Relationships With Severely Avoidant People

[Silverbirch]

Hi JN,

He usually rings me every night to say good night and rarely sends texts unless he needs to tell me something important - he sent me a hello text today with XXX and 000XXX!

 

I thought when I said that to him about animals, he would be a bit annoyed but he had this big smile on his face.

 

Edit PS: I don't know how the little green man got in there ??magic??

[Silverbirch]

I'll try reading up on my own anxious attachment style. Some of the things I already read were interesting. Apparently a belief amongst a lot of professionals is that people with avoidant attachment style usually only have close relationships with people who have anxious attachment styles. There is generally not enough glue between 2 avoidants to make a relationship stick, and people with a secure style don't generally stay. On the other hand, people with anxious style will either be with an avoidant or a person with a secure style, but a partner who is patient of the insecurities of an anxious type.

 

Generally, in such a relationship, the anxious type will need to make an extra effort to maintain close strong friendships outside of the primary relationship and work hard at maintaining a fulfilling life outside of the relationship - something we should all do anyway, but extra important in this relationship dynamic.

 

Since that last conversation, so much more is making sense to me now.

 

I'm surprised that this thread has the red envelope hot topic beside it, but just you and me have posted. Maybe it's because even though it is likely there are lots of anxious and avoidant relationships with people here, it's not something a lot of people have an awareness about in their relationships. The avoidant is generally viewed as a bad guy - but maybe it is because they can seem so baffling at times, and their commitmentphobia can present issues for our self-esteem and sense of security.

[Silverbirch]

So far, the reading has been interesting, and it's good to know that people's attachment styles can and do change. In hindsight, I would say that my ex, R, who I was with for 10 years was a combination of anxious-avoidant (no wonder there was so much drama), but my most recent ex, G, I think also had an anxious attachment style so it's surprising that we were together for around 3 years. I've got several reasons for believing this.The different theorists and articles have some slightly different terminology for the various types of attachment - and there are actually 2 types of avoidants - dismissive-avoidants and fearful-avoidants.

 

Of course, there are various ways that things can go, but the ideal would be for both people to move closer to having secure attachment within themselves and consequently in their relationships.

 

If anyone has studied attachment theory, I'd be grateful for input. Thanks.

[Silverbirch]

I've only posted about it in my journal, but right now, I have BIG things happening, and David has truly been there for me. I'm trying hard not to lean too much on anyone, especially him, but it's fair to say that he is being a real rock of strength to me. He's been very loving and affectionate, and I don't think I could ask for more.

[mhowe]

I've only posted about it in my journal, but right now, I have BIG things happening, and David has truly been there for me. I'm trying hard not to lean too much on anyone, especially him, but it's fair to say that he is being a real rock of strength to me. He's been very loving and affectionate, and I don't think I could ask for more.

 

I am glad he is there for you, SB. Same thing going on w/ me -- my family (both bro and mom)facing signifcant health issues, and my bf has been just a rock. Being in his company simply calms me...and like you, am independent and trying not to lean to heavy.

 

Best wishes.

[Silverbirch]

Thanks so much MHowe. I'm surprised at just how wonderful he has been. I stayed overnight at his place Saturday night and through the day on Sunday. When we went to bed, he gently arranged my body so that my head was rested over his chest and his arms were around me. It was very comfortable and we both slept that way all night. We both slept very well and peacefully. He has been ringing me twice a day - usually we just have a good night chat before we go to sleep, but he's been ringing in the day saying nice things. Definitely at this point in time, there is a real closeness between us. I've managed to mostly stay upbeat around him. The thought of him being upset because of me is horrible and I don't want him to be sad and upset.

 

Sorry to hear about your Mom and bro. I saw what you had written about your Mom on another thread. All the best to you, your Mom and bro and of course good wishes for your SO.

[Silverbirch]

Hi Everyone,

I just wanted to post to say that things are going just lovely. Despite having some big things going on in my life, I am very happy right now, and calmer than I can recall being. I feel a lot more secure within myself and that is having a positive effect on the relationship. He has been there for me - but at the same time, I don't think I have been needy or felt truly overwhelmed. I know there have been times that he has felt very upset about my health and I'm determined that I'm going to be around for a long time.

