Child-raising question

[EvaGina]

Ok, this WAS brought up by the god/religion/belief thread... but I do NOT want this to turn into a religion debate (doubtless some religious points will come up, but dont get all maahhhhh about them, ok?)

 

Ok... Is forcing your belief system onto your child, even if they activly reject it... abuse?

 

I think it is.

Once a child is old enough to make up his/her own mind... dont you think its inhumane to force (by use of blackmail, manipulation, what have you) YOUR moral system onto your child?

 

Using guilt or threats to make your child adhere to a moral code they do not agree with seems barbaric to me!!

 

 

There is a huge difference between guilting your chidren out of things like sex before marriage, than there is teaching them to not kill or hurt others.

 

thoughts?

[Spugly Fuglet]

*sits and Strugles at the gag someblock as put in his mouth*

[Locke2121]

In a way it can be a form of mental abuse...closely akin to brainwashing. But if you tell the child everything you know, then ALLOW them to make their own decisions when they are old enough..then its ok.

 

 

Speak up Spug!

[Batya33]

I think it depends. If part of your religious belief is not to hurt other people, then forcing the child not to hurt other people or punishing him for hurting other people is certainly not abuse. Same if part of your religious beliefs is that it is a sin to drink to excess or use illegal drugs. I also don't think it's abuse to require a minor child to follow the rules of the house which might include religious (ritualistic) meals with the family, dressing a certain way (i.e. some religions require conservative dress), etc. Once the child is an adult and living on her own, she can make her own choices about religion.

 

Forcing the beliefs is kind of silly since that is the best way to turn off the child, I would think.

 

any kind of control can become abusive taken to an extreme - but from your post I think you're implying that somehow religious beliefs are not as important as other values and thereforeeee the line is crossed earlier as far as abuse. I disagree with that.

[Sweet Buttabean Jellayroll]

hmmmmmm i'd say that you raise a child too believe the religion that you believe......and when that child gets on their own, you then tell them i want you too remain in the same religion but thats up too you im not going to force you, ive done the best i could its up too you

 

just like i would raise a child, i for one dont advocate homosexuality, BUT when they are grown enuff to make their own decision i'll tell them its agasint everything i believe and i didnt raise you too believe that and or do it but im not going to stop you, and i love you, but i dislike your lifestyle.......

[Spugly Fuglet]

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Need I say more

[Cimmie]

I was raised in a devout household by religious parents, which gave me a strong grasp of right and wrong, and ethics when considering other people: not lying, cheating, stealing etc.

 

It also made me quite judgmental and rigid in certain ways. As well as feeling sex is...naughty and I am a bad girl for wanting it. It took a little while to get over that. (But as Woody Allen once said when someone asked him if sex is dirty: 'only if you're doing it right' ;-))

 

I think being raised in a religion can give you an 'innoculation' against being taken in again by snake-oil salesmen when you are older. I lost my faith in my teens, like losing baby teeth. But I still have the ethics and a sense of the sacred. I can still read St. Matthew's gospel and appreciate the moral beauty it contains. And I can appreciate religious literature and paintings and so on.

 

I certainly don't believe raising a child with beliefs is 'child abuse'. When the child gets older he'she will naturally begin to question what he/she has been taught, and that is intellectually healthy.

[Krystal_Ivy]

agree compleatly. Very well said.

[EvaGina]

Im not just talking religion... Im talking anything... from being vegan to trying to force a child into a certain job area...

 

morals and self respect is one thing... but things like Batyas dress code example (dont get me wrong, I think 12 year olds dressing like street walkers is abhorrent) are just... oppression.

 

Batya, if you read my post, I say that teaching your kid to NOT hurt others is a good thing, but when it comes to personal decisions, things that only activley affect the child, then who is the parent to try and stop them from being the person they want to be?

 

You only have to read a handfull of posts on here to see GOOD kids being forced out of relationships becuase their parents dont want them dating someone who isnt of their faith... that IS a form of abuse, imo.

 

There is a fine line between exposing a child to information on things you are passionate about (be it animal rights, religion, art) and shoving it down their throats.

 

I also know that parents who do try to force their children into a certain niche really do want the best for them, they are trying to be good parents, but it does more harm than good.

