I thought I’d be happy/relieved if she found someone; turns out I’m sad

[boltnrun]

This was a scene in a movie I saw but it actually happened to me in real life.  I was standing close to a man I'd been spending time with at weekly events.  He said "What I really want right now is to kiss you".  And I said "Do it!"  And he did, and we started a relationship right then.

[NighttimeNightmare]

8 hours ago, Batya33 said:

She wasn't sexist but she means -I think - be a man, step up to the plate.  But she doesn't want controlling - no one reasonably healthy does - controlling meaning to an extent where she constantly has to tell you to back down -I mean if she wants that level then maybe that's just what turns her on but I don't get that sense.  She simply is tired of the passive doormat approach that is dressed up -or intended by you -as considerate and nice.  

Ya this is the exact cliff notes of the convo. She’s already told me I was controlling once and to stop. This convo was just about exactly what you said, she doesn’t want controlling but she wants me to take the lead. I didn’t know she had been taking my attempts at being considerate as a lack of interest/enthusiasm the entire time 

8 hours ago, Batya33 said:

(And yet she didn't want to tell the man at the party/event to get lost -she wanted you to do that - didn't she say she knows how to speak up? Hmmmmmm)

It wasn’t a party, it’s a place i’m involved with for business. We talked about the incident today and she explained her POV. It was what I thought, she didn’t want to tell him to f*ck off cause she didn’t want to ruin what I have going on there. She also enjoys going with me and felt upset that she had to be put in this position to where she didn’t want to ruin the vibe for herself either. She said that was her attempt at trying to stop this in a polite way but since he didn’t listen now she has to be a b*tch.  She’s on her way there now actually, it will be interesting to see how it plays out.  She said “you know me, I have no problem telling someone to f*ck off.” Hopefully it doesn’t cause a scene. I’m constantly having to rail her in 

[Batya33]

Why do you take on any role of reigning her in?  

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

.  She’s on her way there now actually, it will be interesting to see how it plays out.  

So she's not going to the party with you? Basically it's the same thing she said. You push the envelope and she'll tell you when it's too much. Especially the sexting instead of asking her out and all this sort of  "allowed to"  and "not fair" thinking. You don't need permission to invite her to a party. 

[NighttimeNightmare]

1 hour ago, Wiseman2 said:

So she's not going to the party with you?

She went there to run an errand, it’s not a party or event place. She was there for 10 minutes max. 
 

 

1 hour ago, Wiseman2 said:

all this sort of  "allowed to"  and "not fair" thinking. You don't need permission to invite her to a party. 

To clarify, when I was speaking in this manner what I said was “she lets me,” that was the term used. What I meant was “she doesn’t stop me,” I didn’t mean I felt I needed permission lol. I’ve never had a dynamic with someone where I needed “permission,” I have the other issue - I tend to be incredibly controlling and I step over peoples wants and needs. That’s why she’s saying she thinks I’m over correcting by being too “considerate” to the point it’s passive and comes across as a lack of interest. She’s right so, I’ll start operating in a middle ground 

2 hours ago, Batya33 said:

Why do you take on any role of reining her in?

It’s not like she’s wild and uncouth or anything lol. She just has a mouth on her and I’ll reel it back in, I don’t feel it’s my responsibility, but I’ll redirect her. She does the same with me when I get a bit fired up. 
 

[NighttimeNightmare]

9 hours ago, boltnrun said:

This was a scene in a movie I saw but it actually happened to me in real life.  I was standing close to a man I'd been spending time with at weekly events.  He said "What I really want right now is to kiss you".  And I said "Do it!"  And he did, and we started a relationship right then.

