Living Together Before Marriage - Your opinions please!

[ImThatGirl]

Good points shes2smart!

[RayKay]

Batya,

 

You asked if I would have children outside of being married. I am not entirely sure why you asked me that from my post because I did say that marriage was important to me & him, but at this time we are not taking that step for the reasons I mentioned, and we do not have plans for children for a few more years if I am able too (there are some reasons I may not be able to have some of my own, or I may choose not too because of some hereditary risks).

 

So, this is purely hypothetical answer really.

 

For myself personally, I want to wait to have children for a while longer yet, and given our own personal timeline, it would appear that would not happen until after marriage. Myself personally, I guess that would mean that I would want to be married first.

 

I do know couples whom did not marry by choice and have had children, and appear to have healthy relationships and children, but of course that is just from an outsider looking in.

 

Of course there are also going to be situations where it is not healthy for the children, but I also know marriages where the environment is not healthy for the children, so I still come back to that belief that marriage does not make a situation healthier, or more stable, than one where it is not. Yes, it may be more difficult legally to exit the relationship, but it does not guarantee that it is more stable, or healthy than one where apparently one has the "freedom" to leave. I know my family life growing up was far healthier and more stable with my unmarried mother and stepfather, than it was when my biological dad was still married to my mother anyway.

 

That does not mean that is the case for everyone, and personally I think that whatever your belief when it comes to this is important to you for your own reasons, as mine are for mine.

 

I am not against marriage, not by a long shot. What I am against is the ideas that sometimes people seem to have that marriage somehow brings about this automatic "guarantee", or that somehow it is automatically more stable, or safer than living together. What I do feel against is ideas I sometimes see that marriage is the "end goal" rather than part of the process of your life as a couple.

 

And sometimes when I see people whom had negative experiences living together with someone, I wonder if that was really because they chose to live together without being married, or if there was something fundamentally missing in the relationship in the first place.

 

And I do believe that stats about how living together first leads to more divorce and so forth are generalizing in an objective manner, about situations where there may be so many subjective factors that are not reflected in the "stats". There are many reasons that people choose to get married, or not, or choose to stay married rather than divorce, that cannot be simply reduced to whether they lived together first or not.

 

I think sometimes people fall more into the idea of marriage, rather than the reality is of it. I absolutely believe that if one partner wants it, and the other does not, it is fine to decide it is time to walk away rather than be miserable staying around. In fact it is the right thing to do as marriage won't change someone whom is not in it in their heart. There was a poster on here, whom used to complain her partner would not marry her after several years. Truth was he was not committed in his heart and did not want it, she pressured anyway as she wanted to be "protected" and he finally proposed, and has not changed his negative treatment of her at all, I think she expected marriage would change it but he still does not show that "commitment" despite being married to her.

 

I am a big believer in marriage, all I am saying is that COMMITMENT itself is not something that is created by nuptials and the exchange of rings. It is something that comes LONG before you ever take that step; and if it is not there BEFORE marriage, it won't be after.

[Batya33]

Thanks for sharing and I wish you all the best!

[anggrace]

Obviously there are legal differences in married/nonmarried couples. I guess thats what I meen by paperwork.

[caro33]

As with several of the posters (and the OP I think) my view has changed over time. I'm not absolutely sure why, but I do feel confident in my perspective even if I can't back it up with hard science.

 

I do think that living together without a commitment along the lines of a marriage-type promise or ceremony is more likely to mean that marriage is not forthcoming, and particularly so as the living together period stretches into years and years. However the causality is not clear - perhaps it's the non-marriage types who choose to live together in the first place and so there's little reason to suspect they will miraculously want to marry later on.

 

As per the other thread re marriage which I posted on today (by anggrace) I do think that marriage as a concept is a better guarantee of commitment for pretty much the obvious reasons. However that is not to say that the reality is often quite different.

 

The studies that have been quoted here are well known, and I think do reflect some messages worth listening to. Yes all stats are flawed but that doesn't mean you ignore them.

 

After I hit 30 or so, and after my 10 year live-in relationship just crumbled with no warning, I rewired my brain on this. No way would I settle into shared living arrangements with a romantic or sexual partner unless we had made a solid commitment to our future together, and marriage happens to represent that commitment. This from a commitment phobe who always thought marriage was a crock.

