you need to be reasonable with him, and perhaps acknowledge that you married a man who just isn't comfortable with that full burden and it scares him, and perhaps if that is what you wanted, that particular lifestyle, you should not have married him because he was quite clear on how he viewed it, and now you are trying to change the game.

 

So your best bet is to try to negotiate with him, and to find a way to still earn income while spending more time at home. He might be fine if you can get a job where you are half time and still pull in decent money or enough money that he isn't scared by it.

 

i would encourage you to attend counseling on your own even if he doesn't go, just to help you put things in perspective and get advice on how to deal with your life and your husband if you are spending a lot of time resenting him because he won't let you quit your job. Most people honestly don't have that luxury, nor do they resent it.

[petite]

I always got the idea that bekka was a very hard working woman she had supported her husband through PhD, job loss, and had basically been bullied to constantly give in to his wishes, from how their family money is spent to whether she works or not.

 

Not all mothers sit around doing nothing or hitting McDonalds or cooking hotdogs in microwaves. A lot of mothers are also turning to healthier meals, cooking with their kids, going to various activities and classes, some might perceive that as "playing" but it isn't like she's sitting on her butt doing nothing while the kids watch TV all day eating food from Mc Donalds.

 

Plus it seems like Bekka's salary contributes to a lot of luxuries, expensive cars and gadgets and things she doesn't even care about yet has no say in because her husband WANTS it.

 

She's also mentioned she could work part time consulting, but it seems like he doesn't support that either.

 

Perhaps her husband should rethink his spending, and stop wasting money on luxuries his wife doesn't want or need, and maybe just maybe think about her for a change. She seems to have always done things his way.

 

 

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