violated last night

[GrowingIn]

I've been following this for about a week now, and kept thinking about how I want to respond to it because the first time I read it, something just didn't sound quite right. I re-read it over and over to make sure before I responded. Now I tend to keep personal feelings and emotions out of situations like this because of the seriousness of the matter so please don't take offense that I am not quick to offer immediate consolation as some of the other members did.

 

I may come off sounding unsympathetic, but reading your original story objectively, and just following the facts, I see some glaring holes in it and something just doesn't add up for me. I'm going to be blunt but after picturing the entire scenario as you described it, everything after the part where you were pulling away when he was trying to kiss you, sounds more like submission....not rape or violation.

 

If it was just you and him, it would make a lot more sense, but considering you were surrounded by other people, and moved around the house, down the stairs, you're 26 years old, not a child, there was both oral and vaginal intercourse taking place, and not a peep or sound was made......well let me just put it to you this way....if I was a defense attorney for that guy, and that was your story....not only would it take nothing to throw it out, but I could even sue you in return. And I would delve really deeply into your admitted prior sexual relationship with him and the outcome of that relationship.

 

I'm sure some are going to accuse me of being being callous, and I'm sorry to you all, but I'm going to go ahead and ask the questions nobody else seems to want to ask. I just can't picture someone not wanting this to happen, to be "walked down the stairs" and then -this is the part that you left out("long story short"?)- sit there and wait for the guy to unzip his pants, and pull out his penis, and violate your mouth? Even if you didn't want to make a sound, why did you just walk down the stairs and then wait around? Especially if you "knew that was going to happen"? Did he threaten you? Was he pushing you down the stairs? Did he hold you down when you both got there? Did he tie you up? Were you drugged? How did he hold your mouth open? Where were your hands, legs in all of this? These are questions that will be brought up if and when you decide to move forward with this.

 

I'm going to go against the grain here and disagree with the other members, but to me, this doesn't sound anything like violation or rape. I know there's always a fine line in situations like this, and sometimes those involved are not really sure what to think of it themselves, but what I'm getting from all this is ...."I feel guilty for submitting". So far the only thing you have on him, is kissing you without consent. Everything after that.....you went along with it. It's not rape. It's not violation. And the rest sounds more like "buyer's remorse".

 

The only advice I'd give, is if you go on and report this, I wouldn't report the story you posted in your OP. Maybe you left some things out?

[Applewhite]

First of all she doesn't seem to want to report this - because she is scared/humiliated/too fragile to deal with it. Second of all she was intoxicated and not able to give consent. Third of all she has stated he was bigger than her and that she was scared. Fourth of all she had previously been with him so she was humiliated/embarrassed at how it would look if she made a scene in front of her friends.

 

You just don't seem to get it....

[GrowingIn]

I do get it. I get it very well. Like I said, I've though about this for quite some time before responding, and I've taken a lot of things into consideration before posting that reply. I'm going to stick by what I wrote.

[Applewhite]

So basically you think that the OP had a rape/submission fantasy and she took a chance at that when it was 'offered' and then she felt guilty and blamed him? Just trying to understand where you are coming from.

[Betweenthebars]

All a woman needs to do is show she is not consenting at some point - in her case, it was in the beginning. Some women become paralyzed with fear and don't know how to react. I don't believe becoming so fearful you can't move is "submission". Even if she wouldn't win a court case, as you say, every man needs to know no means no.. Pulling away, on top of saying no, means she didn't want to have sex.

 

According to what OP said, after the act this man knew he was guilty and had violated her. Otherwise, he wouldn't have acted in such a manner the next day. I don't see "buyers remorse" anywhere. Oh, and her leaving out details? Well, I don't know if you have been raped before, but right after the act takes place, writing down every single detail isn't the easiest thing in the world.

[GrowingIn]

I'm going to refrain from making any assumptions and stick to the facts as far as what I think. While I have my own beliefs, in no way do I believe the OP planned this as some elaborate scheme like what you are implying. However, I do believe, that what she really needs to hear is an objective opinion.

