I thought I’d be happy/relieved if she found someone; turns out I’m sad

[NighttimeNightmare]

5 hours ago, Batya33 said:

I thought you said she’s being set up on dates. 

I said she was upset that her friend suggested she met her brother for a potential relationship. She said she wasn’t interested and didn’t want to.  Not sure why that read to you as she’s “putting herself out there.” 
 

I knew her brother was supposed to be at the Christmas dinner, and my mind started racing. But my friend has explicitly stated over and over she wasn’t interested and asked her friend to stop trying to set her up with people 

[NighttimeNightmare]

4 hours ago, catfeeder said:

I'd use the novel opportunity to open up a conversation--or not, depending on her response. I'd probably say something like, "You know, I was relieved to hear that you didn't end up connecting with the brother at Christmas dinner. I have to admit, when I thought about that possibility, it made me a bit jealous. Is that bad?"

I think I can do this. Tonight she invited me to be with her on new years so I may do it then.  I’ll try to sneak it in casually like “is this better than the Christmas party?” And then say it.  Perfect time to move on with my life if she responds differently than I’d like I suppose 

[catfeeder]

1 hour ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

I think I can do this. Tonight she invited me to be with her on new years so I may do it then.  I’ll try to sneak it in casually like “is this better than the Christmas party?” And then say it.  Perfect time to move on with my life if she responds differently than I’d like I suppose 

Sounds good! Unless you're imposing a penalty that's so steep, it forces you to chicken out. Why not brainstorm a less severe outcome? Like, what if this needn't be a "make or break"convo, just the kind of convo people can typically have without it being a big deal?

I mean, I've never had a problem telling a friend that I was jealous that she got to have a fabulous time with a new date at a game or a concert or something while I was oh-so-thrilled to be taking my elderly mother out to Walmart.

[Wiseman2]

2 hours ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

 she invited me to be with her on new years 

That's great. Try to enjoy the evening. It's ok to be sincere and tell her you love spending time with her and don't want to lose her. Because isn't that what it actually boils down to?  

You don't have to resort to seeming possessive or insecure. There's really no right or wrong answer to being sincere. But testing with innuendos like that won't really made this better and only adds another layer of confusion. 

[Batya33]

I highly recommend watching or rewatching when Harry Met Sally and how many times they got in their own way of being together until he was direct (yes I know sexist and gendered but basic point is good and it was the late 80s).

[Batya33]

8 hours ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

I said she was upset that her friend suggested she met her brother for a potential relationship. She said she wasn’t interested and didn’t want to.  Not sure why that read to you as she’s “putting herself out there.” 
 

I knew her brother was supposed to be at the Christmas dinner, and my mind started racing. But my friend has explicitly stated over and over she wasn’t interested and asked her friend to stop trying to set her up with people 

You've written a lot and my impression was she told you to signal that this is going on, she didn't want to - but as I wrote that can change on a dime.  You've also been vague and indirect to her.  I misread - seems to be a theme here lol.  

The day I reconnected with my future husband I was DONE dating -for that day anyway -I'd spent the morning clicking on emails from an irate man I'd had my last of 2 dates with the evening before.  At my office.  When my future husband called and said suddenly he had a last minute availability for our planned catch up dinner the reason I said yes was because it was not at all a date.  Because he wouldn't ask me about my dating life.  I was up for seeing him later in the week but figured why not last minute on a day when I don't want to meet anyone for a first meet or socially where we rehash how awful it is out there.  Sparks flew.  Which we didn't act on for another month but -there you have it. 

Things can change on a dime when a person is single and -like her especially -flirtatious and good with dishing on sexual innuendoes etc.  Nothing wrong with that but obviously you like it and I'm sure other men would as well in appropriate timing.  .

[NighttimeNightmare]

14 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

That's great. Try to enjoy the evening. It's ok to be sincere and tell her you love spending time with her and don't want to lose her. Because isn't that what it actually boils down to?  