[Sweet Buttabean Jellayroll]

if your talking morals i would raise my child to be respectful polite and if my child is a boy, i would teach him too always hold the door open for ladies......well everybody but especially ladies, and violence isent an option unless you really have to, if theres a way to escape take it......

 

but when hes on his own, i would like for him to continue that....but if he dosent want too then im not going to keep reminding a grown man to do those things, its up to him he has to live his life tha way he wants to

 

if i was rasing a daughter, i would tell her to smile and always look approachable.......and dont spread your legs for anyman.....i'll tell her to wait until marriage but thats not commen so i'll just say wait until you find the one that you KNOW will appreciate you and your basket walls.......and dont use your body use your brain........

 

thats about it.........hopefully i wont have to do this, cz i do not want kids..........never have

[Batya33]

Well, yes I did read your post and you seem not to be talking about religious beliefs and practices but just those practices that in your opinion only effect the child and not the family. By doing that kind of selection your whole question is improperly biased in my opinion. In my family, certain religious rituals went hand in hand with morality and values - that you may not agree is simply your opinion, but to label someone who asks a child to follow the rules while living with the family as abusive just because it is a religious belief is unfair, in my opinion.

 

You're obviously anti-religion so thereforeeee of course you're going to label it as "brainwashing" or abusive at the drop of a hat. Perhaps you can look further into the underpinnings of these rules and rituals and see that most of them are based on furthering morality and positive values. Perhaps not your sense of morality and values however.

 

If a teenager wants to date and the particular religion doesn't permit dating, then that teenager has the option of dating when he/she is old enough to live on his/her own or to move in with a relative who is not religious, etc. I think parents have a right to have a child follow the house rules whether religious or otherwise as long as it does not include physical or emotional abuse. I do not consider most religious rituals like dressing a certain way, not dating, eating certain foods but not others, participating in a family meal, not using electricity on certain days, to be abusive in the least.

 

I do think the way a child behaves religiously affects the family. If parents are trying to set an example for their children and one child doesn't abide by the rules, the other children will get confused.

 

In my experience children thrive on structure and where the parents have rules and limits - and that might include a dress code or certain restrictions on activities based on religious or other beliefs. I think that's fine.

[EvaGina]

^^ What if these kids do things you prohibit OUTSIDE of the house?

You seem to be taking this far too personally Batya... perhaps take a step back if you are going to accuse me of being anti-religious or take this thread to a level I have specifically stated I dont want it to get to?

(for the LAST time, I am not against religion, I am against biggotry, abuse, and taking advantage of people who dont know better, not to mention harassment)

 

-nods-

exactly teaching your kids to be kind to others (without being a doormat) is a given, Im talking about other, less cut-n-dried things.

 

What I suppose I am saying, is that a lot of people seem completely unable to understand that their kids arent mini-copies of them... yet they try to force them to walk a path unatural to them...

 

"telling" them to not open their legs isnt helpfull... teaching your child to have respect within themselves, is. There are plenty of examples of kids being pushed down a certian path by their parents, and they just go off the rails. If circumstances chage (go and live with another parent or something) who is more sympathetic, and say "I dont like it, but I will make your chosen environment as safe as possible", the kid is then empowered and chooses to STOP sleeping around/ doing drugs/ whatever.

 

I dno, it seems common sense to me to treat your kids with more respect, it gets better results with less stress on both sides (obviously, with a kid that is rejecting your chosen lifestyle).

[Sweet Buttabean Jellayroll]

i wouldnt be pushing her...........i'd tell her dont open your legs for just anyone

 

imma do what my mother did 2 me.......

 

she told me Jay, if you have sex with the wrong woman, your penis will crumble up and fall off and she showed me a picture of one that crumbled up n fell off, so she told me make a decision its up to you...she cared about my health and wellbeing but she also said its up to you.....

 

she also told me i could have sex just as much as i want to, but if i get a girl pregnant then she expects me too find full time employment and a place to live within the following month, or she was going to kick me out of the house....

 

see with my fam, they want you too do right but their not going to force you its up too you at the end of the day........

 

i would do my best too educate my children about the dangers of this life and i would be praying hard that they dont fall into the trap but after awhile its up to them, they have to make the decision. i would talk to them daily.....just like my parents did me, they told me jay u get caught in the wrong woman u gonna be ass out in the street begging for change.......take my words and use them son, its what my mom said, she never forced me too do anything........

