Spanking children-Right or Wrong?

[m12988]

May SOUND elitist but its mostly true.... l

 

 

"Children in homes full of books and educational games are less likely to get spanked, new research shows.

 

Recent studies have found that corporal punishment can cause significant antisocial behavioral, such as lying, cheating, and hitting, in children as they grow older."

 

and here's the link with the fuller story to the above statement:

link removed

 

 

There are tons of studies about the lasting affects of spanking.....

 

(from the AP) -- New research by a University of New Hampshire domestic abuse expert says spanking children affects their sex lives as adults. Professor Murray Straus concludes that children who are spanked are more likely as adults to coerce partners to have sex, to have unprotected sex and to have masochistic sex.

 

Here's a fuller article on same topic.

link removed

 

 

I am thankful to know people that study statistics and fill me in on these so called reports. What people fail to see about these types of "research" is that they merely sample only a select few of people. If this surveyed the entire population of a particular country, i would be interested in reading what it has to say.

[m12988]

When I was spanked as a child, it was never for doing anything really bad. I would get spanked for not picking up my socks after being told the 3rd time, for jumping on the bed, etc (3 was the limit, when being told to do something, in the house).

 

Oh my gosh, this totally reminded me of something.

 

I went to church with my ex one Sunday, and his preacher talked about beating his child, a toddler!!!

 

Instead of thanking God that his 2-year old didn't poke out his own eye (or worse), he beats the child for something that is his fault.

 

Stories like that are disturbing to me, and it kind of makes me question the whole thing.

 

 

These are abuse. Well the first one isn't exactly "abuse" but that is one of the weirdest spanking reasons i've heard of. I think if you are going to spank, it should be last resort and not over such a petty thing like socks.

 

About your ex's preacher...WOW lol that is one of the most ridiculous things. He should have spanked HIMSELF for leaving a knife out in the reach of a 2 year old.

 

I guess you could say, i think spanking children is RIGHT in some families and WRONG in others. Some families have obedient kids that actually listen and do what they are told the first time, when other families have kids that just don't give a dang what you do and the only way they get set straight is from a hand to the butt. So i dont think anyone is wrong in this situation, as long as they are doing what works best for them and their child.

[melrich]

(and sometimes the hand, like if you have a 2 year old that insists on playing with the knobs on a stove).

 

Children under the age of 4 should not be spanked full stop, whether you believe in spanking or not. A two year old does not know right from wrong, kids don't even begin to develop a sense of this until they hit about 4 years of age.

 

If you are spanking a 2 year old because it touches a knob on a stove then you are spanking the child because you have not taught it the danger.

[m12988]

Children under the age of 4 should not be spanked full stop, whether you believe in spanking or not. A two year old does not know right from wrong, kids don't even begin to develop a sense of this until they hit about 4 years of age.

 

If you are spanking a 2 year old because it touches a knob on a stove then you are spanking the child because you have not taught it the danger.

 

It's not me who's doing the spanking....but when the kid goes back and forth back and forth back and forth....then yeah, sometimes a small tap on the hand and a NO will do. It worked with my cousin anyhow. Now we only have to tell him NO and he goes away. I might not be a mom...but i think my aunt makes one heck of a good mom and i don't think she's wrong for a minor tap on my cousin's hand.

[melrich]

Now we only have to tell him NO and he goes away.

 

But why? Because he thinks he is going to be hit....not because he understands that it is dangerous. So potentially, as soon as he sees there are no adults around and he won't be hit, he'll go and grab the knob.

 

2 and 3 year olds are about teaching....not about punishment. They do not have the capacity for right and wrong. They have an enormous capacity for learning.

[rocio]

when my 13 month old tries to play with electrical plugs or other dangerous things, I tell her in a very stern voice "Ow! It's hot!" Although she doesn't talk yet, she understands the words "ow" and "hot" and will simply walk away.

[AwdreeHpburn]

....and the risk with releasing studies to the general public is that they won't understand the results. Because there's NO WAY they can publish an entire study's findings. If they did, it would be voluminous, dry and boring.

 

So, the media condenses some guys YEARS of work into a chewable sized bite so we can scoff at it as meaningless or useless.

 

Well of course we're going to think that if we're only reading a line of two, or even an article written by a journalist who skimmed over the press release and not even the actual study.

 

Behavioural science is not just a quick poll of 20 or 30 people. I don't know about the cases I gave links to but I do know there are people who study behaviours and links to all kinds of different childhood experiences, continually. Some for years and years.

 

I have been taking part in a study since I was in highschool. Every year they send me a survey. I'm 35 and have been taking this survey since I was 15. So for 20 years already! (wow.... when I say it like that....) And so are a bunch of the other kids at my highschool and the other highschools in the area.