[Miss Firecracker]

I'm going to refrain from making any assumptions and stick to the facts as far as what I think. While I have my own beliefs, in no way do I believe the OP planned this as some elaborate scheme like what you are implying. However, I do believe, that what she really needs to hear is an objective opinion.

 

Just one question. Is this something you could do to a woman? If you did that, wouldn't you consider it wrong?

[beautifulzen]

No, it is not your fault. What he did to you was wrong and he should be held accountable for his mistake. You did nothing wrong. At the very least talk to someone and don't let this fester, and stay away from him.

[Miss Firecracker]

He picked her up and forced her downstairs. I can imagine, maybe she thought he was playing around and she could handle the situation. Then he's stronger and she is drunker than she realizes. She didn't want to embarrass him or herself. And for that, she gets something in her mouth and vagina. I think that's pretty much a rape, but what do I know?

[GrowingIn]

Like I said, she has him for kissing without consent. That's it. But if that's the full story, I believe you are wrong in that all it takes is a no in the beginning, in this case. We don't live in the 90s anymore and accusations such as this are put through a lot more scrutiny nowadays. Like I said, maybe there are some things left out of this story, but this would never stand up as one continuous act. But rather two or three separate events. It would be as easy to separate as someone asking for it today and getting a "no", and then asking for it again tomorrow and getting a "yes". What happened upstairs, and then what happened downstairs.

 

 

 

In trying to maintain my attitude and position on this matter, I'm going to say that's a loaded question. No matter how I answer it, it wouldn't benefit towards my viewpoint on this. If I answered no, it would kill my argument. If I answered yes, it will kill my credibility. If I answered maybe, it would open up a can of worms and all kinds of speculation. Like I said, I really do believe what she needs to hear is an objective opinion simply based only on the facts of her own story. So I'm going to stick to that and refrain from answering your question.

 

I personally believe they are BOTH just as confused about what took place, especially when you consider alcohol was involved.

 

PS: I will say this much. Some are certainly adding their own "sprinkle" of action words on this event, including you Miss Firecracker. Nowhere in the OP were the words "forced downstairs" used and I paid careful attention to how she describe it. I believe the phrase was "he basically pick me up off the couch by putting his hands under my arms and walked me down the stairs".

[Applewhite]

You are splitting hairs here. She described in detail how he forced her down the stairs when she made it clear she didn't want to go there. I am really failing to see your point of view at all.

[Miss Firecracker]

I personally believe they are BOTH just as confused about what took place, especially when you consider alcohol was involved.

 

I'm don't think he's confused at all. He achieved his goal, lost his load and didn't talk to her again.

[Batya33]

I was the victim of sexual assault and luckily he listened to the third "no!" and stopped trying to have sex with me. He went on to harass several women I know and finally got kicked off Eharmony some years ago (oh and he was a very sophisticated, intelligent, clean cut guy and no alcohol was involved). But to Growing's point - I am a very assertive person, grew up in a city where street smart is the name of the game and yet - I was at work late one night and a coworker of mine came by to chat as he did from time to time. I was wary of him because he had started crossing the line in what he said to me and I was trying to keep things 100% professional (I did not flirt back -he was married and I had no interest anyway). That night, he walked to my side of the desk, leaned over and kissed me on the cheek "goodnight". I could have stopped him, I so wanted to stop him, I was perfectly capable of saying "stop" but I froze. He was much bigger than me, standing over me, and yes it was just a kiss on the cheek but highly inappropriate in a workplace! I literally had to rehearse what I would say and do if it ever happened again (he had asked me out to drinks, I had said no). The next time he tried I still felt frozen but forced myself to say "No, that is not appropriate" to which he replied "you mean the marriage or that we work together" and I replied "both". That's all I could say - me, who was so articulate, comfortable saying almost anything, I just wanted to disappear.

 

So, OP I can understand why you reacted as you did, I applaud you for your bravery and courage in trying to stop what was happening because apparently it's more than I could do and I was in a far less awkward, potentially dangerous (with the hurricane) situation than you. I cannot stand when women are taken to task for not fighting back harder or doing more - if I were in your shoes I would have been thinking "so, great, I fight him, I scream -then what, I have to be prepared to leave the house during a hurricane?

