Thoughts, ramblings

[annie24]

i totally see what you are saying. though with 12 months left on her PhD, i don't see how this additional stress is helping her in any way. it seems the marriage issue is distracting from her PhD, and the PhD issue is distracting her from the getting married issue. 2 difficult things to do at the same time. i see what you mean about getting the 'leftovers' at this stage and trying to find someone decent. but i don't see what good all of this stress is doing her, if anything, it is harming her.

 

granted, i don't understand the indian system quite so well, but maybe once she has a phd and a stable job with a good paycheck, she will be in a better position for the arranged marriage thing?

[LAYAAN]

Thank you for your post.

I didn't know that you are of south Asian origin as well. Well, good luck to you!

[annie24]

lol. maybe you guys can be a match?

[Bergamot]

i totally see what you are saying. though with 12 months left on her PhD, i don't see how this additional stress is helping her in any way. it seems the marriage issue is distracting from her PhD, and the PhD issue is distracting her from the getting married issue. 2 difficult things to do at the same time. i see what you mean about getting the 'leftovers' at this stage and trying to find someone decent. but i don't see what good all of this stress is doing her, if anything, it is harming her.

 

granted, i don't understand the indian system quite so well, but maybe once she has a phd and a stable job with a good paycheck, she will be in a better position for the arranged marriage thing?

 

I agree with you that it is only causing her enormous stress. The best course of action for her is to completely focus on her Ph.D and get it done with first, like you said. My post was more about explaining why she feels so stressed about getting married. She knows that with her age going up with each day it is going to be more and more difficult to find a decent man. But it is only going to make her stressed and not be able to focus on her education as well. So the smart thing for her would be to focus on only one thing at a time. And that one thing for now would be completing Ph.D

 

Pardon my directness but even if she finishes her Ph.D and gets a job it will still be difficult to get married. Again it is because of the poor quality Indian men that are left around. They are most likely to be intimidated by her degree and backoff. If a guy asks her about loans and salary on a first date imagine what he is most likely to do once he knows she is a doctorate?

[LAYAAN]

I simply can't rationalize why I'm so frantic and wanting to get married. I really don't know. I am trying to find an answer to that myself.

Annie, I appreciate your patience in reading my posts. Sometimes I feel like I'm just saying same thing over n over n I still don't make any sense.

I'll give you an example that may help you understand why I might be chasing marriage. You know how some people that are hurting very badly inside, cut themselves physically on wrist, on leg, with a blade, knife to take away that hurt in their heart momentarily ? I think I might be doing that to myself with this whole marriage thing. I think, I'm overwhelmed with school and additional studies and I shouldn't be thinking about men and definitely not something as serious as marriage when I myself don't know which country I'll stay in a year, 2 years from now. Yet, I go play the past incidets in my mind over n over, feel angry and bitter. Its like I am trying to find some mental escape with this marriage thing or I'm trying to entertain myself with it. Don't know what it is. Whatever it is, its not bearing fruit. So, it needs to stop.

[LAYAAN]

Bergamot,

If you are of south Asian origin, can you please answer one Q that I can't answer for the life of me?

- Why are most Indian men asking me finance related Qs on a 1st date?

- How exactly do they want me to answer these?

- What kinda answers are they looking for?

- Can you suggest a decent way to handle these Qs?

Also, is it okay for me to think "These are highly personal and also technical Qs. They don't need to meet me in person to ask these Qs."

 

I would really appreciate if you can throw light on this area that has been a centerpoint of most dates (or business meetings I should say) that I've had.

 

Thank you

[annie24]

well, it makes sense to me, because if you are trying to arrange a marriage, you want to figure out what income bracket they are in, and how good your lifestyle would be. it makes perfect sense to me that they are trying to figure out how long you will be in school, what are your debts, what is your earning power, etc....

