Tips for Dealing with Unrealistic/Oblivious Boss(es)

[Jibralta]

48 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

My best interviewing tip which I refined over the years when the Internet arrived- come armed with 5 questions that show that you did your homework and show true interest specifically in this job.

That's the one I knew, as well. Not five questions per se, but ask questions that show you've done your research about the company you're interviewing with, and the person who is interviewing you. 

I think that "interview your interviewer" is another important rule. The recruiters gave me 10 - 15 questions that I found helpful in this respect. For example:

• What keeps you coming back to work every day?
• What does a "good job" look like to you?
• How has the firm grown/transformed over the years?
• What are the important qualities in a team?

I received a wide range of answers to the questions that I asked. It was fascinating--it definitely gave me more insight into the person who was interviewing me than previous interviews had.

[Batya33]

3 hours ago, Jibralta said:

That's the one I knew, as well. Not five questions per se, but ask questions that show you've done your research about the company you're interviewing with, and the person who is interviewing you. 

I think that "interview your interviewer" is another important rule. The recruiters gave me 10 - 15 questions that I found helpful in this respect. For example:

• What keeps you coming back to work every day?
• What does a "good job" look like to you?
• How has the firm grown/transformed over the years?
• What are the important qualities in a team?

I received a wide range of answers to the questions that I asked. It was fascinating--it definitely gave me more insight into the person who was interviewing me than previous interviews had.

I like those other than the last would feel too general to me. I would ask "describe the atmosphere here" - it's a word that wasn't stale at least back then so people actually were forthcoming!

[Jibralta]

Yeah, that is kind of a boring question, come to think of it.

My unexpected favorite was, "what does a good job look like to you?" Some people interpreted it as "what is your favorite kind of project?" Others interpreted it as, "What would cause you to tell somebody that they've done a good job?" I was always rewarded with interesting answers when I asked that question.

Then I asked the HGTV guy that question and he suddenly looked like I just dumped a bucket of cold water on him. "What do you mean? For me? For you? I don't know what you mean." A little voice in my head was sounding, abort! abort! But I couldn't. I had already committed....

Well, I didn't get that job. I guess when he asked if I had any questions, I should have asked him about his TV show? lol..... It was weird that he was interviewing me anyway. I don't think he's done many interviews in his life!

[Jibralta]

Kasey finally called this evening to do an exit interview of sorts. Overall, it was a pleasant conversation. She may be a sociopath, but she is a friendly, congenial sociopath.

She asked me when I'd decided to leave and where I was going. I told her that an old employer had reached out to me in February, and that shortly thereafter, I put my resume out and received a lot of interest. I got an offer that I couldn't refuse, so to speak.

I declined to tell her who my new employer was. She said, "We're not going to call them, haha." I was like, "I know." And then there was a bit of an awkward silence. 

She asked me why I chose to leave, and I told her that I was looking for more responsibility, I felt that I would be a better fit elsewhere, and this new place seemed more in line with my career goals. 

She asked if I had anything to say to them, if there was anything that they could be doing better. I said, "No."

There was then a really, really long pause during which my boyfriend mouthed the words "Thanks, bye!" and made a motion of hanging up the phone. But I stayed on in silence because Awkward Chicken is one of my favorite games to play.

Eventually, Kasey spoke again, asking me to write up a list of what was outstanding on different projects, etc., and discussing some changes that a client wanted.

I'd say the exit interview lasted a grand total of four minutes, and the project meeting lasted about 15 minutes.

[Jibralta]

Simon started some rumblings last night. Got my heartrate up a bit.

I just have to stay cool.... 

[boltnrun]

2 hours ago, Jibralta said:

Simon started some rumblings last night. Got my heartrate up a bit.

I just have to stay cool.... 

Yep, very soon you will never have to deal with him again.

[indea08]

15 hours ago, Jibralta said:

Kasey finally called this evening to do an exit interview of sorts. Overall, it was a pleasant conversation. She may be a sociopath, but she is a friendly, congenial sociopath.

She asked me when I'd decided to leave and where I was going. I told her that an old employer had reached out to me in February, and that shortly thereafter, I put my resume out and received a lot of interest. I got an offer that I couldn't refuse, so to speak.