 

Yes of course there are situations where there are mixed signals but there is no way this is one of them.

[GrowingIn]

You are splitting hairs here. She described in detail how he forced her down the stairs when she made it clear she didn't want to go there. I am really failing to see your point of view at all.

 

I know you fail to see it and I wouldn't expect you to see my point of view. I also quite honestly fail to see the detail you are talking about in her story and there was nothing clear about any of it. Go back and read her posts. In fact, there's a lot of things missing. I'm going off of exactly her words, not yours or others interpretations of the event. I stated from the beginning that I did not agree with the others interpretations of this based on the story. And yes there is a whole heck of a lot of room for interpretation in there. Feelings and intentions and appropriate behavior can be interpreted a million different ways, but there are physical mechanics that tend to bring a lot of clarity in situations such as this, which are missing. This is what she stated:

 

"I kinda knew what was coming towards me. I dont know why I didnt try to fight harder, but I guess I knew what he was going to do to me and stupidly I didnt yell or try harder to push me off. "

 

This is what she is telling us she was thinking then. Key word "thinking". Not what she was telling or showing the guy. There is nothing clear about that. There is no clear resistance, physical or verbal, that she described after making the statement about the kissing incident. In fact she's admitting the opposite: she realizes she didn't display any. The only resistance she is describing in that statement, may have been in her thoughts. That's why I said, maybe she left out some parts of this story.

 

 

Anyway, I didn't really come here to convince anyone otherwise, and there are plenty of people that see this the way you do. I came here to post a reply that I honestly believe will help the OP. However, I will say this. I believe she is truly confused from a personal stand point at how to view what took place and I think more people should in fact listen to her when she also says:

 

"i still feel like it was my fault for letting that happen to me though. Looking back, theres so much I could have done to at least try to stop it."

 

She's directly, not passively, stated numerous times that she is aware she was not hopeless, could have done something, but didn't. I believe some are overlooking that and telling her not to think like that because "that's how victims" think whether she's looking for that or not. I think there's another type of forcing that's taking place in here, and that's forcing of "hopeless victim in denial" label on the OP even when she's indicating otherwise.

 

I'm not going to pretend I'm a license psychologist on this one and try to interpret her thoughts and feelings in those moments, and then based on that try to interpret what she's going through now and tell her shes wrong in how she thinks. If for no other reason, because frankly I personally agree with her based on her own story: there is a lot she could have done. Once again, the facts as she stated, tells a story of submission after the kissing event, not rape or violation. She went along with it.

 

Going along with something because of "feelings of embarrassment", or fear of some other indirect outcome that would cause discomfort or embarrassment from the refusal to participate, is not enough to turn around and claim rape or violation. That is what I got from that and not direct fear of the guy. Sorry, but just doesn't fly. And you should be careful to think that because some people may have been prior sexual assault victims, that they have a better idea of what constitutes such a thing. Not in the real world. You will rarely see a courtroom where a woman is claiming rape, and 10 out of 12 members of the jury happen to be prior victims of abuse. There's a reason why in real life jurors are screened for that.

[OptomisticGirl]

Have you ever been sexually assaulted? When it's happening, you can't stop the fear. You want to, you think you should, but you can't. Your paralyzed. I was sexually molested for three years as a child while my siblings sat in another room. I never made a sound, never made a peep, because every single time I was brought into that room i was paralyzed with fear. I knew hat was going to happen every single time but could never muster the courage to make a sound - fear is a very paralyzingly thing and until you have felt it yourlf in that situation, I find it highly insulting to say any woman is submissive during an attack when they didn't fight back.

[Miss Firecracker]

The kissing event? You mean when he was forcing his mouth onto hers...when she clearly closed down and didn't reciprocate? If a woman will not kiss you, it's a pretty good sign she won't **** you.

