Thoughts, ramblings

[LAYAAN]

I was still recovering from a bad day and my mom emailed me that the guy's mom is still interested.

This is the chain of events.

1st contact - I don't remember exact details. The guy called and we talked. I didn't have a car then. He said "You drive 4 hours. I'll drive 4 hours. We will meet half way." I emailed him that I don't have a license or a car, so its very difficult for me to change 2 trains and see him at the suggested place, at the given time. Also, it would take me 6 hours (one way) just to go meet him at that place and I'll have to leave within 2 hours to catch a train back otherwise I won't be able to go home that day and the train station is in bad neighborhood. So instead of that, I can pay him half the money and can I request him to come to my place so we could meet? The guy didn't say yes or no. He just vanished.

 

2nd contact - I don't remember the year. He contacted me 1.5 years after the above incidence on a matrimonial website. My mom normally handles that. Honestly, I should not have given him a chance. Really. A man who doesn't have a common courtesy to understand things from another person's perspective, is really not worth my time. I still talked to him because of low self-respect and desperation. I asked him "What happened 1.5 years back?" Him "I don't know what happened. We can continue talking and we can meet." Me "Sure." Again, no contact, no explanation. The guy vanished.

 

3rd contact - A few days ago, his mom got in touch with my mom. "We are still interested. Tell your daughter to call him." My mom called me and conveyed the message. I burst out in anger. I explained what had happened to my mom. She got annoyed.

Mom "What more do you expect? He is coming back, you should give him a chance. Forget about what happened in the past."

Me "Yes, I had left it behind, but all those memories came back now. It shows you a person's character. This guy has serious issues mom. He can't make up his mind. He doesn't seem to know what he wants and he definitely does not come accross as a sincere honest genuine person to me. His actions show you his character flaws and I'm not okay with it. He owes me a reason for his behavior."

After a couple of days Mom "I talked to his mom and shared in subtle words what happened. His mom said 'oh he won't talk like that anymore. Just call him. We are still interested. He doesn't have any misunderstandings about your daughter.'"

Me "Why would he have misunderstanding about me? I wasn't the one to vanish. No one in my shoes would give a 2nd chance to this man. 1st after getting treated this way and 2nd knowing that he was going to marry someone and called off his wedding. What the heck is his mom saying 'He doesn't have any misunderstanding"?

Mom "Look, this is how things in marriage market are. If you are okay with it, here is his phone no. His mom has asked you to call him. Regarding the reason that you are asking, well here is your answer 'His mom said that initially they were looking for a beautiful girl, preferably an engineer. Now their son's age is 36, so they have lowered their expectations, so they are coming back.'"

Me "Wow! what an explanation! I appreciate the honesty, because that really is the truth, but I am not up for it. What I'm hearing is that he is settling for me. He is lowering his standards to find me acceptable. So, initially I wasn't desirable enough. My photos weren't beautiful enough. Yes, I'm not an engineer either. How is he gonna overcome that? Today he might feel okay, but his heart will crave for what he really wanted the girl to be. I can tell you that after hearing all this, I feel like I'm some lowly girl that he is doing a favor by thinking that he finds me acceptable. I'll kill myself than to marry someone like him. Really. What you just told me mom, I appreciate your honesty, but it hurt me deep inside. What is so bad with me? If the guy didn't find me attractive first, that's the truth. Only time doesn't change that. There was no interaction during this time. I can't marry someone like him knowing that the guy is settling for me. I can't lose my self-respect like that. May be I'm destined to stay single for the rest of my life like this. I'll try to live a good life on my own and if things get really bad, I'll kill myself. You don't have to worry about me, but I just can't bring myself to a point where I can look at men like him with respect, forget about falling in love. I want to be able to love my husband, I want to know that he is happy with me."

My mom was annoyed to hear me talk this 'garbage'.

Mom "Well, if you have made up your mind and now hold a grudge in your heart, yes, you are right, you shouldn't see him."

I hung up in frustration. Rushed to the restroom and let it all out.