I declined to tell her who my new employer was. She said, "We're not going to call them, haha." I was like, "I know." And then there was a bit of an awkward silence. 

She asked me why I chose to leave, and I told her that I was looking for more responsibility, I felt that I would be a better fit elsewhere, and this new place seemed more in line with my career goals. 

She asked if I had anything to say to them, if there was anything that they could be doing better. I said, "No."

There was then a really, really long pause during which my boyfriend mouthed the words "Thanks, bye!" and made a motion of hanging up the phone. But I stayed on in silence because Awkward Chicken is one of my favorite games to play.

Eventually, Kasey spoke again, asking me to write up a list of what was outstanding on different projects, etc., and discussing some changes that a client wanted.

I'd say the exit interview lasted a grand total of four minutes, and the project meeting lasted about 15 minutes.

Interesting. Not the reaction I expected. Probably for the best lol. I remember the day I walked out of the job that crushed my soul, and man would it have felt good to tell that idiot manager what I really thought. Oh well, she’s someone else’s problem now.

I’m so happy for you, and I really hope the job you’ve taken is the one that gives you what you need to soar to new heights.

[Jibralta]

2 hours ago, indea08 said:

Not the reaction I expected.

What reaction did you expect? Just curious. I had no idea what they would do. But inertia wasn't terribly surprising.

2 hours ago, indea08 said:

I remember the day I walked out of the job that crushed my soul, and man would it have felt good to tell that idiot manager what I really thought.

Yeah... but with these guys, it would never sink in. It would just bounce right off. They actually think they're perfect! It's crazy-making. I am literally Meg in Family Guy. Shut up, Meg! Everything I do is automatically wrong, and everything they do is automatically right. No such thing as reality.

[indea08]

2 minutes ago, Jibralta said:

What reaction did you expect? Just curious. I had no idea what they would do. But inertia wasn't terribly surprising.

Yeah... but with these guys, it would never sink in. It would just bounce right off. They actually think they're perfect! It's crazy-making. I am literally Meg in Family Guy. Shut up, Meg! Everything I do is automatically wrong, and everything they do is automatically right. No such thing as reality.

I expected toxic and petty...wasn’t sure how it’d play out but I definitely expected those two themes lol.

Telling my ex-boss off would’ve really been more for me than her. She tried to pit my teammates and myself against each other. She had a complete misunderstanding of how we really operated in our office (the corporate office for God’s sake). Any time she had an opportunity to give clear guidance and expectations, she was nowhere to be found and just assumed her minions handled it, then circled back around to let us know how we didn’t meet her expectations. She threatened my livelihood. She had no business managing anyone. It got so bad that eventually someone decided our entire team would report to her boss instead of her (omg that was a great day) and we let him know what we really thought.

I still to this day wish she knew that I think she’s an idiot.

[Jibralta]

3 minutes ago, indea08 said:

Any time she had an opportunity to give clear guidance and expectations, she was nowhere to be found and just assumed her minions handled it, then circled back around to let us know how we didn’t meet her expectations.

Kasey is the exact same way. It's astonishing to witness. 

1 minute ago, indea08 said:

I still to this day wish she knew that I think she’s an idiot.

Yeah, same.

My bosses probably know, though. But it just bounces off of them.

[Jibralta]

5 minutes ago, indea08 said:

I expected toxic and petty...wasn’t sure how it’d play out but I definitely expected those two themes lol.

There's still time for that. It'll be coming from Simon, though. 

[Jibralta]

We have a pretty large TV--65". It's my boyfriend's doing. It's hooked up to our shared computer, and when I'm on this site, I'm usually using that gigantic screen. 

He got it when 4K HD technology was just coming out. But after a couple of years, the screen started to burn out a bit. It just became super blue and had blotches. He's been wanting to get a new TV since June. 

We finally ordered a really dope OLED one last week, and it arrived on Saturday. We split the cost. My boyfriend elected to set it up himself instead of have the delivery people do it, I guess because of all the crap we have hooked up to it. 

