I thought I’d be happy/relieved if she found someone; turns out I’m sad

[Batya33]

I had this sort of knee jerk reaction. How convenient of her to do the We thing when it suits her like at a party where she can do that whole couple thing of “we brought flowers !” She’s “right “. It’s easier to be married /coupled off in many social situations.  You’re more automatically respected.  It’s silly. But true. So she reaps the benefits without having to walk the walk in private. Maybe I’m wrong. It rubbed me the wrong way. Glad you had fun playing footsies lol. WE have this similar private code at parties. It’s fun !

[Morello]

I agree with Batya, and given the history of your relationship with her, I think you should start getting prepared for this thing not going the way you expect (or want) it to go. Just leaving this relationship to naturally develop hasn't really led anywhere so far. 

She's getting what she wants out of it. Otherwise, I'm sure she'd have acted upon it. Are you getting what you want?

[NighttimeNightmare]

I dunno. Im getting a lot out of it or I wouldn’t spend my time with her 

the whole “social” couple thing is a newer development that happened slowly over time. Only recently has she been inviting me as her +1 to places, so ya, a lot has developed naturally on its own

she spends most of her free time with me, and me her. We’ve gotten really close in private as well, it’s not like she’s shunning me in private and then conveniently trying to use me as a social beard or something.  Everything we do now, in public and private, seems to be a “we” sort of thing these days 

tonight was good, she made me a really fancy dinner, got a cake, and a few gifts.  Just a quiet night with just us.  Stayed til midnight.  

all of this is developing in a steady consistent way that I enjoy. But also as I noted before, it is approaching a point where I need to be more direct about some things.

[boltnrun]

You've been saying you need to be "more direct" for weeks. How much longer are you willing to drag this out before you feel ready to say something? 

She may get tired of waiting for you.

[NighttimeNightmare]

It’s been a week, two weeks top. Because she and I only recently had that convo. I’m not going to just blurt something out, the energy in the room has to be ok for me to make a move 

at least now I’m willing to, before I wasn’t 

[Batya33]

58 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

It’s been a week, two weeks top. Because she and I only recently had that convo. I’m not going to just blurt something out, the energy in the room has to be ok for me to make a move 

at least now I’m willing to, before I wasn’t 

Sounds to me like a lot of excuses. It’s been months at least. Right?

[rainbowsandroses]

It appears to me she likes, even prefers, things just the way they are. 

Otherwise she'd be pushing or at least hinting for more.  Or "shyt testing" you in some form or fashion.  Or walking away. 

IF she's uncertain, she's enjoying this state.  

Why?  Who knows, perhaps like as was stated earlier, its 'safer' for her, emotionally.

But there could be many reasons. 

NN, I think you're doing the right thing by waiting for the 'right' moment, the right 'energy in the room' so to speak. 

It's also possible that moment will never come and you can both simply accept and enjoy things the way they are.

Other than you're not sexually intimate (which doesnt seem to bother you), you're intimate in other ways, mentally and emotionally.

There is no one right way to "do" relationships.  As long as you're both happy, that's all that matters.  

Happy Belated Birthday!  It sounds like it was lovely. 

 

 

[NighttimeNightmare]

36 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Sounds to me like a lot of excuses. It’s been months at least. Right?

Yes. It’s been months of me getting over my own issues and reservations. Now I’m at the point where I’m willing to do something. It was a process 

[NighttimeNightmare]

48 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

 

It appears to me she likes, even prefers, things, just the way they are

 

I think, in many ways, I do too. I know she doesn’t want to be pressured, or rushed, or expected to be anything. I’m the same way, I think that’s why we’ve been able to carry on like this. Yes, it’s a slow process, and I’m not expecting it to end in romance, but I know for a fact had she made a real move on me that called for too much intimacy earlier on, I am pretty sure I would have gone into my avoidant tendencies.  Intimacy is very new for me. I always found things to feel intimate in my own solitude, never with others.  So… I appreciate the process with her because I’ve been allowed to move at a pace that also works for me

is there another aspect to it where I get frustrated? Sure. Sometimes. But those are more surface reactions, and there’s so much more changing in the under-current.  