Yes, it is. I guess I don’t have to use the word “jealous” but I think mentioning in some way that when I thought of the prospect of another man, *that* was what prompted some strong feelings.  I think that’s a bit more obvious without being too much or overbearing  

because otherwise it could just be misread as a friendship thing, again, and I’m finally ready to break out of that. I always tell her I enjoy spending my time with her, so I have to use more direct wording. We were together yesterday for 8 hours and it didn’t feel like enough time. I txtd when I got home letting her know i had a nice time. And she said she did as well.  When we were watching tv on the couch I noticed it seems like we sort of were using “handing eachother the remote” to touch one another’s hand, and we were sharing a cocktail out of the same glass. I dunno. Time to move this fwd 
 

but it’s true that at the end of the day, it just boils down to me not wanting to lose her in my life. 

[Wiseman2]

2 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

Yes, it is. I guess I don’t have to use the word “jealous”. it’s true that at the end of the day, it just boils down to me not wanting to lose her in my life. 

Ok focus on this. It's really the bottom line. You are already seeing each other regularly sort of dating but sex hasn't happened.  That's what this is. Saying you're "jealous" seems silly so you don't need to "sneak" that in there and further confuse things. Tell her the truth. You love being with her and don't want to lose her. 

[LootieTootie]

23 hours ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

 as she’s “putting herself out there.” 

Hi Nighttime,

Just curious when reading the comments... Are you putting yourself out there? Or have you decided to ride this one out in hopes that a romantic relationship will gradually transpire from this friendship? 

 

[NighttimeNightmare]

On 12/27/2023 at 3:57 PM, ShySoul said:

But it's like you’re trying to keep yourself at a distance, studying and dissecting every action. I approach things logically as well.

When I was undergoing therapy to try to work on some of my issues, my therapist said im overly logical. But at the end of the day, I never could break out of it. I don’t know how to really see life any other way. I need complete clear avenues, black and whites. 

Logically my intention isn’t to keep myself at a distance, I don’t have that agenda when I do it. But now that you bring it up I wonder if that’s really what it’s accomplishing 

On 12/27/2023 at 3:57 PM, ShySoul said:

But when it comes to matters of the heart, sometimes you just need to go with what you feel.

Ya, but this is where I get confused. And my thread from months ago turned into a giant circle of me being confused and never really “getting it.”  Going with what one feels is odd, because there should be clear and structured signs pointing to what to do

 

thats why I overanalyze cos I need to find the evidence to base my moves on.  When it’s suggested I don’t do this, my brain blanks. It doesn’t make sense to me.  I can’t let my need to know 100% how it’ll turn out go. If I could stop my brain from doing this, I would. 
 

and if I do tell her I want more and all of that, and she says no, I don’t know if I even have the tools to respond to that. I try to imagine the scenario so I can prepare but I don’t like how it makes me feel, it’s just a blur. Or rage. And I can’t be doing that stuff, so I guess I just don’t like to  make a move, with anything in life, unless I know the [positive] outcome. 
 

Maybe this is where my answer lies though. Maybe I need to figure out the tools to deal with her saying no, or no longer having her around, so it’s not so unknown and scary for me. Maybe then I’d stop avoiding being direct with her 

[NighttimeNightmare]

4 hours ago, LootieTootie said:

Hi Nighttime,

Just curious when reading the comments... Are you putting yourself out there? Or have you decided to ride this one out in hopes that a romantic relationship will gradually transpire from this friendship? 

 

I’m not really actively looking for a partner but I’m not closed off to it. Meaning, I’m on some dating websites and I’m active on the meetup app. But I’m not out hunting, never have been the type to do that  

I’ve also never been one to wait around for someone. I’m not waiting and hoping the stars align with me and my friend. It’s moreso that I’m enjoying her company, have fallen for her, and If it does naturally happen then that’s cool, but I’m opened to whatever comes my way, with whomever, if that makes sense. 
 

I know as likely as it is she will meet someone, it’s likely for me too. And sometimes I wonder how she’d feel about it. I mean, we’re so integrated at this point there’s no way I’d be able to maintain my friendship with her while having a girlfriend. All of my other female friends I could maintain them, not her, the friendship is too blurred.  Everything would stop because what I have with her, I want with a partner. I can’t give that closeness to 2 women 

[NighttimeNightmare]

19 hours ago, Batya33 said:

You've written a lot and my impression was she told you to signal that this is going on, she didn't want to

It’s sort of been a theme since I met her. For instance, she has never wanted kids and had to deal with society saying she should and in that same way she is annoyed at how society, and her friends, essentially tell her she needs a husband to be a complete woman. She has a lot of grievances about these ideologies and expresses them to me because I relate to them, I suppose. I’ve never wanted kids either, and don’t necessarily find the idea of a legal marriage attractive for many people who engage in it. I can be single, I’m not someone who desperately seeks out a partner etc etc so we’ve found a lot of common ground there. 
 