Well, disaster struck. My boyfriend removed the stand from the box and placed it on the floor in front of the TV (which remained in the box). At a moment when neither one of us was near the TV, the TV suddenly tipped forward and CRACK! the screen hit the stand. Apparently, the stand had been counterbalancing the TV.

The big, beautiful, expensive TV was instantly destroyed. My boyfriend was PISSED. He screamed SHT! or FCK! really loud. I felt so bad.

After initial moments of panic, we remembered that we had bought the warranty. Within a couple minutes, he confirmed that it covered full replacement for any reason.

He called customer service to have the damaged TV picked up, and to order a replacement. This time, he agreed to let the delivery guys set it up lol. But we were going to have to wait an indeterminate amount of time to get a new TV.

The wait was the most difficult thing for my boyfriend to deal with (besides the wastefulness of destroying a perfectly good TV). What made it particularly difficult for him was that the cadaver of the destroyed TV sat in its huge box in our living room until the new TV was delivered and installed.

So close, yet so far....

I was not very bothered by the situation. It felt strangely familiar to me.... almost as though I'd grown accustomed to waiting for something tantalizing, something that I wanted desperately.... something that was Just. Out. Of. My. Reach....

Something like the promise of a new job.... and an end to a painful situation...

So, I said to my boyfriend, "I can handle this. This is old hat. It's just a microcosm of my life for the past 2+ months."

He did not appreciate that.

[Jibralta]

Part of me wants to continue the timeline I posted on April 2, for the sake of thoroughness. But I just can't find the motivation. I'm too.... checked out. That's probably a good thing. 

But I also still have a lot to say. I guess I'd better do a partial summary, because as I'm writing this, I need some way to keep track of things:

• Job#1: (a.k.a. "Bill") He was pretty miffed when I took the position with Job#5. But, I waited for him for over two months, and he never made me an offer, not even after I told him about the offer I got from Job#5.
• Job#2: Pursued other candidates
• Job#3: Sent offer after I notified them that I got an offer from Job#5. It was too low, and the benefits were not great. I declined.
• Job#4: Matched Job#5's job offer, and I accepted a position with them.
• Job#5: First job offer I received. Great offer. I declined.
• Job#6: I cancelled my second interview & CAD test with them after receiving job offers from three other companies
• Job#7: Pursued other candidates

Last weekend was tough. My mind was racing. I was so sure that I would accept Job#5, although I wasn't totally devoid of misgivings. Literally every job so far has required at least two interviews, and some even required a test of sorts. Job#5 was ready to hire me after one interview, no test, and no reference check. It was just so fast. 

Also, the guy who interviewed me randomly informed me that they didn't do mass hirings and mass layoffs (something that architecture companies have become notorious for). I hadn't asked about mass hirings/layoffs; he just volunteered that information... that sort of thing always comes off as highly suspect.

I checked their website and there it was, plain as day: they had 5 open job postings--that's a lot. They obviously were doing a mass hiring... It wasn't a complete turn off; the salary was good enough that I was willing to risk a future layoff. But the whole situation raised a worm of doubt in my mind.

I texted a friend of mine who used to work there, and his review of the firm was largely positive. But he didn't have a lot of information on the specific people that I'd be working for. 

Anyway, onto the other prospects....

I wasn't surprised when Job#3 told me they would sending me an offer on Monday. I felt that my second interview with them had gone very well. I'd actually expected an offer from them on Wednesday or Thursday! 

But I was very surprised (and actually a little dismayed) that Job#4 agreed to move my second interview up to Monday evening from Thursday. I was surprised because Job#4 is a design-oriented company and I'm very focused on technical these days. My reason for feeling dismay was a little more complicated. At the second interview, I would have to present a solution to a design problem that they'd given me. I wasn't thrilled about that in the first place, but now I had to rush to get it done over the weekend! They also asked me for a list of references that they could call on Monday morning.

My boyfriend was like, "Why are you even doing this? You got a great offer from Job#5 that you're going to take." I couldn't give him a good answer. Why was I doing this? I hadn't been able to get a good read on the owner of Job#4 during my first interview with her. She said that I didn't have the amount of experience that they were looking for, but that she did appreciate my passion. She said that they could always work with someone who had passion. That was nice, but it didn't sound like "You're in!!" to me. It was more like a big, fat MAYBE, BUT PROBABLY NOT.

