Did i get raped?... or am i just stupid?

[Momake]

I think the only way to definitively define if it was rape or not is near to impossible - because the scenario we would have to prove would be:

 

1) The boy thought "this girl doesn't want this - I will do it anyways"

2) The girl thought "I don't want this... but I don't know how to say it and now it's too late"

 

We cannot read their minds so we cannot really ever determine whether its rape or not... and it doesn't really matter. What we can do is help the OP with deal with her issue. If she wants to believe it is rape - then we help her deal with it. If she wants to think that it's not rape - then we also help her deal with it.

 

If her way to cope with what happened is to claim it might have been rape. Then okay. Let's go with that... she needs to first understand that the guy may or may not have known he was "raping" her. Thus, she really shouldn't try to pursue any legal action against him. However, she can learn from this situation and she needs to talk with people who are trained to help her through it - so again, I say... rape crisis line.

 

Bottom line is - it doesn't matter if it was ACTUALLY rape or not... it just matters how the OP interprets it and how it affects her life from here on forward.

[Seraphim]

Yes. It is up to her how she feels about it and how she wants to deal with it.

[thathoopla]

Yes, because you are 17 and he is 21. Statuatory rape. You did not give consent.

 

Please follow your gut feelings sweetie. When it tells you that you don't like what's going on, get out of the situation.

[Capricorn3]

Yes, because you are 17 and he is 21. Statuatory rape.

Not necessarily. I think it depends on which State you're in?

[Seraphim]

Not necessarily. I think it depends on which State you're in?

 

This is true, it entirely depends on the area. When I was raped in BC almost 30 years ago.......it was only considered statutory 13 and under.

[anggrace]

OP

 

To answer your other question, NO you are not stupid. You were just having a hard time finding the strength to speak up. I know how it feels to really not want it but not put up a fight. Im not sure why we do this, it's almost paralyzing, but I do know how shameful and disgusted you can feel afterwards. That feeling will go away with time. You just have to stop beating yourself up. It was a mistake, one you have learned from and fortunately you'll never have to see him again. You are not stupid. You're human. Don't stop loving yourself and take care.

[abitbroken]

I think i these were two 16 year olds, we wouldn't be talking about rape. I think that this is a young woman who made a mistake. She kept kissing him. One kiss doesn't give permission for sex, but if a girl continues to participate, then I think that is where I side against rape. Not rape, but bad judgement. In the future - don't go out with someone you are unsure of. Don't get yourself in a position where you are alone with that person either until you get to know them. This is a date that went farther than you wanted to - but I don't think he raped you.

 

I am still mystified at how sex happened at the mall - but maybe she left out the part about going back to his place? And what about the clothes? He could say she unbuttoned something or unzipped something?

[greywolf]

I think it could be considered a technical rape, but the thing is, guys aren't mind readers. If you don't give a direct answer, they're not going to know what you mean. You can't just tell a guy that you're unsure and expect him to understand that you meant no.

 

Like I said, probably a technical rape, but OP it mostly sounds like you feel very guilty about it and are trying to shift blame elsewhere.

[Rotxsen]

Heh, seems like you enjoyed it point blank sorry it wasn't rape now don't do it again or you will regret it even more and try to stay away from him now he will you think easy prey

[tigger12]

OP, I'm very sorry this happened to you. I agree with others who suggest you talk to someone about it.

 

I was just struck by many of the posts. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I feel like too much is being made out of the fact that she didn't say no or yell or kick when she said she was unsure and did try to move his hands away.

 

If she had given him a few bucks to buy something at the mall and then a few minutes later, he asked her for her whole purse, and she said she wasn't sure and then he just took it anyway-- would we still be so stuck on the fact that she didn't say the word "no"? Wouldn't it be good enough that she didn't say, "Yes, you can have my purse" and he took it anyway? Would we say, "Oh, but she gave him a few bucks beforehand" (i.e. kissed him and let him cuddle). I realize this is not a perfect analogy, and a rape/sexual assault/unwanted sex is much more serious than a theft.

 

If we have to wait for her to say NO, that requires that unless she says NO, she is implying YES. Why is any person's body constantly available and in a state of YES to others?

 

What I think we should to teach is that you don't wait to hear a no. You ask for a yes, especially when you are with a younger girl or someone unfamiliar who may not be as comfortable asserting themselves and saying no. (And yes, I think girls need to be taught to be more assertive in saying what they do and do not feel comfortable with.) There are problems with the idea of each person giving consent each time. In a committed relationship, perhaps some kind of code or unspoken agreement could be made. It's not a perfect idea but I feel like it would demystify some of the, "Does he/she want this or not?" "Is this consent or not?"