48 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

NN, I think you're doing the right thing by waiting for the 'right' moment, the right 'energy in the room' so to speak. 

It's also possible that moment will never come and you can both simply accept and enjoy things the way they are.

I think I am, too, and thank you for understanding that

 

theres actually been a few times in the past where I could have done it, but I wasn’t ready.  And maybe she wouldn’t have been either, but over the past months since the first time I ever posted about her, she’s changed a lot.  I mean I went from being a brat about a lot of things, not understanding the process and wanting immediate answers. I wanted more time with her, I wanted to hang out, I wanted to be with her. Well, I have all of that now. It was a process, but now it’s a routine. 
 

And it seems we’ve both gotten over certain reservations. I know I’m learning from her, and she’s learning from me. The other week she said to me “you’re teaching me not to care what people think.”  She used to be scared to cook for me, but now she does.  
 

there is just so much that’s changing and unfolding and had I pushed for something earlier I rly think it would have set back our connection. 
 

48 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Other than you're not sexually intimate (which doesnt seem to bother you)

It kind of does these days, sometimes.  But that’s a compartmentalized statement.  Like when we have really emotionally intimate conversations, I do tend to feel sexual towards her and then I get frustrated.  But I’d also only want to do that with her if she wanted to, that’s part of the attraction for me - a mutual desire  

there’s also this dynamic im recently picking up on where I feel like she would benefit from some sort of physically intimacy too.  not necessarily sexual, but just physical. Esp during an “argument,” I’ve noticed she wants closeness during disagreements, my inclination is to shut down and leave .  So that’s also something I’m trying to work on, being realistic with myself about my own availability for true intimacy   Not just allowing myself to b*tch about not having an “official” relationship or not being able to sleep with her when the feeling arises once in awhile  etc  I’m trying to change that.  
 

We actually got into something minor at the party and I just wanted to leave but instead when we got to her house I decided to do better, I sat her down and said “it hurts me when you do xyz” and explained why.  A part of me felt so stupid for saying this, I never have before with anyone.  But she responded with an apology and said she didn’t realize what that was doing to me and she will not do it anymore.  So now I’m learning “wow this person is really safe and it’s safe for me to express myself to and with her.”  Again, a process  

 

[rainbowsandroses]

28 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

We actually got into something minor at the party and I just wanted to leave but instead when we got to her house I decided to do better, I sat her down and said “it hurts me when you do xyz” and explained why.  A sort of me felt so stupid for saying this, I never have before with anyone.  But she responded with an apology and said she didn’t realize what that was doing to me and she will not do it anymore.  So now I’m learning “wow this person is really safe and it’s safe for me to express myself to and with her.”  Again, a process  

This^ is awesome NN, I got chills reading. I mean, that's what it's all about, isn't it?

Communicating, understanding, trusting, accepting and feeling safe enough to be yourself and express yourself in an emotionally safe environment.

When I read these forums and even in real life, I find that this is missing in so many relationships.

People resort to games, tests and various strategies to get what they need versus simply trusting your partner and being emotionally honest with them and having them accept you. 

THAT is true intimacy imo. 

That's awesome NN, please keep us posted! 

 

[Batya33]

That's fine and then you're willing to accept the risk that she'll be snapped up by another guy or try to snap up another guy which she is much less likely to do if you "put a ring on it" so to speak and make her yours and you hers.  

There are wrong -- ineffective let's say - ways to do romantic relationships in my opinion - IMO you're acting against your own best interest and choosing fear instead.   

You're prolonging it as a "process" but out of fear -the process is you getting over your fear rather than a productive process of you two interacting within an understanding that you two are a couple and not just when you bring flowers to a dinner party.  Just like it would have been ineffective for my husband to wait longer to put a ring on it -ask me to get back together -because it was very likely I'd have assumed -ok we spent all this time together, now he's leaving town for a couple of months -guess I was wrong and he's not that into me!