So why was I busting my ass on a design problem when they'd probably just let me down gently at the end? I don't know. I just wanted to dot all of my i's and cross all of my t's. I said to my boyfriend, "I just have to do the thing until the thing is done."

So, I em effed my way through the weekend, and on Monday evening, I presented my design to the owners of Job#4. After the presentation, they were very pleasant but we sort of struggled for discussion. Eventually, one of the owners said, "So, do you have any questions for us?" And I took out my handy-dandy list of interview questions and got to work. One of the things that I was really interested in was how they ended up going into business for themselves. It's something that I'd eventually like to do. So, they explained, and pretty soon the three of us were having a pleasant conversation/interview.

About 45 minutes in, one of the owners turned to me and said, "Well, there's no easy way to say this, so I'm just going to come out and say it: If the offers were equal, would you rather work for Job#5 or for us?"

I was like, "I have no idea! I've never worked for either of you. I don't even know how to compare your positives and negatives, because they're not in the same categories. Except for your benefits--you guys have really good benefits." 

The other owner said, "Oh, thank you. We think that's really important."

I said, "Well, it's true. And it's good. You don't see that a lot in this industry."

The other owner said something about apples and oranges. Then she started selling their firm to me, telling me that I'd get a wider range of experience with them; their projects were more diverse and interesting; Job#5 only specialized in a certain type of project, but Job#4 did all sorts of things.... I nodded and made the appropriate responses, but I barely heard her spiel. My head was still spinning from her question, and I still had images of apples and oranges dancing around in my head. I realized I might get another offer. But would it be equal, or would they rely on their better benefits? What would I tell the recruiter for the other job? I thought I'd made my decision already!! Stress!! 

Then one of them asked me what I wanted from my career. That was interesting, because earlier that day, not long before my interview, the answer to that question had come to me while I was in the shower! After a brief struggle for the correct verb, I responded that my ultimate goal was to learn how to deliver projects. They liked that.

The interview and subsequent tour took about an hour and 45 minutes. I was exhausted and overwhelmed when I got home. I had promised to call the recruiter for Job#5. I had to put off the people from Job#3 for a day... I had to figure out what to do about my CAD test for Job#6.... My boyfriend was talking to me and I couldn't focus on what he was saying; my head was spinning. Then the office manager for Job#4 called me an offered me the job. I thought my head was going to explode. I told her that I had to think about it.

I knew that Job#4 had been systematically calling my references throughout the day because I still talk to those people, and they told me so (I have a funny story about that actually, but I'll tell it later. Maybe. lol.). I thought about the fact that Job#5 didn't do a second interview and practically hired me the day after my first interview. I thought about how Job#4 required me to solve and present a design problem, how they'd blocked out time to follow up on my references.... I thought about how nice the people at Job#4 were, the owners and the office manager, how enthusiastic they were, and how they seemed to really want me there. 

Then I thought about the recruiter for Job#5. I know this is stupid, but I was her first assignment. I wanted it to be a success for her. I worried about that a bit, but it didn't stop me from calling the office manager back and accepting the offer. She was so happy! And that made me feel happy.

Soon after, the office manager sent me written confirmation of our discussion (but not the offer letter--that was coming on Wednesday). The confirmation said, "We are certain you will thrive at Job#4 while being a valuable member of our team. Owner 1 and Owner 2 are looking forward to mentoring you to support your success in delivering projects and growing as an architect." I thought it was really nice that they used the same word, deliver.

Almost immediately thereafter, I emailed the recruiter and gave her the bad news. The next morning, the recruiter's supervisor called me and tried to entice me into accepting Job#5 with a $5K signing bonus. I declined. 

I spent Tuesday and half of Wednesday in a state of semi-stress because 1) I'd put my two-weeks notice in at my job without accepting an offer, and 2) I'd turned down a really good written offer for a verbal offer that I only had written confirmation of. So, I had to delay in rejecting the offer from Job#3 as a fallback plan. And I reminded myself that Bill was about to get that project he was waiting for.... Fortunately, the written offer for Job#4 did come through as promised. I signed it, and the deal is done. 

