Spanking children-Right or Wrong?

[rocio]

If you actually have a more effective means of dealing with such a child...I am sure the world could use it. Share...

 

I think it's part of your job, as an authority figure in his life, to outsmart him, to use common sense and discernment in finding ways to reach him that don't involve violence and humiliation. If you're unable to do that, then maybe you should step back and let someone else deal with him.

[mrmaximum]

I think it's part of your job, as an authority figure in his life, to outsmart him, to use common sense and discernment in finding ways to reach him that don't involve violence and humiliation. If you're unable to do that, then maybe you should step back and let someone else deal with him.

 

Folks, if there was indeed a way that it could be done, if this magical formula did indeed exist so spanking was uneccesary....why aren't people using it? Outsmart, okay, I see where you are coming from, really I do, and yes, in SOME cases, it does work, yeah. However, after you have warned little Johnny NUMEROUS times and he STILL doesn't listen, time outs don't work, grounding doesn't work. This is what so many people have been saying WHAT THEN???

 

So many people keep repeating themselves about there being a better way and others are asking and NOBODY is talking about it. If you haven't been put in that situation because you have a great kid that learns before you have to get physical, great, my stepson is like that is it's awesome. However, what do you do when they don't??? NO ONE HAS VENTURED THIS WONDERFUL AND SUREFIRE METHOD. They just keep saying that it's sure to exist.

[Mythical_Suicide]

I'd like to know about this surefire method as well.. My son is one of those stubborn ones where NOTHING works. I have tried positive reinforcement, timeouts, taking things away, talking to him and any thing else known to man and yet still there are times where he continues doing what he gets in trouble for and I do resort to spanking. What else am I supposed to do? Allow him to get away with murder?

[Enigmatika]

I'd like to know about this surefire method as well.. My son is one of those stubborn ones where NOTHING works. I have tried positive reinforcement, timeouts, taking things away, talking to him and any thing else known to man and yet still there are times where he continues doing what he gets in trouble for and I do resort to spanking. What else am I supposed to do? Allow him to get away with murder?

Apparently....yes.

Anything other doesn't seem to work....so rather than a sharp swat to the butt...it's best to let him get run over in traffic so that no one calls you an "abuser" for spanking.

NO ONE HAS VENTURED THIS WONDERFUL AND SUREFIRE METHOD. They just keep saying that it's sure to exist.

Because they have never dealt with either of those situations....arm chair critics...lol

"Opinions" don't stand the test of Reality...unfortunately.

[Mythical_Suicide]

Apparently....yes.

Anything other doesn't seem to work....so rather than a sharp swat to the butt...it's best to let him get run over in traffic so that no one calls you an "abuser" for spanking.

 

 

Well then I guess everyone can label me an abuser because I refuse to allow my son to get away with anything because some people think its "wrong" to swat him on his butt if he gets out of line and nothing else works. Whenever someone comes up with something that actually works other than spanking, please let me know. As I will repeat for the millionth time time out, talking and taking things away doesn't work for every child it may work for yours but it doesn't for mine. If that makes me an abuser then so be it.

[rocio]

Like I said before, I have no problem with parents spanking their kids. What enigma has been describing does NOT sound like loving discipline. It sounds like hateful abuse.

 

And there is no magical formula. You can beat a kid until he's black and blue and he'll still make mistakes. Spankings and other forms of physical punishment are not a "wonderful and surefire method" either.

 

When I worked in a daycare, we would never dream of laying our hands on the children and they were extremely well-behaved, even the ones that came from bad homes and misbehaved horribly when with their parents.

 

One things that we would do is say, "I love you very much and I like you very much" (which I think is the ideal way to begin any form of discipline) "It's only that those hands of yours have been very naughty. Will you please talk to your hands and tell them that there's no hitting allowed in the daycare?" And yes, it worked 95% of the time. I think that love will win out over violence every time, and even more so with an angry, confused, violent, insecure child.