 

Well, I wanted to write about something lovely he did. Remember I wrote about us doing things alongside each other. Well, since I've known him, I've told him that I have so wanted an American John Deere Ride-On Mower. I tried unsuccessfully to talk my landlord (who is a millionaire) to buy one so I could help maintain this property better. Well, the night before last when David had collected me and taken me to his place, he told me he had a surprise and took me to his shed. It was almost darkness so he had a torch with him. He had gone that day and bought a brand new John Deere Ride-On for me to use alongside him (not too close) while he is on his tractor and for having a good time on. LOL, I know to a lot of people it must sound like I need a life, but I'm happy when I'm doing those things.

 

He also had gone out and bought a classic Harley Davidson 1200 Sportster which he says he has bought as an investment, and that it has been a case of now or never.

 

I have this sense inside of me of having left my insecurities about the relationship and a type of acceptance of what is meant to be will be and that I'm enjoying the now with him. I am looking forward to seeing him tomorrow, but valuing my time alone to rest, take care of myself and get back into the swing of things. It''s so lovely where I live. I can't think of anywhere in the world better to rest up.

 

Hugs Everyone. XXXXXX

[Silverbirch]

I suppose this has become more like a journal than a post asking questions, but I feel proud and happy with how things have gone since I first posted this thread. I've had a couple of ENA members who don't post on the boards send me mail, sharing their experiences with partners who have avoidant styles. It definitely is not without hope for any of us, I think anyway.

 

Yesterday I had my first ride on the John Deere. There was something about D which struck me as very positive. I've realised, partly through being with him how the other men in my life talked down to me, especially about various matters, but that D seems to not be like that at all with me. D's best friend drops by unexpectedly, but he still takes time out to run through how to work the ride-on with me. He and his friend are watching and taking photos of me, and D is very calm with me despite this being a shiny new toy he was very calm and insistent I have some fun on it. Well, I was riding along and when I tried to put it in reverse, I seemed to have flooded it. D is in the kitchen having a cup of tea with his friend so I tap on the window telling him I flooded it. If something like that happened with my son's father or the other 2 men I have been with, the reactions would have ranged from patronising, telling me I'm stupid, telling me that they will do it and having them take over. D's response - he hardly stopped his conversation with his friend and just said, "That's okay. Just get on and start it up again." I noticed before when he was helping me transport my horses, and despite him being very experienced and me having had virtually none at that time, he just stood back and said something like: "I'll just watch - I know you are better at this than I am." All of the other men in my life have just "taken over" so many things I've wanted to do and I let myself lose confidence through that. Well, that day I first had to load my ponies (3 of them) into a trailer, it was unbelievable how perfectly it went. Despite 2 of them having not been transported for a long time, and certainly not by me, they went perfectly - better than when the professional horse handler transported them. D can be very laid back about a lot of things - and that seems to be very good for me. I was thinking how he hasn't even done anything avoidant for a while. He seems different. I think he feels safer.

 

Staying with him these last 2 nights has been very relaxing and happy - I think for both of us.

[journeynow]

So good to hear. D sounds like a natural teacher!

[Silverbirch]

Hi JN, sorry I only just saw your reply. Yes, as far as things like that go, he is very confidence-inspiring.

 

LOL, he rang me at work last night and said he is missing me!!! I last saw him 2 days ago - this is a new thing for him. I laughed telling him I would never have imagined a year ago that he would say that after just 2 days of not seeing me. He agreed and said: "Yes, with me, things take time."

[mhowe]

But let there be spaces in your togetherness,

And let the winds of heavens dance between you. . . .

 

Sing and dance together and be joyous, but let each one of you be alone,

Even as the strings of a lute are alone though they quiver with the same music.

 

Love it!!!!

[Silverbirch]

Hi MHowe,

Thanks for your post. I hadn't seen it there before. Yes, there are other lines in that poem I like a lot but that is all I could fit into my signature. I like also what The Prophet says about work and children. It's all so timeless.

 

I stayed at D's last night. We are getting along so well and have become very close. He told me at least a hundred times (without any prompting) that he loves me and misses me and so looking forward to the time when neither of us has to go away to our own place. I'm looking more forward to it as well.