[LAYAAN]

Alright, so does it make sense for me to ask them these Qs on a 1st date as well? Why do men react with hostile replies, giving lame excuses and hanging up on me when I try to ask them these Qs in return? Why do they call me a gold-digger? How are these Qs different from women asking men 'Do you own a house? How much is their house worth? What kinda car you drive?' and men hate such women.

Also, how does it make sense to ask these Qs in person instead of asking them over phone (since response to these Qs are a deciding factor in whether or not they want to go ahead). Whether they meet me in person or not, whether I look pretty or ugly, these answers are not gonna change, right?

 

What should I do if I want to avoid such Qs on a 1st date? (Don't misunderstand, I don't want to avoid giving true information, but discussing these Qs on a 1st date kills all the attraction for me. Just like men looking for love would not want a woman asking them directly what kinda car you drive, how much money you make?)

[Bergamot]

Bergamot,

If you are of south Asian origin, can you please answer one Q that I can't answer for the life of me?

- Why are most Indian men asking me finance related Qs on a 1st date?

- How exactly do they want me to answer these?

- What kinda answers are they looking for?

- Can you suggest a decent way to handle these Qs?

Also, is it okay for me to think "These are highly personal and also technical Qs. They don't need to meet me in person to ask these Qs."

 

I would really appreciate if you can throw light on this area that has been a centerpoint of most dates (or business meetings I should say) that I've had.

 

Thank you

 

Sure, I'll be glad to answer them.

 

First, take heart in the fact that when it comes to Arranged Marriage System both Men and Women face these type of questions. If a guy in India wants to get married through Arranged Marriage System he needs to prove that he can support the girl right? Since they do not know each other before (as in - they never dated) the girl and her parents are compelled to ask questions related to his education, salary, earning potential etc. The girl and her parents are making sure that the guy can support her. As you very well know, in India the guy works and the girl stays at home taking care of children. Things are changing now but still the expectation is pretty much the same. My friends have horror stories of how they were surrounded by the girl's parents and other family members and bombarded with these questions:

 

1) What is your degree in? (if its not Computer Science the guy is screwed right here)

 

2) How much do you earn? (shock)

 

3) Do you have a Green Card? (if he doesn't he loses his chance by at least 50% right here)

 

4) Do you own a home?

 

5) What is the guarantee that you will have continue to have a job when the US economy is in recession??

 

6) Since it is a recession what if you lose your job? How can you take care and support my daughter??

 

One of my friends, a very good guy, was turned down simply because he is still living in an apartment here in the US and is not a home owner. My brother lives in India and my mom is struggling to get him married. He is just about to hit 40 and there are no prospects in sight. The first question the girls back there ask is "Are you a Software Engineer?". He is not. And that is the end of it. So yea.. women are cruel too when it comes to this.

 

Thankfully I am not seeking a woman through the Arranged Marriage System. At least for now. I would like to meet some one, date them, fall in love, and get married. Like the American system. I am open to dating and getting married to non-Indian women as well. I have lived in this country for 10 years and things like Arranged Marriages are a sour idea to me. May be if nothing works out then I will also turn to the matrimonial websites haha

 

To answer your questions. You are now in the USA and facing a situation an Indian guy would face in India with the girl. That's all there is to it. Its the same thing. The guys that you are meeting here are not looking for a date or romance. They are looking to get married. They know that it is difficult to get by in the USA with just 1 income. So they are being up front and asking you about your earning potential. And the moment they hear something other than Software an internal switch flips. They know that it is difficult for Indians to get jobs in non-software related areas. I myself am a Mechanical Engineer. But I am now working in the Software industry because I realized that getting a job in Mech Engg is virtually impossible if you are not a citizen. I came to the States to pursue M.S. in Mech Engg. After one semester I gave up and switched degrees.