But had you been consistently telling him you don’t want a relationship with anybody? That’s still a narrative between she and I. 
 

for instance, today when we were discussing the incident with the relentless guy I told her it went completely over my head she was looking at me like that for me to end it, I told her I didn’t even realize he was hitting on her until he started commenting on her looks. Then I said “well now I know you don’t want that I’ll be firm with him next time,” she was like “I didn’t want that, esp not with him. …. I don’t want that with anybody”

 

so like, I can say after the conversation I’ve realized I can be expressive without being controlling, I don’t need to repress my thoughts and feelings, about anything.  But again, there’s also this reality that she’s saying she doesn’t want a relationship lol 

 

I mean I suppose I could still tell her I want one … with her specifically 

[Batya33]

8 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

But had you been consistently telling him you don’t want a relationship with anybody? That’s still a narrative between she and I. 
 

for instance, today when we were discussing the incident with the relentless guy I told her it went completely over my head she was looking at me like that for me to end it, I told her I didn’t even realize he was hitting on her until he started commenting on her looks. Then I said “well now I know you don’t want that I’ll be firm with him next time,” she was like “I didn’t want that, esp not with him. …. I don’t want that with anybody”

 

so like, I can say after the conversation I’ve realized I can be expressive without being controlling, I don’t need to repress my thoughts and feelings, about anything.  But again, there’s also this reality that she’s saying she doesn’t want a relationship lol 

 

I mean I suppose I could still tell her I want one … with her specifically 

Yes, I get it.  So - my future husband didn't ask me to get back together till our third platonic evening together.  I remember though on the second we did do some talk about dating/past relationships while we'd been apart all those years -because -from my understanding we were out as friends/exes!  I remember he said -in context -he'd be open to a long distance relationship (because where he lived at that time -slim pickings).  And my impression was -he's telling me this because he's looking to date and for a relationship..... but not with me!  I was wrong I guess.  But shows you how things can be misinterpreted.  To my part I don't think I said a thing about who I was dating at the time or wanted to date -I did reference my my most recent ex and why I believed it didn't work out. 

Now obviously he said he did want a relationship.  But I still misinterpreted as far as specific. And I agree with you -if I wanted to date the person sitting across from me I'd never say I wasn't looking to date anyone. In fact one of my very serious boyfriends said to me at our first date that his dad had advised him not to marry before age 30. He was 22. I was 23 but wanted to marry before age 30.  He ended up proposing to me when he was 26.  So.... what people say.... what they do.....

I think in your situation despite the lady doth protest she wants nothing to do with relationships seems to me she might make an exception for you..... especially given the whole reining in thing -that's totally a couple thing IMO

[NighttimeNightmare]

Nothing juicy to update regarding new years.  She was disappointed we weren’t doing the engagement at her friends house. I did invite her to option B but she didnt want to be out on the road with the drivers, which I figured, (The initial party was within walking distance), and she’s always been finicky about that.  So I went to my party, and she ended up getting invited to have a quiet dinner with her friend and her husband at their house. 
 

And to your most recent comment @Batya33, I get what you’re saying and I really do think from here on out I’m going to be more like my former self with her, which I’m happy about. I won’t be abusive like i was in the past, I’ll make space for her thoughts and feelings, but I’m excited to reclaim a big part of myself and be expressive and direct.  I’ve never known how to be direct with my needs and consider someone else’s [needs] at the same time, but I think I get it now. I trust she’ll tell me if I’m being a bit much, and so far she’s been a safe platform for me to open up to, so I think this is really healthy for me.  
 

and on that note, while she is still verbally saying she “doesn’t want a relationship,” the entire convo we had did feel relationshipy. Especially with her saying, “I need someone who is going to xyz.”  Everything about that sentence and context sounded like partner talk. Otherwise she would have said something like, “I work best when people are direct with me.” She’s always clear with her words.  Then, when we ended that convo and went outside to sit down, the dog was bothering her for something (and I know she knows I’m getting a bit perturbed by  her coddling him), and she told me that it’s always just been her and him, there’s never been anyone else in the picture since she got him and that’s all he knows. I said I understand that.  Then she told the dog “sorry, you need to go lay down. Things are changing”

so yea I think all of this, in addition to my brain finally clicking with other things, I am gonna stop sweeping this under the rug.  She can “reject” me or push back on the idea or whatever but this is all so obvious to me and I’m done playing games 

[rainbowsandroses]

12 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

Then, when we ended that convo and went outside to sit down, the dog was bothering her for something (and I know she knows I’m getting a bit perturbed by  her coddling him), and she told me that it’s always just been her and him, there’s never been anyone else in the picture since she got him and that’s all he knows. I said I understand that.  Then she told the dog “sorry, you need to go lay down. Things are changing.”

Wow, her comment (bolded) gave me shivers!