 

Other things that can work are offering rewards. If one kind of reward doesn't work, then you try another and another. It's a process. You have to be flexible, trying different things, and really reading the child to know what's in his head and his heart and adjusting your strategy accordingly.

 

That's why I said you have to outsmart him. Unfortunately, too many adults are outsmarted by children, become frusterated, and turn to violence to regain control of the situation.

 

If a child is very angry and disobedient, you need to really sit down and talk to him about what's bothering him. If you hurt him (and I'm not talking about a gentle spanking here, which I agree with MS does NOT actually cause pain), it will only alienate him and make him more furious.

[Mythical_Suicide]

I think some people miss the point when most parents "spank" their kids they don't harm them, they tap their behinds just enough to get their attentions and make them realize "hey wait a minute I did something i'm not supposed to do" and that's exactly what I do with my son. However, some parents go far beyond that and they spank their child. IMO (And it's just my opinion, do what you're going to do) but one swat is good enough there's really no reason for you to pop a child more than once never have I popped my son on his behind more than once for something and I NEVER spank out of anger, if i'm angry I just walk away because what is that really going to teach a child if I turn around and smack him while i'm angry and end up hurting him. I don't want my son being afraid of me because I hurt him because of something he did.

[rocio]

MS, I've been reading your posts on ENA for some time and it's clear that you're a loving and dedicated mom with maturity well beyond your years. Which is why it upset me earlier when people were throwing around these accusations of child abuse.

 

Some people have asked where you draw the line between reasonable discipline and abuse, and I think it's just common sense.. something you seem to possess.

[m12988]

MS, I've been reading your posts on ENA for some time and it's clear that you're a loving and dedicated mom with maturity well beyond your years. Which is why it upset me earlier when people were throwing around these accusations of child abuse.

 

Some people have asked where you draw the line between reasonable discipline and abuse, and I think it's just common sense.. something you seem to possess.

 

I agree. When i have kids i'm gonna ask MS for advice lol

[AwdreeHpburn]

Other ideas? Sheesh, thought I gave some earlier. Maybe not good enough... I guess if one is at a stage with a child where nothing in the entire universe is working, maybe that child needs medication, therapy or hospitalisation.

 

Can I just say.....I have 3 kids. NONE of which I have ever hit. EVER. And my eldest is 9. Weird thing is, they are actually very well behaved children. They get great reports in school and don't have any issues with other children. Seriously.

 

Of course they're not perfect. They throw tantrums. They don't always want to go to bed. They want stuff at the grocery store. They argue with me.

 

I'm not gonna lie, it'd be a heck of a lot easier to smack a kid in the face for throwing a fit in the store than it is to walk the child out. But I guess I knew going into this child raising thing that it wasn't going to be easy.

 

Maybe I'm just patient. Or maybe I don't want my kids to be afraid I'll hit them. But I DO want them to know that that kind of behaviour is unacceptable in a store.

 

So what can we do besides crack them on the behind? Or swat them in the back of the head?

 

Well, I have taken my kids out of a grocery store in the middle of shopping. Yes, I have.

 

Inconvenient? of course! And I was angry and they knew it. But these are my kids. They're more important. They have a dad or a sitter. I can drop them off with their grandmother or a neighbour and finish my shopping later.

 

Look - I'm not calling anyone an abuser. Do what you have the tools to do. Do what's in your arsenal. Maybe there are people who just have more at their disposal. If you want to increase what's at yours however, there are TONS of parenting classes, books, therapists etc. Tons of things out there to aid parents.

 

If you think there are times when there is nothing left to do but hit a child, I say you're wrong and I think that is a very dangerous path to let one's self travel....

[melrich]

Folks, if there was indeed a way that it could be done, if this magical formula did indeed exist so spanking was uneccesary....why aren't people using it?

 

Some people do. But it takes more work than spanking and some people do not have the time or patience for it.

[novaseeker]

I agree with this.

