At wits end with 3yo (nearly 4) boy

[Seraphim]

3 minutes ago, breakbox90210 said:

that's what childcare are saying too, just need to grit my teeth a little longer

Really they make no connection between the punishment and what they did probably beyond 10 minutes. Everything for that age is in the now I think it’s just a hiccup. He’s anxious about his friends, leaving and having a new sibling which he perceives as taking his place. Maybe organize a few dates where you can spend the entire day just with him and not with baby. And same with dad. Dad just spends a day just with him and not baby . Reinforce that he is also loved and important.

[tattoobunnie]

Just now, Seraphim said:

Really they make no connection between the punishment and what they did probably beyond 10 minutes. Everything for that age is in the now I think it’s just a hiccup. He’s anxious about his friends, leaving and having a new sibling which he perceives as taking his place. Maybe organize a few dates where you can spend the entire day just with him and not with baby. And same with dad. Dad just spends a day just with him and not baby . Reinforce that he is also loved and important.

Yes, definitely this!  Little kiddos need special time too to feel loved. Having them "shop" pick out gifts for eachother also helps the transition too.

[Kwothe28]

8 minutes ago, breakbox90210 said:

So if 2 days isn't enough, what is? should we take literally everything off him and leave him to be bored for the day ... I give that 15 mins for any 3yo before that's an absolute car crash.

 

You are again not listening. There is no quick and easy solution to this. Again, punishment wont help because its not that efficient. Neither would you coddling him because he was "good" for 2 days.

What is the problem of actually taking him to child psychologist for an observation? Again, he exhibits very alarming behavior. You and your methods clearly dont help at all. You need professional help regarding your upbringing of him. Its not "shameful" to admit that and seek professional help. He is still a small child. Those kind of behaviors can and will be changed with professional help and you working with them on that. So you wouldnt actually have problems with him later down the line. Its a way better solution then to "haze" him and then wonder why he hasnt changed and still bullies you and others around him. He does that because he finds it "fun" and doesnt know better. Its on you to teach him to know better. And as you can see you wont do that with "hazing". Admitting your upbringing isnt doing good and seeking professional help isnt a stigma anymore. Lots of people do it for even smaller things then yours. So swallow your pride and take him for an observation before its too late.

[Cherylyn]

I agree with others regarding making an appointment with a child psychologist and monitoring his health to the best of your ability.  I agree with @Batya33 regarding exercise,  hydration,  great diet minus food coloring,  excess sugars,  refined carbohydrates,  preservatives and junk.  

I agree that a new baby in the house can either go both ways whether jealousy or doting on the baby.  Fortunately,  for my older son by 4 years,  he was the latter and not the former.   He was enamored by his baby brother so I was lucky there. 

A tip my mother gave me was for both babies and as they grew up regarding their nap times was to make sure the house was very quiet because it's beneficial for brain development and decreases risks for ADD and / or ADHD.  Their bedroom doors were closed and the house was quiet!  I realize not every child is the same.  I'm only sharing what worked for my sons.  They had very quiet (glorious) 3 hour afternoon naps. 😴  I did not have any background racket during their sleep schedules which meant no blaring TV,  vacuum cleaner,  radio,  washing machine / dryer (if too close to their bedrooms),  chatting on the phone (if nearby) or any annoying noises.  We did not have pets at the time.  As they grew up,  they concentrated very well and were not easily distracted.  (They excelled at school.)   I believe my mother's sound advice helped immensely.  I generally was not on-the-go outside the house if it coincided with their nap schedule.  They rarely slept while not at home.  I made the mistake of once being off schedule with my then 3 year old (son #1) and once home,  in the afternoon,  he had a meltdown or major temper tantrum.  We took care of errands and he missed his nap schedule.   I never did that again.  😭 🥵  As long as we had a predictable routine,  we were fine and my sons thrived.  Any other way was a disaster.  I had to stay extremely coordinated and organized to do it.  There was a lot of advanced planning and preparation when they were little and it worked.  I ran a tight ship because I had to for our survival!  It saved my sanity for years.

I was careful with what they ate and tended to avoid commercially prepared food.  My sons were healthier mentally and physically because of it.   We prevented dehydration at all costs.   I was always prepared whether at home or away regarding their nutrition and hydration.  If not at home,  their cooler was packed and in the car.  I never left home without it because heaven help me if I was ill prepared!  