I agree with her too, 2024 is the year!  

Happy New Year!!  💛 

 

[Batya33]

I would tell myself -if you need to focus on her fur baby as a sign then what needs to change is either your approach - (I like your plan to be direct) or decide to stop reading into what she says/how she says it unless it's a direct response to you asking her on a real date - with no ambiguity or clearly saying "I want us to be a couple.  In every sense of the word.  What do you think about that?"Or just as direct.  

In 2003 I was dumped.  The next day he sent me gorgeous flowers with a lovely thoughtful card that did NOT say he wanted me back but said such lovely things about me .I excitedly called my friend who I'd just booked a flight to go see (of course he ended things right before our planned trip and right before my 37th bday).  Thank the heavens for my friend who I'd then known for 23 years.  She said so gently but firmly "I don't think he means at all he wants to get back together."  She reoriented me, centered me, grounded me.  I moved on from the flowers.  Thanks to her.  Set yourself straight so you don't go off the deep end about a comment she made to her dog.

[NighttimeNightmare]

I definitely don’t think a single comment in reference to a dog means we’re going to have a love story. I mean, none of my posts on this forum would exist if something like that was convincing to me. So I agree with you there 

it’s moreso her overall vibe and and the time we spend together and just nuances in our connection; it’s something in the progression of our engagements.  Those things as a whole could point to there being something. I mean, if the guy who sent you flowers also had you over nearly every day, and you guys were cooking together and mutually enjoying close company, I still wouldn’t think that meant he was in love with you, but it would beg a question for sure. That’s sort of the point this has gotten to. And if she’s tired of me being passive well… she will get her wish 

 

[Batya33]

20 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

I definitely don’t think a single comment in reference to a dog means we’re going to have a love story. I mean, none of my posts on this forum would exist if something like that was convincing to me. So I agree with you there 

it’s moreso her overall vibe and and the time we spend together and just nuances in our connection; it’s something in the progression of our engagements.  Those things as a whole could point to there being something. I mean, if the guy who sent you flowers also had you over nearly every day, and you guys were cooking together and mutually enjoying close company, I still wouldn’t think that meant he was in love with you, but it would beg a question for sure. That’s sort of the point this has gotten to. And if she’s tired of me being passive well… she will get her wish 

 

So in my example before he ended things we dated for 5 months.  3.5 exclusive. I met his family and friends and he met mine.  We saw each other a number of times a week and slept over.  His flowers were to assuage his guilt.  The end.  After that he did want to see me.  To hook up.  Not to be with me as a boyfriend.

I'd ignore at this point all signs and nuances.  All of them.  At this point.  It's been a looooong time of you reading nuances and signs and going over and over her words and her actions.  The only progression is maybe an increase in the flirtatious and line crossing comments on both ends.  

I'm glad you're going to take a simple and direct approach.  It's why I'm married now.  Let's just say I didn't get knocked up by reading signs either.  We didn't make the plans we did -the dates, the trips, the events we attended together, the future plans of where to live, how to live, etc by reading signs and nuances.  He actually had no idea I would say yes. I had no idea he'd ask and certainly not that night.  I didn't allow myself to read signs because I knew for sure if I went there I'd waste time from looking for a husband elsewhere.  And be really really upset and disappointed. 

Had he not and I had to read nuances and signs my impression would have been "nope not that into me" especially since he was leaving town for at least 4 months (which changed due only to dramatic external circumstances having nothing to do with us).  I know you're not leaving town but the distance betwen what you say you want and what is the reality is vast indeed IMO.

[Wiseman2]

30 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

I definitely don’t think a single comment in reference to a dog means we’re going to have a love story. it's moreso her overall vibe and and the time we spend together and just nuances in our connection; it’s something in the progression of our engagements.  

Agree. The dog comment was just something in passing. Hopefully things are still happy and you're enjoying each other despite the new years thing not panning out. 

[rainbowsandroses]

NN, right or wrong (in truth I don't think there IS a right or wrong), I am a big believer in vibes, energy. nuance and signs. 

I think some people like myself and perhaps you (only you know), have the innate ability to "feel" things, to sense things, intuitively.  INFJ personality type. 

As such, I dont need the "direct" approach when it comes to the expression of feelings, never have.  In fact, I prefer less direct and have things develop naturally and organically.