 

Having said that, my partner and I spent most nights together before we were married, but just in one or other of our houses. So it's worth differentiating what we mean by 'living together'. I guess I mean shared assets, nowhere to use as a bolthole. If we were talking a more traditional no staying over, no sex before marriage situation I have a completely different view. I am a strong believer that one should know what one is buying before one signs the lifelong contract.

[EvaGina]

In New Zealand, de-facto partners of three years or more have the same legal rights as married or civil union-ed couples

 

I wouldnt want to marry someone I hadnt lived with.

[Batya33]

I agree that there is an important emotional and psychological difference between living together and spending every night together but maintaining your own apartments.

[Momene]

Sorry I haven't read through the other replies but here's my 2 cents worth:

 

With few exceptions, most of us know what the general expectations ofd marriage are: life commitment, etc.

 

To me, many (most?) forms of living together are different. The only time I ever lived with someone without being married was with my first wife. It was with the stated objective of marriage within the year and involved joint bank accounts and mortgage.

 

I've seen loads of messages from people who are living together where one is pressing for marriage and the other is trying to resist.

 

My advice is that when you live together, you should draw up a list of expectations and even rules, like financial arrangements and even how often you will see friends/family without each other. Although this may sound harsh and unromantic, these are the sorts of things that can backfire on you later. You CERTAINLY need to agree if either/both of you have any expectations of eventual marriage and agree on a time period.

[dogheadma]

I personally couldn't agree with you more. In my eyes, marriage dosen't have anything to do with romance, (although I realize that most women definitely do not see it that way, and that's fine too) it is simply a business arrangement.

[Batya33]

I personally couldn't agree with you more. In my eyes, marriage dosen't have anything to do with romance, (although I realize that most women definitely do not see it that way, and that's fine too) it is simply a business arrangement.

 

But that's just your view of marriage, not a fact. You can write your own vows that contain romantic promises, you can renew your vows, some people view that level of commitment as romantic or enhancing romance, etc. Many legal contracts have meaning beyond just the words. Take house ownership - many people have emotional connections to their home even though owning a house is just a business transaction.

[dogheadma]

I wasn't stating it as a fact. Just my 2 cents.

[redrose85]

I was in a 3 year live-in relationship previously, and since that disaster, I have decided never to live with someone again, unless I am married to them. I feel very strongly that this is the right thing for me. I may consider living with someone while we are engaged, but ONLY for financial reasons if it is really needed. ie: in 2 years my bf and I are most likely going to be going to school at the same uni in the same town, that costs more to live in. For that reason, we may wind up living together, but I seriously doubt it. I have been living in my own place now with no room-mates or boyfriends for the past 4 months, and am not willing to give it up. My boyfriend and I both need our "bachelor" time and value it, but we know that we'll be headed down the path to marriage one of these years

[mike_chppr]

This thread has been enlightening. I didn't live together before marriage, I think mostly because her parents would have thrown a fit and as far as they knew we wern't having sex. We did have religious convictions about the commitment. And I think that stuck us through some miserable years. I think realisitcally we would have made it 3 years without the religious conviction and the fear of telling her parents that she was unhappy in marriage and wanted out. I in some ways wanted out, and I think that is why I'm OK with it so quickly. I was attracted to so many other women, and I felt it was only a matter of time before I cheated on my wife. That is part of why I volunteered for Iraq is to get away from my life and not cross that bridge.

 

Now, I've only lived by myself for a week, it is the first time I have lived by myself without a roomate in my life. It is me time. I'm prepping to have someone live with me if someone special comes into my life, things like buying a queen sized bed and two bedside tables, intentionally keeping one empty. I'm not looking for a serious relationship for at least 12 to 18 months, but I figure I'll start dating in 6 to 8 months. And like was mentioned I think sex is a huge step in a relationship, but moving in is different altogether. I think it is very similar to the flip side of the coin. When my STBX and I decided to get a divorce, in our minds we were divorced right then! Wrap up the technical details and move on. Yes it hurt, I think it may have hurt less as I had only been back from Iraq for two months and we hadn't readjusted to one another yet. When you move in together, you can have the plan that it is a long term reltionship with the commitment to one another that is sincere outside of some governmental papers. It can be just like a marriage, and can work. Look at Lesbian and Gay long term relationships for proof of this. I think going through divorce your concept of marriage is forever tarnished a little bit, you grieve that it was not a lifetime commitment as you had promised and expected. We both gave it our best shot and knowing the outcome we would do it all over again. So now what am I looking for. I want to develop sexually, and I guess I've never quite thought of doing that outside of having someone move in with me. After reading through all of these posts, I'm leaning towards marriage before moving in. Pregnancy is not an issue as I have been fixed. If I were to have children in this process, I think most certainly that I wouldn't have someone move in without a Marriage License from the court. There is something about that commitment. If you are committed in your head to spend the next half decade with someone, then that will be what it is. If you are commited to growing old with someone that is what it will be. Now if you are unhappy with those commitments it makes them easier to execute in the five year plan and the concept of growing old and bitter with someone is way worse than growing old and happy with no one. So that commitment can be strained, I think along with commitment you need to pursue happiness together, both short term and long term. So moving in together as a commitment to grow old and happy with one another is very different from moving in together for companionship.