 

I thought to myself, why am I angry and frustrated -

1) I feel mistreated. You move on with no explanation (I get that) and you come back and hope that I'll treat you as a fresh candidate, like nothing ever happened between us. You owe me an explanation for why you decided to leave and also why you are coming back now.

2) There was no sincerity, accountability. There was more of an arrogance and sense of entitlement.

3) My mom doesn't get me. She doesn't defend me. She thinks lowly of me. She thinks that I should have no expectations because I have no value in marriage market because 1) I'm not beautiful, I don't have fair skin, 2) I am not an engineer, 3) I don't have a job. So basically with such low caliber I really can't expect anything good to happen to me. I should just go with whoever says yes to me. My mom thinks that I'm a useless person because I didn't pursue engineering.

4) Since I've always tried to seek my mom's approval and have hardly gotten it, I tend to look at myself from her perspective and pity myself. If my mom approves of something then that must be good, if she doesn't then that must be bad. I've tried fruitlessly my entire life to win her approval. She is much fair than me (and honestly I don't envy that). So, I'm not beautiful enough. Well, I didn't ask for this skin color. As if things were not bad already, my not going to an engineering school really lowered my value in her eyes. I have been struggling with that for last 10 years.

5) What do you expect from men in arranged marriage market when your own parents treat you this way? What can you expect from a complete total stranger? Nothing. I'm so hurt and angry that if the guy calls me, I'll hang up or snap at him. Why is it hard to get someone who is decent, honest, and sincere and likes you for who you are? Why is it so hard? Being treated with respect and dignity, is it too much to ask for? You have to put up with a lot of nonsense in professional life. You have to make it work with unreasonable people, butt-kiss, put on a mask, put on a fake smile and push through the day. If you can't come home to your husband and feel secure, feel like you belong there, feel like he has your back, feel like you have a friend then what's the whole point of getting married? (especially for me, since I'm not sure about kids and I'm not looking for the man to be making millions so I could party) If he is going to suck life of you, treat you like dirt, why get married to someone like this? Where is accountability, where is love, respect, humility and kindheartedness? If you are not like that to your spouse who the heck are you gonna be that way with? your mistress? Well, that really tells you what the world has come down to.

[LAYAAN]

This all tires me, frustrates me, annoys me, angers me, and gets the best of me. I don't want to feel this way. I want to be able to see the person for who he is and say "thank you, god bless you" and move on. Simply move on... not create threads here trying to figure out why someone does something that my brain can't reason or justify. I should just accept that I'm a good person and its completely understandable to be treated with respect, dignity, kindness. If a man doesn't have those qualities, that is not excusable. I should simply thank God for showing me this side of a man's personality and simply move on. Find forgiveness in my heart for the guy, forgive myself for getting angry, and not try to look for justification for wanting something more that he is unable to provide. I should not even try to make others look at things from my perspective. I should simply trust my understanding and if something doesn't feel right, move on. That's the best thing I can do for myself to keep my sanity while so much nonsense is happening already in my professional life. I should not fight myself, I should not fight with my mom, I should not argue with anyone from ENA either.

[annie24]

ugh, i am sorry tinu. i don't think your mom thinks that lowly of you. it just sounds like she really wants you to get married and she thinks that this guy is as decent as his mother is. your mom hasn't ever met or interacted with this man. but it sounds like his mom is nice? don't take things to heart.

 

why do you have to call him? if he is still interested, he should call you! it sounds like his mother is pressuring him as well.

[penelope13]

Tinu, I am sorry you are going through this. But I can only reiterate myself: you possibly cannot handle the stress of your PhD at the same time as trying to find a husband. You should really try to make a stand for yourself and put all interactions with men on hold, focus on getting your PhD done as soon as possible. Yes, your mother won't like it, but she is not the one living your life, she has never been in the same situations, so she really can't judge how stressful getting a PhD can be.

 

You cannot possible define your life by trying to find approval from a parent. You have to be your own person. Maybe in the end you have the same goals as your parents want, but it's you who has to come to this conclusion by yourself.

