Surprised by Possible Avoidant Personality

[J. Marks]

Me (early-mid 40’s male) and her (call her “M”, late 40’s female).  Both divorced once.  Live nearby each other in a major metro area on the east coast.

We met via online dating app, and had a few dates early on and a first real kiss about a month into dating.  She spoke openly about have had very few sexual partners in the past, and that she only did in the context of a committed relationship.  She also said that she was unsure of what she wanted, but that she did feel that she was currently living her best life.  She claimed to be very close to her Christian faith.  Our mutual love for travel was a binding factor.  My sexual experience is considerably greater, but I am strictly monogamous in all my relationships once past any physical contact beyond a peck on the cheek.

At about the two month mark, I was heading out of country for a brief trip and just before I left, she had mentioned missing going to one of her favorite countries over in Europe.  Given that we both love to travel, I suggested that we both go over the upcoming holidays.  She said yes, and suggested we get separate hotel rooms as part of the arrangements.  Respecting her wishes that were presumably driven by her faith and morals, I readily agreed.

It was also at this point that we had “the talk” and she reiterated that she didn’t know what she wanted, that she was working on herself and her need for external validation, and that she didn’t sleep with people if she wasn’t in a committed relationship.  I thought that was fine, and said that it should happen organically.  She agreed enthusiastically.  I also said that I was not into situations where people are dating other people.  I did not use the term “exclusivity” explicitly but I felt my intent was understood and she nodded without saying anything.

We continue dating, seeing each other regularly and with much affection.  She was extremely warm in her affection, but had a hard limit on intimacy that didn’t extend beyond some passionate kissing, which I attributed to a combination of her faith and her feeling that we hadn’t hit the level of “committed” in her eyes yet.  This continued through the next two months until our trip together at the four month mark.

We leave for the trip, and arrive at the hotel and retire to our separate rooms.  I did want to use the trip to bring our relationship closer, but I absolutely did not have a goal to have sex or anything like that on the trip.  But I did want to move forward as the last three months were roughly the same.  

While on the trip, one night after a lovely dinner, I drop her off at her room and she gives me a tender, long, passionate kiss.  It is here that I tell her that I love her, and that she just needed to hear that from me, nothing else.  She was aghast, sort of laughed, and quickly retreated into her room.  I left it alone.  My words were true, and I thought maybe she just needed to know that to help her get past whatever block (I thought “signs of commitment”) was keeping us from moving to a more serious relationship.

The next morning, things are a bit awkward.  We are sitting after having breakfast together, and I ask, “This may be a silly question, but are you still seeing other people?”  She replied “yes” and seemed to be surprised that I was even asking.  She then went on to say that we covered this as part of “the talk.”  I was obviously hurt but I did not get angry or pout or otherwise react negatively, as my dignity is a big deal to me.  As matter-of-factly as possible, I did ask if her other relationships were like this one, and she said that she definitely spent the most time with me, and that was most affectionate with me.  She then said that I had made things awkward, and asked what we should do next.  I said that it didn’t need to be awkward, and that we can take this whole situation and set it aside for the time being and to try to enjoy the rest of the vacation.  However, when we returned home, that we would go our separate ways.  She agreed, and we both played this part over the remaining days of the vacation.  Holding hands, laying against each other, kissing, etc.  Unless she was a true professional, none of her affection was fake.

The subject comes up intermittently over the remainder of the vacation, with on the last day her saying “this will be our last interaction.”  I said that unless she wanted to be exclusive, it would be.  We end up flying home, still with full affection, and even split a cab home together from the airport (her idea).  I get dropped off first, and she gets out and gives me a deep kiss, wishes me well, and departs.  As I head into my home, I get a text from her thanking me for being so great, and it has heart and kiss emojis, etc.  I reply with something similar and that is the end of our contact.

However, over the next few days this really eats at me.  In a moment of doubt, I send her a text asking if I had explicitly asked her for exclusivity would it have mattered.  A few hours later, she replies “no.”  I reply that I just wanted to make sure that we did the right thing, and I wish her well in the future.  She replies with similar well wishes.  I then reply with one final message, telling her that I want her to be happy, and that I hope that I am still around when she is ready for a relationship, but that I only want to be with someone that only wants to be with me.  She “hearts/loves” the message as a reaction.  That was the absolute last contact.