One other thing.... I have a former coworker, Eddie, who is about 75 years old. He knows a lot of architects, so I mentioned Job#5 and Job #4 to him. Eddie poo-pooed both companies, lol. He said Job#5 was just like my previous employer, but bigger. And his main complaint against Job#4 was that it was "woman-owned." LOL. He really said that. Multiple times 😂. Like the statement is its own explanation. These guys all like to say that they're not sexist, but they really are. They literally don't hear the words that come out of their mouths.

Anyway, Eddie's a dear, sweet man, but he talks a lot of sht. I take everything he says with a grain of sand. 

[boltnrun]

 I would be a bit miffed that Bill expected you to continue to wait around working at a job he knows you're not happy with.  How long did he expect you to wait?

I can understand why things never worked out with Bill.  He seems to talk a lot but not deliver an actual offer.

Congrats on the new job!

[Jibralta]

3 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

 I would be a bit miffed that Bill expected you to continue to wait around working at a job he knows you're not happy with.  How long did he expect you to wait?

I know. Bill's reaction is a whole 'nother story that I'll tell one day. But he came around.

My boyfriend was actually pretty miffed at Bill, because I had been totally forthcoming with him about everything I was thinking and doing. It's not like I blindsided him. I literally told him that I was up to my ears in interviews only two days before I got the first offer.

[dias]

Many miffed people...!

[catfeeder]

So glad to hear that you ended up with the thorough and careful people rather than the place that didn't even vet you while trying to hire 5 others. That DOES sound like the place you're leaving!

Bigger congrAts than the first!

Thrilled for you!
Cat

[Jibralta]

15 hours ago, dias said:

Many miffed people...!

I hope not! Ugh..

13 hours ago, catfeeder said:

So glad to hear that you ended up with the thorough and careful people rather than the place that didn't even vet you while trying to hire 5 others.

Yeah, the lack of due diligence and all of those other open positions at Job#5 never quite sat right with me. At the same time, I was looking at Job#4 with its second interview, its design test, and its thorough investigation of my references like, Really? Is all of this necessary?

Now that I think of it, none of the other companies that I've worked for have vetted me so thoroughly. And I've actually complained about this in the past, so it's ironic that I would have a moment of internal rebellion when it finally did happen.

When all was said and done, that vetting is what helped me make my decision. Job#4 took the trouble to get to know me. That showed me that they cared about their office environment, and view its health as integral to the success of their company (which it is, in my opinion). Most likely, employees aren't merely beasts of burden to them.

I can picture what would have happened at Job#5: Five or six complete unknowns would have been released into the office at the same time. Chaos. I'm done with absentee owners.

Up until my second interview with Job#4, I felt very unsettled about making a decision. Logic pointed to Job#5, and I planned to choose Job#5. But I felt weird about saying "no" to Job#3. I really felt directionless, like I was stabbing around in the dark. And I know it shouldn't have mattered, but I had anxiety about Bill, as well.

After my second interview with Job#4 and the subsequent offer, all of the tumblers clicked into place in my mind. Job#3 was an easy "no." Job#5 was only a slightly more difficult "no." I even felt better about Bill.

With Job#4, I finally felt that "pull" that I've felt in the past. The current is taking me somewhere. Now, maybe it's just going to smash me up against some rocks (again!), but we're still moving in a forward direction lol.

[catfeeder]

11 hours ago, Jibralta said:

After my second interview with Job#4 and the subsequent offer, all of the tumblers clicked into place in my mind. Job#3 was an easy "no." Job#5 was only a slightly more difficult "no." I even felt better about Bill.

With Job#4, I finally felt that "pull" that I've felt in the past. The current is taking me somewhere. Now, maybe it's just going to smash me up against some rocks (again!), but we're still moving in a forward direction lol.

Yay, you! What was it about #3 that was a 'no'?

And yes, you may have dodged a bullet with #5. If they aren't vetting you, what does that tell you about who else you'd be dealing with? Not to mention the corners they might be cutting on their projects...

I can appreciate the wish to work with Bill, and who knows whether that may end up happening someday. However, the guy needs to get past the idea that you'd languish in a bad place waiting for him to get his projects together. That's on him, not you. 