 

Anyway, the latest is that he thinks I've done well with the John Deere ride-on and has offered to teach me how to use the tractor! LOL, I remember when I moved to where I currently live, my ex made me promise him that I would never use the landlord's tractor or even hop on for a ride as he thinks they are too dangerous. I just said yes to keep him quiet though didn't have plans of sticking to that.

 

D's almost finished building the big trailer for the hay baler and the weather has greatly improved. It's a perfect day here and the temp will reach 30 degrees. D took his new Harley out for a ride yesterday meeting up with his best friend in a nearby town for coffee. They are in the process of buying an investment block of land together in a popular country holiday region which has access to a private air strip. Both of them have pilot's licenses and his friend T has his own small plane. T and I get along very well. They do not have plans to build a house on it, but perhaps to have a shed and have camping holidays there. D asked me if I will consider moving up there with him, with both of us getting a property close to the investment block. I told him that I will have to look into it as I have work, etc which I need to consider.

 

I feel very happy and contented today. He slept in for maybe the first time since I have known him saying that he slept very deeply and well and that he knows that is because I was there.

[mhowe]

I know what you are saying re: that he slept well. These intensely private men we adore -- find it hard to be vulnerable. And yet, they can be at their best when we allow ourselves to be vulnerable with them.

 

We all carry baggage from the past. But when you find that place that feels like home, you must fight all of your learned behavior and relax into it in order to find authentic love. As you struggle w/ your health issues --- D feels able to "be there" and make sure that you know it like never before. And it is not temporary. It is a strengthening of your connection because you have allowed him in. Those like your D , and my bf -- who put up the biggest barriers --- it is because they are, in fact, very sensitive. And see and appreciate your trust in them, and in your connection. Let him be there for you = it gives him pride and strength in himself. And, it's really, really nice!

[Silverbirch]

Thanks MHowe,

It has been really beautiful. Yes I think they are very sensitive. The more I am getting to know him, the more I like him. It does feel like I'm HOME right now.

[Silverbirch]

Things have continued to go exceptionally well, and yesterday, there was another positive development which might seem small to most people, but it made me very happy and I can tell he is very happy too.

 

We (D and I) went to lunch with my son to celebrate my birthday from a few days ago. It was a lovely day and we came back to my place afterwards. After my son left, D and I spent time together doing different things and talking. It came up how both of us used to go cycling with our kids (we had each raised one child alone - he had a daughter and I had a son). He talked about how much he used to like that and that he still has his bike though he hasn't ridden it for years, and he wanted to know what happened to mine. I told him how I no longer had any bikes - I used to have several. He said he wants to check out bikes for me and get one for me the perfect size. Then he got excited saying what a great idea it would be if we could go cycling together - and where we should go - a fairly famous trail with separate trails for horseriding and cycling and it's very scenic and long - a day trip. I've linked to some images of it below. Click on the first photo halfway down the page and you can view 5 enlarged images.

 

link removed

 

We were talking about how our lives had been quite similar in some respects. We had both married other people young and been financially very comfortable, and then divorce and bringing up children on our own had completely changed our lives with financial struggles, many types of stresses and some types of social isolation. I was and am still amazed at how well he provided for his daughter, and what he was able to do for her and continues to do.

 

He talked about how home had become his world. He had lost the home he owned through divorce and single parenthood as had I (I had a lovely home with big elms and many silverbirch trees - my favourites - set amongst a beautiful garden enclosed within a white picket fence). It was so hard and sad to leave that home where I had thought I would live forever.

 

He talked about his home as his sanctuary, that apart from taking his daughter to pony club and to riding lessons, life had become about trying to create a safe and happy home. My life with my son was very similar. There was a lot we talked about, hardships that neither of us want to share with others but are comfortable sharing with each other - things that have become a part of who we are and how we tick, hardships and fears we both hope to never experience again.

 

When it was time for him to go, I went out to say good-bye and wave him off as he drove off on his Harley. As I was standing there, he asked what I was laughing at. I hadn't even realised I was laughing and told that I was just smiling loudly because I was very happy.