So - what the heck?  For one, I’m surprised how much this is still bothering me.  I’ve been rejected before and moved on just fine.  We hadn’t even slept together, so there wasn’t that heightened sense of bonding.  Why does this bother me so much?  I feel really naive.

I tried to rationalize what happened.  Maybe she’s strongly avoidant.  Maybe she’s insecure, hinted at with the external validation remark she made about herself, and likes attention from many men.  Maybe she just wasn’t that into me.  Any thoughts from the experts here?  I have no intent of contacting her again (and she said that she would never contact me), but if given the opportunity of an exclusive relationship with her, I would do it.

[Wiseman2]

23 minutes ago, J. Marks said:

.  She also said that she was unsure of what she wanted, but that she did feel that she was currently living her best life.  She claimed to be very close to her Christian faith.    I ask, “This may be a silly question, but are you still seeing other people?”  She replied “yes” and seemed to be surprised that I was even asking.  

Sorry this happened. She seems quite confused about trying to find "her best life"

So she doesn't want too much intimacy because of her faith until it's a committed relationship but she also doesn't want to be exclusive or in a committed relationship?

It seems like you dodged a bullet. She seems to be talking in circles and trite affirmations. 

[J. Marks]

19 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

So she doesn't want too much intimacy because of her faith until it's a committed relationship but she also doesn't want to be exclusive or in a committed relationship?

That is probably the crux of the source of why I am particularly bothered by all of it.  If it were simply that she didn't want a committed relationship with me, I could accept that pretty easily.  And maybe that is it, and I should tell myself that and leave it at that.  But it felt like we were so close to something special and that something else is the issue.

Of course, that something else is inside her, and any stated reason really doesn't matter.  The bottom line is that she isn't for me.

[Batya33]

I think she was making lame excuses for the reality that she simply wasn't that into you but enjoyed your companionship and the vacation sounded fun.  Are you sure she was divorced? Also a truly religious person wouldn't date around like that.  I'm sorry it didn't work out.

[J. Marks]

23 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I think she was making lame excuses for the reality that she simply wasn't that into you but enjoyed your companionship and the vacation sounded fun.  Are you sure she was divorced? Also a truly religious person wouldn't date around like that.  I'm sorry it didn't work out.

This is more or less where I landed - she enjoyed the companionship and did enough romantic/affectionate stuff to keep it going, and when I asked for more the cost/reward ratio wasn't there for her and she was perfectly fine with me breaking it off. 

Also agree on the "truly religious person" thing.  Thanks for the insight.

[J. Marks]

Of note, and she could have been saying these things as a way of "being nice," but she said her not wanting a relationship is all about her and "never about the guy," which is an odd thing to say to me versus "not about you" - it seems I'm not the first guy to run into this with her.  This also asked me if I was going to block and delete her as soon as I got home, and I said no.  Although she had previously talked about how she aggressively blocked exes in the past, she volunteered that she wouldn't either, and said that I should reach out to her any time if I wanted a companion (careful word choice, I think), but that she would never reach out herself. 

Coupled with the warmness of her previous affection towards me, all of that makes me think that she's a classic dismissive-avoidant.  Or maybe I'm overthinking, and she just wasn't that into me.  I go back and forth.  I'm probably trying to solve an insolvable puzzle.  And one with no reward for doing so.  But I feel like I need to get this into a final resting place.  I once heard that "confusion IS closure" when it comes to relationships as it doesn't matter, the person just isn't into you enough for whatever reason. I should try to glom onto that.

Thanks again all.

[MissCanuck]

I think she had a good time with you and enjoyed the attention and affection, but didn't have strong enough feelings to take things further with you. 

That's all. 

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, J. Marks said:

she wouldn't either, and said that I should reach out to her any time if I wanted a companion (careful word choice, I think), but that she would never reach out herself. 

She seems a bit stuck up. Like she dismisses men on whims but expects them to put her on a pedestal and be honored by her "companionship". 

Frankly deep down she seems damaged. Maybe from her divorce or whatever.

Her overuse of pseudo-philosophical sayings is also strange. Almost like she reads too many of those painted rocks in gift shops. 

Her words seem meaningless like "living life to the fullest" and other vapid and defensive self soothing. You definitely dodged a bullet.

Not sure what's going on in her mind, but my guess is some nasty past history or divorce and sort of protecting herself like a cactus. 

[Cherylyn]

You both agreed to go your separate ways so make it final.  No more contact.  Move on.

[shouldhavelearned]

You layed your cards out and she wasn't on the same page.