Despite having two sons,  I juggled my schedule so I could devote time to son #1 while son #2 was napping if son #1 outgrew his naps eventually.  We would have art or craft time and story time and more story time in the evening after his bath.  Or, he would play on a large swing set in our back yard.  Other times,  he was enrolled in pre-school two mornings per week.  Other days consisted of park play dates with other same age children and I met wonderful mothers this way.  We had some various weekend outings with the 4 of us (husband & sons) and often times included their extremely devoted local grandparents.

Speaking of preschool,  my then 4 year old son was bullied.  His classmate had one eye because when he was a baby,  his other cancerous eye was surgically removed.  This bully often times pushed my son from behind and shoved him onto the grass where there was a protruding sprinkler head.  These pushes, shoves and attacks were unprovoked.  Another time,  he stabbed my son's eye with a plastic dinosaur tail and narrow missed blinding my son. 😡 The doctor said had the tail poked my son's eye closer to his iris,  my son would've permanently lost his vision!  The bully's mother was the pre-school class aide in my son's classroom.  The preschool director and teacher were completely dismissive regarding my pleas for removing this bully and it fell on their deaf ears.  The director called me at 9PM fearing a lawsuit.  Furious,  I called the state authorities and the state converged onto the preschool and expelled the bully.  My son had to wear an eye patch for several weeks and fortunately,  his eyesight was spared any damage.  Nonetheless,  I enrolled my son at another (great) local preschool and he finished his term there.  I never had any problems with son #2 during his preschool years.  He attended two mornings per week just like son #1.  I didn't want them in preschool too much. 

We were busy with the pool club,  park play dates,  some outings (field trips),  at home time to veg and relax and my husband watched our sons if I needed to tend to errands.  I did not drag them around on errands.  Our activities were primarily during mornings and they napped immediately after clean up and lunch.   Afternoons and evenings were always at home.  I folded laundry,  read newspapers,  library books and did quiet activities. 

We stayed home a lot and not every week was action packed nor too busy.  We had slow days,  I pushed a stroller with my 4 year old son at my side and we walked in our residential neighborhood during mornings.  We played in our back yard and I most certainly miss the good ol' days. 

I was very fortunate to be a SAHM for several years.  I wanted to stay home and watch my sons grow up.  There was no substitute for me.  No one can love and care for my boys as much as their mother.  💗

Try watching "Supernanny" on youtube or TV and see if you can learn some tips,   helpful hints and pointers.  I remember watching this British nanny,  Jo Frost who worked miracles with very unruly children.  She had a very unique approach to fix bullies before these kids escalated to become adult bullies.  She taught exasperated parents what to do.  I found this program to be very refreshingly helpful.  I must say her approach to transforming spoiled bratty kids to become well behaved kids was very clever.

I've heard some people say that certain behaviors could be genetic.  I don't know if it's true or not.

My brother-in-law (BIL) is socially disgusting with whatever he says to the point of humiliating everyone including his wife (my sister),  their children,  my husband,  sons,  me and anyone is not spared his wrath.  One of his daughters (my niece) is reminiscent of her father ever since she was 3 years old.  They're both socially awkward and inappropriate to the point of embarrassingly shameful.  Unfortunately,  BIL's boorish behavior was one of the causes of our current estrangement. 

Not all cases are hopeless though.  My next door neighbor has two sons 14 months apart and years ago,  I didn't allow my sons to be friends with her sons because they were very unruly,  bratty,  poorly behaved and very physically rough.  Fortunately,  later,  they mellowed and grew up to be good guys but in the beginning they weren't. 

[Seraphim]

It isn’t really about gritting and bearing it but making a strong connection with him . He is telling you that he feels unsafe right now. All his little friends are leaving him, and there is another little person in his place where he used to be. Make strong connections with him not that you don’t. I’m not suggesting that, but this is his perception of what is happening and be consistent in whatever you do. Being consistent is loving. Praise good things . 

[breakbox90210]

1 hour ago, Kwothe28 said:

You are again not listening. There is no quick and easy solution to this. Again, punishment wont help because its not that efficient. Neither would you coddling him because he was "good" for 2 days.

