Relationships With Severely Avoidant People

[Silverbirch]

Thank you again for your prompt, supportive an sensible post. I know right now I need to be working on and building myself up. There's only one person I know, a fantastic girl I was working with last year who I'm still in contact with who I've spoken with about what happened last year with the bullying. I didn't even tell David. I felt that if I went public about what happened with this woman, it would mean that she would know that she had an effect on me. When I was in the team leader role, I had to report her for not only doing the wrong thing, but refusing to follow process and complete the required documentation to report the incident - it was a legally notifiable and sackable offence. Apparently she already had a strike against her with management, and it's 3 strikes and your out. So even though management knew what she was like, she came back to work and set out on a campaign to discredit my competence. She did and said things aimed at humiliating me in public in the workplace. In more recent times, she has done that to a new manager who commenced official proceedings against her and others have also come forward - apparently, the bullying got a lot worse. From the things she said about me to other people, mostly people didn't listen, but I know that at least in one case, some mud did stick and may always be stuck, but I'm so glad to hear that she is being dealt with. I didn't think a lot about how my confidence at work was affected by that and feeling that people were seeing me as incompetent because of things she did and said. It appears that she even went to my mail pigeonhole in the office and beside my name and in front of my title "Team Leader" wrote the word "Pretend" - "Pretend Team Leader".

 

Yesterday, I was offered a position within the organisation by the new manager who she also harrassed and bullied. I will do some casual/temp work for them for a while and see how it goes.

[mhowe]

I think this is something you could share w/ David -- and that he would be proud of how you handled it.

[Silverbirch]

Thanks MHowe, I might tell him.

[mhowe]

It would show him that you are not only willing, but capable of standing up for yourself.

 

Not that he needs examples, but it will reinforce the mindset that you are strong and independent....w/ momentary lapses into insecurity....

[Silverbirch]

Okay, I will tell him. Thanks.

[journeynow]

Hi Silverbirch,

 

My take on the marriage discussion is that it was a miscommunication. He said you weren't listening to him, (sounds like he was annoyed?) but in saying THAT it seems like he hadn't really listened to what you had said, but had interpreted it to mean something more. I wasn't there, so I can't really say, but it seems like he over-reacted. You both have insecurities based on your past relationships, and they are simply surfacing now, as they will when you get to know someone better. The tricky thing is to not let his insecurities trigger yours, but to observe them for what they are.

 

You two can agree to Never Get Married, and even to never mention the word. But it doesn't hurt to talk about what each of you want from this relationship. Are you two Lovers? Partners? Best Friends With Benefits? Are you both in this For The Moment or might you be shifting to Through-Thick-and-Thin? You don't have to answer that here, of course, but I would think it helpful for each of you to know where you stand and share that with the other. Or you guys could agree that you are both Winging It, and refuse to pin it down with labels, ever. You've been together for about a year. You might have a "yearly review" and talk about it now, perhaps with the intent to not make it an ongoing concern.

[Silverbirch]

Thanks JN, I have had brief discussion with him about this - the status of the "relationship". He also has probs with the term "relationships", but then has told me I am "the One", his best friend and "Girl", and primarily "friend first", but I would say he would like things very much as "winging it". He has said to me though several times that he knows I worry about the relationship with him and that I shouldn't - that he isn't going anywhere and doesn't want to be with anyone else. Right now, I don't ever want to discuss marriage with him again. He did say the other night that in a few weeks we will both feel a lot better as it has been a long winter here with lots of cold and rain and short days which has prevented both of us from being outdoors. It's something both of us, and other people, including my own doctor struggle with each year at the end of winter - and it doesn't even snow where we are, but does close by.

 

I do see how all of this has triggered my insecurities and I don't want to be constantly in and out of pain because of those relationships. I sort of feel at a loss as to how to deal with that. In a way, it will be something always there, the disappointment and hurt even though I am so glad not to be with any of those men any longer. Last night I read a post on ENA written by someone who is currently dealing with a person like my ex who I was "engaged" to and can see what a horrible life that would have been so breaking up with him was the best thiing that could have happened.