Sometimes, no words need to be spoken at all, you just "know."  Through feelings, energy, vibrational pulls (vibes).  Psychotherapist Esther Perel discusses this in many of her books and videos.

In fact, often times I choose to trust my own feelings and intuition more than I trust words and even actions sometimes as not everyone is as genuine and forthright as we'd like to believe and hope.  It's never steered me wrong. 

That is why I can very much relate to your postings and what's happening with your lady friend. 

Given the fact you both have certain fears (you've admitted this) things have progressed very slowly, which is OK, it's what needed to happen.  

Had you pursued things more directly (and aggressively), imo you might have scared her away altogether, like men have done in the past.  Where she felt overwhelmed and pressured, so you were a refreshing change and it enabled her to grow closer to you and trust you, slowly and gradually.

That said I do think it's time for a change.  SHE senses this too, she can feel it coming, which is why she made the comment, IMO. 

Does it mean you're gonna have a great love story?  Of course not, but it's a beginning.

Fingers crossed 2024 is the year!  And no matter how this all plays out, it's all good and part of the journey.

Just my take fwiw. 

 

 

 

[Batya33]

2 hours ago, rainbowsandroses said:

NN, right or wrong (in truth I don't think there IS a right or wrong), I am a big believer in vibes, energy. nuance and signs. 

Me too. Not when it comes to whether someone wanted to date me.  Then I paid attention to one thing only -either he asked me out on a proper date he planned in advance or accepted my invitation with enthusiasm.  All else -for purposes of my sanity and not wasting precious time or emotions - was irrelevant - it worked for me for the 24 years I dated and was in relationships.  It could be relevant to whether he found me attractive or enjoyed flirting but not relevant at all to whether he wanted to date me - I only wanted to date men who put in the effort to ask me out or at least were enthusiastic if I did -otherwise why bother having to read into "signs" and "vibes"?

I think most people are reasonably good at all of this reading of signs and nuances or at least enough to get by in life reasonably well.  Some are better than others just like some people are better at rationalizing signs and nuances to mean something entirely different -and on and on.  I've always been very good at it.

Here's an example. I have a friend who is amazing at reading people and signs and energy and is a very thoughtful, spiritual and religious person too.  Highly intelligent and extremely creative.

For 4 years she was all wrapped up in a guy she volunteered with in a creative organization.  Both in their 30s. They became really good friends. Hung out a lot with the group and also one on one in private conversations.  He was flirtatious with her and handsome.  They never hooked up and she never told him directly how she felt.  She was fairly obsessed.

After about 3 years they at one point spent a whole day alone -as "friends" - during this time she rarely went on dates and was so so into him.  During this day he told her that for the past 2 years plus he'd been dating another volunteer who she was good friends with.  And he told her they'd recently broken up.  They'd kept their relationship a secret.

They were in the group together about another year.  With all the signs with all the nuances with all the vibes-he never asked her out.  And no he wasn't shy.  I met him.  Nope.  So much for nuances - she wasted years on this person.  She's in her 50s now, never married -not because of him but it was really awful how she hung on to his every word, flirty look, nuances vibes energy....

[rainbowsandroses]

32 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Me too. Not when it comes to whether someone wanted to date me.  Then I paid attention to one thing only -either he asked me out on a proper date he planned in advance or accepted my invitation with enthusiasm.  All else -for purposes of my sanity and not wasting precious time or emotions - was irrelevant - it worked for me for the 24 years I dated and was in relationships.  

Bolded, fair enough. 

Me?  I did not, not always, especially when *I* felt no interest / chemistry / attraction to them.  Genuine chemistry being mutual and all.  

I have come to learn that people have all sorts of reasons for pursuing others (asking out on dates, accepting invites) other than a genuine interest in that person. 

And I can 'sense' real fast when it's not genuine, and feel very blessed that I have this innate ability. 

I always went by my own intuition and feelings and as I said, it has never steered me wrong. 

Which explains why I didn't and don't accept many of the date invites I receive. 

The ones I have accepted have typically (not always) led to a relationship like with E-guy and boyfriends before him

Although I can't really call E-guy my "boyfriend."