What is the problem of actually taking him to child psychologist for an observation? Again, he exhibits very alarming behavior. You and your methods clearly dont help at all. You need professional help regarding your upbringing of him. Its not "shameful" to admit that and seek professional help. He is still a small child. Those kind of behaviors can and will be changed with professional help and you working with them on that. So you wouldnt actually have problems with him later down the line. Its a way better solution then to "haze" him and then wonder why he hasnt changed and still bullies you and others around him. He does that because he finds it "fun" and doesnt know better. Its on you to teach him to know better. And as you can see you wont do that with "hazing". Admitting your upbringing isnt doing good and seeking professional help isnt a stigma anymore. Lots of people do it for even smaller things then yours. So swallow your pride and take him for an observation before its too late.

I am reading everything you are writing and querying some of your responses (which for some reason you are taking as anger?)

I never suggested there was a problem in going to a psychologist, this is something else you are assuming. I said I was looking into local services in post 6 (before you even posted). I have already mentioned to others we need help and are out of ideas, are you looking for a personalised response with this in it or something? I posted this thread 6 hours or so ago, I know you might have immediate access to these type of services, I don't. It'll be a few days turn around, so regurgitating "swallow your pride, go get help" isn't going to speed it up one bit.

You have suggested 2 days of improvement on behaviour was not enough to justify a reward (when they already have minimal toys , no TV no treats for weeks), when I asked how long, it was skirted round and amalgamated into another answer.... if you're so sure what is the wrong way, what is the correct way then?

 

[breakbox90210]

1 hour ago, Seraphim said:

It isn’t really about gritting and bearing it but making a strong connection with him . He is telling you that he feels unsafe right now. All his little friends are leaving him, and there is another little person in his place where he used to be. Make strong connections with him not that you don’t. I’m not suggesting that, but this is his perception of what is happening and be consistent in whatever you do. Being consistent is loving. Praise good things . 

that's a good insight, thank you

[breakbox90210]

2 hours ago, Cherylyn said:

I agree with others regarding making an appointment with a child psychologist and monitoring his health to the best of your ability.  I agree with @Batya33 regarding exercise,  hydration,  great diet minus food coloring,  excess sugars,  refined carbohydrates,  preservatives and junk.  

I agree that a new baby in the house can either go both ways whether jealousy or doting on the baby.  Fortunately,  for my older son by 4 years,  he was the latter and not the former.   He was enamored by his baby brother so I was lucky there. 

A tip my mother gave me was for both babies and as they grew up regarding their nap times was to make sure the house was very quiet because it's beneficial for brain development and decreases risks for ADD and / or ADHD.  Their bedroom doors were closed and the house was quiet!  I realize not every child is the same.  I'm only sharing what worked for my sons.  They had very quiet (glorious) 3 hour afternoon naps. 😴  I did not have any background racket during their sleep schedules which meant no blaring TV,  vacuum cleaner,  radio,  washing machine / dryer (if too close to their bedrooms),  chatting on the phone (if nearby) or any annoying noises.  We did not have pets at the time.  As they grew up,  they concentrated very well and were not easily distracted.  (They excelled at school.)   I believe my mother's sound advice helped immensely.  I generally was not on-the-go outside the house if it coincided with their nap schedule.  They rarely slept while not at home.  I made the mistake of once being off schedule with my then 3 year old (son #1) and once home,  in the afternoon,  he had a meltdown or major temper tantrum.  We took care of errands and he missed his nap schedule.   I never did that again.  😭 🥵  As long as we had a predictable routine,  we were fine and my sons thrived.  Any other way was a disaster.  I had to stay extremely coordinated and organized to do it.  There was a lot of advanced planning and preparation when they were little and it worked.  I ran a tight ship because I had to for our survival!  It saved my sanity for years.

I was careful with what they ate and tended to avoid commercially prepared food.  My sons were healthier mentally and physically because of it.   We prevented dehydration at all costs.   I was always prepared whether at home or away regarding their nutrition and hydration.  If not at home,  their cooler was packed and in the car.  I never left home without it because heaven help me if I was ill prepared!  

Despite having two sons,  I juggled my schedule so I could devote time to son #1 while son #2 was napping if son #1 outgrew his naps eventually.  We would have art or craft time and story time and more story time in the evening after his bath.  Or, he would play on a large swing set in our back yard.  Other times,  he was enrolled in pre-school two mornings per week.  Other days consisted of park play dates with other same age children and I met wonderful mothers this way.  We had some various weekend outings with the 4 of us (husband & sons) and often times included their extremely devoted local grandparents.

