Prostitution as a solution for the overly shy male virgin

[Lowconfidence]

Can't he date online? Chat to them a bit before he actually meets them?

 

No, he still lacks good social skills.

[ProtestTheHero]

Then why is it that I can go to a park and see any number of young couples with their 'heads in the clouds'?

 

I'm sorry, but I don't buy this whole 'sex and love are different' argument. I think they go together. It's possible to have one without the other, yes, but usually they both go together.

 

That is romantic idealism, and if you think it's common then obviously I can't argue with you because it's a difference in ideology. Some of those people in the park will be throwing crap at each other in a couple months time, lol.

[LightbulbSun]

No, he still lacks good social skills.

 

Has he tried therapy? CBT is probably the best way to work on issues like this.

[Mellie]

No, he still lacks good social skills.

 

I just thought if he chatted with them over the net and got to know them a bit then maybe he'd feel a bit more at ease when he actually met them.

[LightbulbSun]

That is romantic idealism, and if you think it's common then obviously I can't argue with you because it's a difference in ideology. Some of those people in the park will be throwing crap at each other in a couple months time, lol.

 

Yes, that can happen, but it doesn't always.

 

If love doesn't exist, how do you explain all the songs written about it, all the movies made about it, all the poems, stories, and plays written about it. Hell, Shakespeare made a career out of talking about love. Was he off his rocker?

 

If love doesn't exist, why are we even talking on a love relationship forum?

[diabolik]

You should see this guy. Doesn't know how to flirt with a girl. Blushes easy. Not a great conversationalist when it comes to the opposite sex.

 

He tried to learn by reading the Mystery and SoSuave before. All it did was make him unbearbable for a few weeks. Then he went back into his little shell.

LC, you should see my friend - he was in much worse shape than your friend. Afraid of women, couldn't flirt if you gave him a manual, awful conversationalist, even with guys. If he hadn't used prostitutes, there's no doubt he'd end up like your friend in another decade. But as I noted above, once he started using prostitutes, he's definitely more confident in talking to women, though he still has a long way to go.

 

I'd say the biggest difference is that he no longer treats them like goddesses. Which makes sense, since he's seen women at their worst, so to speak.

[Mellie]

That is romantic idealism, and if you think it's common then obviously I can't argue with you because it's a difference in ideology. Some of those people in the park will be throwing crap at each other in a couple months time, lol.

 

Sadly, I have to say, that is soooooo true, lol!

[Lowconfidence]

Has he tried therapy? CBT is probably the best way to work on issues like this.

 

I don't think he wants to try anything. He's very negative and is waiting to just die. He doesn't have any hope for any good future for the reminder of his life. It's quite sad.

[ProtestTheHero]

Yes, that can happen, but it doesn't always.

 

If love doesn't exist, how do you explain all the songs written about it, all the movies made about it, all the poems, stories, and plays written about it. Hell, Shakespeare made a career out of talking about love. Was he off his rocker?

 

If love doesn't exist, why are we even talking on a love relationship forum?

 

Flowery language and what one actually does often conflict with one another. Oh yes, I will never deny literary skill and writing prowess, nor would I tell you that love does not exist. What I am saying is that it is rare. It is difficult to find. Most people do not find it. Most people think they are experiencing it when it is actually infatuation. Some people never experience it, so I am coming from a PRACTICAL standpoint.

[diabolik]

silentwisdom, mellie, PTH, can we please stay on topic, thanks.

[Lowconfidence]

Thinking more about it, it's not that bad of an idea.

 

You get experience.

You shouldn't be that nervous when it's your actual 'first' time without direct paying.

You realize sex is just sex. It's nothing special when you finish. Of course you desire it later when you are ready for another round but that's a different matter.

You could get a bit more confident.

 

But I still recommend it for only hopeless cases where the guy is so old and his options are next to nil.

[LightbulbSun]

I don't think he wants to try anything. He's very negative and is waiting to just die. He doesn't have any hope for any good future for the reminder of his life. It's quite sad.

 

Sounds like depression. I think he really could benefit from therapy.

 

There was a guy in the news recently who went to a sex surrogate therapist. He was a 42 year old virgin (I think) who had never kissed a girl, and was awkward around women. He paid for five days of therapy, where he and the woman therapist pretty much did everything, and she taught him how to kiss, how to have sex, and how to be intimate. Right after the therapy sessions ended, he started dating for the first time in his life, and now he has a girlfriend.

 

Maybe your friend could benefit from a similar method?

[amipushy]

I know I'm a woman but I wouldnt want my first experience of sex to be with someone who 'fitted me in' between two smelly old fat guys.

[LightbulbSun]

I know I'm a woman but I wouldnt want my first experience of sex to be with someone who 'fitted me in' between two smelly old fat guys.

 

LOL!

[tiredofvampires]

I know where you're coming from, Diabolik, but this is one of those ideas that I think you owe yourself as a brainstorm on...and then a really strong veto.

 

For precisely this reason:

 

Plus, I feel * * * * ty enough already. How am I supposed to feel if I think that the only way I can have sex with an attractive woman is to pay for it? I imagine that will make me feel even worse.