 

My son is generally very well behaved and has never once been spanked or hit. What his mother and I do when he needs to be disciplined is simply take away things he would normally have -- like no TV access, no video game access, no toy/playing card access, no going over a friend's house to play, etc. -- for a set period of time and enforce that *strictly*. It's pretty effective because he hates it, so that it acts as a pretty good threat/deterrent when he is doing something one of us doesn't want him to be doing.

 

Everyone's parenting technique is different, of course, but I simply don't believe that any child *needs* to be exposed to violence in order to learn how to behave properly.

[Mythical_Suicide]

MS, I've been reading your posts on ENA for some time and it's clear that you're a loving and dedicated mom with maturity well beyond your years. Which is why it upset me earlier when people were throwing around these accusations of child abuse.

 

Some people have asked where you draw the line between reasonable discipline and abuse, and I think it's just common sense.. something you seem to possess.

 

Thanks and this is exactly why I chose to ignore the accusations of child abuse because I do what works for me and I know that what I do is not abuse and I agree, it's common sense where to draw the line I don't hurt my son when I spank him and if I did then that would be abuse. I have never once left a mark on my son or popped him hard enough for even a red mark to appear nor have I ever made him cry from popping him and usually when I do swat him it's on his covered butt (With a pull up and pants on and for anyone whose dealt with kids they know pull ups and diapers are THICK) i've never spanked him on his bare bottom and the only other place i've ever swatted him is on his hand when he was smaller and I did that maybe 2 times at most.

 

For someone who doesn't even know me to try and sit there and accuse me of "abusing" my child really just shows how ignorant some people are.

[Mythical_Suicide]

I agree with this.

 

My son is generally very well behaved and has never once been spanked or hit. What his mother and I do when he needs to be disciplined is simply take away things he would normally have -- like no TV access, no video game access, no toy/playing card access, no going over a friend's house to play, etc. -- for a set period of time and enforce that *strictly*. It's pretty effective because he hates it, so that it acts as a pretty good threat/deterrent when he is doing something one of us doesn't want him to be doing.

 

 

That works for you, GREAT!! however my point is what is a parent supposed to do when this doesn't phase their children? My son could care less if he has no toys, tv, outside time or anything he really doesn't care. I can put him in timeout all day long (and before someone else tries to jump down my throat not all at once, he gets 3 minutes at a time for his age.) and I can talk until i'm blue in the face and NOTHING works. Just because it works for you and your child doesn't mean that works for everyone and this is where parents have to go alittle farther with discipline.

[melrich]

I don't hurt my son when I spank him

 

Then why does it stop bad behaviour? Why would it stop him, say, drawing on the walls if the tap on the bottom does not hurt him?

[AwdreeHpburn]

That works for you, GREAT!! however my point is what is a parent supposed to do when this doesn't phase their children? My son could care less if he has no toys, tv, outside time or anything he really doesn't care. I can put him in timeout all day long (and before someone else tries to jump down my throat not all at once, he gets 3 minutes at a time for his age.) and I can talk until i'm blue in the face and NOTHING works. Just because it works for you and your child doesn't mean that works for everyone and this is where parents have to go alittle farther with discipline.

 

what DOES matter to him?

 

Surely there's something that he would consider a punishment.

 

Like I said, if he's really THAT out of control, where you ask him to put a toy away and he's literally THAT defiant, there's other things going on.

 

Normal defiance is, "I don't wanna." Well, do it anyway. "No!" Ok, you won't put that toy away, then its confiscated.

 

Take the toy away for a whoie day.

 

"So what! I have more toys!"

 

"Yes, you do have more toys. And you should make sure they are all put away too because if they're not, they're going to be confiscated too."

 

"ok......"

 

My kids say, "YOU'RE MEAN!" or "I hate you!" all the time to me. Cos they're angry and they're learning. I tell them to say they're angry instead but kids are knee-jerk. They haven't lived as long as we have. We can't realistically expect them to know what we do.

[mrmaximum]

Other ideas? Sheesh, thought I gave some earlier. Maybe not good enough... I guess if one is at a stage with a child where nothing in the entire universe is working, maybe that child needs medication, therapy or hospitalisation....

