JadedStar Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 Cannot believe a thread where the answer is no has produced so much emotion! There really wasn't any emotion in my posts. Very factual. Link to comment
ErikT Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 In the context of the thread, cheat and affair are being used synonymously.... If you are married, morally there is never an acceptable reason to cheat/have an affair/get some on the side. You took a vow of marriage and either you maintain that vow, or you get a divorce. There is no gray area here. I believe that many in today's society do not take the vow of marriage as seriously as it should be taken... Link to comment
usualusername Posted February 16, 2009 Author Share Posted February 16, 2009 In the context of the thread, cheat and affair are being used synonymously.... If you are married, morally there is never an acceptable reason to cheat/have an affair/get some on the side. You took a vow of marriage and either you maintain that vow, or you get a divorce. There is no gray area here. I believe that many in today's society do not take the vow of marriage as seriously as it should be taken... But what you say is too obvious. Is there any circumstance where an exception can be made? Link to comment
tangi39 Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 You took a vow of marriage and either you maintain that vow, or you get a divorce. There is no gray area here. I believe that many in today's society do not take the vow of marriage as seriously as it should be taken... ^^^ I agree ! This is just my two- Too many people treat the vows as though they are ...... For better or for worse..... or only when it's convenient for me For richer for poorer.....as long as I feel like it In Sickness and in health.....until I feel I deserve better Til death do us part.......or til I get bored with you If you can't keep the vows without the ...... you shouldn't get married. Or if you cannot work things out for whatever reason, get a divorce. Link to comment
ErikT Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 But what you say is too obvious. Is there any circumstance where an exception can be made? Yes it is obvious to some, but to others who feel they can justify their actions, it is not obvious. "Well she had an affair, so I should have one," or "We don't have sex as often as I would like, so let me get it on the side," is a wrong and shameful way of justifing doing what they know is wrong. This is a slippery slope to go down. If ______ is an acceptable reason, then can't we say that _____ is an acceptable reason to allow multiple wifes/husbands or accept _____ why incest is okay under the right circumstances? As far as an exception, No. I do believe that this is a black and white issue. The only "exception" which I somewhat accept is if the wife/husband accepts the other's activities in order to maintain some sense of family life for the sake of any children in the household...but when I bring that up, I tend to get flammed pretty quickly! ^^^ I agree ! This is just my two- Too many people treat the vows as though they are ...... For better or for worse..... or only when it's convenient for me For richer for poorer.....as long as I feel like it In Sickness and in health.....until I feel I deserve better Til death do us part.......or til I get bored with you If you can't keep the vows without the ...... you shouldn't get married. Or if you cannot work things out for whatever reason, get a divorce. Marriage is a sacred vow, not a contract or promise or lifestyle or concept. It is a vow that is made that should never be broken. Society has come to accept divorce and other social ills and they now are so common that they have become the norm. In a previous thread I made the statement that getting married or getting a divorce should be made more difficult. I could go on for pages about this, but I think I made my point. Link to comment
ErikT Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 ......is a figment of his imagination. ??? I don't understand... Link to comment
usualusername Posted February 16, 2009 Author Share Posted February 16, 2009 ??? I don't understand... Neither do i??????????????/ Link to comment
JadedStar Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 Marriage is a sacred vow, not a contract or promise or lifestyle or concept. It is a vow that is made that should never be broken. Society has come to accept divorce and other social ills and they now are so common that they have become the norm. In a previous thread I made the statement that getting married or getting a divorce should be made more difficult. I could go on for pages about this, but I think I made my point. While i agree with most of what you said on this I disagree that divorce should not be looked upon as an option. Truth is many people get married with the best of intentions and thought it would be forever. Some jump right into it without thinking but then many others really had the best of intentions and didn't realize what life circumstance would bring for them in the future. I don't think that making divorce extremely hard for them is the answer. If that becomes the norm then you can almost GuARANTEE that situations where the guy or gal cheats due to unhappiness in the marriage or not getting sex will become prevalent far more then they are today. Since divorce isn't that difficult to obtain that hopefully will make these situations less vs more. I am glad we no longer live in a society where people stay married forever despite silently suffering and being miserable. Divorce can be very healthy. Refusing to see the writing on the wall in a bad situation, is not. The only redeeming quality i can see about a person like that is maybe obstinance or such a strong tie to tradtition that they forsake their own happiness and probably even the happiness of their spouse. Trying to make a marriage work obviously is very noble but there are times when it is very obvious two people either are very incompatible or there are other issues that make happiness no longer an option, and divorce in that case is healthy and wise IMO. And for heavens sake if a person is contemplating an affair due to no sex for eight years or so, the shelf life of that marriage sounds like it had long expired. Get a divorce or if you wish to save it, forego the mistress and get some serious marriage counseling. Link to comment