At this point he's a man I'm dating; I will update my thread soon. 😀

[Batya33]

9 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Bolded, fair enough. 

Me?  I did not, not always, especially when *I* felt no interest / chemistry / attraction to them.  Genuine chemistry being mutual and all.  

I have come to learn that people have all sorts of reasons for pursuing others (asking out on dates, accepting invites) other than a genuine interest in that person. 

And I can 'sense' real fast when it's not genuine, and feel very blessed that I have this innate ability. 

I always went by my own intuition and feelings and as I said, it has never steered me wrong. 

Which explains why I didn't and don't accept many of the date invites I receive. 

Yes it's impressive you have this innate ability! I'm glad it worked for you and obviously you should take great pride in how talented you are in this regard!

When it came to dating I did what I wrote because I wanted marriage and didn't want to waste time on a man who wouldn't step up to the plate in a minimal way to ask me out on a date. Sure he could be interested in me.  Just not interested enough in dating me.  I think what you wrote is extremely important in relationships and dating.  And I'm so glad I spent no time thinking about "ohhhh I think he likes me!! ohhh he did __-and ___ and looked at me like this and his body language - I mean when we were teenagers I'd speak on my separate landline for hours about this stuff - when I got serious if he wasn't asking me out I knew he didn't want to date me badly enough or wasn't available to date me.  

This way I'd be open to pursuing other men and if he asked me out I could consider it then.  I asked out a number of men -there was a separate reason -nothing to do with intuition - that I didn't do it more often.

As far as the OP I stand by my opinion that it's time to stop reading tea leaves and I applaud him for planning to take direct actions. 

[NighttimeNightmare]

Thanks for your contributions, @rainbowsandroses I 100% agree with you and relate to a lot of your POVs on other posts as well 

I’ve never asked a woman out in my life, and yet I’ve had several long-term relationships. Every one of them started like this, with a magnetic vibe of some sort that naturally unfolded and then we both found ourselves in a close bond that we eventually titled a relationship. It feels the same with this woman, but I get thrown off because of the age that propels a lot of my hesitancy + this newfound attempt I have to listen to people’s words instead of a “my way or highway” approach.  But that ‘feeling’ I’ve had only a handful of times in my life, and each turned into a relationship , so that feeling never steered me wrong; I feel the same feeling with her  over and over again 

I know something like 80% of human communication is non-verbal and all of that I participate in with her, but it’s not something I can relay on a forum board. There’s so much going on between she and I that I just can’t capture in text 
 

and absolutely had I been someone who wasn’t interested in getting to know her and immediately asked her out based on looks or something, i don’t think it would have turned into this. On my end either, I don’t like feeling like I have to perform. 
 

I do also think at this point, it would be beneficial to sprinkle in some more direct communication. She’s asking for that too, but that’s all still thanks to the connection we’ve naturally created over these months. 
 

and regarding the dog comment, well… that comment also was significant in the sense that there’s been so much we’ve done and said, related to the dog and my grievances with it that’s been a long time coming. We’ve both been working really hard with getting my dog incorporated into her home.  Her dog had pretty bad possession issues on the property, and now my dog is able to go in her yard, her house, and we can all be together. That took some months. Not to mention just the fact she’s gotten so good at being willing to leave the dog at home so we can spend time alone, that took awhile too.  She’s made really tangible strides to integrate me and make herself more available to me.  So I don’t think the comment is significant on its own, but it encompasses much more than just a passing comment 

[Batya33]

Just now, rainbowsandroses said:

Lol, It's not a "talent" Bat geez.

But thanks anyway.

I mean you've emphasized how not everyone has this ability and you happen to be very accomplished in this regard and you rely on this better than average ability of yours -meaning you think it's somehwat unusual -your abilities in this regard - to make important decisions.  Sorry if talent was a poor word choice.  

[boltnrun]

I've never dated. My relationships have all resulted in spending more and more time with someone until a kiss was shared or, with my husband, I gave him very clear non verbal physical indications that a kiss was welcome. 

But at some point, someone had to poop or get off the pot. If a man I liked, was attracted to and was spending a lot of time with and to whom I gave clear indications of attraction to him did nothing and didn't react to my non verbal physical cues, I gave up and moved on. And I've had a couple of them say "I liked you. I wanted to get to know you much better, but I blew it." Yep, they did. 