...If you think there are times when there is nothing left to do but hit a child, I say you're wrong and I think that is a very dangerous path to let one's self travel....

 

What Mystical Suicide, myself and others are saying is that hitting is the LAST RESORT. All of what you had suggested has been tried at one point in time or another. My wife has done the exact same thing that you have described when shopping. Hey listen, your preaching to the choir here, okay? I don't have a choice when dealing with my step kids in terms of punishment so I HAVE to figure something out other than hitting. HOWEVER (and this is the point that some have said over and over agian) with SOME kids you may not have any recourse!! remember that step child I spoke about earlier? All I have to do is give him a stern word and that is all it takes... now. I have seen my wife take him to task a few times (only twice mind you over the last 4 years, but this is what I mean, sometimes, warnings fall on deaf ears).

 

Tell me ladies and gentlemen, if you could find a way to deal with people without violence, then why does it exist? Becase people WILL push and push and push until one side gives. You see it on the news, someone has someone else hostage and is acting irrationally (we see kids acting like chicken with their heads cut off all the time) The police warn him, he doesn't stop. They warn him again, nothing. They get a hostage negotiatior (who has skills that make ours look ridiculous) and sometimes even THEY can't stop the situation. We then see what happens, they use force, and sometimes deadly force. If it's true for children, then it should be true for adults too, it isn't, we all know this, so how can one say "Find an alternative, you just aren't looking hard enough" As I said, sometimes after all the best laid plans, there is simply nothing you can do.

 

You can't place all children in one mold just like you can't place all people in the same mold. If you don't have to beat your kids that simply doesn't mean that someone down the street doesn't have to either. You have no idea what that person is like and you have no idea what their children are like. My wife even had this happen to her!! She was chastised about how she was letting her kids 'walk all over her' by an old friend and she decided to take them off her hands for a while. You have to understand, this friend of my wifes was a born and bred Caribbean woman who had been around strong willed children all her life and knew how to take care of them.

 

Yeah, well this same woman called my wife and agreed that they where times that they could be "a handful", she had no idea until they where at her house (walk a mile in your shoes, right?) Everyone, and every situation is different. What we all must understand is that this is indeed the way life works. What works for you may not work for me, plain and simple. How easy is it to just say "Don't hit your kids, just figure something else out" Sorry, that is a far easier thing to say than it is to do. Remember, while you may not have to employ such tactics, some people still have little Sprogly running up the walls while they are "Figuring something else out" and have run out of ideas. At the end of the day, we are still responsible for teaching them right from wrong, if all else fails......Some will always say "I don't believe that, just try harder" yeah, have you ever been in that situaiton where NOTHING else worked? You obviously don't have to spank a child that is behaving, right?

 

BTW, I'm also not for just medicating a child simply for them being children. There are so many people doing this nowadays because people want child rearing to be easy. Meds, therapy, hospitilization. Remember, these are children and you can't reason with them in some cases. You can expect an adult to follow your directions, but some kids just won't. That's what makes them kids. I have ADD and got along fine without meds, therapy, or hospitilization, I had to find a way to deal with life or it was going to deal with me and I'm saddened by all the people who are so quick to look for "Professional help" to assist them with dealing with their kids. They aren't robots, they aren't supposed to just do what we say. And yes, sometimes all the logic in the world doesn't register.

[AwdreeHpburn]

I feel ya. Sort of.

humans are reactive and physical. I get that. I know it. can't really change our genetics, even if we know its wrong. I get that too.

 

I know humans react violently to disputes. Prisons are full of those types. That's why we still have wars.

 

I'm not even saying I'm "opposed" (for lack of a better term) to violence... when it comes to consenting adults or a volunteer army.

 

But hitting kids? What for?

 

I know kids aren't made from the same mold. I've got three kids that are actually from real similar molds and they're all different.

 

I know its easier said than done. Never said it was easy. Its trying. It is VERY difficult. Specially for someone with a short fuse or little to no patience. But to me, its THAT important.

 

I don't think you could show me a kid, even one with serious issues, that couldn't be helped thru means other than hitting. I don't agree that there's ever NO other recourse.