19 hours ago, Batya33 said:

but as I wrote that can change on a dime. 

Right. This is why I do also think what she and I are doing, without clarification, is dangerous for me. 

I understand @Wiseman2s viewpoint about just enjoying it for what it is, absent of anxiety and all of that. And that’s true to a degree

but the reality is that she could meet someone and begin dating and then what we have is over. Which again is to the point that this isn’t a regular friendship. Regular friendships don’t end when someone meets a partner. But what we are doing wouldn’t fly. 

we spent the past 2 days together. I cooked last night. Today we got some errands done then went out for dinner. I bought some stuff to cook for us next time. Then we’ve got new years together.  We’re basically a couple without the physical intimacy.  She gets to say she doesn’t want a partner while I’m fulfilling all of these partner roles. 

It’s starting to come to a head where it just doesn’t make a lot of sense. Like yea im enjoying it, but part of me is concerned. I’ve got to look out for my future self. But what I said in a previous comment that I’m finally realizing is all of this fear and anxiety is likely due to the fact that I don’t really know how to properly handle the potential loss. I’ve always avoided grief and feelings around it. I think once I figure that out and feel stable in it I’d be more likely to be direct because I’d know I can handle the outcome. 
 

19 hours ago, Batya33 said:

like her especially -flirtatious and good with dishing on sexual innuendoes etc.  Nothing wrong with that but obviously you like it and I'm sure other men would as well in appropriate timing

Ya but I don’t think she does this with just anyone, esp a random. But who knows, people are surprising. It took us months of casually getting to know each other before that sort of commentary even came up with us. 
 

She seems to need some sort of a connection to begin behaving like that from all she’s said and all I’ve witnessed. 
 

I don’t disagree with you at all in that things can change abruptly; I just don’t want to become suspicious of someone who has not given me reason to be suspicious of her. So far she’s been opened and honest with me, the dialogue has been transparent and I’ve been allowed to ask her anything I’ve needed, and vice verse. I really feel like we’ve developed/are developing a deep trust and bond together. She left me in her house alone for the first time yesterday, I have access to her passwords and all sorts of stuff. Not in a weird or controlling way, we just come to exist very openly around one another. I trust her and I trust the feelings she’s sharing with me are true. 

[Wiseman2]

23 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

  We’re basically a couple without the physical intimacy.  She gets to say she doesn’t want a partner while I’m fulfilling all of these partner roles. 

You both seem to enjoy each other's company so she's fulfilling a role for you as well. She's not cheating you out of anything because you're also getting a lot out of her company.

Perhaps discontinue trying to fit this into one of society's prescribed roles such as  "just friends" or "BF/GF" or "age gap". Why can't you just be kindred spirits who enjoy each other without dissecting it this much? 

Neither of you are doing anything wrong. You're two lonely people who enjoy each other and found a sort of connection. Why not enjoy it? 

Will it last forever? Nothing does. So frankly, you're in the same situation as most of the world in that what you are experiencing is ultimately transient and impermanent.

Maybe you would be a lot happier if you got some of the existential angst out of the way? But that has nothing to do with her per se, she's just the canvas this is being painted on.

[NighttimeNightmare]

1 hour ago, Wiseman2 said:

You both seem to enjoy each other's company so she's fulfilling a role for you as well. She's not cheating you out of anything because you're also getting a lot out of her company.

I don’t think it’s one-sided or that I’m being cheated out of anything. I am making the decision to engage with her because I enjoy her company. That’s my choice that I can stop at any time 

1 hour ago, Wiseman2 said:

Why can't you just be kindred spirits who enjoy each other without dissecting it this much? 

Because, esp now, it’s at a point where I think we need to define it. I don’t need it to be labeled but I need to understand what this is. Sitting around and behaving so intimately emotionally, but never knowing if I’m allowed to touch her or whatever, etc etc etc is becoming an issue for me. But i suppose I’ll only get these answers directly from her. 
 