melrich Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 "generally understands" in fact that means nothing. Thats like saying "common sense". What you generally understand or accept other do not. In fact it's a well established legal test. It is commonly called "the reasonable man test" and it simply refers to what the ordinary person in the street would generally infer without worrying too much about extreme circumstance, semantics and atypical definitions. So in this case, I am saying the ordinary person is most likely to think that being faithful is right and cheating is wrong. Link to comment
tylercdurden2004 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 ^^^ I agree ! This is just my two- Too many people treat the vows as though they are ...... For better or for worse..... or only when it's convenient for me For richer for poorer.....as long as I feel like it In Sickness and in health.....until I feel I deserve better Til death do us part.......or til I get bored with you If you can't keep the vows without the ...... you shouldn't get married. Or if you cannot work things out for whatever reason, get a divorce. Is divorce not against the vows? If we are going to literally interpret the vows as you have done I do not believe there is anything in the vows that says "all the above apply until the marriage is officially absolved." Marriage is a sacred vow, not a contract or promise or lifestyle or concept. It is a vow that is made that should never be broken. Society has come to accept divorce and other social ills and they now are so common that they have become the norm. Can you explain sacred to me please? To you are they scared? What do you mean by scared? Link to comment
annie24 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 ^^^ I agree ! This is just my two- Too many people treat the vows as though they are ...... For better or for worse..... or only when it's convenient for me For richer for poorer.....as long as I feel like it In Sickness and in health.....until I feel I deserve better Til death do us part.......or til I get bored with you If you can't keep the vows without the ...... you shouldn't get married. Or if you cannot work things out for whatever reason, get a divorce. i agree with you. but remember the other side too. sure, he shouldn't cheat. but then again, shouldn't his wife be trying to make things better too for the marriage, as opposed to shutting him out? marriage should be about a partnership - working together. i think we can all agree that if a man came home one day, and his wife said, "I'm off to India for 6 months to go and backpack, I'm using my own money - bye!!!! I'll see you later!" (or genders reversed, doesn't matter). i think we can all agree that such a unilateral decision would be grounds for divorce, and people probably wouldn't fault him for starting to date other women. Likewise, if a spouse decides to make another unilateral decision (like withholding sex, making large purchases/decisions without their partner's knowledge), they THEMSELVES are not holding to their wedding vows. Link to comment
tylercdurden2004 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 i agree with you. but remember the other side too. sure, he shouldn't cheat. but then again, shouldn't his wife be trying to make things better too for the marriage, as opposed to shutting him out? marriage should be about a partnership - working together. i think we can all agree that if a man came home one day, and his wife said, "I'm off to India for 6 months to go and backpack, I'm using my own money - bye!!!! I'll see you later!" (or genders reversed, doesn't matter). i think we can all agree that such a unilateral decision would be grounds for divorce, and people probably wouldn't fault him for starting to date other women. Likewise, if a spouse decides to make another unilateral decision (like withholding sex, making large purchases/decisions without their partner's knowledge), they THEMSELVES are not holding to their wedding vows. Thats good. Divorce is never easy. Its never cheap. In the end there are situations where even if a man (or woman) tries to get a divorce it wont be happening anytime soon. The last I knew of it there was no drive-thru divorce drop off points where one person can unilaterally divorce someone. Link to comment
tangi39 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 I was purely speaking of cheating. If you feel that strong a desire to cheat, you should get divorced if you are truly that unhappy. I do not condone divorce to just anyone. If you look at my posts, I typically tell people to try to work on their marriages first. I see divorce as an option if one party feels that they can never be happy, never will be happy, doesn't want to try anymore, says they don't love their spouse or never will, in essense if they say they have already left the marriage and have no desire to stay in it fully- and then go and cheat instead of getting a divorce. I wasn't speaking in terms of other marital problems. Of course, I would never tell anyone, well you are arguing, so you should get divorced. But if one party is already completely checked out of the marriage and has no desire to check back in, I see no reason to stay in it- What's the point ? That was the point I was trying to make. If you don't plan to work on your marriage, don't take the vows in the first place. Link to comment