I'm not about medicating kids either. But if issues are so severe that a parent is at wits end and feels the only thing left is a physical punishment, I say, maybe there are bigger issues.

 

Let's face it... average kid here, right? We're talking average kid, doing average kid stuff.

 

Freaking out in a grocery store.

 

What to do?

1. Warn the child that he will not get a treat, not get to help pick out the cereal or whatever other task I hope you thought to put him to before entering the store.

2. Take away said responsibility, treat etc whatever

3. Warn him that he will be removed from the store.

4. remove him from the store.

 

Nine times out of 10 times we don't get past the first warning.

 

So same scenario

 

1. Warn the child he will get a spanking.

2. Spank him.

 

Then what? Where do you even go from there? Does it just ALWAYS work?

 

Or am I just being ridiculous and that is not one of those "last resort" type situations.

 

Ok, so you're at a playground. Your kid is running around hitting other kids.

 

1. Tell him to stop or he'll sit out for a while and not play. Make him apologise

2. Make him sit out and don't allow him to play for a bit, make him say sorry.

3. Remove him from the playground

 

Same scenario.

 

1. Warn him that if he doesn't stop hitting, you'll hit him, make him apologise

2. Hit him

 

Give me an AVERAGE kid like situation where there is NO alternative to striking the child, and i will personally give you an alternative to try.

 

 

2.

[sophie274]

I wanted to stay out of this because I don't have children so I don't think I am qualified to discuss too much, but had to comment on mr. maximum's last post.

 

 

 

I can't believe you are comparing a child misbehaving to a hostage crisis. In that case, the reason the police use violence is because the hostage taker is threatening to kill how ever many people he is holding hostage! There's a risk and pay-off balance there - one person killed who is going to spend the rest of his life in jail anyway, or 20 innocent people murdered?

Until your child is holding a gun to another child's head, the use of violence just does NOT equate!

 

 

 

 

I'm hoping by "beating" you mean spanking or swatting - beating your children IS illegal (pretty sure here). What could a child possibly be doing that deserves beating him/her?

 

 

And you are able to, and able to get them to behave? Doesn't that then undermine the argument that sometimes you just HAVE to spank.

I'm also interested in the answer to melrich's question about how spanking works if it doesn't hurt at all.

[mrmaximum]

I can't believe you are comparing a child misbehaving to a hostage crisis. In that case, the reason the police use violence is because the hostage taker is threatening to kill how ever many people he is holding hostage! There's a risk and pay-off balance there - one person killed who is going to spend the rest of his life in jail anyway, or 20 innocent people murdered?

Until your child is holding a gun to another child's head, the use of violence just does NOT equate!

 

Here it is, you have someone acting irrational, logic does not apply! You warn them, they do not listen. you even tell then that if they do not back down, force can and will be used!! Some back down, some do not. That was my point!! Here you have someone looking into certain death and they do not back down. Some kids are like that too, you try everything and some won't, NO MATTER WHAT YOU TRY!! We are still talking about people here, folks, c'mon, your telling me that even though there are some people that you cannot talk down from doing something completely irrational that may end up with their death but you can ALWAYS talk down a child?

 

 

And you are able to, and able to get them to behave? Doesn't that then undermine the argument that sometimes you just HAVE to spank.

I'm also interested in the answer to melrich's question about how spanking works if it doesn't hurt at all.

 

Not all the time. There are times that I have defer to my wife and if you re-read my post you will see that there was a time or two that she had to step in, physically. Logic no longer applied and she had to use physical force. Like I said before I've seen both sides, so I know that there are times where "Wonderful methods" simply won't apply.

 

Plain and simple, just because your kid is an angel doesn't mean that everyone else's is.

[mrmaximum]

Humans are somewhat the same from children to adults. Reward, and punishment all apply. This is what I mean, if what you are saying was true, FORCE WOULD NEVER BE NECESSARY. We both know that this isn't true. Trying it, and it working are two different things.