 

Yes, it's going to feel WORSE afterwards. You're going to say, "Wow, okay...so I got that over with. Now I see what it feels like to put my stuff in the legendary stuff. That's what all the hoopla was about? Feels like my hand with a little extra surround squeeze (or not, given how loose this particular hooker is)...big deal. (Jeez, I must've been a guy is a previous life.) And now? She doesn't care about me, I am no one to her...and this is how low I had to sink to get some. Now this is always and permanently on my record, that I was THIS desperate, to have to hire someone to have sex with me."

 

Personally, that would make me feel 10 times worse than when I started.

 

Will it give you the idea of "what all the fuss is about"? No, because the actual physical sensation in isolation is not where the fuss is at (even as I've heard tell by males). The fuss is at passion, and feeling turned on by your mate, after some courtship and coming to want them, and then consummating it, followed by going out for a bite and knowingly smiling at eachother, knowing you will see them tomorrow, and in between, remembering what they smelled like and what they said to you at their most vulnerable moment with their eyes tight shut...or looking into yours.

 

The rest is biomechanics which you have well-simulated at home many times.

 

I don't think that being nervous about your first time, coupled with a vague fear of STDs, coupled with the sense of shame and humiliation that this is only a business transaction and that you mean NOTHING to her, followed by 10 lousy perfunctory minutes or less without kisses, without real foreplay, without her even enjoying what you're doing, and a cold "see you" afterwards is going to make you feel relieved to be "free" of your virginity. Not one bit.

 

I mean, there is a contradiction here: virginity is a stigma? Yes, but who knows of your virginity but you? You don't have a big "V" stamped on your forehead for everyone to see. So, this is a thing you carry inside and no one needs to know -- yet you think your keeping it a secret that you saw a prostitute will feel less diminishing?

 

As I see it, if I got to know a guy who was a virgin and a late-bloomer, if secrets were told, I'd find it much more benign to learn you are a virgin than to know you visited a prostitute your first time. Of course, you could hide one better than the other...but if I am falling for you, why would I hold your virginity against you? By the time we are getting down to things, I've already found reasons to want it to get to this point (this is where the real crux of the process lies, not the having sex), so the actual virginitiy would be a technicality at that point to me, as a woman. And so virginity isn't an ugly secret, but I can see where the other alternative would be.

 

And frankly, in an emotionally open relationship, I think "my first time" is a story that most couples share. It's a turning point in most people's lives, a rite of passage. It's GOING to come up. I'd feel really bad if my partner just evaded the whole issue.

 

I think shy men are often very sensitive, and this will only backfire after the deed is done. It could trigger a lot of self-loathing.

 

If you are strong enough not to reduce yourself to a label paying for sex as a john, or to a single act, then why would you choose to "rid" yourself of your "virginity" label? It's inconsistent.

 

The point is, just don't reduce yourself to that one act, or define yourself by it, PERIOD.

 

Then, you won't need to seek out a sex worker.

 

I understand the curiosity, but it's really not all that, unless you have a lot else going on along with it. Even a ONS has more going for it, in that it's mutually sought, and no one's paying anyone -- and these are notorious for leaving people feeling empty, especially emotionally sensitive people. I think the worst thing about being a late-blooming virgin is that you feel no one desires you sexually, and that's not going to change until you find that person who really does.

 

So continue working on the ways that you might get there.

[ProtestTheHero]

Because virginity is often a "hurdle." I also don't understand why you'd necessarily feel worse afterwards...you are no longer a virgin. If you're 25-28 and you've never been hit on, never been smiled at, and never known the touch of a woman not named mom...it's something to consider. Is it as good as passionate sex or what have you? Probably not. But the starving man should not scoff at fried chicken because it's not lobster.

 

I would put money that a lot of women know when a guy is a virgin. I know my female friends could, and there's nothing exceptionally intuitive about them. There are a significant number of individuals who will not date virgins -- that's why doing this is practical.

[diabolik]

I don't think he wants to try anything. He's very negative and is waiting to just die. He doesn't have any hope for any good future for the reminder of his life. It's quite sad.

Have you and his other friends considered hiring a woman to seduce him?

 

 

TOV, as always, a very thoughtful post. I'm not sure that all these involuntary virgins are as sensitive and love-seeking as you think. The friend I wrote about earlier in this thread was quite happy to have visited a prostitute, and has been back for more.

[InBruges]

Hooker idea is no bueno. Let's consider why a guy wants to escape his virginity in the first place - for most, it's because they believe it's a sign of masculinity and becoming a man. But that is derived from an internal desire to feel one's own self-worth and power. Your self-worth is going to go right down the John if you pay for your first time. Seriously, what have you accomplished that anyone couldn't accomplish with X dollars?

 

I say keep up with self-improvement and personal growth. Expand yourself, your mind, your abilities and just work on using every gift you've been given to become the best person you can be. When you get to that point, then you'll naturally attract the right person... and she won't be someone that could be got for a few bucks. In fact, you may find you're the only guy in the world that could have captivated her attention the way you did.