1 hour ago, Wiseman2 said:

You're two lonely people who enjoy each other and found a sort of connection.

I don’t know what the adjective “lonely” means here. She doesn’t strike me as lonely, she has a decent friend group she sees regularly, keeps busy, and travels a lot.  I always have a project going on, I’m headed out of town soon actually, and also have a solid group of friends I see regularly. Not sure if you were saying we’re connected because we have no other options and are alone decaying inside of our homes?  I spend time with her because I choose to, because I’m happy when I’m around her. I’m happy around certain other people too, or when I’m engaging in my hobbies, she just is particularly enticing. She’s also told me she chooses to spend her time with me because it’s easy being around me and the chemistry is good 

1 hour ago, Wiseman2 said:

Will it last forever? Nothing does. So frankly, you're in the same situation as most of the world in that what you are experiencing is ultimately transient and impermanent

This is true and valuable,  I think both concepts are true: This is true, but so it is also valid that I’m realizing I need this to be defined 

It’s to the point I feel guilty when I’m on dating websites, it’s not her fault. She didn’t do anything. But I feel like I’m cheating on her and we aren’t even together.  This is a byproduct of the amount of time we spend and how close we have become. But in actuality we aren’t together, and one of the women on said website may be a match for me who would want to commit and have a life together. Am I hunting and searching for it, not necessarily, I use the websites very casually as a “opened door/what If/never know” sort of thing. But I’m still young and it might be nice to have. Versus, this sort of undefined go with the flow thing, I could wake up tomorrow and she tells me she’s on her way to a date. Ok cool. Ya, everything ends at some point. But if those are my two scenarios it shines a light on why I think a discussion with her is helpful and maybe even necessary 

that’s not even considering the fact it’s now become almost painful to have to keep myself from putting my hands on her ever. Actually, writing this out is making me realize that I am actually uncomfortable with the situation to a notable degree. The few times I’ve tried to scale back she wonders where I am or asks why I’m acting weird.  I think getting clarity on this would be beneficial for her too 

[Batya33]

Do you really think that people who are married were in general desperate to find a partner otherwise they would be single? That's so sad!

She's a grown woman -older -so by now she should have the tools to deal with ridiculous sexist comments about marriage and kids from her friends and acquaintances. I mean society/generalizations tells me that having one child is selfish lol and that short men are not masculine, and that I'm supposed to want a house in the suburbs and at least 2 cars as a married mom.  So? Everyone faces that sort of nonsense including you and your friend but she's not brainwashed and trust that she might vent she's annoyed but she's faced all sorts of nonsense whether you label it as "society" or otherwise - if venting helps her fine but please don't tell yourself she's under actual pressure.  

 

[Wiseman2]

3 hours ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

 But in actuality we aren’t together,  it’s now become almost painful to have to keep myself from putting my hands on her ever. 

You ARE together. You spend and enjoy a lot of time together. You stated that you do couples stuff and partner stuff together and you have a date for New Year's. You're just not happy that she isn't inviting you to have sex. But then again, you never asked. You just made sexual remarks looking for a reaction. 

Whether or not you're on dating apps is irrelevant. It seems like a mental security blanket/backup plan because you're still unsure if this will become a sexual relationship. Yes if you or her decide to date someone else, the thing you have now will change.

[boltnrun]

Can you tolerate staying in this limbo forever?  Spending hours and hours with her every week but not being able to kiss or hold her or sleep in the same bed with her (or do you?)

Keep in mind if you do start dating someone she likely will not take kindly to you spending 8 hours with this woman instead of spending them with her.

BTW, there is no 100% guarantee of anything.  If that's what you're holding out for you will never get it.  Logic doesn't apply to intimate relationships.

[Batya33]

1 hour ago, boltnrun said:

Can you tolerate staying in this limbo forever?  Spending hours and hours with her every week but not being able to kiss or hold her or sleep in the same bed with her (or do you?)

Keep in mind if you do start dating someone she likely will not take kindly to you spending 8 hours with this woman instead of spending them with her.

BTW, there is no 100% guarantee of anything.  If that's what you're holding out for you will never get it.  Logic doesn't apply to intimate relationships.

