Too ugly; Like women outside my race; Can't find love

[Cimmie]

Excuse me for butting in on this thread, folks, but have been following it with interest.

 

Kyoshiro: WHO gets their crush??? 9 times out of 10 you NEVER get a crush, that's why they are called crushes. They never move past that google-eyed 'I love you from afar' stage.

 

It just strikes me that you are talking about 'women' as if we were this alien species programmed only to respond to looks. I have NEVER been attracted to some received notion of good looks. For one thing, I would assume that guys like that had big egos and were vain.

 

And for another, I would be totally paranoid about some other woman stealing him, I wouldn't have a minute's peace.

 

I just think your views about women are a little, ah, abstract. As another poster said here, it really is all about sexual chemistry. And that has minimally to do with looks, it's all about how you click with someone. I've had the experience of meeting a guy, not thinking anything particularly of him appearance (a little overweight), but on having several conversations over several days, asking myself 'am I attracted to this person?' then ending up thinking his face was the most beautiful thing I'd ever seen. It's called falling in love, and FYI it happens to conventionally unhandsome men, too!

 

I just think you are being a little defensive, nay, defeatist. Not all women are shallow, you know.

 

And about that woman in your office--I bet her husband thinks she is the most beautiful woman in the world, and she probably doesn't give a stuff about her prettier colleague getting all the attention.

[bulletproof]

But don't you see that you just proved your own theories to be false? If looks matter so much, then why is the less attractive girl in your office married with two kids while the other one is not? Obviously, someone finds her very attractive, enough to marry her and share a life. That seems a lot more significant and important than getting attention from a bunch of male coworkers.

 

Your argument and theories are illogical. You're basing them on your experiences alone. This doesn't make it fact. How would it explain the millions of average-looking people who find someone? And so what if attractive people get attention, anyway? What does that have to do with you and your particular situation?

[Kyoshiro Ogari]

Your argument and theories are illogical. You're basing them on your experiences alone. This doesn't make it fact.

If I was basing this on a few years of what I have seen, then I'd agree with you. But I have seen these examples of good looking guys vs. me year after year after year since 4th grade, so we are talking about 24 years. And it hits close to home since my closest friends are the examples. I would think that once I grew up, I'd see differently since there are more things to a human being as they get older. But no.

[bulletproof]

Again you use the argument, "what I have seen". What you have seen is only your experience. Plenty of people have a completely different experience, and it's not because they are better looking than you or anyone else. So how do you explain that?

 

I have a suspicion that you are determined to hold on to these beliefs, despite the fact that they have not worked for you, ever. The whole point of succeeding at anything is to make the most of what you've been given to work with. Just lamenting the unfairness of it all is pointless.

[iwishiknew]

Attractive guys get the girl.

 

Thats correct!

[Pegasus]

If I was basing this on a few years of what I have seen, then I'd agree with you. But I have seen these examples of good looking guys vs. me year after year after year since 4th grade, so we are talking about 24 years. And it hits close to home since my closest friends are the examples. I would think that once I grew up, I'd see differently since there are more things to a human being as they get older. But no.

 

Well, what Kyo says is a fact. I didn't want to join this rant but some responses are pissing me off a bit so I will respond. Let's take my cousin here in the play who is really good looking guy. He never had any problems getting girls, even his wife approached him. She is good looking, funny, smart and really good person. And he? He is a good looking guy; a guy that flunked out of high school because he's too stupid to finish it; a guy that can't keep the job for more than 6 months because he's lazy. When he is at home he just watches tv, never does anything. She is the one that earnes money and brings food to the table. OMG, he even farts when having dinner no matter if other people are around. So, he is "zero" except being good looking and he gets super-great-wife with no sweat at all. That is the only quality he has and seems that is the most important one.

 

So guys, seems all other of us are pretty doomed but not sure if giving up is a choice....I've never been a quitter so I won't quit now also..

[Siriana]

She is good looking, funny, smart and really good person. he gets super-great-wife with no sweat at all.