Speaking of preschool,  my then 4 year old son was bullied.  His classmate had one eye because when he was a baby,  his other cancerous eye was surgically removed.  This bully often times pushed my son from behind and shoved him onto the grass where there was a protruding sprinkler head.  These pushes, shoves and attacks were unprovoked.  Another time,  he stabbed my son's eye with a plastic dinosaur tail and narrow missed blinding my son. 😡 The doctor said had the tail poked my son's eye closer to his iris,  my son would've permanently lost his vision!  The bully's mother was the pre-school class aide in my son's classroom.  The preschool director and teacher were completely dismissive regarding my pleas for removing this bully and it fell on their deaf ears.  The director called me at 9PM fearing a lawsuit.  Furious,  I called the state authorities and the state converged onto the preschool and expelled the bully.  My son had to wear an eye patch for several weeks and fortunately,  his eyesight was spared any damage.  Nonetheless,  I enrolled my son at another (great) local preschool and he finished his term there.  I never had any problems with son #2 during his preschool years.  He attended two mornings per week just like son #1.  I didn't want them in preschool too much. 

We were busy with the pool club,  park play dates,  some outings (field trips),  at home time to veg and relax and my husband watched our sons if I needed to tend to errands.  I did not drag them around on errands.  Our activities were primarily during mornings and they napped immediately after clean up and lunch.   Afternoons and evenings were always at home.  I folded laundry,  read newspapers,  library books and did quiet activities. 

We stayed home a lot and not every week was action packed nor too busy.  We had slow days,  I pushed a stroller with my 4 year old son at my side and we walked in our residential neighborhood during mornings.  We played in our back yard and I most certainly miss the good ol' days. 

I was very fortunate to be a SAHM for several years.  I wanted to stay home and watch my sons grow up.  There was no substitute for me.  No one can love and care for my boys as much as their mother.  💗

Try watching "Supernanny" on youtube or TV and see if you can learn some tips,   helpful hints and pointers.  I remember watching this British nanny,  Jo Frost who worked miracles with very unruly children.  She had a very unique approach to fix bullies before these kids escalated to become adult bullies.  She taught exasperated parents what to do.  I found this program to be very refreshingly helpful.  I must say her approach to transforming spoiled bratty kids to become well behaved kids was very clever.

I've heard some people say that certain behaviors could be genetic.  I don't know if it's true or not.

My brother-in-law (BIL) is socially disgusting with whatever he says to the point of humiliating everyone including his wife (my sister),  their children,  my husband,  sons,  me and anyone is not spared his wrath.  One of his daughters (my niece) is reminiscent of her father ever since she was 3 years old.  They're both socially awkward and inappropriate to the point of embarrassingly shameful.  Unfortunately,  BIL's boorish behavior was one of the causes of our current estrangement. 

Not all cases are hopeless though.  My next door neighbor has two sons 14 months apart and years ago,  I didn't allow my sons to be friends with her sons because they were very unruly,  bratty,  poorly behaved and very physically rough.  Fortunately,  later,  they mellowed and grew up to be good guys but in the beginning they weren't. 

thank you for the anecdotes and suggestions, will look into the videos

[Seraphim]

Really , I think your kid is normal this is developmental age stuff . I have looked after hundreds and hundreds of kids . 

[boltnrun]

I'm going to disagree a bit. It's not normal for kids to bite and to be physically aggressive toward other children, objects and toward their parents and other adults. At least, it's not what I've encountered. I've seen unruly children, loud children, undisciplined children, but I have never personally encountered a child that exhibited the behaviors you describe. And any children at my kids' daycare, preschool or school who did were immediately removed from the presence of others and the parents were contacted.

I do feel it's a cause for concern, but since discipline and removing privileges doesn't seem to be effective I do agree with seeing the pediatrician to see what she recommends. It can't be pleasant for your child to be having these feelings. 

[Kwothe28]

32 minutes ago, breakbox90210 said:

You have suggested 2 days of improvement on behaviour was not enough to justify a reward (when they already have minimal toys , no TV no treats for weeks), when I asked how long, it was skirted round and amalgamated into another answer.... if you're so sure what is the wrong way, what is the correct way then?