blue69 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 In the context of the thread, cheat and affair are being used synonymously.... If you are married, morally there is never an acceptable reason to cheat/have an affair/get some on the side. You took a vow of marriage and either you maintain that vow, or you get a divorce. There is no gray area here. I believe that many in today's society do not take the vow of marriage as seriously as it should be taken... Actually no one else should criticize or force their opinions of what a marriage should be to any couple. IF, the couple agrees to any activities within their marriage, then that is between the two people (the couple) to determine. The only opinion of what is morally right or wrong within a marriage is between the couple. Everyone else is simply an opinion. Simply because you may not agree with the couple's decision doesn't make them less committed or less in love. Note: this only applies to consensual "affairs" as was being discussed. Cheating (which is different) is a whole different scenario. We can sometimes get to strong in our opinion of what or how other's should view marriage. I have to remind myself as well, that in defining a marriage or relationship, it really is between the couple and not anyone else. Link to comment
JadedStar Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 I agree with your sentiments. I also do not casually advocate divorce. It is something that you enter into and make vows, and one IMO should make every effort to resolve differences. But in the case of someone who wants to cheat, i will tell them everytime get a divorce first. I understand some people are saying didn't the woman break the sancitity of marriage by withholding sex, but i am not in the business of advising people to do onto others as they DO onto you but rather do the right thing even if the right thing wasn't done to you. I don't know what good it would do to tell someone 'sure, you aren't getting sex, go cheat on your wife/husband". Just because that person is not giving them sex is not a valid enough reason for me to advise someone to go out and take matters into their own hands like that. IF someone thinks they must cheat, i will always advise they get a divorce. if they do it or not, obviously, is up to him or her. Just because they decide not to divorce doesn't mean i will say 'well, that's cool, nothing wrong with that' because i think there is something wrong with that. It is my OPINION that i give, they can take it or not. Link to comment
JadedStar Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Is divorce not against the vows? If we are going to literally interpret the vows as you have done I do not believe there is anything in the vows that says "all the above apply until the marriage is officially absolved." Can you explain sacred to me please? To you are they scared? What do you mean by scared? It seems to me you are more interested in arguing semantics than the actual intent of the posts. Most of the posts you are challenging can be interpreted very easily by the average reader with average reading comprehension. Link to comment
usualusername Posted February 17, 2009 Author Share Posted February 17, 2009 One challenge I have had with this thread is how easy everyone paints divorce. Its a case of dont have an affair but get a divorce. In reality with the current economic environment divorce could traumatise both partners. I reckon if a wife withheld sex for 8yrs out of selfishness she gets what comes to her. Not ideal but understandable. Link to comment
JadedStar Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 One challenge I have had with this thread is how easy everyone paints divorce. Its a case of dont have an affair but get a divorce. In reality with the current economic environment divorce could traumatise both partners. I reckon if a wife withheld sex for 8yrs out of selfishness she gets what comes to her. Not ideal but understandable. Like i said above i do not advocate divorce easily. But if someone is diehard set to cheat the only advice i have to give is either forego the mistress and get marriage counseling, or end the marriage before cheating. Whether they do it or not is their business, but i certainly could never see it in my way to say it is cool for them to cheat since they are not getting any sex. For as much as you are surprised people advocate divorce over cheating I am equally surprised that you think it a good way to 'sock it to the spouse" who isn't giving up sex by cheating on her or him. We don't know the reasons why this may be happening, it is up to his or her spouse to talk about it openly and make it clear that if changes don't occur by a specific timeframe, or some real effort isn't made as well as counseling, that they are going to leave. That way it will become very clear how committed the person not having sex is to the marriage. If there is no commitment to change even when they know the deal (their spouse will leave them) then obviously they don't care enough to save the marriage anyway, and what kind of marriage is this? I also believe if kids have come out of the marriage that a parent can set examples by staying in a bad marriage or getting out of it. We are role models for our kids whether we like it or not. Link to comment