 

Also I think part of the problem is that boys/men are taught: Keep going until she stops you, try to get as much out of her as you can. And women are then placed under all the burden of having to resist and be the ones that "stop." Wouldn't a "real man" want to make sure you actually want to have this sexual act with him? Why is some wishy-washy "I don't know" okay for him to go ahead and have sex with you? This I don't get. I don't believe men are literally ruled by their penises and can't think (especially considering the fact that he was older). Wouldn't people rather hear an "enthusastic yes!" to having sex or is someone moving your hands away and looking uncomfortable but letting you enjoyable?

 

As for the fact that she didn't scream-- I know that I have been in situations where I have been literally frozen with fear (though not a rape situation, a physical situation where I feared for my safety). I can imagine many young girls and older women being in a situation where they feel safe or do not see something coming and feel frozen, "He can't be doing that... He's going to stop soon... What is happening?" They may not think to even kick or scream until it has begun or is over. Maybe this is applicable to the OP, maybe not.

 

Edit: just wanted to clarify that I don't think there is some ideal of manliness by using the phrase "real man." Should have originally put it in quotation marks, and I meant it more as a kind of mocking thing for guys who think they have to score a lot to be a "real man."

[Lucius]

...women are then placed under all the burden of having to resist and be the ones that "stop." Wouldn't a real man want to make sure you actually want to have this sexual act with him? Why is some wishy-washy "I don't know" okay for him to go ahead and have sex with you? This I don't get. I don't believe men are literally ruled by their penises and can't think (especially considering the fact that he was older). Wouldn't people rather hear an "enthusastic yes!" to having sex or is someone moving your hands away and looking uncomfortable but letting you enjoyable?

 

Of course this is all true, but his lack of intelligence, sensitivity, empathy, and "real manliness" does not by itself render him a rapist. It renders him an oaf; a pushy, ignorant, selfish oaf. But not, IMO, a rapist.

 

This notion that the responsibility of saying "no" is somehow too much to ask does bother me. If my fiancee and I have sex, but before we begin she (as initiator) neglects to obtain from me a verbal assent, has she raped me? If I go along with it, do not say no, but feel badly later (for whatever reason)? I think not, myself. We each have responsibilities, and we cannot expect another to read our mind or truest wishes. We need to speak up. It is when we make our objection plain, and our wishes are ignored, that rape has been committed. IMO.

[FarthestEdge]

...I know I could have done something to like get out of the situatuion or not put myself in the situation but he pulled out a condom. (1) And i still said i was unsure but he pulled my clothes off.

 

***what happened in this timeframe???***

 

He asked if i climaxed, I said yes but i didnt'

just before he did i pushed him off of me eventhough he was wearing a condom(2)

 

WHERE did this happen? How did they get there.....

 

1) As another astute poster pointed out, this missing information is where the answer really lies. Was the guy pushy, yeah sure. But we don't know what non-verbal cues the OP may have given that contradicted her wishy-washy "I'm not sure....." We also don't know the extent of her participation in the act itself. He asked if she climaxed...he clearly believed it to be a consensual act. Rapists don't care if you climax.

 

2) She had it in her to push him off her before he climaxed 'eventhough he was wearing a condom"- so she was concerned about pregnancy, enough that she DID something to prevent it. It certainly doesn't sound to me like she was afraid of him, or afraid to say 'no' to him, but rather, got carried away, and did something outside of her normal character. If she could push him off her before he climaxed, she could have pushed him off her before he entered her.

 

IMO unless there is missing information, like that she complied because she was afraid he would harm her if she said 'no', or he physically restrained her

it is not rape. The guy may be an insensitive, horny jerk, but he's no rapist.

 

Having said that, the OP does need to examine why she would allow herself to be used in a sexual way that she was not interested in. I am not unsympathetic towards the OP, I think things probably were spinning a bit too fast, and she froze insomuch as she failed to voice her true feelings and get herself out of the situation (which BTW, she acknowledges she could have done). I got myself into a few of those situations in my youth, it's easy enough to do...

 

They both made mistakes, but it wasn't rape.

[DylanNotorious]

He told me he wanted to have sex and I told him I didn't, like I was unsure. I mean he didnt use force but he kept kissing me and I know I could have done something to like get out of the situatuion or not put myself in the situation but he pulled out a condom.

 

No it wasn't rape, and to all the woman encouraging her that it was shame on you.