[melrich]

Humans are somewhat the same from children to adults.

 

They're not actually.

 

Here it is, you have someone acting irrational

 

Kids are not very rational.

 

Reward, and punishment all apply.

 

If that's what you want to teach your kids.

 

Personally I have no issue in principle with spanking. Each parent has to decide for themselves how they want to discipline within reason. The problem I see with spanking is not so much that the child is physically hurt (let's face it I am sure most of us understand that it is quite mild and short term pain) it's what it does and does not teach the child.

 

And if you are constantly spanking...when do you work out that the child is not learning.

 

If a child has constant behaviour problems and keeps repeating them in one form or another, you need to address the source of the behaviour, not the behaviour itself.

 

Our son was very difficult between the ages of 4 and 5...believe me, the number of times I wanted to give him a walloping....but I knew that I would only be doing that to ease my frustration.

 

We tried everything and the next step in the punishment scale probably would have been spanking. But we decided to go the hard way and find out what was causing the behaviour. After many aborted attempts we discovered he had sleep apnea ( I thank god we didn't start hitting him because we would basically have been physical with him because he had a health problem). he had his tonsils and adenoids removed, the sleep apnea went away and he has been mostly an angel ever since.

 

If your child is displaying real behavioural problems that may lead you to think that spanking is the last resort, look for the cause rather than trying to have an immediate impact on the behaviour. Because if you don't find the cause the behaviour will just repeat itself in one way or another unless you make the child so fearful of you that it is petrified to do anything....and that will just create a whole new set of problems.

 

In one way kids are pretty simple. They all have their own motivations and their own raeson for doing things. It's the harder road but if you take the time and effort to find out what that is you will go a long way to helping the child overcome them.

[mrmaximum]

Rewards, punishment, pain pleasure, these basics concepts STILL do apply, yeah? Am I correct with that statement? We can reward adults just like we can reward children, right? That is our job to show them what certain actions may lead to if one isn't careful. You said yourself that children aren't rational, can we 'outsmart' them and get them back to thinking rationally? Of course and 9/10 I bet that this is what transpires in homes and daycares accross North America. However there is still that 1/10 of the time where logic goes right out the window and this is the situaiton that some are discusssing.

 

I hear you Melrich, I can hear what you are saying about this. I tend to look at things from a situation point of view. Let's take my stepson. normally he is VERY rational and reasoning with him isn't very difficult. To quote my wife, there are times where he gets 'passionate' about certain things. usually when this happens she will give in to him as (at the time) he would never ask for much. There was one instance where he asked to get something from a buddy's place (he was 7 at the time) and he just wouldn't take no for an answer. He kept on repeating himself and getting more and more belligerent as time wore on.

 

My wife was very patient (because like Awdree stated about her children, it usually doesn't go very far with him) but was letting him know that he was getting closer and closer to the line. He never relented and his behavior was getting worse and worse. I even warned him a few times that he was pushing the limit quite a bit and he ignored me completely. I would have lost it right there but I can do anything, I knew I was out of my element (not to mention that I was shocked to see him acting like this!!)

 

She told him to go upstairs, he ignored her and kept asking. She ordered him to go upstairs, same thing. He pushed and pushed, and began to shout and become even more disrespectful. That is where my wife got physical. This is what I mean, what more could we take from him? We told him that he was losing privileges by the second, did her care? No. We told him that he was grounded to his room, did he care, no!

 

That is the reason why I likened it to a hostage situation. You have someone who most likely wants to actually NOT die but will not budge from his demands!! There are men in authority with guns outside who will REALLY punish this man for continuing his course of action, some will relent.....but some do not. Did My stepson know that he couldn't anger his Mom without something happening that he REALLY wouldn't want. Of course, like I said I've only seen this sort of thing from him twice and the second time there was no hitting involved really. More often than not, you really don't have to deal with his case as he can see where his actions will lead. So tell me, why did he do it? Temporary insanity?