 

You are feeling uncomfortable with those questions because you want to get to know the person little bit, talk, spend time, develop things, and then get married. Like a semi-American dating. You go to meet an Indian guy hoping that it is going to be a pleasant date and instead get shocked when the questions are asked. You need to understand and accept the fact that you are not going on a date. You are going to meet a man that is planning to get married via the Arranged Marriage system. I cannot go to a girl's house in India to talk about marriage and then get shocked when they ask me how much I make per year. My expectations would be out of place. You need to decide if you really want to find a man through this system. It looks like you are extremely frustrated and angry when those questions come out. May be you should try some Indian dating sites (there are some good ones) instead of Indian matrimonial sites. It might work out for you. But if a guy does ask you those questions you can politely say "Sorry but I am not comfortable discussing those topics now. I would like to get to know you better as a person and that's why I am here". Just don't feel stressed that they are asking those questions. It is fruitless.

 

Also understand that Americans are no different than us when it comes to marriage. They also want to know about the financial details before getting married. But the difference though is they have the system of Dating where there is an opportunity for love and romance and courtship. And then when it gets serious that's where the financial aspects come in. Most American women do not like it if a man takes them out on a date and does not offer to pay. Why? It is an indication of things to come in the future. He is not a provider. Just take a look at the number of threads in the Dating section and you will see so many threads about this topic. One of my best friends is an American girl. Recently she went on a date with a guy but did not like him. I asked her why and she said "he is financially not stable"

 

I hope I have answered some (if not all) of your questions. But if you have more feel free to ask me.

[penelope13]

Tinu, I am going to be upfront with you: you are still at the sames spot that you were a year ago. If I was under the impression that you were using eNA as a means to vent al your anger, frustration, hurt - fair enough. Yet so far you never come back and let us in if you made any kind of progress how you are dealing with your situation. I understand it's complicated and you are facing some challenges that most people can't relate to.

However inactivity is never the best option to truly make a change in your life.

 

Why are you not considering professional help? At this point it's pretty clear that writing here is not sufficient, you do not have enough friends to rely on and your mom, though she loves you very much is also not able to give you the tools that you will need in order to make a significant change.

 

Every day that you decide not to take action is another day lost to start the rest of your life, a better life, a happier life. You have explained multiple times that success in the arranged marriage system decreases with age. Thus with every day that you decide not to turn your life around you are sabotaging the very thing that you are so desperately hoping for.

 

There is nothing wrong with having to admit that you can't solve your problems by yourself and that you need help from outside, maybe even professional help.

 

But you are the one who has to make that choice, since it's your life and the responsibility is yours. Nobody will be able to magically make all your problems go away, even if you were to get married tomorrow. Look at your parents: marriage is not a guarantee for happiness, you actually have to work for it, being single or being married.

 

You are not responsible for your father's choices and behavior, but you are responsible for your own.

 

One other comment: do not go in with the attitude that whoever is left after the age of 30 in the marriage system is not a good person. a) because if you truly believe so, it's just a waste of time and you shouldn't be doing it. b) because if you believe yourself to be a good person, there must be other good person who for some reason have not found their partner yet.

 

Something else to think about: make a choice about your PhD (regardless of what you want to do about marriage): do you really want to see this through? A PhD might not be the right thing for you. Forcing yourself to go through with it might not be the right answer. Yes I am aware that nearly everyone struggles and doubts while doing a PhD, but having done one myself I always encourage people to think hard about why they want a PhD and if it is the right thing for them to have in their future life. If there is no advantage in having this title in what you want to do later in life, don't force it.

 

If you do decide that you want the PhD: then do that and nothing else.Try to do one thing after the other that you want to accomplish rather than everything at once.

[LAYAAN]

Hi Penny,

Sure, you can be upfront. No problem with it.

I'll try to answer to your post

Professional help -

1) I'm on a pill to reduce anxiety. So far it has worked well. I feel the difference. I'm not as anxious, stressed, agitated as I was before.

2) In late 2009 I was seeing a lifecoach, but my experience with him was not good. I felt heavily judged and criticized. He frowned on me when I said that my problem with my then BF (the fireman) was that he wasn't educated, he had a different lifestyle from mine, his family background was very different from mine. My lifecoach didn't take it well when I said that I wasn't open to dating anyone who has kids (my lifecoach has kids and is divorced). I told him from the get go that I was there to seek help as I was confused so don't expect me to have answers. I'm looking for guidance and help. As a result of these and more such experiences I decided to stop seeing him.