[journeynow]

If there were a "LIKE" button on eNA, I would click it. This is a heartwarming read. Thanks for sharing, SB! (hugs)

[Silverbirch]

Thanks JN! It seems like he has just thawed out and melted! Also when he saw me on Sunday, at times he was almost "coy" and said to me: "I had a compliment about you yesterday". I just said: "That's nice" and then later said, "OKay tell me about the compliment". He said that he had seen one of his clients the day before and I had met this client a few weeks ago. All D said to me was: "She said we make a very nice couple." He had a big smile on his face. I feigned shock and said: "I didn't think you believed in coupledom."

 

It was funny, when he rode off on his motorbike on Sunday, I felt like a young girl and thought "My boyfriend rides a motorbike!"

[Silverbirch]

It feels like ages since I have posted here - almost 8 weeks. I thought I would call in to say that my SO hasn't been seeming avoidant in recent times. He's certainly come out of his shell a lot, not just with me I think but with a lot of people. I got to a point where it was simply not practical for me to be the one who almost always travelled to his place, and I just had to stop going. That was when he started coming to see me. We usually only see each other once a week due to distance and work and other responsibilities, but atm, it's pretty much equal with the travel. I wasn't able to sustain the idea of a vegetable garden because of needing to get there to water it. There is another possible project though - building/restoring a "gypsy" caravan which we plan to put on a weekender block.

 

He has also become very open with me with his feelings. I wouldn't say that it has all been easy travelling. In fact, in early December, I decided that I had to speak my truth on a couple of things and if he ended the relationship because of that, I would simply bite the bullet. The reverse has happened, and it has made us closer and happier.

 

He's coming over tonight and we spoke this morning on the phone. He brought up the subject of our long-term future - that he wants us to be together and he wants to know how I feel.

 

For Xmas, he gave me a gold lockett with little diamonds in and a lovely card with a personal message. We spent Xmas day together and with my grown-up son, and then I had to go to work. He said it was the best Xmas he had for many, many years.

 

That's pretty much things in a nutshell atm and it's going along okay. Hope you are all well.

[IAmFCA]

SB I remember your earlier posts. So glad to read the update! You found a way to address issues without scaring him back into his shell. A worthy accomplishment indeed. Thank you for sharing your good news.

[Silverbirch]

Thanks ITIC, well to be truthful, there was one issue which might seem small to a lot of people, but to me, I know it could have the potential to make me very unhappy over a long period of time - hence when I say I had to bite the bullet. It was in relation to Xmas, etc, he had informed me that he didn't celebrate Xmas or give presents, etc, that it was just another day to him. It played on my mind for ages. When I thought it out, I knew that if I stayed with him for 10 years, and 10 Xmases passed with no celebrations or presents, I would feel sad and that I missed out. I had to tell him that I saw that as an important incompatibility between us. He showed up at my place unexpectedly the day before Xmas - and basically, he compromised of himself and he ended up having a Xmas which he says he enjoyed more than he has for many years.

 

I'm supposed to be in the bath getting ready for us to go out tonight! LOL

[Realitynut]

Thanks JN! It seems like he has just thawed out and melted! Also when he saw me on Sunday, at times he was almost "coy" and said to me: "I had a compliment about you yesterday". I just said: "That's nice" and then later said, "OKay tell me about the compliment". He said that he had seen one of his clients the day before and I had met this client a few weeks ago. All D said to me was: "She said we make a very nice couple." He had a big smile on his face. I feigned shock and said: "I didn't think you believed in coupledom."

 

It was funny, when he rode off on his motorbike on Sunday, I felt like a young girl and thought "My boyfriend rides a motorbike!"

 

I'm thinking that summer has a tendency to 'warm' his heart, and he gets moody and withdrawn during the winter months. I'm much happier during the spring when i can get out and walk and it's not so hot and humid....i LOVE SPRING with all the flowering trees and stuff....

 

Also seems weird that you have Christmas during the summer...hahahahaha.....apparently you don't have all that Santa and reindeer stuff!! lol

 

I don't know about D. He doesn't do Valentines Day, he doesn't DO Christmas....he doesn't like to do anything that has 'romance' written all over it!!

 

But once he does for YOU....of course he enjoys it! It just seems like he closed off his heart and all that mushy stuff so he doesn't get hurt....maybe.