 

This is what I mean and some of the others here. I wouldn't use spanking as my first line of discipline, but as a last resort, and yes, just like telling your sniper that you have the green light to 'retire' that dude, there will be times that it will have to be employed. If you haven't had to, God bless you, good that you found a happy medium where it isn't necessary, but, and this is what so many people do not realize. NOT ALL KIDS WILL RESPOND LIKE THIS!!!

[melrich]

Rewards, punishment, pain pleasure, these basics concepts STILL do apply, yeah?

 

If you want to use extremes as an example (like the sniper) then it can be illustrative. Torture will usually result in a desired behaviour but why are you getting that behaviour and what happens when the threat of torture is taken away? Does the man who is tortured into renouncing a religion continue to renounce that religion when the threat of the torture is removed?

 

As i said, I am not intractable on spanking and I can well understand why people resort to it. It is usually a quick fix (though one issue is the child can become immune to it and this can lead to escalation) and stops the immediate bad behaviour. It is also less effort than trying to find the source of the behaviour or to teach your child why the behaviour is bad.

 

We decided very early with our first child that we were not going to resort to physical punishment. And on occasions that has been hard because our first did have real behavioural issues as I said above.

 

but the reason we decided on it was mainly because we did not feel it taught the child the right lesson and that it was a short term fix (unless you make the child so petrified of you that it won't put a foot wrong out of fear.)

 

So our approach is to help our children understand why they are behaving badly and help them address it themselves.

 

She told him to go upstairs, he ignored her and kept asking. She ordered him to go upstairs, same thing. He pushed and pushed, and began to shout and become even more disrespectful. That is where my wife got physical. This is what I mean, what more could we take from him? We told him that he was losing privileges by the second, did her care? No. We told him that he was grounded to his room, did he care, no!

 

It's hypothetical...but here we would ignore the temper tantrum until it had cooled down. We'd then ask him to go to his room and not come out until he could tell us why he was so angry (this puts the responsibility on them about when to come out). Usually you get a few false starts,

 

"I was angry because I hate you" etc....no that is not satisfactory go back to your room and think why was it that you were this angry, think about what you were doing and why...then come back and tell us.

 

Eventually you get the to their truth, what they were feeling. Then you can address that. In your case it is likely that in the main it's an expression of independence. So you have to SHOQW your child a more appropriate way to express that. You have to tell him why it is not appropriate to speak to adults like that. You may have to do this many times but if you keep giving the respionsibility back to them, they will eventually get the lesson (unless there is something physiological causing the behaviour). You have shown them respect and you will get respect back.

 

It's definitely not as quick a fix as a wallop and it takes a lot of time and effort but my feeling is it is longer lasting.

 

We do punish but never in the heat of the moment. At that time we remove our kids from the situation (or in a circumstance like you are talking about we remove ourselves).

 

In terms of punishment we know what motivates our kids because we have been through a lot of trial and error. But we always put the punishment in context, so before they receive their punishment they know what it is for. That's one other thing I guess spanking does not give you the opportunity to do, let your child know exactly what they are being spanked for.

 

Parenting is very hard and discipline is just about the hardest aspect of it. I would never condemn parents for spanking but I would always maintain that there other ways that will work with effort.

[mrmaximum]

It's hypothetical...but here we would ignore the temper tantrum until it had cooled down. We'd then ask him to go to his room and not come out until he could tell us why he was so angry (this puts the responsibility on them about when to come out). Usually you get a few false starts,

 

She had given him a few moments here and there to cool down and he only got worse. This is where my wife is better than I at situations like this as I would never had tolerated that. He would wait a few minutes and then start up again. How long are you willing to wait? You have to understand that he was making it pretty clear that he was not going to take no for an answer. This was slowly building from about 6:00pm and he then started to needle his mom (and ignore me) for about an hour, making his presense known so that it was impossible to ignore him (and boy did she try). All these ideas work well if the other person is receptive. As I have said before, what if they aren't? What do you do then?

 

We do punish but never in the heat of the moment. At that time we remove our kids from the situation (or in a circumstance like you are talking about we remove ourselves).

 

He followed her.