 

Does that mean their findings are definitive? Prolly not, but if they have conducted or are conducting the same research in other cities, they prolly have a pretty large pool of data these 20 years, not so easy to scoff at.

 

If a study that claims to be studying the effects of spanking just polls a handful of mom's picked from a single daycare in some remote little town, that would be highly irresponsible. Does it happen? Sure. Are those studies regarded as usable? No.

 

There's a whole process. There are checks and balances so that one can't just go and look at a bunch of kids and say, "oh, see! He just did that, his mom spanked him and he stopped. I'm gonna conclude that spanking is ok." And then publish a paper and have that be the end all.

 

There's a whole process...

[Enigmatika]

*cough*

 

Before you throw Fox noise up as the Standard Bearer for anti spanking...you MIGHT want to check the methods:

 

Method: The study used a non-experimental design and data from the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth. The analysis was conducted using fixed effects methods to control for observed independent variables as well as all unobserved time invariant variables. Dummy variables were constructed for corporal punishment to allow for potential nonlinear effects. Interaction terms of corporal punishment and racial or ethnic group were constructed to test for the possibility of differing effects of corporal punishment on antisocial behavior accross racial and ethnic groups.

link removed

That was just the First Source....want the second one?

 

Bottom line= Bunk.

Miller is correct that causality can be inferred only from randomized

experimental design. Statistical controls in quasiexperimental

design only rule out the alternative causal explanations

specifically controlled for in the analyses.

Accordingly, while we presented our results as being consistent

or inconsistent with causal hypotheses, there is no

instance in our report in which we explicitly claim that spanking

causes children’s aggression.

......blah blah

 

Use of causal models, even with only 2 points

of measurement, is appropriate for this purpose because

“[causal models] aid in choosing among relevant causal hypotheses

by ruling out those not supported by empirical evidence.

This is the logic of falsification. When theories are

expressed as causal models, they are subject to rejection if

contradicted by data.”1 As stated in our report, our results

were consistent with claims that spanking causes aggression

for some children (namely, 8- to 11-year-old boys living

with white single mothers), but provided evidence to contradict,

or falsify, this hypothesis for several other subgroups

of children.

link removed

So we are to infer that potentially it is WHITE SINGLE MOTHERS that are the abusers? Is that it?

 

BUNK.

[rocio]

Enigmatika, do you have any sort of training or knowledge in statistics? Do you know what this means:

 

"The analysis was conducted using fixed effects methods to control for observed independent variables as well as all unobserved time invariant variables. Dummy variables were constructed for corporal punishment to allow for potential nonlinear effects. "

 

...You highlighted this, as if it's supposed to prove that the study was rubbish. Thiis describes sound statistical methods.

[AwdreeHpburn]

ah...... no. What you are to infer from that is that casual studies produce not so solid results. And that last line doesn't say that single white mothers are the abusers it said that their..

 

"results were consistent" (

"... with claims (

 

".... that spanking causes aggression for SOME children (namely,) (

 

"..but" (THIS STUDY) "provided evidence to contradict, or falsify, this hypothesis for several other subgroups of children."

 

So - I guess I'm inferring what it says.

 

In this particular study, boys who grow up being spanked by a single white mother show more aggression than the other kids who took part in that study, who don't have that living situation.

 

So what's your point? Does that rule out the possibility that spanking causes aggression?

[Enigmatika]

Thiis describes sound statistical methods.

It describes a lot of BUNK ...read it again.

 

So what's your point?

Unlike yourself....I am more than willing to DISCUSS Both SIDES of the argument ....and still hold rather strongly that your assertions re: corporal punishment are Incorrect. As the studies demonstrate.

 

You were the first to scream "Abuse"....much earlier in this thread I posted a study linking the INCREASE in CHILD ABUSE with the DECLINE in the use of spanking....which is the greater EVIL...so to speak?

 

EDIT: Under my umbrella....I took a great deal of stats in Uni too....the data is pure rubbish to start with. With the "correct" dummy variables I could claim that feeding Pandas dried plums promotes their ability at break dancing.

You have to remember that statistics is more of an art than a science.

Precisely.

[rocio]

It describes a lot of BUNK ...read it again.

 

I don't need to read it again since I understood it perfectly the first time. Applied statistics is what I have my training in and it's what I do every day at work.

 

You have to remember that statistics is more of an art than a science. To someone who doesn't have a background in it, it can sound very shaky. But I'm telling you, as far as statistical analysis goes, this is about as solid as it gets.

[CaptainPlanet]

If it is published in a journal its methodology is generally sound, they go through a system of reviews by experts before it gets published. Thats what I thought anyway, correct me if I am wrong.