 

I mailed you re possible progress with the phone company whereby they claim to be ringing me back to discuss a possible financial settlement so fingers crossed. I know I have lots of things in my life like this right now which are my responsibility to sort out, and I think that slowly I am working through a lot of this. Thanks again.

[Realitynut]

Hi Sweeties...I agree with JN...I think you both are insecure. He's afraid you might run off and leave him cuz he's so damn 'moody'....doesn't like the idea of marriage...much less the WORD relationship! Scares the heck out of him! I think he wants you to know you can trust him and that he will never leave....but he's not so sure about YOU.....and here you are not so sure about HIM running off with some rich skank! You are BOTH afraid...and Both insecure....just verbalize things differently!

Hell...I'm the Queen of insecurities....and laughed when I read your posts....cuz I could see it, when you couldn't, cuz you are living it....I knew you were gonna get called on it S.B.....lol....about him 'pushing you away'.....

My feelings are: he's kinda saying it to test you, for you to say...I'm not going anywhere either big guy...I'm gonna stick with you thru thick or thin...crabass or loving...

 

All insecure people want are reassurances that they are loved....and not gonna be left. You both want that. It may seem like he's trying to push you away...but he would die if you left him....he'd be by your side so damn fast (and probably proposing) it would make your head spin!!!!!!!

 

I know...cuz I am one of those insecure people!

 

Love ya...just hang on tight, let him know you arent leaving...but don't let him get under your skin either. We are both thin-skinned...lol

[Silverbirch]

LOL and Hugs Carla,

I been wondering where the hell you have been. Hope things are going well for you and that you mail me with all the juicey detalis.

 

Nah, he is NEVER going to propose and I don't care about that. Well, there have been a couple of times that have caught me off guard where he has actually looked teary saying that he doesn't know if I'm going to be able to handle him long-term, that I'm going to get tired of him. He knows I'M insecure, but I don't know whether it is a facade or what it is with him. A couple of weeks back when things were going very well - it was his birthday and I had gone to a lot of trouble to buy him some specialty books - some which you could never find in a store here. Got 2 of them freighted from overseas and he was just tickled pink. His father was there as we were going to lunch together for his birthday, and he said (I think he intentionally wove it into conversation with this father while I was there). "Relationships are all very nice and well, but I don't NEED them. I can live without them." That was hurtful to me. I did call him out on it some time later, telling him that we are different - he doesn't need anyone and relationships aren't important to him, and reminded him what he had said (BTW, he HAS said that and similar things before). He looked down at the time and said something to the effect that a lot of the things he says like that are "self-protective" that he doesn't really feel that way at all. He has also said that he thinks I could have lots of BF's if I wanted to and he's waiting for me to get spectacles (I have them but need new ones and hate wearing them) because he says that I will realise he is not as handsome as I seem to think he is!! He also said recently that" "No matter what happens, I hope we will always be friends because I won't be able to handle it if I can't see you." I thought he was going to start crying, but as usual, he gets a grip quickly and moves the conversation on.

 

Oh God, I just worked 15.5 hours in a 23 hour time span and did around 3.5 hours of travel to and from work in that time. I'm dead tired and just got home and into bed - I keep my laptop by the bed. He rang while I was on the way home asking if I was still coming to his place tomorrow. I was planning to groom and walk some of his smaller ponies and also make a start on the vegetable garden for our "alongside each other" plans. He said he is hoping I am and that we might be able to go somewhere nice for lunch. I used to get really happy and excited about going to see him for things like that, but just of late, because of his moodiness and frustration related to the rain and weather holding him back from work, I know it's likely he's going to be in a poop when I get there and makes me think I could be at home tending to my own lot. He's had a big day with work today too and got his car bogged in mud but luckily someone was able to help him with a tow. About a fortnight ago, I got to his place and he was cursing God for the rain. Anyway, I'm out the back and called him. There was a beautiful rainbow over the back paddock that was so cool. He didn't think it was cool at all so I just went for walk with the pony and got some bomb-proofing done - getting the ponies used to some more things like cars by the road.