[Miss Firecracker]

The kissing event? You mean when he was forcing his mouth onto hers...when she clearly closed down and didn't reciprocate? If a woman will not kiss you, it's a pretty good sign she won't **** you.

 

This event, right?

 

told him that I didnt want to, but then he started putting his hands all over me and started kissing me. I pulled away from him, but hes a big guy and held on to my face. I pulled away at least 3 times and told him I didnt want to kiss, but he kept making out with me and the whole time I was going against it, trying to keep my mouth closed and not kissing back.

[Applewhite]

This event, right?

 

told him that I didnt want to, but then he started putting his hands all over me and started kissing me. I pulled away from him, but hes a big guy and held on to my face. I pulled away at least 3 times and told him I didnt want to kiss, but he kept making out with me and the whole time I was going against it, trying to keep my mouth closed and not kissing back.

 

And you think that after this, she was confused and wasn't sure if she wanted to have sex with him or not so she just stopped fighting back?

[DylanNotorious]

Milk&Honey are you going to have a talk with this guy? I mean, are you scared to be around him at the moment. You need to tell him what he did was very wrong, and that you were going to go to the police, but now your just giving him a warning.

 

Or are you just going to tell your therapist and just leave it.

[Miss Firecracker]

I think she could put herself in serious danger if she TELLS HIM she was considering reporting a rape. I surely wouldn't do that if I were her. Imagine what would go around in his head, him wondering if she may change her mind at any moment. People are scary and do the most horrible things when they think they may be in trouble.

[imsuperman]

Oh for God's sake DON'T talk to him!

 

Come on, guys.

[GrowingIn]

Have you ever been sexually assaulted? When it's happening, you can't stop the fear. You want to, you think you should, but you can't. Your paralyzed. I was sexually molested for three years as a child while my siblings sat in another room. I never made a sound, never made a peep, because every single time I was brought into that room i was paralyzed with fear. I knew hat was going to happen every single time but could never muster the courage to make a sound - fear is a very paralyzingly thing and until you have felt it yourlf in that situation, I find it highly insulting to say any woman is submissive during an attack when they didn't fight back.

 

Optimistic girl, I understand where you are coming from. If it was a child, or if she was alone with just him, it may be considered such a case. This is not the case at all here. This is a 26 year old girl, two adults, surrounded by other adults, who have previously had sexual relations with each other. All this took place without even waking anyone up. She's also admitted she would have slept with him again.

 

Apples and oranges.

 

And you think that after this, she was confused and wasn't sure if she wanted to have sex with him or not so she just stopped fighting back?

 

She has repeatedly stated she allowed it to happen knowing what was going to happen and knowing she could have done more about it. Over and over throughout this thread. Listen to her. That's all I did. Nobody's wanting to read that part.

 

Everybody here just wants to say "oh honey that's what all victims believe but it's not true". And that's fine, if that's what you want to do. But I honestly don't think that's going to help the OP out in the long run. So I'm sticking with the facts: after going over the entire thing over and over and over, and just looking at the facts, this reads like a description of submission, not violation or rape for everything beyond the kissing incident. She may have exhibited the thoughts and behavior of a helpless child, yes, but no reasonable, mentally sound adult would expect another 26 year old adult to behave in such a way. Now why that is, again, it's a different story, and I'm not Freud. You can ask her.

[Miss Firecracker]

And if my husband did the same thing to me it would be rape. Even if I would choose on another day to have sex with him, I might not this day. And if he dragged me downstairs and stuck his penis in my mouth when I said no and tried to pull away, that would be rape.

[Miss Firecracker]

If my husband were lifting me up by my arms and walking me down the stairs, I would probably not scream out because my children are home with us. It would be pretty humiliating for me to know my sons would know my husband was trying to get his penis inside me against my will. Yes, I could yell and say help, your father is raping me. But I wouldn't do that.

 

So you see? It can be embarrassing to be RAPED when you are in a house full of people.

[peanutbutterandjelly]

i made that post really fast and didnt include as many details as I should i have. I just wanted to post it up and get an opinion. so let me clarify some things...