But in the sense of logic there is a far greater risk of her dating other men or looking to date if you and she are not a committed couple -or even dating - than if you are.  Had my husband followed his friend's advice and said nothing to me that third time we met platonically over around 4-5 weeks -and instead left town and stayed in touch and seeing me when he visited again -chances were high I'd have met someone else and/or assumed he hadn't asked because he wasn't that into being with me.

[NighttimeNightmare]

4 hours ago, Batya33 said:

Do you really think that people who are married were in general desperate to find a partner otherwise they would be single?

What? Where did i say that?

[NighttimeNightmare]

4 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

It seems like a mental security blanket/backup plan because you're still unsure if this will become a sexual relationship.

Well, you got me there. That’s an accurate observation 
 

but also true that I’m opened to seriously meeting someone [else] if we cross paths 

[Batya33]

5 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

What? Where did i say that?

"and don’t necessarily find the idea of a legal marriage attractive for many people who engage in it. I can be single, I’m not someone who desperately seeks out a partner etc etc so we’ve found a lot of common ground there. "

[Batya33]

2 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

Well, you got me there. That’s an accurate observation 
 

but also true that I’m opened to seriously meeting someone [else] if we cross paths 

Fairly unlikely if you're spending this much time with her and this much time thinking about her.

[NighttimeNightmare]

21 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

"and don’t necessarily find the idea of a legal marriage attractive for many people who engage in it. I can be single, I’m not someone who desperately seeks out a partner etc etc so we’ve found a lot of common ground there. "

Ya that doesn’t mean that I “think that people who are married were in general desperate to find a partner otherwise they would be single” That’s a really weird leap. I was making two separate comments about myself and how I operate in direct relation to some of her own world views 

 

[NighttimeNightmare]

2 hours ago, boltnrun said:

Can you tolerate staying in this limbo forever? Spending hours and hours with her every week but not being able to kiss or hold her or sleep in the same bed with her (or do you?)

We don’t. And no I can’t tolerate the limbo much longer. That’s what I’m realizing that the very fact I was prompted to post here means something is wrong, for me, that i need to get addressed, with her.  
 

im so tired of being this close but not being allowed to express it. And the fact she actually got snarky with me the other day for not being there emotionally, I felt unfair because idk *** she wants from me. 
 

and last night this guy kept following her around for nearly an hour. And I thought she was enjoying the conversation until she told me that she kept trying to get my attention to get him away from her. Idk what that’s about, I didn’t understand why she didn’t tell him more directly that she was done talking. (I’m going to actually ask her for clarification of this cos I found it odd), but the reason I even bring this up was cause I did end it about 6x and he kept circling back and re-engaging, so once again,  it’s not like I could put my arm around her waist and say we’re together. Cos we’re not. So I stand there watching this interaction knowing she can chat up and date whoever she wants.  But yet I’m also supposed to stop that interaction? I don’t get it.  I guess I should also clarify that the man was a worker at a place I make a lot of money off of, so maybe she didn’t want to be rude. But I’m going to ask her.  
 

And batya please don’t jump in with your suspicions that she’s some “mega sexual flirt” who feeds off of this. I understand you think this but it’s not helpful 

2 hours ago, boltnrun said:

Keep in mind if you do start dating someone she likely will not take kindly to you spending 8 hours with this woman instead of spending them with her

Exactly. That’s why I think it’s beneficial for us both that we have a discussion about what this really is between us. I don’t want either of us to get hurt when new people come into the picture 

[rainbowsandroses]

NN, have you thought about waiting for the right opportunity and simply kissing her?  On lips in a romantic way?

I have to think spending so much intimate time together, that opportunity was there many times. 

Not forcing yourself, it's gotta be natural.  You're spending NYE together?  Perfect opportunity

An anecdote - I was "friends" with my first serious boyfriend before we got romantically involved.  Very similar to your sitch. 

One night we were at a club, the vibe was great, we were drinking wine, and he looked at me very tenderly and kissed me.

I kissed him back and he said "I've been wanting to do that for a whole year"!

We dated/in a relationship for four years after that night.  

Anyway, my point is, I don't think it's necessary to 'spill your feels', just move close into her and kiss her, naturally. 

However she responds, THAT is your answer. 

What do you think?