 

It is interesting that arranged marriages are brought up here on these boards. In Iraq, arrangements are the norm. I guess the catch is that it is usually your cousins that you are being arranged with. In Iraq there is divorce and there are men with more than one wife (4 is the limit from the Koran). One of the guys joked with us on patrol is that he had figured out how to have 5 wives.... punch line.... he divorced his first one. I think there must have been 30+children running around inside his yard. But all of them seemed happy. Even the divorced woman who was fine with her living arrangements. But more on the arranged thing. Lets use the story of two of my interpreters. Scorpion and Mongoose Maj.

Scorpions parents were divorced and he lived mostly with his mom. His dad lived about an hour away he spoke english and had been a new iraqi soldier with the new iraqi army. He spoke english so well, that the team prior to us were able to get him interpreters pay. so he started making 3X as much. There was a girl in his hometown who was an english teacher he was in love with her and had tried to go through the process of working out an arrangement in his favor. So he has to tell his mother and sisters he has some interest. Then she goes about the process of connecting with the girls mother and seeing if the interest is mutual. Not so much as the girls interest, but the families interest. So the girls family does an investigation of the boys family. His dad was a jerk and didn't want to come down to interview with his love's family so they denied his mother and sisters efforts. They soon developed a relationship on the phone, but wouldn't be seen with one another, an assured death sentence to the relationship and a scar on the families reputation. Well about 8 months later they gave it a go again and his father finely went down to meet the family. Once the families agree that it is a match the womans family has a month to request public information regarding the integrity of Scorpion and his family. So after the month is up the womans father can still bow out. Then face to face the womans father will tell Scorpion. So we were asking him if he was getting married and he was like I don't know yet!, Then there was a * * * *e thing where no weddings could happen during the month and Ramadan and Asura. He finally was getting married. So we are hazing him like man you are going to get laid man. Granted he hasn't ever masterbated, he has only had wet dreams, and that is a part of his clenliness before God. I had some lube and I asked him to put a drop of lotion on his fingers and feel what it feels like he did it, paused and then totally flipped, "Is that jack off in a bottle." I told him it wasn't, but it helps this that and the other.... Yes I had a bottle of lube in Iraq, Sandy Palms was a little on the S&M side. So he got married, came back and we were like so did you... Nope they are doing a trial. So basically she moves in with him as his wife, they have a ceremony and everything. But they do not have sex for a whole month. This is a cultural thing so that she is still a virgin if things don't work out between them. And then the story goes, he got laid and I was the Sexual instructor on the art of licking kiwi with a wedge taken out of it. I also gave him Ian's Book She comes first. He asked me so many questions, like he didn't realize that it would be kind of like "meat" granted he is translating from Arabic in his head to english so that is a fairly good description. Anyways they Love each other, their marriage was arranged, and he picks out western lingerie and I send it to him through the coalition mail. Outside she is covered, but not as much as some. She wears something over her head but not totally covering her whole face. They like the fact that they can speak english around their families and no one knows what they are talking about. He bought a house right after the wedding, and financially he is stretched very thin, even on an interpreters salary which is almost 12X the national average.