[tigger12]

Of course this is all true, but his lack of intelligence, sensitivity, empathy, and "real manliness" does not by itself render him a rapist. It renders him an oaf; a pushy, ignorant, selfish oaf. But not, IMO, a rapist.

 

This notion that the responsibility of saying "no" is somehow too much to ask does bother me. If my fiancee and I have sex, but before we begin she (as initiator) neglects to obtain from me a verbal assent, has she raped me? If I go along with it, do not say no, but feel badly later (for whatever reason)? I think not, myself. We each have responsibilities, and we cannot expect another to read our mind or truest wishes. We need to speak up. It is when we make our objection plain, and our wishes are ignored, that rape has been committed. IMO.

 

I think you make a valid point about your fiance, which is why I said the asking for consent each time has problems and perhaps an pre-arranged agreement could be made in relationships where you continually have sex. I don't know. It's not a perfect solution.

 

Where I think it is most important is in hooking up situations, one night stands, etc. You might not really know this person. You might be interpreting their signals wrong. They might be very sexually inexperienced and not realize that you are about to try to have sex with them.

 

I definitely agree with you people should speak up and say no. You ask, why is it so much to ask she says no? But along the same lines, why is it so much of a burden for someone to just ASK instead of assuming? I think both people need to play a role here rather than just the receiver having to saying no. Isn't it better to just be safe and make sure the person actually wants to do it?

 

And you are right, him (or any person) being a jerk by itself makes him a rapist. Just because someone lacks empathy, is an idiot, or whatever, does not make them a rapist. The act of raping someone makes them a rapist.

[tigger12]

WHERE did this happen? How did they get there.....

 

Rapists don't care if you climax.

 

 

This is not necessarily true. I think some rapists don't realize they have raped someone or may have contradictory feelings about the person they are raping.

 

A friend of mine was once passed out sleeping over at a friend's house and woke up to a man attempting to have sex with her. She pushed him away and told him to stop. She passed out again. She woke up to him having sex with her. At no point in the prior evening did she say she wanted to have sex with him nor did he give any indication that he wanted to have sex with her. Later he contacted her online. He asked her if she wanted to hang out sometime and asked her if she had enjoyed it with some vague implication of climaxing.

 

I don't think he even realized he raped her.

[nutz76]

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Based on this, what he did IS NOT rape.

 

*Fixed.

 

Seriously, go back and read that link again. Her explanation of the events does not meet the criteria. Here, I'll break it down for you:

 

- without consent, or (no means no, which she never said, thereby giving implied consent--she never asked for a yes from him, he never asked for a yes from her. both gave implied consent through their actions)

- with use of physical force, coercion, deception, threat, and/or when the victim is: (none of which was used)

- mentally incapacitated or impaired, physically impaired (due to voluntary or involuntary alcohol or drug consumption) (not applicable)

- asleep or unconscious. (not applicable)

 

 

You people with your rape fantasies need to check your bias at the door. All that happed here was he took initiative by leading her through her emotions and being dominant. It gives her plausible deniablity so she could say to her friends "one thing led to another". Hell, many women get off on this sorta thing. Read the book My Secret Garden.

 

The only reason the OP posted was because she feels guilty because she has feelings for her ex. Regrets and having "icky feelings" for past actions does not make said actions a crime. The only possibility for rape in this entire fiasco is due to the ages involved, although for most states 16 is the legal age of consent now.

 

This entire thread brings to light the rape culture that exists these days. It all traces back to nutjob feminist idealogy that all women are victims. Give these a read, go through the comments, and go forth setting the record straight:

 

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[lady00]

There is a lot of misinformation on this thread. I don't know that there is a clear answer to this that applies everywhere. I would imagine there are different standards in different states/countries (maybe I missed the info, but I'm not sure where the OP lives). Some places may require that there be force, others may now (I am certain that some do not and simply require lack of consent). And generally speaking, from everything I have read, silence or "I'm not sure" is not consent. The problem that arises is that in real life, women do not often say "yes" verbally and men often do not worry about whether or not there is verbal consent. But that doesn't mean that silence is consent or that certain behavior is necessarily consent.

[tigger12]

Read further down the page on that link:

 

Was it rape or not? RAINN has a helpful three-part checklist to help determine if what happened to you was rape or not.

 

3) Did both participants agree to engage in sexual conduct?

This area is often the hardest to determine. If physical force or threats were used to coerce someone into having sex, that sexual activity is rape. However, rape often isn't violent. No means no, and silence does not mean yes.