3) I'm seen regularly by a psychiatrist, but it is mostly regarding tracking how the pill is working and adverse effects if any.

4) I do have a psychologist, but he has a non-interventional approach. So, I don't prefer to see him.

 

Currently, I'm in a financial crunch. I'll explain why it is so. I mentioned before on this board that I got into a car accident. I was walking and was hit by a moving car. As a result, I am battling with multiple injuries. My school has allowed me to continue getting medical care if I pay the copay. I have appointed a lawyer and the case is not yet settled since we do not even know complete injuries yet. As a result, I'm paying the copay out of my pocket.

 

I'm still looking for a lifecoach. If I find one, I'll be happy to join.

 

When I was writing a post here though, I realized that I was going around the same mountain. I agree with you.

[LAYAAN]

I think I have unrealistic expectations when it comes to getting married in arranged marriage market. I have come to realize that. People on ENA (regular readers of my posts), my parents have been constantly telling me to stop looking for love in arranged marriage market. It may happen or it may never happen. I think, what I have been thinking was that if I'm not asking these Qs, they should not ask me these Qs as well. That approach doesn't work here. You can do whatever you want to do, they will do whatever they want to do. You can't stop them. If you don't like their approach, move on. Find someone else or get out of the arranged marriage process altogether. Next time onwards, I hope I won't complain about finance-related Qs. I really won't. There is no point. I am wearing myself out. I'm wearing others out. Nobody wins.

[marshmlofluff]

*nod* As you know, I have had experiences in both worlds. There are more non-Indian men than you might think who have values that are a match for someone from India (or at least, will tolerate those values.) I would not shut that road out entirely.

 

Just be honest and up front about what it is you are looking for, even if it seems your criteria narrow the pool down to zero. I just met a sweet hazel-eyed pilot who does not drink, is vegetarian (actually I am not vegetarian, so the fact that he is is a bit annoying ) and most probably will be tolerant of the fact that I am conservative about sex--although I have not yet had the nerve to broach that subject directly, I've hinted enough that I think he won't be surprised. It didn't take me that long to meet him, either.

 

I have no idea where things are going with him...maybe I will just get my heart shredded again. But at least our core values match. Regardless of whether things work or not, I feel much more comfortable with the interaction and pace than being barraged with questions like "why did you do a PhD?" on the first phone call.

 

I have seen many of my professional Indian and Indian-American women friends marry, and all of them have had more success with the non-arranged route. I do not say that it will necessarily work better for you, but I am also saying that maybe you might consider pursuing both.

[LAYAAN]

Hi Marsh,

Yes, I agree. I do not label American men as sex-hungry drunkards. In fact, I would venture to say that Indian men that have come here for school/work are way ahead of an average American man in every area except being honest and working hard.

My most recent ex (the fireman) is a white guy. He is 28-29 something and has had only 3 gfs so far. We were going out for almost 4 months, never had sex. He never even asked me nor expressed bitterness, resentment that he wasn't getting any from me (ofcourse, we met through a common friend and she made it clear to him what my beliefs are about sex before marriage).

I'm very glad to hear that you have met someone who seems to have similar values as you do. That's very good. I hope that things work out. We know now that there is always a possibility that things won't work out in romantic relationships. They are not blood relations afterall. Well, again people abondon blood relations also at times. So, what I'm saying is you evaluate the person to the best of your ability, keep a cool head, do your best, apply the lessons you've learned from the previous relationships and keep faith. If things work out and if both of you are happy, great. If not, things weren't guranteed anyways, be thankful for the experience, move on. I wish you all the success.