 

Oh and he rings me yesterday and just works into the conversation how there are things we need to be doing so that in 3 years time we can hopefully start a semi-retirement together in the country. . . .

[Silverbirch]

I've been thinking about this thread - the bigger picture - and at least in my/our case - I think it's pretty obvious, that it's been said, we are both trying to avoid pain in our own ways - so I suppose I am an avoidant as well. I've just never really thought of myself that way before. The idea of even deciding to marry scares the hell out of me - it means I can be used, betrayed and tossed to the curb.

When he was married, he says he felt like he had a "ball and chain around his leg the whole time." He hates the idea of marriage. I'm scared of much more - including marriage. I suppose I did feel trapped in my marriage, but I think for different reasons. I lost control of lots of things I would rather not have and I suppose he did too. D is very upfront in blaming himself for his marriage not working. He says it was because he is a selfish person who isn't suited to marriage. He especially hated the whole suburban thing, and he felt that his wife and the financial constraints of marriage stifled him from developing as a person. We both married way too young.

[Silverbirch]

It happened last night. We were having out good night call, and he mentioned that he had a job on close to where I live. I said it was a pity that I was working as he could have dropped by for a cup of tea. He just let loose on me telling me I was playing mind games with him, and said that even if he does have jobs on close by to where I live, that wouldn't necessarily mean that he would have the time to drop by to see me. Nothing I said seemed to matter and he told me that I might be happier with somebody else. Hearing him say that, and so easily too was hurtful. I told him that it did sound very easy for him to say that and he slowed down a bit in his attack for a while. At hearing those words, I felt it was time to walk away with some dignity intact. No point in being with someone who obviously doesn't want to be with me. Somewhere amongst it all, I was crying and when he began berating me for that, I told him that most people do cry at some point, I'm one of those people, he is not, and that just because he doesn't ever cry, he shouldn't be so hard-nosed towards people who do. You could have knocked me over with a feather because he blurted out that he does cry - just not in front of anyone. He said he is hard-nosed because life has taught him to be that way to protect himself. It was quite an argument and I felt quite distressed. It got to a point where I couldn't speak and he wanted to know why. I told him that I really didn't know what to say and nothing I said seemed to matter anyway. My brain just felt fried and I felt numb at the end of it. Then he did a turnaround and said he loves me and that he wants to be with me, that he isn't giing anywhere. He sent me a text afterwards saying similar and one this morning.

 

I have felt very sad all day. I've got things in my life - the health issues have come back in quite a big way (he didn't know that or at least the extent) and I'm working long hours as I'm making plans to do the very best I can in providing for my future. I just don't feel up for this right now and know that people can't give me answers. I just feel very fragile right now.

 

I had made plans to see him tomorrow and will go through with it and see how things go, but I'm not feeling confident and I feel worn down and that I'm not going to be able to cope with verbal attacks like that if they continue. I felt so unloved when he said so easily that I might be happier with somebody else and was ready to walk at that point. I really have no idea where this is going right now - maybe nowhere. I have a full week ahead of me with work and likely won't get to see him for a while after tomorrow which is probably just as well because I'm feeling very pulled down by the most recent outburst. I'm ready for a life as the crazy old cat lady if that is what is meant to be for me.

[journeynow]

HUGS ((((( Silverbirch )))))

[Silverbirch]

Thanks JN. Not to be making excuses for him, but he rang tonight and seems he earned good money today and a client who owed him money paid up today. His earnings were very low this week and he had been stressed about that. Still, his outburst was unfair and it has also occurred to me to me from reading other posts at ENA that his accusation of me game-playing was in fact a projection of what he is trying to do himself. Maybe he is self-sabotaging and also trying to instigate a break-up himself. He's also been making jokes about me seeing my "other boyfriends" - I worked 6 days of long hours this week and the last time I visited him, it was for a few hours and I didn't stay the night, and that he would have liked me to - but added how he understood and wouldn't try and make me feel bad about it. He seriously needs to grow up.

[Ms Darcy]

God girl, none of this is healthy. I would not wish this treatment on an enemy.