While it sucks, move on.

 

[J. Marks]

Oh, 100% no more contact.  That's a given - those were my terms and I'm sticking to them.  This is more of an post-mortem and ego repair session, and maybe a little of learning so I won't be as naive again.

I appreciate all the input, and it really does come down to a combination of a dismissive-avoidant that just wasn't into me enough.

 

[Jaunty]

I agree, you dodged a bullet.

I do wonder, though, why assigning a pop psychology label like, in this case, "Avoidant Personality,"  seems to be so important these days.

How about:  I found out a lot of things about her that made me realize that a relationship with her was a bad idea for me.

[J. Marks]

20 hours ago, Jaunty said:

I I do wonder, though, why assigning a pop psychology label like, in this case, "Avoidant Personality,"  seems to be so important these days.

I agree with your sentiment.  It was meant as short-hand, so that I could more easily convey a person's behavior with a term that many around here might know. 

That aside, all I really was hoping for was for people to agree with me so that I could feel better about it, i.e. it's not me, it's her.  

[itsallgrand]

I think it was unkind of her to go on that vacation knowing already that she didn't want to pursue anything more committed with you. She did know you were dating with the hope of finding a relationship. 

For next time, I'd beware the early things some people say as outs. Some are happy to go along for a ride with no intention of it going any where. "I don't know what I want" " I seek validation from others" and the like are little flags. But don't beat yourself up! You stayed true to yourself the whole way and that's what matters. 

[J. Marks]

1 hour ago, itsallgrand said:

But don't beat yourself up! You stayed true to yourself the whole way and that's what matters. 

Awww, thanks - I needed to hear that.

[catfeeder]

On 1/3/2024 at 8:17 AM, J. Marks said:

...we had “the talk” and she reiterated that she didn’t know what she wanted, that she was working on herself and her need for external validation,

At least she was consistent with being evasive. This ^^^ is the kind of talk I'd have up front, first meeting, to establish whether the two of us are pursuing dating for the same reasons. (Hah! Jargon would not be the same reason.)

First, I won't set up full dates with strangers from dating sites, and I don't know many people who still do that. I set a quick meet over coffee to check one another out. Some people set up 2 or 3 of these meets each week as drive-by non-dates on their way home from work.

I'd offer that I view myself as relationship material, and I'm dating to find a long term committed relationship. I'd ask whether he views himself the same way and if he's looking for the same thing. I'd regard anything short of a clear 'yes' as a 'no'. I'd thank him for his honesty, I'd be kind while we speak for a few more minutes, then I'd take off and 'next' him.

Someone not knowing what they want out of dating is a moving target. Someone who can't answer a simple question with a simple answer is not someone I'd date, much less offer a trip. I'd consider you to be a very nice man who just needs to learn how to screen out flakes. Decide what you want from dating, consider anyone with a purpose that isn't clear or doesn't align with yours to be a bad match, and allow bad matches to pass early.

Head high, and your next woman will be lucky to meet you.

[J. Marks]

13 hours ago, catfeeder said:

Head high, and your next woman will be lucky to meet you.

You all are the best, thank you so much!

By the way - Your signature is about the truest thing ever said on the Internet.

[catfeeder]

4 hours ago, J. Marks said:

You all are the best, thank you so much!

By the way - Your signature is about the truest thing ever said on the Internet.

Big thank you, J. I'm pasting it here for those on phones (where it doesn't show up).

Quote

Try backing off. It seems to be a well kept secret how many wonders occur and problems straighten out when we do nothing but leave someone alone.

I find this helpful and important, because I notice that most people tend to lean in with MORE persuasion or time or effort or pressure whenever something isn't clear or goes the wrong way rather than pulling back to gain a better perspective.

For example, let's say you'd met Ms. Evasive for a quick coffee rather than a full date. You've just told her, up front, that your purpose in dating is not to find casual dates or a companion, but rather, to seek a committed romantic relationship. Then you asked her whether she is dating for the same reason, and she said, "Oh, I don't know what I want, I'm in the process of finding myself..."

You could say, "That's a worthy goal. I think highly of you. I just don't believe that our goals for dating are aligned. If you ever decide in the future that a committed relationship is something you seek, you can certainly let me know." She would have likely said, "Well, I don't contact men, I allow them to contact me."