 

Currently you are overwhelmed with too many things and you don't have the energy to bring any of those 'projects' to a successful end. Thus I highly recommend to do one thing after the other instead of everything at once.

 

Since you are so close to the end of your PhD I think there is not much point to think about if you should finish or not;right now you only have the option to finish it. Thus this should be your priority. The less stressed you are about other things, the easier it will be to cope/ handle with the difficulties with your PI etc. Once your thesis is done you can revisit your ideas about marriage and looking for a suitable husband.

 

Do not make the mistake to marry someone just for the sake of being married and pleasing your mother. Being miserable by yourself is not fun. But being miserable with someone else can be a true hell.

[LAYAAN]

ugh, i am sorry tinu. i don't think your mom thinks that lowly of you. it just sounds like she really wants you to get married and she thinks that this guy is as decent as his mother is. your mom hasn't ever met or interacted with this man. but it sounds like his mom is nice? don't take things to heart.

Why do you have to call him? if he is still interested, he should call you! it sounds like his mother is pressuring him as well.

Thank you for your post. I appreciate the support and kind words. May be you are right. My mom is just in a great hurry to get me married. Well, my parents have met the guy. He came with his parents to my house for a brief visit. How much can you tell from a brief visit? Not much at all. His mom probably doesn't know all the details. Yes, I'm trying not to take things to heart and keep moving. The truth is though Annie, we all want acceptance and we all want to know that we are okay, someone finds us desirable. The problem is I've been seeking it from these idiot men who themselves have no sense or respect for anything but money.

Yes, exactly my Q. Why am I calling him? Is the guy interested? then he should call me. Honestly I'm glad that he has not called because I will tell him what I think of him and I don't sugarcoat my words in non-professional world. I've had enough with his vanishing and coming back and worse "we are lowering our expectations" (?) Is this woman even thinking when she uttered those words? So, you are already telling me that I'm low and you are stepping down to meet me. How can I court someone who says you are low. The mom is an idiot too.

[LAYAAN]

Thank you Penny. I really appreciate your response. You are right. I'm not looking. I'm really trying to stay focused, even though it hurts to know that I can't find love, I'm single. But you just stole my words. I told myself 'well, first of all, I won't live a miserable life, but if I'm miserable, I'd rather be single and miserable than be married and dreading coming home to an arrogant husband. Why bother getting married then? As is I've run out of age to find a decent man (according to Indian belief system). So rushing is not gonna help. I just want to be able to arrive at a place where I can stand in front of my mom and say "I don't care what you think of me. I think of myself as a good, honest, hard-working person." I really hope at least 1 day before I die, I can honestly hold my head high and say I'm no longer worried about what my parents think of me and if they approve of my decision.

[LAYAAN]

I had a personal training session today. My trainer said that she is already seeing some changes in my face and arm and tummy. I'm so happy to hear that.

Wednesday is my weighing and body measurement session. I am curious to see what the weighing scale shows. For once before I die I want to wear a 2 piece swim suit and be proud of myself for the way I look in it.

[marshmlofluff]

Possibly the arranged route isn't a good fit for you.

 

In the Western world, yes, you risk some major heartbreak and lots of wasted time...I can't deny that. But on the other hand, in that world 31 is *not* too old to meet a good man, you will find men who are open to not having kids, who don't drink, who think a PhD is an asset, etc.

 

I live in the middle of nowhere, and if within a year of moving here I was able to find two men who were fundamentally compatible with me (although things did not work with my ex, he was not at all a bad man), I imagine you will find ten. My present BF doesn't drink, respects my values, is even vegetarian (I am not), is looking for an LTR, etc. He doesn't ask "oh why did you do a PhD?"--in fact I think it is one of the main reasons he likes me.)

 

I have not yet had things work out with anyone, but I found that I am much happier failing outside the arranged system than I probably would have been succeeding within it. And I found that just becoming more open-minded about what routes I was willing to go made me feel much better, because I felt like I had much more control over my life, and it gave me more possible opportunities.