[Silverbirch]

No I wouldn't either Mrs Darcy. I feel like I've been run over by a bus this morning since waking. I had organised to see him today. If anything like this happens today, I will be ending the relationship.

[Ms Darcy]

No I wouldn't either Mrs Darcy. I feel like I've been run over by a bus this morning since waking. I had organised to see him today. If anything like this happens today, I will be ending the relationship.

 

Keep your eyes open and stay strong in whatever decision you make.

[Batya33]

From what I have read in your posts and how obvious it is that you have so much to offer, even if you decide to end it with him there will be no result that combines adorable felines with a single Silverbirch, crazy or not. Perhaps adorable felines that cuddle even more fiercely with you when your special person -the man who deserves to be with you and all you have to offer -has to be away from you for some reason. No crazy cat lady situation for you -sorry to break the news to you ;-). Hang in there, whatever you decide.

[Silverbirch]

Thanks Mrs. Darcy and I'm very touched by your words Bataya. I'm struggling to get going today and crying. In all my relationships, I made excuses for bad behaviour and stayed longer than what I should have. At the end of the day, if he genuinely loves me, he won't keep treating my like this. He has made no indication that he wants to change his behaviour and also mumbled something the other night about me being tired and that contributing to his outburst. I KNOW I said and did nothing to provoke that outburst.

 

The sun is out for a change right now. Part of me so wants to stay at my own place to get things done here. I've been working hard to get this place cosy. It's started to look like a place I feel proud to call my own. When you walk inside, it's obvious that I don't have lots of money, but it's cosy and cheerful and neat. When I've been cleaning and re-decorating, I think of those African women with spotless dirt-floor huts - that's how I'm feeling about my place right now, but it's started to get a little untidy again. The ponies have found their way into the backyard through a gate which shouldn't have been open and my 14 year old cat has just brought a trophy rat to the back door.

 

I'm tired of leaving my place and world for men, especially ones who devalue me. Thank God for all my furries and for ENA and a handful of lovely people in my life. I've been trying hard to kick the cigarettes and had been doing okay, but chain-smoking today. I've started reading and trying budhist mindfulness to kick the cigarettes and it had been going okay. I need to be doing it more and learning it more because I know that being in emotional pain like this makes my urge to smoke so much greater. I never had learnt to deal with emotional pain in ways other than picking up a cigarette and I'm going to have to learn and the sooner the better. Thank God I don't drink or gamble.

 

Strangely, I find my mind wandering off to articles and images I found myself online about everyday life in Cuba - away from the cities. I'm intrigued by the resilience and adaptability of some of the people there to their impoverished situations and difficult lives. Fascicnated also by Cuba - the countryside and the culture - reminding myself though not to romanticise life in Cuba, that there is darkness there too for those who have chosen that. Sorry for the rant, but it's helping me hold myself together and not fall downward.

[mhowe]

Sorry about your troubles w/ D.

 

I am not going to encourage you to leave --- or stay -- but maybe adjust your mindset.

 

Yes, he was projecting w/ his "other boyfriends", and was incredibly defensive about "stopping by when in area"....and he was obviously very verbal about it all.

 

You, on the other hand, are internalizing your stress re: your health issues and your future. And being silent about it.

 

So -- two people, grown adults w/ baggage -- under stress. And either striking out or going inward.....

 

New mindset -- don't run to the "I'd rather be alone" place. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water...he loves you, you love him. Work through it -- instead of circling the wagons and preparing (emotionally) for a departure.

[Silverbirch]

Thanks MHowe. I haven't been home long, but had typed a long post which I lost when my connection cut out.

 

Things are smoothed over for the time-being at least. I've learnt more. He asked me to stay and it went well. There was no big fight, there was some discussion, but still a lot on his terms.

 

I have to go out, but hope to post late tonight. I would value your opinions. Thanks for your ongoing support MHowe and everyone.

[mhowe]

Thanks MHowe. I haven't been home long, but had typed a long post which I lost when my connection cut out.