 

I couldn't handle not having Christmas...especially if i cared for him. I am so glad he is coming around....i was worried about you too for awhile!!! lol

 

See? I always said, 'Don't hold things in...it only makes you miserable'....!!! You have to TRUST in D, that he will love you, and that means UNDERSTAND you and where you are coming from. If he loves you...and the old 'stick in the mud' does....he'll have empathy eventually....and realize that Valentine's day and ALL the holidays....are GOOD things.

 

BTW...it sounds like your old house was sooooo lovely. Over here in the US....the wife MANY times gets the house...especially if she's raising kids.

 

Happy New Year SB...and i'm so glad you're BACK!

[Silverbirch]

Happy New Year to you too Carla. It was very hot here today and tomorrow there is a major fire alert. It is expected to be 40 degrees. I won't be going to work in case there are fires and I have to evacuate. David is doing the same. It's much greener and less hazardous where he is, but there is still a risk. It will be too hot for him to be working outdoors anyway.

 

Yes, my old home was lovely. There was a time where I thought I was going to be there for the rest of my life. I did a lot of work to make it a home, and for most of that time was a stay-at-home mother. My husband used to travel interstate often and my son was young, and we lived a long way from our families due to his work base being in Melbourne. (Our families live 2 states away and I was unable to move back to my parents due to family law at the time). From time to time, David will say something about the times when he was bringing his daughter up on her own, and I think it was much worse for him. He was able to initially keep his home, but then lost it about 2 years later. They had a comfortable life too and went away a lot on ski-ing weekends. He's a motorcycle mechanic by trade and used to go off to a famous race each year outside of Sydney as part of a "team". He didn't ride in the race but worked on the racing bikes. On Boxing Day, his daughter showed me a photo of him when he was around 20 years of age (quite a number of years before he was married) and he was going to the Bathurst Races as part of the team then too. He had shoulder length hair and facial hair - unrecognisable, but handsome.

 

I'm sure I told you that a few months ago,he bought a Harley Davidson and has been riding over to my place on it. I was shocked when I learnt that prior to his divorce, he had been the President of the state Harley Davidson Club which is a massive club and well-respected. A year ago, I met a man who is in the equine industry and when he found out David was my BF, he said some things to me which surprised me. This man's son has known D for many years and said, "My son said that David is amazing, he has done so many different things - it seems there's nothing he can't do." I've found out a little more about that since then and there were things he had told me about, but had played down though I know he is big on personal goals. . . . but his goals have changed.

 

Yes, you are right Carla. It does seem that he is rediscovering that Xmas and other celebrations can be really good. It seems to me that many of those years were spent alone and lonely (although he was in denial of that) or in poverty and he felt he wasn't able to celebrate it. Funny thing is that I'm christian although I was brought up as one (I'm another faith now), but I really appreciate a lot about Christianity and it's grassroot teachings. I have a smallish and lovely nativity setting which I bring out each year. I probably get more enthusiastic about some parts of Xmas than a lot of Christians! LOL!

 

Carla, it's funny that in these last few weeks when D and I have seen each other, he will call me within a few hours and tell me he is missing me: "I've gotten used to having you around" LOL! Also, when I do see him, first thing he wants to do is give me a BIG kiss and hug. I don't feel blindly in love, but I do feel filled with love and that I am loved also if that makes sense - and I feel happy . . . even though I'm very tired. THANKS XXXXX

[Silverbirch]

I just HAD to post here to say that I am really happy today. D visited me yesterday and we were both surprised by my housemate returning home from his holiday unannounced. It felt a bit like being a teenager when you have a your boyfriend over and your parents come home. D's face just dropped with disappointment! LOL! I ended up going to his place for the night. Wouldn't you know it - the housemate left again this morning after I came home for another couple of days.

 

We were still in the heatwave and both of us tired and sore from work. We just slept with a fan on us and stroked each other to sleep. It seems like ages, even though it isn't, since we spent the night together. I felt totally comfortable and contented and I could tell he did too. We both had to get up early, and as usual, he brought tea and toast in to bed. Then we both had to get on with things. We are both missing each other when we are apart, and it has been so good when we do get together. . . . our dogs miss each other too. When I bring my dog over, his oldest dog Bruce, is in D's words, a different dog, full of life in a way he has never seen him. I take them bones and take them for walks so they get excited to see me and my dog gets super happy to see D too.