 

Silence does not mean yes. Neither does "I'm not sure."

[FathomFear]

No it wasn't rape, and to all the woman encouraging her that it was shame on you.

 

The definition of "rape" will vary depending on the country you're in, but what the OP described can and would fit the definition of rape used by most civilized countries. Just read the Wiki on it-- link removed

 

The people who are adamantly saying that it's not rape are going by the sensationalized understanding of rape (ie, violent rape) and not the legal defintion of rape. Not all rape involves force, nor does all rape involve one party ignoring a "No". That's what the issue comes down to, and that's why the OP's situation would easily be classified as rape assuming she is stating exactly what happened.

[Lucius]

I definitely agree with you people should speak up and say no. You ask, why is it so much to ask she says no? But along the same lines, why is it so much of a burden for someone to just ASK instead of assuming? I think both people need to play a role here rather than just the receiver having to saying no. Isn't it better to just be safe and make sure the person actually wants to do it?

 

You are right - he SHOULD have required much clearer assent. Hence his oafishness. But the reason the burden of saying "no" rests ultimately on her is this: she can only control her own actions, not his. She cannot wait for him to grow a brain and work out she's not comfortable. He SHOULD do this himself, but she cannot WAIT for it. That's how situations like this arise - waiting for someone else to get a clue. So she must take up her own end of things and speak up. The words "stop" or "no" may for some reason be awkward, but they're no less necessary for that.

 

Actions have a voice. As we say all the time, they sometimes speak louder than words. Kissing and complying are not consent, but they do imply consent. Implying one thing, feeling another, and failing to contradict the former is a recipe for disaster - and one that CAN be averted. In lieu of an otherwise clear refusal (say, a well timed punch to the head), the word "no" is both simple and clear.

[tigger12]

 

This entire thread brings to light the rape culture that exists these days. It all traces back to nutjob feminist idealogy that all women are victims. Give these a read, go through the comments, and go forth setting the record straight:

 

 

I just want to say that I don't think all women are victims and have no control and are helpless. People can say no and people can fight back. I also believe that men can be raped. I don't think all men are out to attack people or take advantage of them. I think mistakes and miscommunications can happen.

 

That's why I just wonder why we can't as a society, especially with someone we don't know, just take 5 seconds (whether male or female) and say, "hey, you okay with this" or "do you want to _____?" It doesn't even have to "break the flow" or be completely not sexy.

[tigger12]

Point well taken (and you articulated it very well). I will think about what you said.

 

As I've said, I really, really think people need to be taught how to be more assertive.

 

The thing is-- she wouldn't be waiting around for him to figure out she's uncomfortable if he had just asked for a yes in the first place and waited for a yes. Sorry to keep going on about this, but I'm just trying to work out why people might be reluctant to just ask for consent. For example, two people meet a party. They are making out, and one person starts to feel like they want to have sex. Why not just ask?

 

I'm not asking that the law work this way. I just think people as individuals could take it upon themselves more often to ask. It would save people from having to be "mind readers." Even if you don't want to consider what happened here rape, I would think we would want to avoid situations like this where someone even has to ask themselves if they were raped & and I think that is one *possible* way. I'm not talking about situations where people thought they wanted it and then changed their mind afterwards, by the way.

 

I'll try to stop taking over this thread now-- I just wanted to offer a different perspective and maybe something to consider.

 

Edit (sorry): Also I just want to say that I don't think kissing implies consent for sex.

[nutz76]

Read further down the page on that link:

 

Was it rape or not? RAINN has a helpful three-part checklist to help determine if what happened to you was rape or not.

 

3) Did both participants agree to engage in sexual conduct?

This area is often the hardest to determine. If physical force or threats were used to coerce someone into having sex, that sexual activity is rape. However, rape often isn't violent. No means no, and silence does not mean yes.

 

Silence does not mean yes. Neither does "I'm not sure."

 

by that logic she raped him as well.

[tigger12]

I'm trying to resist looking at this page since I'm writing a paper, but...

 

OP wrote: "He told me he wanted to have sex." I think that's a pretty clear yes to having sex with her, even if it wasn't preceded by her asking. He wasn't silent. He said he wanted to have sex.

 

Also, thinking more about kissing implying consent to sex, by that logic, wouldn't pushing his hands away from certain body parts imply that she does not want him to have contact there and she does not want to have sex?

[greywolf]

Your post makes a lot of sense, but what if we applied this to men as well? If a man gave an unsure answer about having sex, would anyone here agree that he had been raped? I doubt it.