 

 

Hm....are you shure? She sounds stupid to me!

 

 

P.s. I'll never forget when Wilhelm was complaining about how he's bad looking (if I recall that was under his nick Kevin T) ( I hope my data and memories are correct) and he finally posted a pic. I wanted to reach with my hand thrugh the comp screen to bang with his head on a keyboard.

The guy was normal looking and definitely not unattractive. If he approached me somewhere I definitely wouldn't reject him because of his looks!

 

Or once a member (I can't remember his name right now - I think it's Shrek or Hulk something.....) was saying how he is shy and he doesn't look good.

And he posted a pic...and damn...he was one of the best looking guys I've seen on this forum.

 

Oh, and my bf is not gorgeous, he's just an average, awfully hairy on his body but bald guy. lol

But the way he treats me - it's amazing.

And he approached me in a pub with no worries about him being not gorgeous enough or something like that....he approached with an attitude hey, you deserve me and probably i deserve you....

[CrazyKing]

I guess all that this thread should be about is - If you think that you're a looser, you'll be a looser - even awfully looking people get what they want when they're not looking at themselves as some kind of crap...

[galaxy71]

I'm sorry, but I refuse to provide you with the pity and symphathy that you want. None of your posts indicate any willingness to take responsiblity for the situation that you are in. Instead of looking for advice on how to improve yourself, you are trying to portray yourself as a victim of bad luck and poor genetics. You are trying to frame your problem as a dilemma between unattractive guys and attractive guys. Since women flock to attractive guys, unattractive guys are faced with a difficult life of loneliness and frustration. It's all about how the world hates you because of your looks. What you don't realize is that your attitude is the problem.

 

You have no confidence in yourself. If you did have confidence in yourself, you would be working your butt off trying to improve your attractiveness to women. There are a lot of guys who are like you. Instead of wallowing in self-pity, they are working out and developing their flirting skills so that women become naturally attracted to them. You are content being a victim persecuted by society's standards, instead of being a man who is proactive in dealing with any problems he encounters.

 

This dichotomy between attractive guys and unattractive guys is false. Unattractive guys/average-looking guys meet and date women all the time. Last night, I attended a church social. There were some photos in the room showing some average-looking men with average-looking women. Even though, the people in the photos were average, they were dating and getting married. Some of you guys make it sound like that you have to be Brad Pitt or George Clooney to get a date.

 

There is more to attraction than just looks. A person's personality, charm, confidence, and sense of humor plays a role in attraction. If looks were the only thing that mattered, most people would never reproduce since most people are average. That's why they call it "average". Go outside and you see plenty of average or unattractive guys with wives and girlfriends all the time.

[Kyoshiro Ogari]

I'm sorry, but I refuse to provide you with the pity and symphathy that you want.

Find it where I asked for violins and change in a rattling tin cup.

 

None of your posts indicate any willingness to take responsiblity for the situation that you are in. Instead of looking for advice on how to improve yourself, you are trying to portray yourself as a victim of bad luck and poor genetics. You are trying to frame your problem as a dilemma between unattractive guys and attractive guys. Since women flock to attractive guys, unattractive guys are faced with a difficult life of loneliness and frustration. It's all about how the world hates you because of your looks. What you don't realize is that your attitude is the problem.

So how is my attitude the problem? I would like to know what I do to repell these women? You can't tell me what I do because you don't know me or what I do. Am I shy? Yes, very. But I no longer look at my shoelaces when I walk. I no longer slouch or slump. I smile, with no return I might add. And, this thread was created three years ago. Since then, I've done a lot to change a demeanor that was never standoffish to begin with. And despite what I post HERE, I don't come off as a crybaby looking for a spotlight on him. And I don't approach women like a whining kid wanting to suck on her nipple.

 

You have no confidence in yourself. If you did have confidence in yourself, you would be working your butt off trying to improve your attractiveness to women. There are a lot of guys who are like you. Instead of wallowing in self-pity, they are working out and developing their flirting skills so that women become naturally attracted to them. You are content being a victim persecuted by society's standards, instead of being a man who is proactive in dealing with any problems he encounters.