 

Things are smoothed over for the time-being at least. I've learnt more. He asked me to stay and it went well. There was no big fight, there was some discussion, but still a lot on his terms.

 

I have to go out, but hope to post late tonight. I would value your opinions. Thanks for your ongoing support MHowe and everyone.

 

I was just joking w/ someone re: my bf's "avoidant" behavior. She said it was impressive -- I said it was idiotic. And then, jokingly added -- that I had to admire his consistency. Because he does it with most people.

 

And I have found that I can be frustrated, or I can be....me. If he is avoidant, I leave him alone. Completely. And, much like you, we have our own homes, so this is easier than most would think. I just go back about my life. I do not encourage game playing, or a this-for-that mentality. Just let the storm/stress pass -- at this age, changing their mindset or behavior is well nigh impossible.

 

You need to take care of you. And not take his "outbursts" as personally. It is easy to memorize this mantra when dealing w/ this type of personality:

 

It is not about me.

 

Because, it isn't. It is about them. And only you know how much you are willing to put up with --- I have come to realize that in giving him space, and recentering...knowing it isn't about me when he is avoidant...that that is his "go to" reaction....and that when he is with me....he is 100%+ with ME -- that I can allow him his need for protection....

 

PS. And what he is "protecting himself" against -- is being vulnerable. And I have never hurt him. And he knows that. And that scares him too -- and yet, he craves our time together. Yes, a dicotomy...an enimga.

[Silverbirch]

I can so relate to all of that MHowe. Yes, it's good to have our own space to come back to. I think I am gaining a few insights with the dynamics of my relationship with him which have the potential of either creating intimacy or both of us going our own way. I'm hoping it will be the former.

 

 

I went to visit him yesterday. When I arrived, he seemed very glad to see me, very affectionate and warm. I did feel on guard although I was very glad to see him too. He asked me several times if I would stay the night and I did. Overall, it was a enjoyable time although I did become aware of some fairly major aspects of communicating with him. I was able to see how he controls conversation, especially when I disagree with something he has said, specifically yesterday when he made a very negative generalisation about women. I pointed out to him that not all women are as he described, certainly I am not, neither are my friends, and I personally don’t know women who are as he described. He became annoyed at this, saying that it annoyed him that I constantly took those comments as relating to myself and related them to my relationship with him, and that often he was joking. I don’t believe he was joking.

 

Most times I see him, including at the last visit, he makes very disparaging comments about his father who he describes as a “fool” and “weak”. I know that he has been very adversely affected by his father leaving them when D was 13 and made no contact with D for 6 years. His father had left for a woman who it seems manipulated, exploited and discarded D’s father. According to D, his father gave so much of his time and money and I suppose love to this women, her children and grandchildren and none of that was given to his own children. D told me he tries to be as unlike his father as possible.

 

Despite this, the last visit was quite happy for both of us. When I first got there, he started teasing me, calling me his “Fiery little Italian” and telling me that I am emotional, that he knows I worry that he doesn’t love me. I could see that he was trying to turn his outburst around on me, and removing himself from any wrong-doing. I asked him if I was a fiery Italian, what did that make him. He described himself as a “Whingeing POME and grouchy old man”. I told him that I believe he makes incorrect assumptions about comments I have made, that he reads in meanings which are not there. He didn’t say anything for or against this, but I think he listened.

 

During one of the lighter moments, I mentioned to D that we have been seeing each other for around a year now. He smiled very broadly saying he had been thinking about that, and then said: “You’re growing on me . . . you have to remember that with me, it takes time.” Throughout my stay, he told me several times how he will always be there for me and that he loves me.

 

In fairness to him, I would say that his mistrust of women would have to at least come close to my distrust of men, and that my own father had left his family for another woman who he married so his family life has not been completely different to my own. I do also have a fear of being controlled, manipulated and exploited by men – this has in fact, as some of you would know, happened in my life, and I blame myself for allowing that to happen. I feel like a cat using up it’s nine lives, that I won’t survive too many more relationships where I have lost myself through men.