 

but I'll say it again - doesn't it just depend on the kid ?

[rocio]

but I'll say it again - doesn't it just depend on the kid ?

 

Yes, good discipline always requires flexibility. You're dealing with people, not robots.

 

I personally think that those kids who respond best to physical punishment are the ones most likely to be scarred by it but anyway.. I think this thread has run it's course.

[Mythical_Suicide]

I think this thread has run it's course.

 

.. I agree

[AwdreeHpburn]

Unlike yourself....I am more than willing to DISCUSS Both SIDES of the argument

 

I don't know what having an opinion suggests to you then, but I do have an opinion on this topic. Perhaps I was open to the discussion long ago and have come to a conclusion.

 

 

....and still hold rather strongly that your assertions re: corporal punishment are Incorrect.

 

Wait.... I thought you just said you were open to discussing both sides? Already come to a conclusion then, have you?

 

 

As the studies demonstrate.

 

I don't think that IS what the study demonstrates. Least not the one you posted. I think what that study demonstrates is that of the people they studied, only those spanked by single white mothers showed signs of aggression. That's what I got from it anyway.

 

I've certainly been wrong before tho - way too many times so am not afraid of being wrong again. If that's NOT what it said, show me how you get something else.

 

You were the first to scream "Abuse"....much earlier in this thread I posted a study linking the INCREASE in CHILD ABUSE with the DECLINE in the use of spanking....which is the greater EVIL...so to speak?

 

Well - ok. Yeh, I'm saying that I think spanking is wrong, abusive and unnecessary. And I don't believe it teaches responsibility but rather punishment instead.

 

Not to say punishment isn't needed but uncoupled with the teachings of responsibility, its useless - IMO.

[mrmaximum]

I am thankful to know people that study statistics and fill me in on these so called reports. What people fail to see about these types of "research" is that they merely sample only a select few of people. If this surveyed the entire population of a particular country, i would be interested in reading what it has to say.

 

Theory and reality are two different things. Life doesn't exist in a lab or a test tube. This is what I meant by trying to figure out a better wat while Sprogly is acting up like a hurricane. The situation is sprialling horribly out of hand and your just going to stand by and watch after you have tried all sorts of techniques? "Well just keep trying!" is the answer we get.

 

I'm all for not using violence when children are involved as I too was beaten something along the lines of Aleadragonhawk, but when all else fails.....

[melrich]

I'm all for not using violence when children are involved as I too was beaten something along the lines of Aleadragonhawk, but when all else fails.....

 

Out of interest, what happens when the violence fails?

[mrmaximum]

If it is published in a journal its methodology is generally sound, they go through a system of reviews by experts before it gets published. Thats what I thought anyway, correct me if I am wrong.

 

but I'll say it again - doesn't it just depend on the kid ?

 

 

And what we all must understand is that nothing works 100% of the time with 100% of the people. Every situation is different and one variable can change the outcome of the situation, drastically. This is isn't new and everyone here does know this. My quesiton is why all of a sudden is this the ONLY issue where something DOES work without fail? Just because this works on these people, it simply doesn't mean it will work on those people over there.

[mrmaximum]

Yes, good discipline always requires flexibility. You're dealing with people, not robots.

 

I personally think that those kids who respond best to physical punishment are the ones most likely to be scarred by it but anyway.. I think this thread has run it's course.

 

And this will be my final post on this thread. You just said in right there MOST LIKELY. There aren't many absolutes in life, studies can show that smoking can LEAD to cancer in people, but everyone has a different physiology. Some can smoke for 10 years and develop complications, others can smoke their whole lives and nothing happens to them. My point, simple, we can infer that such and such MAY lead somewhere, but we will never really know until that happens. Some issues can affect people to a greater degree (ie, chances are if you get molested when you are younger, there is a very good probability that you are going to have issues when you grow up) but we still have people who have gone through some varying situations with mixed results.

 

What have people been saying here, that some do not abuse their children and may spank then when all else fails. What precisely is the problem with that? No one here has discussed unjustified beatings, and some have only used it when there was no other recourse.

 

I'm out, one of the things that I have learned in life is that one must be flexible if they want to live in this world. I happen to need my life highly organized in order to live, does that make enyone else who is more of a free spirit wrong? The question is DOES IT WORK FOR YOU!! Just because my wife spanked my stepson once in the last 4 years means that she is an absuer. I see, well then you should never even have ONE cigarette because you WILL get cancer.

 

Broad strokes can sometimes lead to issues in life, one needs to recongnize that as they continue on this journey.

[Enigmatika]

"We found no evidence for unique detrimental effects of normative physical punishment," Baumrind said in an invited address to the American Psychological Association annual meeting today in San Francisco.