 

as far as drugs, they told me........you get it in your system, its going to shut down...and your going to die........

 

 

 

thats just what i would do if i were to have children

[EvaGina]

I agree halfway... I mean, saying "this is what I expect (to a point, of course) and these are the consequences if you deviate" is perfectly rational...

 

But to maliciously manipulate your children into certain behaviour that has nothing to do with the running of the household, or with anyone but the child... I cant begin to describe how sick it makes me feel.

 

I dont agree with lying to your kids either. I would show my kids what CAN happen if you get an STD, but I would also tell them how to try and avoid such things IF they decide to have sex. You know? Same with drugs.

[melrich]

Yes I think what you do is give your kids information but ultimately they should be allowed to decide how they are going to use that information.

 

We are all humans so naturally the information we make available to them is going to have a personal bent, Jewish parents are probably not going to give their kids the Koran to read.

 

But I agree that forcing a kid to adopt your own beliefs or your own habits or your own interests is not the best approach. Give them the information and the freedom to interpret it.

 

Fact is, kids are the ultimate conformists. Almost no matter what you do, your own beliefs, interests and values will have enourmous influence on them despite yourself.

[Jeffrey2095]

I catch myself saying things my dad said every other day...

 

Jeff

[Batya33]

I agree with Melrich - very well put, thanks. To the OP - my impression is that you are not in favor of organized religions and indeed have hostilities toward it. Your initial post reflected that and the bias tainted the discussion. That is my interpretation with which you can disagree.

[EvaGina]

I have told you more than once you are wrong Batya...

I think it was your bias that was reflected in what you read, not what I posted at all.

Yes I think what you do is give your kids information but ultimately they should be allowed to decide how they are going to use that information.

 

We are all humans so naturally the information we make available to them is going to have a personal bent, Jewish parents are probably not going to give their kids the Koran to read.

 

But I agree that forcing a kid to adopt your own beliefs or your own habits or your own interests is not the best approach. Give them the information and the freedom to interpret it.

 

Fact is, kids are the ultimate conformists. Almost no matter what you do, your own beliefs, interests and values will have enourmous influence on them despite yourself.

exactly what I think!! and perfectly put

Its about teaching and freedom, not force and oppression.

[Batya33]

Thanks for sharing. There's no wrong or right, however. I have my opinion of your post - it's bias and the text. You have yours.

 

We have different understanding of "force" and "oppression" for example when it comes to religion.

[EvaGina]

Thanks for sharing. There's no wrong or right, however. I have my opinion of your post - it's bias and the text. You have yours.

 

We have different understanding of "force" and "oppression" for example when it comes to religion.

 

and I am not talking about force and oppression to do with religion, its force and oppression to do with parenting.

 

Is that such a difficult concept to understand?

 

I dont appreciate the de-railing the thread with agendas. But I should have put this in the parenting thread, come to think of it... who do I nag to do that?

[Batya33]

Thanks for sharing, EvaGina. I am sorry you misunderstood my previous post and that you believe I misunderstood yours. That can be a problem with text on a page, particularly about the complicated and often sensitive issues you addressed in your original post.

[EvaGina]

and I am not talking about force and oppression to do with religion, its force and oppression to do with parenting.

 

Is that such a difficult concept to understand?

 

I dont appreciate the de-railing the thread with agendas.

 

its not really up for discussion Batya... want to dicuss the topic at hand?

 

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^^ both tell how an open, respectfull parenting style, with clear boundries is the most effective for all parties.

although obviously every parent/child relationship is different to a degree.

[DN]

Moderator Note: Please keep posts on topic and respectful.

[strongerthanever]

I was always careful about this kind of subject. I don't consider myself religious but rather spiritual. I try to raise my children by example not words. As they get/got older if they want to go to church, they can go to the one of their choosing. I myself prefer not to attend a church.

However, there are family rules that we all have to abide by. Treat each other with respect, do not lie, steal, cheat,etc., and help with chores. There is no such thing as "mans work vs womans work" it is everyones resposibilty as a family to care for everyone and everything to the best of each ones ability.

 

And I'm sorry, but I believe each parent is responsible for the raising of their family regardless of what others might agree or disagree with. I may not personally agree with how my siblings or neighbors or even my friends are raising their family, but I respect them and their choices.