 

Keep the faith.

[diabolik]

If you're 25-28 and you've never been hit on, never been smiled at, and never known the touch of a woman not named mom...it's something to consider.

LOL!

Is it as good as passionate sex or what have you? Probably not. But the starving man should not scoff at fried chicken because it's not lobster.

PTH, I'm gonna have to borrow that bit of wisdom - "the starving man should not scoff at fried chicken because it's not lobster". Love it.

[LightbulbSun]

Exactly. That's what I said in an earlier post...shy guys (me included) should work in therapy to get over their shyness. Then they won't be shy, and they'll be able to ask girls out.

[diabolik]

Exactly. That's what I said in an earlier post...shy guys (me included) should work in therapy to get over their shyness. Then they won't be shy, and they'll be able to ask girls out.

I agree that this is a better solution in the long run. But that takes time; hiring a prostitute does not.

[tiredofvampires]

I am still playing catch-up with this thread, but just to comment on this:

 

Do you have a percentage for what you're substantiating? I thought most women actually didn't care about junk size. Performance might be an entirely different topic, though.

 

You are correct, silentwisdom. See the 1,894,677 threads on penis size here for deets on item #1.

 

On item #2 (performance), nothing's more fun than learning new things with someone who 1. likes experimentation/adventuresomeness 2. is eager to please 3. is creative 4. is empathic and observant

 

If you have these qualities in bed, performance is going to be NO problem. Good lovers are somewhat born, but mostly made, if they have these core traits. And you won't get this practice with a hooker.

 

That one first time to me, that "drill" really isn't going to amount to a hill of beans with a real partner, since finding the hole isn't the biggest hurdle in the world.

[DunwichChild]

I am still playing catch-up with this thread, but just to comment on this:

 

 

 

You are correct, silentwisdom. See the 1,894,677 threads on penis size here for deets on item #1.

 

On item #2 (performance), nothing's more fun than learning new things with someone who 1. likes experimentation/adventuresomeness 2. is eager to please 3. is creative 4. is empathic and observant

 

If you have these qualities in bed, performance is going to be NO problem. Good lovers are somewhat born, but mostly made, if they have these core traits. And you won't get this practice with a hooker.

 

That one first time to me, that "drill" really isn't going to amount to a hill of beans with a real partner, since finding the hole isn't the biggest hurdle in the world.

 

I'm a virgin, so I don't know if it counts much, but I agree with this. I consider myself having those characteristics to some extent, at least, that's why I'm not too worried about my inexperience, when the moment (with the right person) arrives. It seems to me (I might be woefully off on this) but the mechanics of sex are simple enough, that after a couple of tries with a cooperative partner, it won't be much of an issue, especially if one possess those attributes.

[ProtestTheHero]

There are tons of things I can link to that would stress the importance of performance and size. Sexual issues are one of the biggest reasons behind marital strain. Not everyone is equally into or patient enough to show someone the ropes. It is very much an issue. An insurmountable issue? No. But it's important.

[tiredofvampires]

I agree that this is a better solution in the long run. But that takes time; hiring a prostitute does not.

 

I guess I'm just not a "band-aid" treatment person. The symptomatic fix, or the varnishing.

 

There is a REASON men suffer from crippling shyness, low self-confidence and enough social ineptitude that they can't get real partners interested, and that HAS to be addressed in order for them to feel confident about themselves as men. There are no shortcuts.

 

And in fact, even though I'm not a man, I feel greatly for this issue, having had a similar thought process going on when I lost my virginity. I wasn't that old (I was 18 ), but it was quite a bit later than all the girls I knew in school. I felt like I was the only one who hadn't grown up in this way, and was a freak. I was deeply envious of everyone around me, and the truth is, I was petrified of the first time, of sex, of that degree of being physically exposed (and as a woman, the pain.) So when I was with the guy who deflowered me, I'd say it was 1 part complete and total infatuation (and I would say love, as well) and 1 (generous part), "Man thank god, my time is gonna finally happen and I'll be rid of this hurdle once and for all." So yes, I agree it's a hurdle. And even though I was limping, I was limping very, very smugly afterwards. I did experience a shot of confidence -- but it was very short-lived.

 

It didn't change any of the major dynamics in my life.

 

And so Diabolik, I certainly wouldn't carve any of what I'm saying into some absolute truth for all people, or men. It sounds like your friend derived some benefit from it, and who am I to knock his results? Results are results. But I think he's probably the exception in some ways, not the rule (edit: gauging the kinds of men I see posting in eNA who are shy, most are sensitive and emotionally vulnerable), and once again, he'd be doing himself a much bigger service to deal with his whole MO and learn about sex with partners who can create some history with him, not just one dead end after another.

 

Prostitutes will forever be in business, and there's a reason for that. They will have regular johns for a reason. Some will be like your friend -- men who can't secure a relationship and need to get off. Which is the only reason he'd need to go at this point, since you aren't going to be learning new tantric techniques with a wham-bam deal.

 

To me, it's not really a question of knocking fried chicken because it's not lobster. It's more like eating vienna sausage and thinking you just had lobster.