I have suggested that you both see child psychologists. That is the only and correct way to go in this situation. On which you tried to push the words into my mouth how I said how 2 days of hazing isnt enough. Even though I claimed from the start that "hazing" doesnt really work and that you are not doing anything with it. Hence the need for both of you to learn something with child psychologist. Him to behave and you to learn new ways of education because yours arent really effective. As somebody who worked with kids(and still does), I can tell you that somebody who behaves like him isnt really in "phase". And that he needs serious work if you want your kid to be more then just a "problem child" who would maybe be a problem for you, for school, or even for society. And that I hope that you would trully look into the help you need and not just be offended at somebody telling you that your ways dont work. Because they dont, its the whole reason why you are here. 

And now if you would excuse me, I dont like my words getting twisted while trying to help. Goodbye. And hope you trully do get help for your kid.

[breakbox90210]

27 minutes ago, Kwothe28 said:

I have suggested that you both see child psychologists. That is the only and correct way to go in this situation. On which you tried to push the words into my mouth how I said how 2 days of hazing isnt enough. Even though I claimed from the start that "hazing" doesnt really work and that you are not doing anything with it. Hence the need for both of you to learn something with child psychologist. Him to behave and you to learn new ways of education because yours arent really effective. As somebody who worked with kids(and still does), I can tell you that somebody who behaves like him isnt really in "phase". And that he needs serious work if you want your kid to be more then just a "problem child" who would maybe be a problem for you, for school, or even for society. And that I hope that you would trully look into the help you need and not just be offended at somebody telling you that your ways dont work. Because they dont, its the whole reason why you are here. 

And now if you would excuse me, I dont like my words getting twisted while trying to help. Goodbye. And hope you trully do get help for your kid.

Not offended in the slightest, just still wondering with how you're definitely sure what we're doing wrong with no insight on what to do right, which was based on an incorrect sequence of events to begin with?

 

[Batya33]

2 hours ago, breakbox90210 said:

Not offended in the slightest, just still wondering with how you're definitely sure what we're doing wrong with no insight on what to do right, which was based on an incorrect sequence of events to begin with?

 

I wanted to add that I wouldn't assume you're doing anything wrong and/or that it is your or your husband's fault.  If a child does have some sort of diagnosis or disorder - if! - not saying he does or doesn't -that is for a developmental pediatrician to look into for example - then it's not fair to place blame on what parents are doing or not doing -that's a wrong assumption IMO

[SooSad33]

12 hours ago, breakbox90210 said:

we recognise that we want to pick our battles, so if it's been a day or two of conflict, we'll say "we just want to be friends and nice to each other" and go somewhere nice like the river or woods which he loves, but even those trips out end up in some sort of tantrum rage of something minuscule. Is so sad and frustrating to see, because when he's great, he's amazing and has loads of fun, and this behaviour just takes away any fun for him, either through time wasted in tantrums or as punishment when he gets violent (like we go home or take the toy he was violent with off him). 

 

You also need to realize his mentality.  He's still very young and he needs some decent guidance. He's pulling out of the toddler stage, right?  The world is Huge!  And can be quite overwhelming sometimes.  There's a LOT he doesn't get yet 😕 .

Maybe he will do better with a schedule? ( eg same time bed time).

And don't spoil him.  My kids got 'Saturday treats' and go to sit together & watch a movie etc.

He just needs to 'learn' about good/ bad behaviour, the results that go with it etc.  And he's got a way to go.. but it's even extra challenging when mom & dad lose their cool too 😕 .

IF he continues to display this ongoing 'frustrating freak outs', as mentioned, consider talking to your doctor, to see about possibility he may be struggling with something underlying .

Meanwhile, try to see things thru his eyes.  He's now got to share mom & dad time with a new sibling and that IS a big deal.  You all need to work on adjusting to that.  So, how about just him & dad go out together for a little 'guy time'?  Stuff like this may just benefit him and be something he needs.  Time away from what's challenging him at home and where he still gets some 'one on one' time with at least one parent. 

He may still be too young for this, but my kids had a calendar up and when they did their chores etc, they'd get a star and if they mostly did what was asked, they'd get some money ( from stars) and would get to go to the buck store to pick out a toy/ candy that they earned.  Plus it teaches them about 'helping out', etc.