Then perhaps plastic surgery should do. Perhaps being shy and seeing what I have seen with good looking guys vs. unattractive guys which makes me even LESS confident. Not everybody will be an automatic success in getting the women they want if they try. Some of us "don't have it like that." We are missing that certain something. I am sure if I was hit on, or called attractive, I'd have confidence. It's like a role playing game. You walk around, get experience points by slaying monsters or solving riddles (talking to women...who are not monsters, I just needed that analogy...and no, I am not a video game geek. Not since 1998. ) and you enhance your character (confidence) accordingly. I've talked to women. I can remember all of the times I begin to show the SLIGHTEST interest, so harmless and subtle even a caveman can figure it out, and then things change.

 

Two perfect examples. I was a customer service representative. I was talking business with a client, trying to help her with a dilemma. We talked for about a half hour on the phone before I solved the problem. She calls back and speaks to one of my co-workers and asks about me. My co-worker tells me this and said that she wanted to meet me. She said that I had a sexy voice. Anyway, the girl and I flirted over the phone during work ours and a week later, since she had to meet with my manager about a project they were doing, she dropped by. You should've seen the look on her face when she saw me. Amazingly, we talked once more after that, and that was because my manager was out for the day and I took over his duties. No more flirting or chit chatting about other stuff. I got dumped before getting hitched.

 

A few years later, it happened again. This time I was taking care of a female client over the phone and throwing my sense of humor here and there. The next thing, she starts flirting with me. About a week later, she went out of her way to drop by CD she needed prints for. She walked in, asked for me, I said I was him, and her face slightly slumped. She acted as if she was engaging me for the first time. After that, just like the other one, things were different.

 

So great, I have a sexy voice. I can be a phone sex operator. it's such a shame they have to meet me in person. And this is on FIRST GLANCE I was turned down. I am sure if I looked good, something MIGHT'VE developed. But looking as I do, I didn't even get a chance to show them what I could really do to touch their lives.

 

This dichotomy between attractive guys and unattractive guys is false. Unattractive guys/average-looking guys meet and date women all the time. Last night, I attended a church social. There were some photos in the room showing some average-looking men with average-looking women. Even though, the people in the photos were average, they were dating and getting married. Some of you guys make it sound like that you have to be Brad Pitt or George Clooney to get a date.

You don't have to be the cast of Oceans11-13 to get a date, but I'd be damned if they get turned down for a date. The effort they would have to put in vs. us is minimal. Their first impression can be the snap of a finger. We would have to answer that question, "Why would you date us when you know you can do better?"

 

There is more to attraction than just looks. A person's personality, charm, confidence, and sense of humor plays a role in attraction.

here is what people tell me ALL the time: I have personality. I am personable. I am charming, engaging, sweet, sincere, kind, funny, hilarious, ect. So then there must be some other reason why I attract friends and not GIRLfriends. I refer back to those qualities I listed and see that handsome is not among them.

 

And I didn't mean to come off like a smart*** responding to your post, it's just that your assumption about me the person vs. me the poster is off.

[bulletproof]

You still have not answered the question, though, despite prolific posts arguing other people point by point- how is that there are average-looking, and "unnattractive" people dating and getting married all the time?

 

You're still using illogical arguments and examples. You have no idea why the two women you met in person after speaking to them on the phone weren't interested. Even making the jump and saying you can read minds and you know that they weren't necessarily attracted to you, then that does not automatically mean that you yourself are inherently unattractive.

 

My roommate is now dating online. She has gone on so many dates, and while she might be very excited after e-mailing and speaking to potential dates on the phone, she has not met one guy in person who she is remotely attracted to. And they were all reasonably attractive guys. She just felt nothing. There are so many nuances to how someone looks and behaves in person.

 

You can't tell me that you can't think of one person, celebrity or real-life, who is not considered good-looking but just has that something that makes him interesting, sexy, attractive. We all know people like this. Why can't you work on becoming that, and forget about blaming it all on your alleged bad looks?