Luckily he didn't follow his friend's advice to wait a few months.  I most likely would have moved on.  I wouldn't have asked him to get back together I don't think (yes I guess I'd have been choosing fear too!).  And I was really scared when he asked -the fear was palpable -fear of messing up again! - fear from being surprised and overhwhelmed! I felt the fear -wallowed in it for about 30 seconds -then said YES.  

And please assume your dear friend may seek greener pastures -like I said things can change on a dime. 

All relationships are risky and you can increase or decrease the risks. You are choosing fear over connection. You call it a process so you can stall doing the thing you're really afraid of.

  That's a choice -and I don't buy "there's no wrong way" -depends on your goal and that determines whether your choices further the goal or not.  Certainly if you've now decided you don't see yourself as part of a couple with her then sure you're making a great choice -maybe look deep inside and see if the Man doth protest too much and all that.  

Good luck!!

[Wiseman2]

16 hours ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

 Im getting a lot out of it or I wouldn’t spend my time with her. she made me a really fancy dinner, got a cake, and a few gifts.  Just a quiet night with just us.  Stayed til midnight.  

Exactly. You enjoy each other a lot. There's no reason to jump her bones right now. All this pushing for "making a move" is counterproductive. She's not going to run off if you don't pounce on her.

In fact you seem to finally be showing some respect and growth by knocking off the sexting and lewd comments.

Please try to live in the present and enjoy life.  It's like you're already a couple and dating. It's just that you're struggling with sexual feelings. She'll let you know when and if she wants that, directly or indirectly. 

[Batya33]

2 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Exactly. You enjoy each other a lot. There's no reason to jump her bones right now. All this pushing for "making a move" is counterproductive. She's not going to run off if you don't pounce on her.

In fact you seem to finally be showing some respect and growth by knocking off the sexting and lewd comments.

Please try to live in the present and enjoy life.  It's like you're already a couple and dating. It's just that you're struggling with sexual feelings. She'll let you know when and if she wants that, directly or indirectly. 

Oh I didn't mean he should make any sort of sexual move.  I don't think he should at this point. I think if they start dating and become a couple they'll both know when the time is right!

[NighttimeNightmare]

Thanks @rainbowsandroses 😀 I’m happy with my progress 

[ShySoul]

Night, count me in as someone who has never dated and seeks out the connection. I've always believed in friends first, then if it grows into more it's meant to be more. 

You are right, it's a process. Both parties have to be ready. If you needed to take time, then taking time was the right step for you. It's a delicate balance. Wait to long or push to hard and one side or the other will back off. So let it happen naturally. There will come a time where if you want more, you have to go for more. But you have to decide when that time is right. It sounds like both of you have made big strides into developing a more mature relationship and are truly comfortable with each other. So, keep it up. Trust in yourself. You have a good head on your shoulders and a good understanding of what a relationship should be. Hopefully this works out for you.

[ShySoul]

6 hours ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Communicating, understanding, trusting, accepting and feeling safe enough to be yourself and express yourself in an emotionally safe environment.

When I read these forums and even in real life, I find that this is missing in so many relationships.

People resort to games, tests and various strategies to get what they need versus simply trusting your partner and being emotionally honest with them and having them accept you. 

THAT is true intimacy imo. 

Amen! I couldn't agree with that more. I've been saying for years you don't need games or tricks. You just need communication, honesty and understanding. I think it comes down to having respect - respect for yourself and respect for others.

[kim42]

Happy belated birthday @NighttimeNightmare, and good luck with this lady!

[NighttimeNightmare]

Thanks for the birthday wishes! And the comments. This situation got too much for me and I had to stop thinking about it. But I guess what ended up happening is I’ve been reverting back to my old methods, which aren’t healthy. And I can’t really stop any of the thoughts or behaviors, they seem to be predominantly subconscious until I finally realize I’m doing it. Even she’s realizing.  To be clear, this isn’t overwhelmingly present in our day to day. It’s mostly fine, but this is brewing under the surface for me.  
 