Otherwise, as I said, to try & keep things on a schedule and don't spoil him as an attempt to 'make him feel better', kind of thing.  ( I mention bedtime being a schedule thing because so many times, parents don't realize that kids NEED so many hours of sleep in order to feel good & ready to go for another day. - and if they're lackign in necessary sleep, you can guarantee some moodiness)

And just try to work with him for a while longer & see if he does start to calm down from the stressors he's having to deal with in this great big world. And each kid is different, some are easy going and some are extra challenging and sadly, he cannot 'voice his issue's properly yet.

Good luck  🙂 

[Cherylyn]

I agree with @SooSad33.  There's a 4 year difference between my sons.  Son #1 had 1:1 time with me and exclusive 1:1 time with his father.  Or, fortunately, due to local grandparents,  the 3 of us would spend time together,  go on outings and made son #1 feel very special as opposed to always being lumped with his baby brother. 

We too,  had age appropriate chore charts which son #1 drew illustrations himself.  Each card had an illustration of a chore such as setting the table,  wash his tricycle,  discard his little wastebasket items,  help me fold laundry (small items),  make his bed (with my help),  help cook (safely ~ no knives, no stove),  feed his aquarium fish and he actually enjoyed his chores.  Each day had a new card flipped.  All chore cards hung on a wall hook.  He earned various privileges such as a special healthy snack treats (once a week),  30 minutes of TV (once a week),  an extra long story time,  longer 1:1 outings,  etc.  

We also taught our sons manners very early.  When we asked for something,  they weren't allowed to  give cryptic answers.  It was always,  "Yes,  please"  or "No,  thank you."  They weren't allowed to interrupt.   They weren't allowed to abruptly leave.  They had to ask permission to leave by saying,  "May I please be excused?"  After dinner,  they helped clean up with age appropriate chores.  A lot of adults whether in my house or in public,  would often compliment on how well behaved my sons were.  It wasn't difficult to discipline them early.  

Normally I didn't drag them to errands but if they shopped with me for fairly quick trips,  at stores,  they were easy to tag along. 

My sister and brother-in-law were mealy mouthed spoiled brats according to my husband.  I didn't have to hear that twice.  My husband and I were fairly strict with our boys in a good way and it has since paid off.  I wasn't about to raise a couple of monsters.  👿 😈  We taught them how to treat others with respect,  how to be well mannered and poised. 

 

[tattoobunnie]

20 hours ago, boltnrun said:

I'm going to disagree a bit. It's not normal for kids to bite and to be physically aggressive toward other children, objects and toward their parents and other adults.

It happens.  If your kid has never bitten or been bitten in daycare, then you are among the very very few.  Two boys, full time daycare for both; biting happens because they are unable to communicate big feelings.  You just address it, and give them love.  They pretty much aren't biting other kids for fun.

[Seraphim]

3 minutes ago, tattoobunnie said:

It happens.  If your kid has never bitten or been bitten in daycare, then you are among the very very few.  Two boys, full time daycare for both; biting happens because they are unable to communicate big feelings.  You just address it, and give them love.  They pretty much aren't biting other kids for fun.

My son was a biter about age 2, but he had limited language skills. It is pretty common between age 2 and four. So it is hitting and acting out . Around 3-4 they become aware of so much more but don’t completely understand. There are so many big feelings around that so acting out is very common. I have been slapped and punched in the face etc by very average developing kids . 

[Cherylyn]

I remember using a reward system with my sons.  Instead of resorting to raised voices,  tears,  punishment and reprimands,  my husband and I used rewards for good behavior instead.  Our boys learned quickly that good behavior received rewards and unacceptable behavior meant zero rewards.  It was highly effective.  They were granted more (reasonable and healthy) privileges for exemplary behavior.  They thrived on praise and recognition for very good behavior.  It made us all very happy.  🙂 It built their self confidence and gave them higher self esteem. 

[Seraphim]

Just remember a rewards system is for typically developing children it is very infective and harmful for neurodivergent children because it leaves them open to abuse by enforcing compliance for reward. Neurodiverse children have a harder time judging intentions of people and offering reward for compliance leaves them very vulnerable. 

[Cherylyn]

Positive reinforcement is always preferred and better than punishment but I agree,  as with adults,  children are not spared consequences for intolerable,  bad,  unacceptable behaviors.