 

Keep your chin up.

[icarus27]

I came to read a few posts on this thread Tinu, following the story of the man who appears and disappears.

 

After reading your post # 165 above, I have to say, I nearly had tears in my own eyes. What you say is so, so true. We are ordinary people, trying to live our lives with some integrity, some dignity.

[LAYAAN]

Thank you Icraus for posting here. Thank you for being supportive.

Well, I just want to run my race, face my challenges, and most importantly not turn into one of these people because of the experiences I've had.

[LAYAAN]

I tried a new way of munching on last night.

Brought some fresh, raw (not frozen) Cauliflower and Broccoli. Roasted it in preheated oven at 375 F for 25 min with some ground pepper and salt. It loses its rawness, turns a little sweeter, is still crispy to chew.

Its cheap and easy to make and healthy.

My trainer told me that I can eat is as much as I like. I tend to eat until I feel full. So, this helps.

[LAYAAN]

Thank you Marsh for your post. I see what you are saying and yes I agree. I just can't let the fear of dating an american man go. I need to work on that.

[marshmlofluff]

Thank you Marsh for your post. I see what you are saying and yes I agree. I just can't let the fear of dating an american man go. I need to work on that.

 

It took me till I was 28 or so. I am not saying it isn't something to be afraid of. But it is just a different type of scary, and being open to it at least gives you a few more options. I guess (at least for me) the more open-minded you are, the better you feel about your chances of meeting someone. There were five female Indian PhD students in grad school with me (some raised here, others raised in India.) Not one single of them went the arranged route...all five very happily married American or British men (mostly other PhD students, but not always) who were exceptionally nice, and even learned Hindi, etc.

 

That suggests to me that the arranged route works well if you are very traditional. Otherwise as an educated professional woman, your market value is most likely higher on other, less rigid markets.

[LAYAAN]

Yes, you are right about being more open minded and stretching my boundaries. Also, what you shared about Indian PhD girls going the non-arranged route... yes, I have heard this before. There was a research associate in adjacent lab. She is Indian. She told me the same thing. She told me to completely stop talking to men in arranged marriage market which I didn't follow. I've been having second thoughts about my fireman ex, now. Not sure if he will take me back. Also, I'm not sure if I should go back.

[marshmlofluff]

Yes, you are right about being more open minded and stretching my boundaries. Also, what you shared about Indian PhD girls going the non-arranged route... yes, I have heard this before. There was a research associate in adjacent lab. She is Indian. She told me the same thing. She told me to completely stop talking to men in arranged marriage market which I didn't follow. I've been having second thoughts about my fireman ex, now. Not sure if he will take me back. Also, I'm not sure if I should go back.

 

Well...it sounded like you left because you were unhappy with him and tried your best but things weren't changing. He didn't sound like he was on the same page as you were regarding marriage, either. I think you did the right thing in leaving, and it was brave of you to do that. I'd be very careful going back; what I have found is that people do not change. But if you genuinely feel like you are having second thoughts, maybe you should talk to him and see where he stands.

 

But in my experience, when you date in the non-arranged market, you need to be even more careful that you are personally compatible, because you do not have a cultural background or values in common.

 

Let me leave aside for the moment the question of whether you should be looking at all right now, or whether you should wait for your PhD. What I would suggest is that if you continue to look for someone, instead of trying to return to your ex, you take out a few ads on some US dating sites just to see what is out there. You have absolutely nothing to lose--many of these sites are free. Just leave it up for a few weeks/months and see who writes to you, and if there is anyone you feel might be a fit. You will have to be careful--it is a lot less safe and clean than the matrimonial sites; there are a lot of guys out there who are out for sex, etc. But I promise you this much: nobody will ask you how much you make or why you did a PhD, and nobody's mom will say things like "oh, we wanted a beautiful engineer but now our son is 36 so you are OK too."

 

There are even some Indian guys on these sites, but they will probably approach you in a more Western-style way.