On a side note, my ex's best friend is same age as my ex. He confided in our friend (who is like a sister to all these bachelor men who goes women-hunting for these men that he has never had a gf. He has no experience with any woman, but when all these boys hired a stripper for someone's bachelor party, my ex's best friend asked her if he could touch her breasts and thats the only experience he has with women. So, yes, I understand what you are saying.

Hey Marsh, were you also asked those stupid Qs any time? "Why did you get a PhD?" that is so retarted. I really don't understand why people ask retrospective Qs. Talk about now, talk about future. And I'm okay if they are genuinely trying to get to know you better and are asking you Qs because of that, but more often than not, they are not. Most of these men feel that they can ask anything so just let their mouths run wild and lose.

[marshmlofluff]

Hey Marsh, were you also asked those stupid Qs any time? "Why did you get a PhD?" that is so retarted. I really don't understand why people ask retrospective Qs. Talk about now, talk about future. And I'm okay if they are genuinely trying to get to know you better and are asking you Qs because of that, but more often than not, they are not. Most of these men feel that they can ask anything so just let their mouths run wild and lose.

 

Yes--nobody has asked how much $$ I make, but people do say stupid things like (with contempt) "so why did you get a PhD in " or "well if you plan on moving, why did you buy a house?"

 

Someone questioning my judgment like that on the first phone call = instant dealbreaker. Yes, I know Indian people are less diplomatic as a culture, but that doesn't mean I like it or can deal with it. If somebody starts talking like that, I don't talk to the person again.

 

I've "met someone" means I met him and we had one visit and one proper date, and he seems interested and is coming by again on Monday. Goodness knows where it will go or not--I am terrified, honestly, and so tired of being hurt. But the point is that men like him do exist. So be open-minded, and open-hearted. You can focus your search on Indian men if you feel they are a better match generally, but don't strictly rule out men who are not Indian, and don't lose heart.

[LAYAAN]

Thank you for your detailed and honest reply. I really appreciate it.

I see that you have enlisted the Qs that the girl's parents and (may be) the girls in arranged marriage ask boys. What should I say... I have no words. I don't know what happened to the idea of 'building life together'.

[Bergamot]

In fact, I would venture to say that Indian men that have come here for school/work are way ahead of an average American man in every area except being honest and working hard.

 

Tinu, please don't do this anymore. You have thrashed Indian men enough! In almost all of your threads you have had only negative things to say about us. I understand that you have had rough times with these guys but please please do not lump us all together. As some one that came to USA, completed MS with so much struggle, and now working and looking to meet a special girl it hurts me to keep reading again and again how we are all so screwed up. May be the guys that you met are, but not all of them are bad. There are LOT of good guys out there. Trust me on this one!!

[annie24]

^^^ yes, i agree. my new coworker came to graduate school from india. He is a real sweetheart, very hard working and intelligent and nice. you can't lump people together.

[LAYAAN]

Tinu, please don't do this anymore. You have thrashed Indian men enough! In almost all of your threads you have had only negative things to say about us. I understand that you have had rough times with these guys but please please do not lump us all together. As some one that came to USA, completed MS with so much struggle, and now working and looking to meet a special girl it hurts me to keep reading again and again how we are all so screwed up. May be the guys that you met are, but not all of them are bad. There are LOT of good guys out there. Trust me on this one!!

alright, okay. I don't necessarily agree, but I'll let this rest for a while. It would be a good change for me as well. Some people are good, some are bad. Most of my experiences have been bad, but you are right, I shouldn't label people according to their ethnicity.

Its funny that you say that I've "thrashed" Indian men. Have I? really? I think I only stated what I faced. I haven't used a single swear word yet. I wouldn't call it thrashing.

[LAYAAN]

I went to school yesterday, stretched my brain a bit. Honestly, I came home so fatigued last night. Wanted to go for a drive, but didn't. Those cops scare me. I think I should pursue race driving, go to a racing school or something after school. Driving gives me a high. I said this jokingly to an Indian man I went out on a date with, the guy's face turned white He didn't even know that I was just joking.