And from there, you could have thanked this woman for her honestly, told her it was a pleasure to meet her, and then, by leaving this woman alone, you could have devoted all that time to having met and dated and spent a lovely trip with a woman who actually "get's you"--someone with whom you enjoy simpatico and a shared purpose for seeing one another.

I wish that for you soon!

[J. Marks]

On 1/7/2024 at 12:37 PM, catfeeder said:

Big thank you, J. I'm pasting it here for those on phones (where it doesn't show up).

I find this helpful and important, because I notice that most people tend to lean in with MORE persuasion or time or effort or pressure whenever something isn't clear or goes the wrong way rather than pulling back to gain a better perspective.

For example, let's say you'd met Ms. Evasive for a quick coffee rather than a full date. You've just told her, up front, that your purpose in dating is not to find casual dates or a companion, but rather, to seek a committed romantic relationship. Then you asked her whether she is dating for the same reason, and she said, "Oh, I don't know what I want, I'm in the process of finding myself..."

You could say, "That's a worthy goal. I think highly of you. I just don't believe that our goals for dating are aligned. If you ever decide in the future that a committed relationship is something you seek, you can certainly let me know." She would have likely said, "Well, I don't contact men, I allow them to contact me."

And from there, you could have thanked this woman for her honestly, told her it was a pleasure to meet her, and then, by leaving this woman alone, you could have devoted all that time to having met and dated and spent a lovely trip with a woman who actually "get's you"--someone with whom you enjoy simpatico and a shared purpose for seeing one another.

I wish that for you soon!

Such great guidance - thank you.

As I let this fall away from my heart and mind, I thought about a few other things that were in hindsight red flags and I thought that I'd share for both others, and a record to myself.

She was attached to her pet in a way that was beyond most.  She also had a previous dog that had passed away which she referred to multiple times as "the love of her life" and had a memorial tattoo of.  I have two dogs myself that I care for dearly, but in hindsight this was maybe unhealthy.  Given that I sympathize with loving your pets, I sort of brushed this off at the time but I think this really was a sign of being unable to form healthy attachments to people.

She had seemed that she really cared for me.  In that final taxi ride home, she had taken my hand into both of hers and held it tightly in her lap the whole way.  Her Christmas present to me, which was thoughtful and given just days before this all unwound, was signed "Love, M" in the card.  But her complete refusal to commit and stop seeing other people, even at the end (especially at the end?) was just all so bizarre to me, and made it so much harder to just let go.  

It's been two weeks since the last text exchange in which I restated my needs and wished her well.  A few days ago I got an accident text from her with some random screenshots followed by a "Sorry, wrong person" with a laughing emoji.  I only responded with a thumbs-up on the "sorry" message.  Maybe it was truly an accident, maybe it was her putting out feelers.  I just don't understand.

 

[Batya33]

2 hours ago, J. Marks said:

Such great guidance - thank you.

As I let this fall away from my heart and mind, I thought about a few other things that were in hindsight red flags and I thought that I'd share for both others, and a record to myself.

She was attached to her pet in a way that was beyond most.  She also had a previous dog that had passed away which she referred to multiple times as "the love of her life" and had a memorial tattoo of.  I have two dogs myself that I care for dearly, but in hindsight this was maybe unhealthy.  Given that I sympathize with loving your pets, I sort of brushed this off at the time but I think this really was a sign of being unable to form healthy attachments to people.

She had seemed that she really cared for me.  In that final taxi ride home, she had taken my hand into both of hers and held it tightly in her lap the whole way.  Her Christmas present to me, which was thoughtful and given just days before this all unwound, was signed "Love, M" in the card.  But her complete refusal to commit and stop seeing other people, even at the end (especially at the end?) was just all so bizarre to me, and made it so much harder to just let go.  

It's been two weeks since the last text exchange in which I restated my needs and wished her well.  A few days ago I got an accident text from her with some random screenshots followed by a "Sorry, wrong person" with a laughing emoji.  I only responded with a thumbs-up on the "sorry" message.  Maybe it was truly an accident, maybe it was her putting out feelers.  I just don't understand.

 

I think if I were you I would reread this post and understand how much you are nitpicking, overthinking, overanalyzing. 

[Wiseman2]

3 hours ago, J. Marks said:

.  Her Christmas present to me, which was thoughtful and given just days before this all unwound, was signed "Love, M" in the card.  

It seems you were looking for the slightest glimmer of normalcy in a vast sea of red flags You dodged a bullet. Take a deep breath and be grateful you're free of this iceberg.