[LAYAAN]

Hello Marsh,

I was wondering if I could send you a message. I can't send you a message on ENA. I wanted to ask you about your take on something.

[marshmlofluff]

Hello Marsh,

I was wondering if I could send you a message. I can't send you a message on ENA. I wanted to ask you about your take on something.

 

Hi Tinu! Is it the geckos?

 

I think the guy is just a geek...it can get annoying but it's probably harmless. I guess you'd have to get to know him a bit to know.

[marshmlofluff]

Btw you should be able to message me now.

[LAYAAN]

Hello Marsh, thank you for your reply.

No, its something different. That gecko thing is silly. Him and I are not dating, so I'm not too worried about that.

[LAYAAN]

Btw you should be able to message me now.

Thank you, I don't see an icon by your name but I'll try sending a message.

[LAYAAN]

Hello Marsh,

This is something that I wanted to ask. You suggested to be open-minded about considering non-Indian men with similar values for dating. I have been thinking about it. My very short last relationship with the fireman white guy didn't work out for certain reasons. I was uncomfortable with (what I grossly categorize) 3 areas - 1) education 2) family background 3) lifestyle.

 

I was wondering what suggestion you would have for me. Please understand that I'm not judging anyone. I'm only stating my feelings, expectations, challenges, and confusion since I don't know how to steer my way through. I'm not trying to state what is right or wrong. I'm not trying to put anyone down.

 

1) Education - I'm not looking for someone with a doctoral degree. But like I mentioned on another thread, education is something I value in myself and my partner. I'm attracted to brains. Unfortunately there is no quick and direct way to measure it than to look at how much education one has. Degree does not equal competence. I know that. Degree does not equal smartness, I know that. Once you talk to a person and continue interacting with them, you may learn that they are really smart or otherwise and that doesn't have to match up to their education, I get that. My ex had completed high-school. I was uncomfortable to know that he didn't have a desire to study ahead. What I'm looking for is a guy who values education and at least has a professional degree. Am I going wrong somewhere? When you look around yourself, it appears to me that fewer Americans go for higher education, whereas with Indians its opposite. Most middle-class Indians have a professional degree these days. One of the reasons, I've been putting myself through the sad process of arranged marriage is this. Finding an educated Indian man is easier than finding an equally educated American man who also wants to get married.

2) Family background - The point is not to brag about my family. I come from a normal, middle-class family. My parents are educated and well-to-do. I normally have considered men who have similar family background as I do. With the fireman guy, as I got to know his family background, it started to bother me. His parents were living together and had kids before marriage (not saying that its wrong, I just didn't know how my ex felt about getting married). They were not educated. His brothers and sisters barely did high-school. His friends are getting some associate degree. So, overall I felt that we were raised in very different surroundings and it certainly has a strong impact on my thinking, I'm not sure about him, but I thought that was a factor in our breakup.

3) Lifestyle - Again, the point is not to brag about my lifestyle. I don't drink/smoke/eat meat. I am not a big spender. I'm quite shy, reserved type, not a party girl at all. With my ex, even though he is anti-social, he likes to drink, was looking to brew his own beer at home, is a meat eater. Again its not bad, but I realized that if we had to get married and live together, living with something like that on a day-to-day basis would be hard for me.

 

I had serious doubts even if my ex would agree to marry me within a year of dating, with these differences if the marriage would stay put. When I shared minimum information about my ex with my parents, my mom was unhappy and she said that if you are willing to get together with someone who drinks/eats meat on a regular basis (i.e. more than just social drinking/meat eating) then why not go for educated Indian men at least? why not go for someone from similar socio-economic stratum? Why are you willing to take a risk when so many fundamental areas of life are different between you and the fireman guy? I understand what she is saying. When it comes to marriage, people hesitate to take chances. Mostly people try to play it safe. I feel confused.

 

So, I realized that finding a non-Indian man with a similar lifestyle, value and belief system is very difficult for me. What is your opinion? What advice would you have for me? Have you faced similar challenges?

Thank you.