 

Mongoose, that's my buddy right there. Think of an Arab that looks and sounds like a Columbian Drug Dealer with a bad attitude. Heart of Gold, but that is his first impression. You realize very quickly out there that your sterotypes of what certain facial expressions or nonverbal body language mean is very different if not contradictive to what you would expect in Amercia. Mongoose spoke great english but when he went to go get certified as an interpreter he got in an argument with the person doing his interview. For some reason the Amercian interpreter thought he was from a different region. He told them he was from South Iraq. The american terp told him that he had learned Arabic 100% in american schools, but Mongoose was sure that his dialect was from southern Bagdad and that he was origionally from Iraq. So they had a rif between them and somehow he got put on the blackout list. He had to get a pass onto american bases before he could be hired. So we had to go to the Base Instalation Commander to get a waiver, and so he would always have to be with one of us, which he was. That infuriated me but that was a whole different story. Well, one month he comes back and is like Do you have Playboy?, I was like No, he was like the other team had it! And he figured somehow we did to. OK I had two to four magazines. Well he came to borrow them and I never got them back. Realize that Maxim magazine is considered porn for their culture... I don't know how to respond to or explain how they react, but it is out there. So anyway Mongooses background is that his dad married two women, and abandoned his mother for the younger one. So he is very jaded on the whole two wifes concept. And we saw repeated incidences of how this really affected their culture in a negative manner. Other than the one with 4+1 wifes. The other aspect of Mongoose is that he was ADDICTED to pornography. Guys doing guys and girls and every which way it didn't matter to him. His priority was to get the satalite set up and tuned into a spice channel type slappen and tappen. Come to find out he was not a virgin, he had been with 9 * * * * * * in Bagdad on separate occaisions and had no intent of scaring his familes reputation by disclosing this. Well Mongoose's family set him up with this girl. He went through a similar arrangement as Scorpion with the familes. But here, his mother got with her mother and discussed an arrangement, and then her mother went and talked to her about marrying him. And she agreed then back through her mother through mongooses mother and then an investigation goes on without Mongoose knowing about it. So he came back and was like I'm getting married next month. And then he went on his pornography binge, he watched and watched and every spare moment he wasn't translating he was watching. He had gotten an external hard drive from a Marine that was loaded with hours and hours of it. He also married with the whole ceremony and went through the one month trial without sex. This preserves her virginity. Since men in Iraq don't always live at home the woman moves in with his family, this trial period is for her to get interconnected to his familes way of doing things. If for some reason it is horrendous somehow she can leave and go back. Now in her case it was his cousin (as it is with most marriages in Iraq). So she was only about 2 blocks from her origional family, (Yes, their family really is that large, no birth control and a culture that loves sex.) He was married and then we came back to the US and he since has a baby on the way.

 

The MAJ, well there is this Major, I'm going to call him M so that no identifying info is out on him. He married his cousin in a similar arrangement to Mongoose, they have been married for 5 or 6 years, and have a daughter, his relationsip with his wife is very puppydoglike, they send cell phone graphics such as beating hearts and Cupid shooting arrows and he adores her. He did not no anything about her before they were married, as he would say it AineeeTing about her. But she is so good to him. He has tons of Islamic religious parables, and he is a man that has a level of integrity of no one that I have ever met in my life. Now, he is in the Iraqi Army and he is in constant fear of someone killing his wife and daughter while he is in on duty. He is one of the most professional soldiers in the entire Iraqi Army and if I could pull any strings I had I would move him, his wife and daughter to the states to live with me so that they are not slaughtered when this thing boils over.

 

Pictures, Scorpion And Mongoose showed me pictures of their wives. Realize they will not even show a picture to their bestest friend, as he may lust after her and cause problems between them. This kind of conservatism is chosen by the woman how secretive she will be for her spouse and his reputation in the public and before God. the MAJ never showed me a picture, but it meant a great deal to them that I brought a picture of my wife and house and dog and showed them, what they would consider to be a very personal thing, "what my wife looks like"

 

I hope that gives some insight into arranged marriages in the context of a third world country. I was one of the origional Iraqi Army Advisors over there, and as crazy and scary as it was, I would want to do no other job, I don't think it would be as fulfilling and rewarding even though I have feelings that I wasted a year of my life over there as most if not all of my efforts were thwarted by corruption. The Sadam video was just another example of the incompetencies that I delt with on a daily basis with the Iraqi Government System. They are Soverign, they will do as they wish, but this should be on the Off Topic board.

 

Later,

mike_chppr

[redrose85]

I wish I had time to read all that right now. maybe later