I know it’s my ‘fault’ for never saying anything to her. And that is what it is. That’s prob what you all will say, that this has been going on for months, I should have xyz. Etc etc. well, I just never could, so I never did. I get it’s so easy for some people but I just never could do it. So whatever. But now I’m isolating, shutting down, and even becoming angry with her.  Just don’t really like talking or being vulnerable anymore because it means I have feelings for her, which I then get angry about. I’m tired of hearing her little rants about not wanting relationships. Blah blah blah. I get it. Or her rants about how if something happened to her she’d be by herself. That’s insulting. Like she really thinks I’d leave her to fend for herself?  
 

I dunno. I’ve been holding this in. It’s just insulting to me. We see eachother like twice a week. At least. Usually more. We had dinner last night. And it’s like, what am I doing.  It’s torture now. 
 

then there was the other day where we were browsing a big thing of books that we ran into.  There were loads. I said well I want to look through them and see if there’s anything I’m interested in. I was going down all of the tables of books and at some point she got distracted by one so I carried on. When I made it down a row and was back near her she hands me the book and is like “I like this one.”  Well once again… a sex book. Out of alllllll of the books, she gives me this one. Obv I’m going to think about her and sex in the same sentence in my head. But what would really happen if I tried something?  And I’m always taken aback when she does this because she yet and still doesn’t come across to me as someone who actually wants to sleep with me.  I’ve been around women who do, and it’s obv. Or, they’ll flat out say it. But even the ones who don’t, it’s very obv they are willing and wanting that. I don’t get that with her. And maybe that’s because the other women weren’t yapping about how they “didn’t want a relationship.” There’s been a few times I’ve thought she’s had feelings for me and we’ve had ‘moments’ and I could have said something then, but again, never did.   
 

We had a long and integrated convo the other night where she opened up to be more about what happened with her divorce and some other things… and then I guess one of the nights I wasn’t with her she called her friend out for being abusive to her husband and was telling me about it all. And she was like “see this is all I see. It’s just dysfunction. People getting together and it turns into that, I don’t want that responsibility. Ugh.” And some other stuff about how in 5 years she doesn’t want to be having to wipe someone’s ass or them wiping hers. That she’s just too old for it all.  Whatever. I feel like I’m just done with it all. I hear her loud and clear. I just want the feelings to go away. We are way too close and integrated. Once again I feel like she has the perks of a relationship without having to commit.  She’s even comfortable enough to use the bathroom in front of me…  It’s like I have a girlfriend that I can’t touch. 
 

I started talking to women on dating websites again the other day. Just made me angry at her, at what’s about to happen. She’s so scared of “relationships” and all of this being alone talk… well, now that’s exactly what’s going to happen. She will be alone and die alone while I’ve moved on with my life. I won’t be coming around anymore once I do meet someone, and eventually it’ll happen. Then what? I hope all of the “I don’t want a relationships” were worth it. Now she’ll see again what it’s like not to have one when I’m gone.  I’m who she calls, I’m who she spends all her time with, I’m who she eats with, I’m who she prefers to be around.  Girl bye!

normally I’d just ghost people when I feel this internal chaos. But I can’t do that sort of thing to her.  I know it would really hurt her.  I already feel bad that she’s picking up on me shutting down. I’m not the same on the phone either cause I’ve realized this convos are in part what’s allowed me to develop feelings for her. And last night a certain sensitive topic came up and she was really listening to me and being compassionate and I realized what was happening and had to cut that convo off. Cos again, it’s also that vulnerability that makes me have the feelings.  And then when I shut down the other day we were together I didn’t even realize I had done it and she said “so is this what you do.. you just completely shut down?” I said “yup!”  She sees too much at this point, I just want to push the erase button on it all. 

[kim42]

I think I read the entire thread about this lady and I'm surprised things never escalated between the two of you, given how much time you spent together. I tend to believe she enjoys your company and your attention but probably doesn't want a relationship, as she mentioned it several times.

I wonder what she would do if you started to date someone and spend less time with her.

I think it's a good idea to distance yourself from her if it's too much for you.