tylercdurden2004 Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Like i said above i do not advocate divorce easily. But if someone is diehard set to cheat the only advice i have to give is either forego the mistress and get marriage counseling, or end the marriage before cheating. Whether they do it or not is their business, but i certainly could never see it in my way to say it is cool for them to cheat since they are not getting any sex. Your right. If someone is in a marriage that hasnt hit the bottom then yes get councelling. No need to be a diehard about cheating. However much of the dicussion has also revolved around when a marriage is well past that point. As an example a sexless intimacy-less 5 years. Councelling is pretty low on the effective measures list at this point. The question asked was "is there ever" which means out of 1,000,000 opportunities to cheat is even one of those times "acceptable". Its a very general question. The above example, which is not all that uncommon unfortunately coupled with what my understanding of divorce proceedings is that both parties have to sign on the dotted line to get a divorce. What if one party refuses? Again not uncommon to hear of someones lawyers sending papers to the other party and the other party not signing them. For whatever reason. Its not about someone being a diehard all the time. In a perfect world people would get a divorce as soon as the realize the marriage in unsalvagable. unfortunately they dont. If your view is in a perfect world they would get divorce when they realize its unsalvagable then you can also accept in a perfect world they would not have been married in the first place. They would have enough understanding and clear enough head to see the issues at teh beginning and realize they will be bigger issues down the road. 99% its not OK to cheat. There however might very well be 1% of cases that its acceptable. At least to me. These cases divorces might not be feasible. There might be a myriad of other reasons why. Link to comment
melrich Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 The above example, which is not all that uncommon unfortunately coupled with what my understanding of divorce proceedings is that both parties have to sign on the dotted line to get a divorce. What if one party refuses? Again not uncommon to hear of someones lawyers sending papers to the other party and the other party not signing them. For whatever reason. I think now people in the thread are focussing too much on the technical "divorce". In all the points I have made on this thread, I want to make it clear that what I mean is separated (if I have not already said that). I am not one who subscribes to the tenet that a marriage is not over until the divorce papers are signed. But if a couple is still living as a married couple and have not separated or started divorce proceedings then I think it is not aceptable to cheat. Link to comment
tylercdurden2004 Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 It seems to me you are more interested in arguing semantics than the actual intent of the posts. Most of the posts you are challenging can be interpreted very easily by the average reader with average reading comprehension. I am not sure if you are intending this as a low blow or not. Are you questioning my reading comprehension? Again though this is the same as saying "common sense." I am challenging these posts because people can and do have different interpretations of what things mean. Someone quotes the vows indicating that nowhere in them do the vows make an exception for cheating. They also dont make an exception for divorce. This has zero to do with reading comprehension or the average reader. The problem with intent is that it requires interpretation. Different people will interpret someones intent differently. Link to comment
Rabican Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 It is never ok for a husband to have an affair unless his wife says "yes, it's ok go do it". in which case its not an affair if the wife oks it. I think by definition isnt an affair decietful? Link to comment
mca1975 Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 If you stop having sex altogether in a marriage, without a valid reason, like an illness, then isnt the marriage just doomed and basically, over? So both should get divorced, then they can each sleep with who they like. Link to comment
oldenoughtoknow Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Great thread. I've been through this firsthand. I love DN's comments. When you're young, escaping a relationship should be easy...well, as you know, it's still difficult. When you're middle aged, you have a nice house, you both have careers, you have kids together, you have dozens and dozens of mutual friends, you have a 20 year shared history - you have this seemingly wonderful life that you built together. And you have gone through 5+ years of marriage counseling. And you still just can't make it through a day without some type of conflict. And you both find that withdrawing from each other is the most painless recourse. And you both really don't want to have sex with each other...except maybe 2 or 3 times a year when you both can't stand it anymore. And there is still something inside you, some shred of hope, that still loves the other person - even though you can't stand to be around them. And neither one of you are at the point where you are willing to walk away from everything (see above). And you have both initiated that talk about staying together for the sake of the kids, at least until they leave the house. Believe me, that life is a living hell. Pure and simple. I wouldn't wish that life on my worst enemy. When you're living like that on a daily basis, and for years on end, I know how easy it would be for someone to crack. Link to comment
usualusername Posted February 19, 2009 Author Share Posted February 19, 2009 Yep and that goes to what i said in my above post, best to get the divorce out of the way the moment you realize you need to cheat to be happy vs dragging it out for years and doing it much later. Cheating now is a lot quicker and cheaper than a divorce. Not condoning it but it is a lot quicker. Link to comment
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