[Silverbirch]

It feels a bit weird to be posting here again. I think I am getting a better understanding of what all of this avoidance has been about. I started going to a counsellor last year because of extreme anxiety about the cancer and I'm still seeing him though I am less anxious, and I seem to be making developments in some areas of my life.He always asks me what is happening with D and we always spend at least a small amount of time discussing this.

 

Anyway, the situation with his father has NOT improved a bit. Worse though is that D never says anything to him. EVERY Sunday - unless his ex-girlfriend has agreed to see him because she needs something - his father will rock up at his house, always unannounced and usually stays until at least 8.30pm. His father showed up once on a Friday night when D and I were going to a dinner dance and wanted to come with us. We had bought the tickets beforehand so got out of that easily. His father has also asked to stay the night, but D simply says he doesn't have room for him. I have worked every Saturday and every Second Saturday for close to one year. That means that usually the only time I get to see him for the day is every second Sunday. Because of this, I rarely get to be alone with him except for the times everyone has gone home and we are in bed together.

 

Every Sunday before and after his father has visitied, D curses him saying he doesn't want to see him. However, despite suggestions as to how he could simply say something like: "Dad, please don't come this Sunday because I have made other plans." D comes up with all types of excuses as to why he can't do this. I'm sure I would have posted much earlier in the thread that his father left the family when D was 13 and made NO contact for 8 years. He moved in with another woman - a younger one with a family of her own. Then when D's father was in his 70's, she sold up her things and moved interstate and told him he couldn't come with her. From time to time, she comes back to this state for holiday or business purposes and D's father falls all over himself to be her chaffeur.

 

Now at the risk of sounding a bit crazy, I have realised something which sort of stunned me. Although D keeps pretty much to himself, he has a best male friend who he has known for around 10 years. I've never had anything against this guy - until quite recently. A couple of months ago, he talked D into going halves with him in buying a piece of land in the country to be used as a weekender and also be an investment. The total cost for both was $60,000 (30,000 each). I thought it was a great idea. The friend seemed surprised that I thought so.

 

Anyway, a few months down the track, the friend says he can't go halves with D, because he will be able to pay cash to buy that block of land and D would borrow money and that could cause problems with the title, etc. However, D lets himself get talked into buying the block next door and puts $1,000 deposit on it. I should add that D has never even seen the block of land. I was starting to get suspiicious and asked D if he had engaged a lawyer to do the conveyancing or would he do it himself. He hadn't and didn't know anything about conveyancing. I offered to look into the costs of DIY conveyancing and risks, etc. I asked him also if he had contacted the local government to find out if there were caveats or restrictions on that land and about surrounding development. He hadn't.

 

I know a lot of people will disagree with this, but I took it upon myself to do some very vague research online at the local govenment website and found a document related to the land and found out some pretty devastating things about it. I immediately showed D. It's complicated, but one major clause in the development is that the local government can buy back the land at any time at "cost". Also, he cannot plant any trees on the land or take domestic animals onto that land. There are a LOT of building restrictions on the land and it is zoned for aviatiion purposes and a hangar will need to be built on the land by a date specified on the sale document. D knew nothing of this and was disappointed. I thought he would probably pull out of the sale, and he contacted his friend. He has NOW let his friend talk him into borrowing more money to build an aircraft hangar. The original amount of $30,000 has now jumped to at least $100,000 AND D is talking about moivng up there and living in a caravan while he builds not only his own hangar but helps his friend put up his too. He wants me to go with him. I have said no for several reasons.

 

The creepy thing though is that it has struck me how like his father this "friend" is. They even look alike and lots of things in common which I outlined in another thread.

 

I told my counsellor about it and am baffled as to why D can't have boundaries with his father and with his friend. Counsellor says that there are quite a lot of men who simply can't say no to other men. He talked of ways men manipulate each other and that they are scared of being ostracised by other men - that they say things like: "Oh is that what the little woman is telling you to do."

 

The way things are looking right now, I think these issues are going to cause this relationship to end. I have a lot of reasons why I can't leave where I am - and frankly, I don't want to right now. I have seen other much better land and other regions which offer much better employment and lifestyle opportunities.

 

I'm not sure why I'm even posting this as I don't think there is advice anyone can give me. I'm feeling upset about it and just have to get it out. Thanks for reading if you have gotten this far.