I feel glad and safe to be back in my own space though I am still stressed about other issues in my life and I took yesterday off work due to body soreness from working too many hours over the last couple of days. He too gets a lot of body soreness from his work but so far, neither of us appears to have any lasting injury from this.

 

I’m not going to be able to go and stay with him as often as I did in the early part of the relationship because I simply can’t fit that in my life. He did tell me that he misses me a lot, and mentioned how quite recently I had worked close to where he lived on 2 nights and only stayed at his place on one of those nights. In hindsight, even though I have not complained, I do think he is selfish in always wanting me to stay at his place and making excuses (not all of them unreasonable) for not coming to my place more often than he does. I have thought about it, and I think that a major reason for this is that he likes to remain in his own palace and kingdom where he rules. I may tell him that if the subject comes up again. For a while though, I just want some peace and really need to be focussing on some of the other areas of my life.

[Realitynut]

Oh SB....ain't life a beotch when you get past the infatuation stage???

 

I found out that when I told Dan..."I'm leaving', or 'you're gonna go find someone else' , or things of that nature....I was probably saying it cuz I wanted him to reasure me....No, don't leave...I love you." . or NO, I'm not gonna find anyone else...I love you".....Of course I never heard those things.

 

So when Dan told ME....maybe we should break up...I told him what I wanted to hear , and that was NNNOOOO, I LOOOOOVE you....

When in reality he meant it.

 

I don't think D means it. I do think he is self-sabotaging to see if you will stick around....but he's not aware of it. It wasn't until Dan actually left me, that i had to do a LOT of inner searching....but unlike D who won't take ANY Blame...lol...I took All the Blame!

 

Two people with issues. My heart goes out to you SB....cuz i understand....and you are a FAR better person than I!!! D is so lucky to have you. Your D and I would have killed eachother by now!!!! LOL

 

BTW....June 30 and Aunt of Dans died. He spent the night.

Last night he was here. A favorite Aunt died. He came with his brother. We met at the funeral home 2 miles from my house. He came to my place just before midnight like before. We took puppy and wallked along the river. He stayed for a number of hours at my place....and in my bed. sigh

 

Some day I'll go into details. I have been seeing quite a few guys lately...and they have ALL been AWFUL. The young 36 yr. old that i was all gaga over....we never met...and then it was over. I'll write about it all in my journal someday.

 

Whatever you have to do SB....we will be here for you, but I agree with mhowe. It's so easy to throw in the towel. Life ain't easy. People our age are set in our ways. We aren't all 'healthy'. We all do have some baggage. But does that mean we arent' lovable. If 90% of us is good, can't people love us dispite the 10% of the time we are 'acting out' or crazy acting....or just not being rational.....or thinking we ARE being rational...and the other person is thinking.....she's/he's NUTS!

 

Don't you wish sometimes life was just plain easier.....

 

I hope your health issues get better SB. I thought they were???

Love you....take care....I am keeping track of you and D...even tho i don't post often....(cuz i ramble too much when i do!!!!!! LOL)

 

C

[Realitynut]

SB......I found it funny...or odd...lol....that when he was working by your house,,,,and you said he could have stopped by for a cup of tea if you hadn't been at work....he went ballistic....as if he didn't have TIME to just pop in....at your place....

 

BUT....when you were working 2 nights close to HIS place....he thought YOU should stop in....hmmmmmm......

 

Just something to think about....

[mhowe]

You need to take care of you. And not take his "outbursts" as personally. It is easy to memorize this mantra when dealing w/ this type of personality:

 

It is not about me.

 

I just want to re-stress this -- because you noted he makes comments about women in general, or his experience -- and you personalize it. On the whole, it seems as though he is trying to reassure you that he loves you, and has your back....and that you both carry baggage from the past, which is normal. And to be expected. And to be overcome.

 

I also find that if I take a step back, and center (not retreat, not close him out) -- that when he has recentered, he - much like D. -- comes back w/ more trust and more openness -- and more wanting to be together.

 

It is a balance, an every changing dynamic --- but that is life. And certainly, melding another life into your own.

 

When in doubt --- pause. And breathe.