[Siriana]

You still have not answered the question, though, despite prolific posts arguing other people point by point- how is that there are average-looking, and "unnattractive" people dating and getting married all the time?

 

 

I questioned the very same thing in my PM Kioshiro.....

[Pegasus]

I questioned the very same thing in my PM Kioshiro.....

 

I question myself the very same thing almost every day - how do they do it and I can't?!? I guess I'm below average. I hope that plastic surgery will help me

[Siriana]

I know what could help you...but if i say it i will get banned probably...;-)image removed

[Pegasus]

I know what could help you...but if i say it i will get banned probably...;-)image removed

 

Hm...bad day?

[Leonhart]

Kyo, I have a question for you:

 

Is there a specific type of woman that you find attractive, or are you open to dating most women you meet?

 

What I'm asking is, are you overly picky or selective with women? What percentage - rough estimate - would you consider datable, in your age range, of women?

 

I'm not saying you're being overly selective or 'too picky' (if there ever was such a thing), but I must ask since I agree that even average - and for that matter, well-below average - looking people find love and happiness.

 

Are you setting your sights high? (Just asking. I am in NO WAY insinuating that you must stop doing so. I just want to know.) Personally, I think you should pursue those who you find attractive, whether they be 9s or 10s. Don't settle and don't let others tell you that you have to. For everyone's curiosity, I myself, am very picky. (Well, not overtly, but I do expect an attractive mate, to say the least.) And I will not change that for anyone, nor should you... if that is the case. I'm just wondering, since you seem to feel that getting the type of girl you want is beyond your grasp (even if she may not be), and this struck me as odd.

 

I'd much rather be single and unhappy than stuck in an unhappy marriage. It's better to be single and wish to be married than it is to be married and wish to be single. Trust me.

[Jayar]

I have to tell a story...

 

I have this friend. He is a GREAT friend. I love him, but he's really not at all attractive. Anyway, he had high standards (which even I thought were too high) but now, in his early 30's, he has finally found the girl of his dreams. And she adores him. And she's EASILY got to be one of the prettiest girls I know. So go figure!

 

My point? Don't settle. You don't have to. Just recognize that if you don't, it might take you longer to find "The One" than if you did settle, obviously.

 

As for your looks, do what you can with what you have. Yes appearance is important. Recognize and embrace this fact. Believe me, we ladies don't walk around in high heels and tight jeans, wearing uncomfortable bras, with $50+ worth of manicure and pedicure and $300+ hair styles because we have nothing better to spend our money on. So yes, looks are important.

 

But if you eat right, take care of your skin, ensure your cleanliness is up to par, work out, and make sure your hair is of a style that suits YOU, then you'd be hard pressed to be downright UGLY. You're a human, not a warthog, afterall. Women aren't generally turned off so much by UNATTRACTIVENESS (as compared to, say, Johnny Depp) as we are turned of by lack of basic cleanliness. Regardless of your actual appearance, bad skin, bad smell, and distinctly fat or distinctly skinny body shapes are pretty universal turnoffs for men and women alike, accross the board. This boils down more to biology than anything else. But if you take care of yourself you'd be surprised with who you might attract.

[Leonhart]

I'll never forget when Wilhelm was complaining about how he's bad looking (if I recall that was under his nick Kevin T) ( I hope my data and memories are correct) and he finally posted a pic. I wanted to reach with my hand thrugh the comp screen to bang with his head on a keyboard.

The guy was normal looking and definitely not unattractive. If he approached me somewhere I definitely wouldn't reject him because of his looks!

 

Oh, um, thank you.

[Jayar]

Oh, um, thank you.

 

Ha! Now I wanna see a pic of Wilhelm.

[Leonhart]

After I see YOUR pic...

 

Ahh, you're not missing much anyway. I've yet to see a photograph of me that looks good.