[Wiseman2]

29 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

I started talking to women on dating websites again the other day. Just made me angry at her, at what’s about to happen. She’s so scared of “relationships” and all of this being alone talk… 

It's good you are on dating apps. Please just enjoy the friendship and companionship, that's all this ever was and will ever be, even if she gets a kick out of being flirty sometimes. 

[NighttimeNightmare]

26 minutes ago, kim42 said:

I tend to believe she enjoys your company and your attention but probably doesn't want a relationship, as she mentioned it several times.

Yes. That’s exactly what it is, this isn’t a mystery. She’s been clear about this.   My issue is my choice to spend all of this time with her to where it resembles what you’d have in a relationship but in the end it’s actually just not. I’m stuck in a loop

27 minutes ago, kim42 said:

I wonder what she would do if you started to date someone and spend less time with her.

Probably be sad but accept it for what it is. And retell herself over and over that she “didn’t want a relationship anyhow,” just like she also tells herself she prob isn’t deserving of a good one.  Then ok. If that’s what she wants then so be it 

 

I already stopped talking to her once before and she was sad over it. But at this point I know I have to cut it off 
 

 

[Batya33]

I think your anger including at yourself and your resentment - of her -and your observations about her actions and reactions -a bit under a microscope at times - leads me to the respectful opinion that you two are not suited to spending more than acquaintance type time together and only occasionally.  You're not in a good place for more and at some point who cares who is to "blame" for that - that's not the point - and to me the adult mature thing is to keep your distance and let her do her thing whatever that thing is.  And you do yours.

[rainbowsandroses]

1 hour ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

I’m tired of hearing her little rants about not wanting relationships. Blah blah blah. I get it. Or her rants about how if something happened to her she’d be by herself.

^^I'm curious how you respond to her "rants."  Do you challenge her thoughts about it at all?   

If not, do you think it's possible she might want you to, need you to challenge her?  

NOT in an aggressive way, but remember what you said earlier about feeling "safe"?  

It appears she has tons of fears and anxieties about relationships and commitment, she admitted she sees abuse, dysfunction all around her and has been hurt herself.  My sense is she feels "unsafe" being truly vulnerable with you for this reason.

You also just said you're angry, and rightfully so!  Imo.

So, what's stopping you from expressing that anger, that pain, and "rocking the boat" a little?   

Again, NOT in an aggressive way, but in a way she knows YOU are "in" this and the two of you together could be different from the dysfunction she sees all around her?

Versus shutting down and distancing?   Avoiding. 

I will admit I shared the same anxieties she does about relationships, still do on some level which is why my style is a bit off the beaten path from most "normal" relationships but works for me due to my anxieties.

It's how I manage my anxieties but able to have relationships at the same time.

Previous boyfriends and ex husband never truly understood that or ME and it caused a lot of problems.

My current boyfriend DOES and gotta say this may be best and most solid relationship I've ever had.

When I become fearful and anxious, he challenges me and by doing so, reassures me HE isn't going anywhere and together we can make a difference.

I am NOT saying this is the right path for you (or her), just maybe something to consider? 

In any event, I'm sorry you're hurting and hope you're able to get some closure no matter which way it goes.

 

 

[NighttimeNightmare]

1 hour ago, rainbowsandroses said:

^^I'm curious how you respond to her "rants."  Do you challenge her thoughts about it at all?   

This topic is sort of difficult To express with text. But once again everything you’ve written very closely , if not completely spot on, resembles what I feel is going on with her and me. 
 

I have challenged it once. And when my emotions die down and I see the situation more logical and clear, I tell myself “next time she rants I will challenge it,” then the rant happens and I just lose my footing. I see it as all one way, unmovable, and just go along with it. Then afterwards wonder why I did 

1 hour ago, rainbowsandroses said:

If not, do you think it's possible she might want you to, need you to challenge her?  

Yes, because she brings it up constantly. To the point it’s beginning to annoy me.  I think she does this with our age gap too, she will sorta bring it up like she wants me to tell her it’s ok. I lose my footing with that one as well. I don’t know why. I have some ideas, but knowing why is only half of the battle, changing the behavior within myself is a different challenge 

1 hour ago, rainbowsandroses said:

It appears she has tons of fears and anxieties about relationships and commitment, she admitted she sees abuse, dysfunction all around her and has been hurt herself.  My sense is she feels "unsafe" being truly vulnerable with you for this reason.