So thrilled for you, and I hope this week brings you some ease and peace. If not, push the drama back where it belongs--off of your wave!

(((BIG HUG))),
Cat

[Hollyj]

When do you tell Simon and when do you start the new job??   

[Jibralta]

10 hours ago, catfeeder said:

What was it about #3 that was a 'no'?

Mostly the salary and the benefits. The salary was a lot lower than the other offers, the benefits weren't as good (and they were a lot more expensive!), and the company only had seven paid holidays. Also, I'm pretty sure (but can't be certain) that Job#3 offered me less than what I actually asked for (this is why I wish I had kept better track of what I was saying to people when they asked me what I was looking for in terms of salary).

There were a lot of things I liked about Job#3, like the owner's direct involvement in construction details and code review, and the opportunity for me to do construction administration (which I love). But there were also red flags. A big one was the fact that Job#3 had a plethora of negative reviews on Google. Based on the number and content of the reviews, I'm pretty sure they were phony. But it's still weird that someone obviously went out of their way to attack them like that.

During my second interview with Job#3, I asked the office manager to tell me about how their company changed over time. The company has supposedly been in business for 24 years, so there had to be a history. The office manager said, "Well that's an interesting story..." and then proceeded to not really answer my question. It was a little weird.

Another thing, they had five employees and all of them had been hired within the last 12-18 months. Plus, the owner really seemed to not want to personally do the construction administration on this one job that he was specifically hiring for.... I think that something ugly happened in the company's recent future. 

Jeez, I guess it was more than just the benefits and the salary.... But you know, I would have jumped at it, if it had been the only offer. I was that desperate to get out of my current job.

[Jibralta]

4 hours ago, Hollyj said:

When do you tell Simon and when do you start the new job??   

I gave my notice to those effers on April 12! This is my last week!!

😁😁😁😁😁

I start the new job on May 3.

[Hollyj]

3 hours ago, Jibralta said:

I gave my notice to those effers on April 12! This is my last week!!

😁😁😁😁😁

I start the new job on May 3.

Did I miss it?  What did Simon say?

[Jibralta]

38 minutes ago, Hollyj said:

Did I miss it?  What did Simon say?

Yep. I put in my notice on April 12, 7:00AM on the dot. 

On 4/12/2021 at 8:33 PM, Jibralta said:

True to form, Kasey responded with "Confirmed. We would like to discuss more with you as well and plan next steps." Then radio silence for the rest of the day. Totally unsurprising. And totally welcome!

 She finally called on Wednesday the 14th to discuss:

On 4/14/2021 at 6:50 PM, Jibralta said:

Kasey finally called this evening to do an exit interview of sorts. Overall, it was a pleasant conversation. She may be a sociopath, but she is a friendly, congenial sociopath.

She asked me when I'd decided to leave and where I was going. I told her that an old employer had reached out to me in February, and that shortly thereafter, I put my resume out and received a lot of interest. I got an offer that I couldn't refuse, so to speak.

I declined to tell her who my new employer was. She said, "We're not going to call them, haha." I was like, "I know." And then there was a bit of an awkward silence. 

She asked me why I chose to leave, and I told her that I was looking for more responsibility, I felt that I would be a better fit elsewhere, and this new place seemed more in line with my career goals. 

She asked if I had anything to say to them, if there was anything that they could be doing better. I said, "No."

There was then a really, really long pause during which my boyfriend mouthed the words "Thanks, bye!" and made a motion of hanging up the phone. But I stayed on in silence because Awkward Chicken is one of my favorite games to play.

Eventually, Kasey spoke again, asking me to write up a list of what was outstanding on different projects, etc., and discussing some changes that a client wanted.

I'd say the exit interview lasted a grand total of four minutes, and the project meeting lasted about 15 minutes.

Simon hasn't done much of anything except to cause a little bit of a ruckus with the grading & foundation on one of the projects I am working on. He's probably pouting. And he's only causing himself and everyone else problems with that project--my solution was so much simpler but he's the kind to cut off his nose to spite his own face. Oh well, not my problem anymore!

[Jibralta]

Today is my last day of work.