[Batya33]

Just now, boltnrun said:

I've never dated. My relationships have all resulted in spending more and more time with someone until a kiss was shared or, with my husband, I gave him very clear non verbal physical indications that a kiss was welcome. 

But at some point, someone had to poop or get off the pot. If a man I liked, was attracted to and was spending a lot of time with and to whom I gave clear indications of attraction to him did nothing and didn't react to my non verbal physical cues, I gave up and moved on. And I've had a couple of them say "I liked you. I wanted to get to know you much better, but I blew it." Yep, they did. 

And I've never been in a serious relationship with a person who didn't ask me out on a date first or -in my husband's case second time around -asked me to get back together and told me exactly what his hopes and intentions were.  But that was unusual since we'd been serious in the past.

[NighttimeNightmare]

59 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

I've never dated. My relationships have all resulted in spending more and more time with someone until a kiss was shared or, with my husband, I gave him very clear non verbal physical indications that a kiss was welcome. 

But at some point, someone had to poop or get off the pot. If a man I liked, was attracted to and was spending a lot of time with and to whom I gave clear indications of attraction to him did nothing and didn't react to my non verbal physical cues, I gave up and moved on. And I've had a couple of them say "I liked you. I wanted to get to know you much better, but I blew it." Yep, they did. 

Yes, I think this is the nuance I need to enact with her now. I’ve never dated either but I think the signs (not to be confused with me looking for a sign) between she and I are pretty clear for me now and I do need to be direct, I think it’s ok to be direct now. It didn’t feel right before 

I think the fact I have not made a move is causing confusion, for me definitely, and I think for her too.  Everyone else I had this ‘vibe’ with a move was made by now. And I think the convo from the other night really hit home for me. 

[LootieTootie]

It's funny that the ads below this thread is all about dating older women. Any way, I think its fine to have a close and dear friend that's the opposite sex, but I think when there's regular blurred lines going on, I think it's best to be direct. And if she says she doesn't like you in that way or see you that way, I think you should cut back on these daily routines you have with her if you do harbor some romantic feelings for her. 

I asked if you were putting yourself out there because you are putting so much time and energy in a friendship that somehow has met your emotional needs but not your physical needs. If you cut down on your time with your friend, you might actually have more time, effort and opportunities to meet someone who can give you both. 

 

[NighttimeNightmare]

On 1/1/2024 at 6:23 PM, LootieTootie said:

I asked if you were putting yourself out there because you are putting so much time and energy in a friendship that somehow has met your emotional needs but not your physical needs.

I’d say my physical needs come as a byproduct of the connection we have formed.  It’s always been that way for me. I don’t hunt for sex, I hunt for connection and then other feelings follow that connection

 

so with her, the connection is there - but will anything happen? Who knows. I think it’s now a nuanced dance where on one hand I like that things are unfolding the way they are between us, naturally, and with some guidance it could lead to something concrete and physical. But on the other hand you’re right in that I could be sort of “wasting” some prime years away when I could be connecting with someone who could give me both things in time. Someone who would commit 

 

General update:

At this point things have ramped up even more, I think. I was her guest to a party, seemed like we went ‘together’ meaning we brought flowers and she was like “these are from nighttime and myself,” and the inquiries from others “so where’d you guys meet?”  We all sat to play some games and the entire evening we were nudging each others feet to communicate, and like with the remote, I swear she was leaving her feet on me. I mean, I was enjoying it. 
After that party we went back to her place and I went home around 1am 

tonight she’s having me over for my bday so it’ll be interesting to see what she’s put together  

but all in all, I am planning on letting this continue to play out naturally, but also using my words to sort of guide this into a more overt romantic connection. I feel like we are close to that and I’ll see how she responds to a bit more firmness there. 

[Kwothe28]

On 1/2/2024 at 2:23 AM, LootieTootie said:

It's funny that the ads below this thread is all about dating older women.

I thought that too and that its algorhytm thing, but subforum is literally called "Age gap relationship". So its just by default for that subforum as articles are also for that topic. Also, lots of those articles are very weird. Wouldnt recommend going there lol

Also, happy birthday Nightmare. Hope New Year gets you good news about all of this.