[marshmlofluff]

I am a professor so obviously I value higher education; I cannot see dating someone without a bachelor's degree. I do not care about education beyond that, but actually it is a moot point as the guys who have wanted to date me have all been educated at the graduate level. The first guy I dated (Indian) was a PhD; the second was also a PhD, the third was a lawyer, and the present guy has a Master's in engineering. If you are educated yourself you will generally attract educated guys regardless of culture. The problem I have found is that many super-educated men (accross cultures) are commitment-allergic, for whatever reason.

 

 

 

Yes, I have noticed this too. The last two guys I have dated, their families have been absolute messes...you do not find that often in Indian men.

 

Despite the mess he grew up in, the present boyfriend (like Barack Obama) seems to have turned out to be a very normal, sane, stable guy.

 

I also am a little uneasy about it, but as I get to know him I am not finding any huge major issues; his brother is quite happily married, both are educated to the graduate level, and I think my BF just basically wants to create a stable life. Pretty amazing given that for three years as teenagers they lived without heat or running water. I just keep telling myself it is who a man is that matters, not what he is or where he came from...he couldn't help those things. In some sense it is really incredibly impressive what he overcame, and that makes me like him more.

 

 

 

I have the same exact values you do except I grew up non-veg. I first thought "oh, what non-Indian guy is going to put up with me, let alone share my values?" But I have now dated three non-Indian guys whose values largely matched mine, with a little give and take...oddly enough my present BF is strict vegetarian, whereas I am not.

 

Things did not work out with the first two (the first did not want kids, and the second...well, he was a bit weird) but both were very good men and I do not regret the interactions. Regardless of where things go with the present guy, he is also a very good man and (I think) interested in a long-term relationship.

 

So there are more men out there than you might think who share these values; if I can find one or two even in a rural area, near a major metropolitan area you should have even less trouble. I think especially if you are dating cross-culturally you should take particular care to make sure the guy is both a basic fit for you and also very open-minded.

 

In fact people who tend to have one of those traits (say, not drinking) tend to automatically have others that you are looking for.

[LAYAAN]

Thank you Marsh for your reply. I appreciate it.

[LAYAAN]

I haven't really been feeling well for last week or so. Cough, cold, throat irritation, body ache, feeling liteheaded... well, I took it easy yesterday and today. Went to lab, submitted my corrections in addition to my PI's corrections. I realized that 2 major corrections were same in his and my version. So, thats good.

I woke up just now took a nap and it hit me that I have been relaxing too much and have not started studying for my boards. I don't have any energy when I come home so tired from lab everyday. Yes, running an experiment is physically and mentally demanding. Putting the data together and writing is still mentally exhausting. Am I the only one? Most kids at my school are pursuing only PhD. They are not studying for anything else along side, at least not that I know of. I have pushed myself hard and have been able to accomplish little bit. I'm thankful for that. But when it comes to studying for my boards, I feel like a lump of mass sitting in my tummy. I have been finding activities like cooking, cleaning, making new dishes whatever and I realized today that I've been just running away from getting in the gear to study. Procrastinating is not going to help me. I have to get into action. Finding time to relax outside PhD program is tough enough. Now, I'm also having to study, so we will see how that goes. I need to start though, getting into full swing takes time. I'll have to do multiple revisions to feel confident and take boards and pass in 1st attempt.

Don't know why I've been lazying. My friend says that I had to relax after completing internship. I can't just go on and on without relaxing and letting myself recuperate and get ready for a new load, which makes sense. Well, now I've house work waiting for me and that is how my study time is being stolen again. Time management is important and I seem to be failing at it.

[LAYAAN]

Its strange. I miss my ex... very much... I can't focus on my PhD or my pharmacy studies and to make matters worse, board of pharmacy sent me an email today to go ahead and book a test date. I did and instead of feeling pressured to study, I've been wondering if I made a mistake by letting my ex go. I don't know why I feel this way. I talked to my parents and my mom asked me again to come back to India. I really want to come home to someone. I am tired of being alone.