It all feels to me like she can stay safe in her little corner constantly parroting this “I don’t want a relationship” thing while essentially partaking if one [with me]. She never has to call it that, or commit, but she gets the perks.  I’m not blaming her, I’m just expressing that this is the vibe I get from her being around her so much.  I honestly think she tries to test the water sometimes by being a tad sexual, like with the books. It’s similar to what I was doing with some commentary I’d make.  She’s also been using the forbidden “heart emoji” with me lately. 
 

A couple days ago when she told me more about her divorce and the dynamic in that relationship and her relationship with her mom… I mean, it all makes sense that she’s taken on this independent persona. But on the flip side she doesn’t seem as content with it as she tries to appear.  Because who talks about it this much???? And she’s often stressed that she does have to do xyz alone. Which is part of where my anger comes from cos I legit show up for her and help her (she does for me too!) so how r u going to say you’re alone?! Or how r u going to say all relationships are dysfunctional when she and I actually communicate really well. We do well when we are together.  We resolve things well. I’m there for her, she’s there for me. She calls me on my *** and then gives me a platform to speak. She listens.  I cannot identify anything in this that’s inherently dangerous (aside from my yearning for someone who may not be available in those ways)

 

1 hour ago, rainbowsandroses said:

So, what's stopping you from expressing that anger, that pain, and "rocking the boat" a little? 

I really don’t know.  Which is why I’m at the point of just cutting this off and ending it once and for all.  But then it’s like damn, I can’t do that to her (or myself). I see how much she likes being around me, I just want her to stop with this “I don’t have anyone” commentary.  But at the same time everyone is made well aware of what we both do for one another, so it’s ironic .  Last night she’s told me she’s done life by herself since her divorce so that’s what she knows. Ok but this convo came after I literally patched holes in her wall from the art we took down, while she cooked dinner.  

 I got sick the other day at her house and she made me tea and sh*t and helped me.  She’s not someone I’d prefer to just hoist out of my life, this is SAD for me, but just cause she wants to be “alone” doesn’t mean I want that for the rest of my own life. Rinse and repeat. I don’t even believe she wants that for herself either, it’s just what she says to cope and to protect. IMHO. 

1 hour ago, rainbowsandroses said:

will admit I shared the same anxieties she does about relationships, still do on some level which is why my style is a bit off the beaten path from most "normal" relationships but works for me due to my anxieties.

It's how I manage my anxieties but able to have relationships at the same time.

Previous boyfriends and ex husband never truly understood that or ME and it caused a lot of problems.

My current boyfriend DOES and gotta say this may be best and most solid relationship I've ever had.

Thanks for sharing this tidbit. I’m glad you found balance there. I tend to see things this way as well, I don’t think anyone is perfect, we all come with something. So long as no one is being abusive to one another I think recognizing the flaws in conjunction with being around someone who can sort of massage them out, is really helpful. Like in my case, I do have very black and white thinking and I shut down. She picks up on it and will mention it when I’m doing it. Then she will ask me to come and communicate what I’m feeling.  I’ve never been held to that before and it’s healing that part of me.  I know I should prob challenge some Of her more firmly engrained issues as well. I do with different topics and she thanks me and responds well.  
 

But right now, I guess because I am feeling certain [intimate] things for her, I’m going through an internal rage cycle and I feel like she’s seen and knows too much and I’m frustrated cause I want more with her.   I’m mad that we’ve both become vulnerable in so many ways yet it’s still “I don’t want a relationship!” while referencing the dysfunction of other ppl.  But yet she and I do not communicate like that. We don’t put each other down. We don’t hit below the belt.   And on that note, the irony of this entire thread is that she’d likely want me to communicate this stuff to her.  

[MissCanuck]

I think you badly need space from this woman. 

It is obviously not going anywhere and it's holding you back from meeting someone you can have a real relationship with.