[Leonhart]

You know what I find interesting, Kyo, is that I too get accused all of sorts of things based on my posts, which have absolutely NO bearance on who I am as a person or who I am in person. It's amazing how people think they've got me so figured out, when in fact, they couldn't be farther from the truth!

 

I could be a forty-five year old woman making these posts, for anyone knows.

 

Anyway, I can relate to so many of your posts. People say, 'It's not looks, it's not looks...' whatever. Often times, looks are a huge factor... online dating sites confirm this, yours (and mine) real life experience CONFIRM this... (which, oddly, we're NOT supposed to go by? Huh?!! If we can't trust our OWN experience, whose CAN we trust?! And from such logical, intelligent people, I'd expect a better argument than that! Why should we trust what others say? Just because THEY say so? What insolence!) and heck, even attractive posters here admit to having no problem getting dates because they're so good looking! (Anyone who doubts me, I'll provide a link for, if you ask...) It's sad, it's unfair and it's tough luck for us. But it's the truth.

 

People tell me not to be negative... but I'm simply being truthful. Should I stop being honest and start pretending like everything is fine? Hmph. For a group of logical, scientific, intellectuals, that sounds like pretty shifty logic and 'magical' thinking, if I've ever heard it!

 

I'm not trying to make you feel worse, Kyo. Not in the slightest. But I am saying that I can relate to you on so many levels and I do understand where you are coming from. It is an emotionally crippling experience to be in this situation... and those who have never been in these shoes should not assume things.

[galaxy71]

Find it where I asked for violins and change in a rattling tin cup.

 

It's in the first part of the title of the thread. You used "Too ugly" in the first part of the thread. Nobody would trash their own self that hard if they were confident and believed in themselves. Most of your posts are complaints about how women overlook you because of your looks. Instead of looking for ideas on how to improve your attractiveness to women, you are just lamenting the tough life you have to endure because of your looks. Unless you are disfigured or suffer from your disability, I doubt that you are ugly. By taking care of your appearance, you will be at least average.

 

So how is my attitude the problem? I would like to know what I do to repell these women? You can't tell me what I do because you don't know me or what I do. Am I shy? Yes, very. But I no longer look at my shoelaces when I walk. I no longer slouch or slump. I smile, with no return I might add. And, this thread was created three years ago. Since then, I've done a lot to change a demeanor that was never standoffish to begin with. And despite what I post HERE, I don't come off as a crybaby looking for a spotlight on him. And I don't approach women like a whining kid wanting to suck on her nipple.

 

In your second sentence, you are again closing yourself off to any potential advice that has been given to you. That's the problem. In this thread or the bad boy thread, I wonder whether you are interested in trying the advice that has been given to you in this thread. You mention all these things that you have done to improve yourself in the past few years. Yet you never talk about these things in your previous posts.

 

Then perhaps plastic surgery should do. Perhaps being shy and seeing what I have seen with good looking guys vs. unattractive guys which makes me even LESS confident. Not everybody will be an automatic success in getting the women they want if they try. Some of us "don't have it like that." We are missing that certain something. I am sure if I was hit on, or called attractive, I'd have confidence. It's like a role playing game. You walk around, get experience points by slaying monsters or solving riddles (talking to women...who are not monsters, I just needed that analogy...and no, I am not a video game geek. Not since 1998. ) and you enhance your character (confidence) accordingly. I've talked to women. I can remember all of the times I begin to show the SLIGHTEST interest, so harmless and subtle even a caveman can figure it out, and then things change.

 

Plastic surgery is not neccesary. Plain people date and marry all the time. Your task is too find out how men attract women. As I mentioned in my other post, the best way to find how men attract women is by going to guys who are successful with women. You seem to assume that you are getting rejected because of looks because you do everything right body language wise, and flirting wise. But how do you know that you are doing things correctly if you have no standard to evaluate your interactions with women? By consulting guys who are successful with women, you will be made aware of your blind spots through the help of a disinterested, neutral party.