 

"I am not an advocate of spanking," said Baumrind, "but a blanket injunction against its use is not warranted by the evidence. It is reliance on physical punishment, not whether or not it is used at all, that is associated with harm to the child."

...

The children of parents in the green zone who never spanked were not better adjusted than those, also in the green zone, who were spanked very seldomly, Baumrind said.

 

Studies of verbal punishment yielded similar results, in that researchers found correlations just as high, and sometimes higher, for total verbal punishment and harm to the child, as for total physical punishment and harm.

 

"Sticks and Stone"...

link removed

I don't think that IS what the study demonstrates. Least not the one you posted. I think what that study demonstrates is that of the people they studied, only those spanked by single white mothers showed signs of aggression. That's what I got from it anyway.

 

I've certainly been wrong before tho - way too many times so am not afraid of being wrong again. If that's NOT what it said, show me how you get something else.

provided evidence to contradict,

or falsify, this hypothesis for several other subgroups

of children.

...in other words...no effect.

Well - ok. Yeh, I'm saying that I think spanking is wrong, abusive and unnecessary. And I don't believe it teaches responsibility but rather punishment instead.

It doesn't teach punishment.

Crime = Consequences

Not about Abusing children into behaving.

 

Not to say punishment isn't needed but uncoupled with the teachings of responsibility, its useless - IMO.

Agreed.

Out of interest, what happens when the violence fails?

 

Call in the Social workers. mind you to date, has never failed, there is a big difference when corporal punishment is dealt out by one that is not a member of the family. The emotional triggers don't exist.

 

With the younger ones..I pick them up and hang them upside down by the ankles. We are all laughing...the offender is laughing and having a ball of a time. It's a strange and eerie feeling to be hung upside down. The bad behavior ends...later becomes a game.

 

 

or they get flying lessons...LOL...teacher has had enough...

OR...they run stairs till they get too tired to goof off.

Squats

the list is endless...

 

"Abusive"....ask the kids why they are laughing?

Gets the job done.

 

However willful desire to harm another is a slappable and spankable offense...and they Know it. So don't do it.

 

Verbal assaults/ punishment are far more damaging than the physical. Those words echo in their little heads far longer. What you think you are communicating to them, is not necessarily what they are receiving as they are not at that time receptive to you.

 

The little "sprogly's" of the lot are more often than not the brightest of the bunch....they just need a firm hand to set them off in a positive direction. Medicating them to dumb them down or hospitalizing them is NOT the answer. They LEARN nothing from that.

 

Discipline is NOT punishment. Punishment exists in the background long enough to remind them that their behavior must be controlled by themselves. Discipline is about correcting aberrant behavior, not choking off their individuality.

 

....tell me why I get sent the Monster children that noone else wants to deal with or have been kicked out of school?

 

I know what I'm doing...I used to be a "sprogly"..but I was not a bad kid at heart....

Child abuse is Dead Wrong.

Ineffective Discipline is Dead Wrong.

Each child/ sprogly is unique...Big Sprogly has very good insight into little Sprogly's mind set. ...and YEARS of experience with them.

 

Your methods are super fantastic...but Not for Sprogly.

 

My last post on this thread.

[RockabillyLove]

My daughter Scarlet-Rose gets told three times, then gets a smack.

 

She has fair warning, she is always told what she did wrong, why I don't want her to do it again, and if she wants to ignore my warnings three times in a a row, I see no other way. And usually after the second warning, when I remind her that she only has one warning left before a 'smack bum' {as she calls it}, she behaves and I rarely see the behaviour again.

 

For some children, smacking is unnecessary, and verbal discipline is enough.

But some kids almost beg for a good swat accross the butt sometimes.

[m12988]

My daughter Scarlet-Rose gets told three times, then gets a smack.

 

She has fair warning, she is always told what she did wrong, why I don't want her to do it again, and if she wants to ignore my warnings three times in a a row, I see no other way. And usually after the second warning, when I remind her that she only has one warning left before a 'smack bum' {as she calls it}, she behaves and I rarely see the behaviour again.

 

For some children, smacking is unnecessary, and verbal discipline is enough.

But some kids almost beg for a good swat accross the butt sometimes.

 

I think this is one of the better methods. I think many people just forget that all children are going to respond differently to different punishments. Thats why some people that think spanking is so terribly wrong think the way they do. They never had a child that responded to spanking.

[Sky_Ronin]

How can anyone bite their own child? That's a terrible act. The baby doesn't know any better. Why don't you just let your baby drink your breast milk from a bottle.

[Mythical_Suicide]

Why don't you just let your baby drink your breast milk from a bottle.

 

 

to some people that defeats the whole purpose of breastfeeding and/or some people can't pump.