Well, my trainer is so funny and silly. She has printed these stickers that read "no whining" and goes around harrasing her clients to work hard and when they complain she will slam one of those stickers on their shirt with a straight face and look at them like nothing happened. She is a hard trainer, thats for sure. No wonder people get results. My legs and arms are screaming man from lifting weights on Friday morning. I've to go swimming today. I can't even walk well with my already bad knee and my thigh muslces hurting. And I'm gonna try and swim? Not sure if its a good idea. When I told my friend that I joined a personal trainer, she asked me if I was trying to look like a supermodel. Sure, it won't hurt.

[Bergamot]

alright, okay. I don't necessarily agree, but I'll let this rest for a while. It would be a good change for me as well. Some people are good, some are bad. Most of my experiences have been bad, but you are right, I shouldn't label people according to their ethnicity.

Its funny that you say that I've "thrashed" Indian men. Have I? really? I think I only stated what I faced. I haven't used a single swear word yet. I wouldn't call it thrashing.

 

You don't have to necessarily use any swear words to thrash people. Repeatedly writing negative posts about a particular ethnicity will do it. Also, if you do use swear words the forum software will censor it any way.

 

Look, it is for your own good that I advised you to lay off the bitterness and thrashing Indian men. If you are open to dating men from other races then that is not a problem but it looks like you only want to get serious with Indian men. So think about it - how can you possibly fall in love with an Indian guy when you have so much bitterness and hostility against them? If some one does not work out just identify the red flags immediately and move on to the next. I most certainly understand why you are feeling angry Tinu. Trust me, I really understand. And it is even ok to vent out your anger and frustration once in a while. But off late your posts are becoming very hostile and some of them are outright alarming. You need to let go for your own good. Because if you don't, at some point it will start working against you!

[LAYAAN]

I went to school yesterday and today. I didn't want this. All my household chores are remaining. Laundry, cooking, cleaning. I only did grocery shopping in a hurry on Friday morning.

CA board sent me deficiency letter. There I go again. The process to just get licensed is... I don't know what to say, just one thing after the other. How much patience can one have? There is always something additional waiting in the line to be taken care of. God only knows when this all is gonna end. I'll have to pay my dues to the board of pharmacy again tomorrow. Take my money, I'll make sure that you get your paycheck

I'll have to go again tomorrow early in the morning to work on my paper. My boss was extremely frustrated Friday and said that this manuscript is pile of xxx. Numerous drafts, change this, change that, go to statistician, make changes again. How long is this thing gonna continue? He was stressed and frustrated today. I could just sense that in his attitude today. As if things were not already difficult for me, he is giving me this attitude. It is very difficult to work with him. No wonder he doesn't get any students. I came home asked myself "Why am I getting a PhD?" Oh yes! I want to get my degree and possibly go back to India if that door opens up. What do you wake up for every morning? I wake up to take heart and go one step forward just to find that my boss has pushed me 2 steps backwards in my PhD program. I wake up to pay the debt I owe to CA board of pharmacy and National Association of Boards of pharmacy from my last birth on this earth

I took my mood pill (anti-anxiety pill) too late. I will keep tossing and turning rest of the night now. I need to take a sleeping pill and hope that I can fall asleep tonight. I have no energy to pray. I'm dreading going into this coming week with no laundry, no cooked food, and a serious workload.

Hey, something worth mentioning happened! The pharmacist from my 2nd internship place called today! He said "I just called to say hello. We all are missing you here. How have you been?" Aww... that was just so sweet of him. I miss that place. Everyone there is a character, funny!

[LAYAAN]

I shall try my best. I can't assure though. In fact I was just about to write something that would beat the dead horse again, but I'll go about that business may be some other time.

[Bergamot]

I shall try my best. I can't assure though. In fact I was just about to write something that would beat the dead horse again, but I'll go about that business may be some other time.

 

Are you joking or are you serious?

[LAYAAN]

no... I'm only joking.