 

The dating advice that is given by guys who are successful with women is vastly different from the advice given by everybody else. Most dating advice tell guys like you to be confident and to go to places that have women. Guys who are successful with women will tell you how to be confident and how to interact with women in ways that will make them attracted to you. They will tell you how to walk and talk around women. Most mainstream dating advice talk about luck and playing the numbers game. Guys who are successful with women will tell you how to attract women through study, skill and lots of practice. They will also tell you how to avoid the friendzone by going for a kiss.

 

Trust the masters. They know what they are talking about These guys have tested their knowledge and techniques on real women. Guys like you have achieved some success by modeling themselves after the masters. On the other hand, there are a lot of people in this website and others who give out advice that they have never tried themselves.

 

So great, I have a sexy voice. I can be a phone sex operator. it's such a shame they have to meet me in person. And this is on FIRST GLANCE I was turned down. I am sure if I looked good, something MIGHT'VE developed. But looking as I do, I didn't even get a chance to show them what I could really do to touch their lives.

 

You sparked attraction but you were unable to maintain it. That's what happened in those two examples. Through flirting, and humor, you can attract a women. It's just that you were unable to keep the flame going. I hoped that you continued the flirting after you met those two women in person. If you don't continue to stimulate her emotions, she will lost interest. Flirting and humor isn't just being playful and funny. Instead, flirting and humor are powerful ways of conveying your confidence. All the flirting in the world will do you no good if you do not have the body language to back it up

 

You don't have to be the cast of Oceans11-13 to get a date, but I'd be damned if they get turned down for a date. The effort they would have to put in vs. us is minimal. Their first impression can be the snap of a finger. We would have to answer that question, "Why would you date us when you know you can do better?"

 

So rich, handsome, high status, celebrity men have an easier time getting dates than you. What's the big deal about that? Most guys don't have the charm and the looks of Brad Pitt and George Clooney, yet a lot of them are dating and in relationships. Study them. Don't worry about comparing yourself to some celebrity that you have never interacted with in your life.

 

here is what people tell me ALL the time: I have personality. I am personable. I am charming, engaging, sweet, sincere, kind, funny, hilarious, ect. So then there must be some other reason why I attract friends and not GIRLfriends. I refer back to those qualities I listed and see that handsome is not among them.

 

There is a reason for your situation. You need to learn how to attract women. Having personality and being charming is great. But you need to know how to convey those attributes in a way that will attract women. There is a difference between being interesting and being attractive.

[Leonhart]

While that is all mostly good and sensible advice, what if he does all of that and still cannot get women? What would you tell him then?

 

I have learned how to do everything right and still cannot get women attracted to me. Sometimes, there comes a time when you cannot get women, regardless of what you do, due to your appearance.

 

In that respect, the most common - yet ridiculous - thing that Kyo or guys like us will hear would be to give someone you are not attracted to a shot and settle. Bad advice generally, but it works if you're really desperate, I'd say.

[Siriana]

I think Galaxy gave great advice.

[Kyoshiro Ogari]

There is a reason for your situation. You need to learn how to attract women. Having personality and being charming is great. But you need to know how to convey those attributes in a way that will attract women. There is a difference between being interesting and being attractive.

Galaxy did give great advice and summed it up with this last sentence, which is my dilemma.

 

If I was not blessed with being physically attractive despite what I have tried, what else can I do? Unfortunately, I cannot watch my friends talk to women with an unbiased thought in my head because they are good looking. I need to find a less than attractive guy and see how he does it. How do the average guys get women? I don't know. Some could be circumstance. Some could be years of courting.

 

To reverse a situation, good looking guys, for the most part, attract with their looks and seem interesting. Unattractive guys do not look interesting, and have to work at being interesting. The two phone incidences I had were discouraging because both talked to me without seeing me and were into me. Then they saw me and those interesting things about me meant nothing, otherwise I would not have gotten cold shoulders from both. I know that's only TWO women, but it's not like it happened on Tuesday then on Thursday. It happened about 3 years apart.

 

I'm all for trying new things since everything else has led me here so far.